What next

[danatkins]

Looking to squeeze some more accuracy out of my 6.5 savage/ Columbia River barrel.
Trying to figure out where I can best spend my time and money
Using hornady brass (soon to be peterson hopefully) universal decapping die, resized without expander ball, then mandrel, powder dispensed with frankford arsenal intellidropper, seated with hornady die with micrometer seating. Primed with rcbs universal.

So would money be better spent saving up a few bucks and getting a cps or new dies and an ec tuner?

 

[Bigfatcock]

Get a comparator.

 

[Rocketmandb]

The most important change I made to my reloading process was for seating, getting an arbor press with a force gauge and LE Wilson seating dies. I've always considered neck tension, or more appropriately, the consistency of neck tension, to be one of the things that can help (or hurt) the most. I did a number of experiments with seating on my arbor press and found a definite correlation between seating force consistency as measured on the arbor press and muzzle velocity SD/ES of the fired rounds.

To be clear, an arbor press with a force gauge will not necessarily get you better SDs in itself, but rather it will allow you to measure and hone your process - as well as to cull individual rounds that may be out of whack.

 

[danatkins]

Get a comparator.

Got one

 

[danatkins]

The most important change I made to my reloading process was for seating, getting an arbor press with a force gauge and LE Wilson seating dies. I've always considered neck tension, or more appropriately, the consistency of neck tension, to be one of the things that can help (or hurt) the most. I did a number of experiments with seating on my arbor press and found a definite correlation between seating force consistency as measured on the arbor press and muzzle velocity SD/ES of the fired rounds.

To be clear, an arbor press with a force gauge will not necessarily get you better SDs in itself, but rather it will allow you to measure and hone your process - as well as to cull individual rounds that may be out of whack.

I'm thinking about a redding seater. I'm getting 1/2 to 3/4 moa now just trying to get 1/2 or under consistently

 

[ma smith]

All these replies are hinting
you to be able to measure
stuff to check your process

 

[nn8734]

Trying to figure out where I can best spend my time and money

Shoot more often and take classes.

 

[DMP]

Annealing cut SD down and helped consistency more than any one step I made.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'm thinking about a redding seater. I'm getting 1/2 to 3/4 moa now just trying to get 1/2 or under consistently

Standard seating dies that go into your reloading press and dies like the LE Wilson seaters used with an arbor press are fundamentally different things. Do a search for the K&M arbor press and you'll see the difference. The main thing the arbor press does for you is to measure the seating force of each bullet.

 

[Choid]

All these replies are hinting
you to be able to measure
stuff to check your process

If you measure, they will come. Every time a new measuring too comes on the scene, the girls get giddy. They don't necessarily get better ammo. Amazingly, when people work on their fundamentals and shoot a lot, they get better ammo.

 

[hafejd30]

I’d chime in with what are the other components? Specifically what bullet are you running

My 260 (savage action and CBI barrel runs the following with great precision)

Lapua brass
142 SMK
CCI BR2 or 200
H4350

Reload process

- Anneal
- Size (Lee collet/Redding body die as needed with .002” shoulder bump)
- Trim cases
- debur/brush neck/primer pocket
- prime with rcbs universal hand primer
- Powder (rcbs chargemaster)
- Seat bullet .010” off lands with Redding competition seater

Resulting in .0015” neck tension. And 95% of rounds under .002 concentricity

That’s the reload process. Now a tack driving gun will only shoot so well when other things come into play, such as

- Your ability to shoot
- The stock (flexing forend, bedding etc)
- Your rest (bipod/bags)
- Barrel potential
Etc

 

[mtang45]

You cannot get a more consistent, straight bullet seating than with an L.E. Wilson seater die IMHO

 

[Choid]

How far are you shooting?

 

[Rocketmandb]

You cannot get a more consistent, straight bullet seating than with an L.E. Wilson seater die IMHO

My biggest issue with my new 37XC build is that I don't have a solution for seating that matches what I get with all my LE Wilson seaters. Their blank isn't tall enough.

 

[Choid]

You cannot get a more consistent, straight bullet seating than with an L.E. Wilson seater die IMHO

I did an experiment recently with runout, because I think it is basically bullshit when it comes to ammo, at least within the parameters of any normal reloading process. I loaded ten rounds on my Dillon 550 using a Forster micrometer die. For five rounds, I seated them very carefully. For the next five rounds I "missed" the die, and had the bullet tip outside the die with slight pressure (if you've been there you know) and then reset the bullet straight and seated. To my surprise, both groups had less than .001 runout when measured on an Accuracy One gauge. They shot the same too.

It was not a very well controlled experiment, but it was what it was. I can can see using an arbor press to measure neck tension, which I think actually matters more than super tightly controlled powder charging, but I think you'd be better off trying a few different mandrel diameters and measuring the results than you would measuring seating pressure. After all, we shoot targets, not neck tension or whatever, so measure what matters.

 

[danatkins]

Other components are cci standard primers, h4350 and 140eldm. 42.2 grains and 2.234 bto

Haven't started annealing yet got no place in the current house I can set one up.
Distance at my parents place is only out to 400 if I really push but where I'm hoping to hunt next fall is 600. Also do a yearly match out to a mile. I want to take a class more than anything but schedule just doesn't allow it for probably 3 or 4 more years. I'm just reading our gospel (Frank's book), listening to podcast, reading stuff on here and working on stuff the best I can with the time and money can scrape away from work and family.

 

[danatkins]

I did an experiment recently with runout, because I think it is basically bullshit when it comes to ammo, at least within the parameters of any normal reloading process. I loaded ten rounds on my Dillon 550 using a Forster micrometer die. For five rounds, I seated them very carefully. For the next five rounds I "missed" the die, and had the bullet tip outside the die with slight pressure (if you've been there you know) and then reset the bullet straight and seated. To my surprise, both groups had less than .001 runout when measured on an Accuracy One gauge. They shot the same too.

It was not a very well controlled experiment, but it was what it was. I can can see using an arbor press to measure neck tension, which I think actually matters more than super tightly controlled powder charging, but I think you'd be better off trying a few different mandrel diameters and measuring the results than you would measuring seating pressure. After all, we shoot targets, not neck tension or whatever, so measure what matters.

I've not used an arbor press so I can't weight but I'd like to see someone load up 3 sets of 5 rounds one on a regular hornady with the micrometer seater, one on something like a redding or whidden die that has the sleeve and one with the Wilson setup. Then see how they each shoot

 

[mtang45]

.... but I think you'd be better off trying a few different mandrel diameters and measuring the results than you would measuring seating pressure. After all, we shoot targets, not neck tension or whatever, so measure what matters.

We don't shoot mandrels either

 

[Choid]

We don't shoot mandrels either

Well, that is true. Excellent point. But I think you catch my drift in that shooting with ammo from a few mandrel sizes is going to be more instructive, most likely.

 

[mtang45]

I've not used an arbor press so I can't weight but I'd like to see someone load up 3 sets of 5 rounds one on a regular hornady with the micrometer seater, one on something like a redding or whidden die that has the sleeve and one with the Wilson setup. Then see how they each shoot

If you examine a LE Wilson die and the mechanics involved in seating, I think its pretty apparent that the bullet can go no other way but straight in, while the case is secured. All the other brands have sliding sleeves or other doo-dad to keep the case and bullet aligned while seating. Some work and are consistent, others not so much. The Wilson is just simple and works.

I shoot about 17-18 different calibers and have tried Redding, Forster, RCBS and Hornady. Ended up selling all of them and went with LE Wilson across the board.

 

[danatkins]

Watched a video on ultimate reloader using the le wilson looks like a good idea.

 

[Choid]

If you examine a LE Wilson die and the mechanics involved in seating, I think its pretty apparent that the bullet can go no other way but straight in, while the case is secured. All the other brands have sliding sleeves or other doo-dad to keep the case and bullet aligned while seating. Some work and are consistent, others not so much. The Wilson is just simple and works.

I shoot about 17-18 different calibers and have tried Redding, Forster, RCBS and Hornady. Ended up selling all of them and went with LE Wilson across the board.

First of all, runout probably doesn't matter, and if it does, it's not at a distance of 400 yards where you would see it. Moreover, it probably matters most in snub nosed revolvers where twist rate<barrel length, not in a 24" 8 twist where the bullet has had a lot of room to run.

Second of all, here. German Salazar found that seater induced runout was substantially lower on a Redding seater than on a Wilson, and the Wilson was actually closer to RCBS than it was to Redding.

 

[mtang45]

Well, that is true. Excellent point. But I think you catch my drift in that shooting with ammo from a few mandrel sizes is going to be more instructive, most likely.

I agree with you. Ideally you can have different mandrels to get the nest neck tension for the down range result and use an arbor press with force gage to detect any cases that might be different in some regard and have a much tighter or looser neck tension and then cull them and use for sighters or foulers.

 

[Choid]

Just FWIW, from my own testing the SAC seating die, which isn't even cartridge (or caliber) specific, and has no floating sleeve, delivers the smallest degree of seater induced runout. I have also heard that the Micron threaded seating dies from Bullet Central are great, but I don't have the patience! Their sizers are absolutely the biggest pillowy tits of sizing dies in the land.

 

[danatkins]

First of all, runout probably doesn't matter, and if it does, it's not at a distance of 400 yards where you would see it. Moreover, it probably matters most in snub nosed revolvers where twist rate<barrel length, not in a 24" 8 twist where the bullet has had a lot of room to run.

Second of all, here. German Salazar found that seater induced runout was substantially lower on a Redding seater than on a Wilson, and the Wilson was actually closer to RCBS than it was to Redding.

So my choice of redding die would be okay.
I just see these groups that some people post and it blows my mind

 

[Bigfatcock]

Vickermann inline seating dies do well too.

 

[Choid]

So my choice of redding die would be okay.
I just see these groups that some people post and it blows my mind

Redding are fine. I think you are likely to induce more runout in sizing than in seating in general.

 

[mtang45]

First of all, runout probably doesn't matter, and if it does, it's not at a distance of 400 yards where you would see it. Moreover, it probably matters most in snub nosed revolvers where twist rate<barrel length, not in a 24" 8 twist where the bullet has had a lot of room to run.

Second of all, here. German Salazar found that seater induced runout was substantially lower on a Redding seater than on a Wilson, and the Wilson was actually closer to RCBS than it was to Redding.

Oh noooo.... not another runout does/doesn't matter thread. Hard to argue with German Salazar however his test was with one die from each manufacturer and does not account for variation from one die to the next from the same manufacturer. I've had dies from one manufacturer (no names here) that were excellent and others that were better suited to be a paper weight.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Not to be a smart ass, but could it be you that is the weak link? Maybe try another bullet besides the ELD-M.

Just Sayin.

 

[nn8734]

Not to be a smart ass, but could it be you that is the weak link? Maybe try another bullet besides the ELD-M.

Just Sayin.

Of course it is, and that’s assuming he’s a capable shooter…Of all my years reloading and shooting factory ammo, i was almost always the weakest link, not the system or ammo. OP is iching to burn money on shit that doesn’t matter. Most cant outshoot their current reloads’ potential on any given day.

Too many people are fixated on group size (dick measurement and all); I moved away from shooting groups to doing dot drills (3x2) at 100m. Only time I actually shoot groups is when running an OCW.

 

[mtang45]

.....; I moved away from shooting groups to doing dot drills (3x2) at 100m. Only time I actually shoot groups is when running an OCW.

Best suggestion in this thread.

 

[danatkins]

Not to be a smart ass, but could it be you that is the weak link? Maybe try another bullet besides the ELD-M.

Just Sayin.

Switched from regular bthp and groups shrunk from .75 to a hair and I mean a hair over .5 so yeah not my first load out of this rifle. Load shoots 1.532" at 200 and that was me screwing up 2 shots the other 3 where touching.

Too many people are fixated on group size (dick measurement and all); I moved away from shooting groups to doing dot drills (3x2) at 100m. Only time I actually shoot groups is when running an OCW.

I know what dot drills are but what do you mean 3x2? Most of the time I shoot the Kraft drill and Kyl racks (my weakness in matches) but I always end and begine with a group just to kind of get in the motion of things unless I'm doing the kraft drill then I shoot it cold. As I stated just looking to ring a little more accuracy out.

 

[Shoots 700's]

1/2 moa for a savage is good, are you using a rear bag, bipod? Factory trigger, lots of variables, it could be you need time practicing the fundamentals.

 

[nn8734]

Switched from regular bthp and groups shrunk from .75 to a hair and I mean a hair over .5 so yeah not my first load out of this rifle. Load shoots 1.532" at 200 and that was me screwing up 2 shots the other 3 where touching.


I know what dot drills are but what do you mean 3x2? Most of the time I shoot the Kraft drill and Kyl racks (my weakness in matches) but I always end and begine with a group just to kind of get in the motion of things unless I'm doing the kraft drill then I shoot it cold. As I stated just looking to ring a little more accuracy out.

Two rows of three 1” pasties. Shoot deliberately then under time. Start at 100 and them move to 300. Spend more time on Kyl racks if that’s your weakness. Shortening your mean error radius while refining your accuracy will do much more less than blowing your hard earned money on shit you may or may not need. A “better die” is going to mean shit if you’re shooting under time in a comp but good muscle memory will. Cant buy that in the reloading isle.

Id want to lnow for sure the juice was worth the squeeze before i shell out the coin for gee-wiz reloading equipment.

JMO.

 

[danatkins]

1/2 moa for a savage is good, are you using a rear bag, bipod? Factory trigger, lots of variables, it could be you need time practicing the fundamentals.

Factory trigger. Waiting on triggertech to release one should be first quarter this year. After feeling the target accutrigger on my buddy's b22 I might forgo the wait and try to grab one of them
Xwing rear bag and atlas bipod. Aftermarket barrel

 

[huntnh]

Get good brass Lapua or alpha to start

 

[danatkins]

If they ever come back in stock. Found peterson

 

[acudaowner]

you can play with almost all of it to pull as much as you can out of it maybe you'll get different results than me I in the end found a round that shot good at a length I can chamber using 7 different powder using less that 42 gr of powder in some cases much less to get in or around the same speed all shooting better than me at any given day and I am happy not to keep screwing around with it I thought playing with primers could be fun but why I am not a 5 shot one hole shooter and do I really need to do that just to spank steel to me it nope so less work more fun at the range = a happy me 1k is about as far at a range as i have available to me so I don't kneed blazing speed last weekend it was poring rain and I has sunshine and rainbows so life is good . best of luck if you decide to play with the length , neck tension , primers , brass what ever you do please write a post on what you found , liked and disliked other than the lack of primers .

 

[danatkins]

I can't go any longer than I am now. I've shot bthp, atip, accubond, gmx and the eldm these have been the best shooters so far. The accubond shoot well enough for animal so I'm not gonna mess with that load

 

[danatkins]

When changing brass would .5 grains be enough of a back down in charge weight?

 

[Big Timber]

When changing brass would .5 grains be enough of a back down in charge weight?

When I switched from hornady brass to lapua brass, I had to back off a full grain to get the same fps., but this was in 6 creedmoor.

 

[danatkins]

This is 6.5. A full grain dang didn't think it would be that much difference. How far did you drop down initially?

 

[Big Timber]

I dropped a half grain to start

 

[danatkins]

Okay I'll probably just drop a grain an half and load one at each going up .2 check for pressures I know some people are running 43 in lapua cases so my load should be okay but we'll see. Gotta find them first

 

[rottenruger]

Annealing cut SD down and helped consistency more than any one step I made.

How often do you anneal? I have the Giraud Annealer but only use it every 5-6 reloads even though I've heard it suggested to anneal every time.

My brass seems to last forever. I don't max the charges at all. I probably should Chrono more often to check my SD and ES and all......

I shoot the RPR in 6.5 CM and 338 Lapua, both with Hornady ELD MATCH bullets and whatever powders I can get, like Varget, Superperformance......

Mostly I just have fun, whether reloading or shooting.

 

[rottenruger]

Standard seating dies that go into your reloading press and dies like the LE Wilson seaters used with an arbor press are fundamentally different things. Do a search for the K&M arbor press and you'll see the difference. The main thing the arbor press does for you is to measure the seating force of each bullet.

Help me understand, pls. If you get variations in the seating force, do you segregate the cartridges into groups of similar forces, or what? Or do you use the arbor press to ensure a similar seating force each time? Thanks!

 

[danatkins]

Help me understand, pls. If you get variations in the seating force, do you segregate the cartridges into groups of similar forces, or what? Or do you use the arbor press to ensure a similar seating force each time? Thanks!

I watched a video from Gavin yesterday and he was getting very consistent force with each different mandrel. But if you get a big spike I would say segregate it for a fouling shot

 

[Rocketmandb]

Help me understand, pls. If you get variations in the seating force, do you segregate the cartridges into groups of similar forces, or what? Or do you use the arbor press to ensure a similar seating force each time? Thanks!

I've got a thread going where I measured the seating force under different conditions. As I mentioned, there is a correlation between seating force consistency and ES/SD.

Right now, with 6 BRA using Lapua brass, when I use a mandrel and graphite lube in the necks, I'm getting everything falling within about a 5 lbs range (roughly 20-25 lbs). Nothing gets set aside. This process/rifle usually nets me somewhere in the mid-4s for SD

With my 300 PRC, I'm using ADG brass. Before I neck turned a bunch of cases, I was getting typically 40-50 lbs. About 1 out of 10 would fall outside that range (usually high) and I'd mark those with a Sharpie and use them to warm the barrel. Neck turning got me slightly better results, but not much. I usually set aside 2 or 3 out of 50. Excluding those rounds, I'm typically in the mid-6s for SD with this rifle.

Today I got my shipment of Lapua for my 300 PRC and I just finished all the initial prep. I'm too tired to load tonight, so will do so tomorrow - I'm very interested to see how it compares to my ADG from a seating force perspective.

Link to thread with my mandrel data:

Mandrel Musings

When I first got my K&M arbor press for seating, I was somewhat surprised at the spread of the values of force required to seat bullets. Knowing that neck tension plays a significant role in ES/SD, I started doing various things to try to bring seating force in line. I had been doing most my...

www.snipershide.com

 

[DMP]

How often do you anneal? I have the Giraud Annealer but only use it every 5-6 reloads even though I've heard it suggested to anneal every time.

My brass seems to last forever. I don't max the charges at all. I probably should Chrono more often to check my SD and ES and all......

I shoot the RPR in 6.5 CM and 338 Lapua, both with Hornady ELD MATCH bullets and whatever powders I can get, like Varget, Superperformance......

Mostly I just have fun, whether reloading or shooting.

Every firing.

 

[rayvandervort]

Got one

My digital scale moved accuracy 10 fold. When I see it dispense 5-8 grains of ball powder to equal a couple tenths of a grain, I see the balance scale not hardly move. Powder level is also key to consistency.