What part of the rifle do you level when mounting a Scope - does it matter?

[Old Iron Sights]

I have spent the last decade getting my irons down and am fairly competent with them (I usually shoot 20 inch AR variants). I wanted to switch it up this year and get into magnified optics & bolt guns. With budget constraints the only thing I currently have to play with right now is an 18 inch Mossberg MVP in 5.56 and an older Ruger M77 Heavy Barrel. I want to work with the MVP first to learn about shooting with a magnified optic (fully understanding the limitations of the rifle). My first task is to mount a scope to the rifle, of which I had a 3-9x40 Leopold laying around. I read up on how to properly mount scopes and luckily, I already have the tools necessary. My setup is standard, I have the rifle vise setup in the garage, plumb line and light mounted to shine through the scope and the plumb line.

My first step was to level the rifle in the vise and I immediately ran into an issue that is not fully addressed in the many scope mounting tutorials. While trying to level the rifle I noticed that no two surfaces on the rifle appear parallel to each other. For example, the rifle has a factory 6 inch pic rail mounted to the receiver. However, I get almost a quarter bubble difference from the front of the rail to the back. Thinking I needed a better surface, I pull the stock and tried to level the barreled receiver using the various flats. However, I noticed that the flat machined parts of the receiver are not parallel to the pic rail and that got me wondering - exactly what part of the rifle should I plumb the scope to. Consider this:

I can get the scope as close to plumb to the earth as possible using an optical alignment method, but
- Is the scope plumb to the rings?
- Are the rings plumb to the mount/base?
- Is the mount/base plumb to the receiver?
- Is the receiver plumb to the stock?
- When holding the stock, is it plumb to the earth?

The constants here are the scope and the earth and that got me thinking. Does it really matter how plumb and true everything is if it all comes down to a fleshy human body holding the rifle and the eyeball determining its orientation to the earth? Assuming the scope is securely fixed to the rifle what is more important:

That the scope, base, receiver, stock are all plumb to one another?
-or-
The shooter orients the rifle the same way before every shot?

I would assume its the later and whole point of "plumbing it up" is to get the scope as true to the rifle as possible so the shooter has to compensate for orientation least before firing. Does that sound correct and all that being said - what is the best part of the rifle to level?

 

[TheSunPope]

Level the scope to gravity, you can use a flashlight and a plumb bob.

 

[Old Iron Sights]

Level the scope to gravity, you can use a flashlight and a plumb bob.

Thanks, I have that part of my setup ready to go but I do not understand what part of rifle I should level too. It seems no two parts on the rifle are level to one another so I don't know which one to use - does it need to be that precise?

 

[TheSunPope]

As long as the reticle is plumb to gravity, and you have a level for that you can reference I don't think it matters.

 

[KnowNothing256]

OP, you are asking fair and reasonable questions. If there is cant built into the rail, I do think it matters to try to have the scope truly level to the gun. By this I mean that if the vertical crosshair extended down, it would pass through the center of the bore.

One thing you said gave me pause: your scope rail isn’t straight. So. Here’s my thought: you’re working with an imperfect system, so fighting to make your process perfect to an imperfect baseline isn’t a good use of your time. I say this with all empathy, as someone who wants to control all the variables I easily can because why not; nonetheless, I think in this case the juice ain’t worth the squeeze.

My recommendation: split the difference on your rail being level. Have the back 1/8 of a bubble off on one side and the front 1/8 off the other side, and then get the scope perfectly level. If you’re using a bubble level mounted on the scope tube, it can actually make leveling in the rings/mount a bit easier; level the scope on any surface to your plumb line using the flashlight method like you plan, then lock in the tube-mounted bubble level to match. Then you can just watch the bubble as you set the scope in the rings. This isn’t necessary though.

Your head is on straight, you’re doing the right things. Stay the course, friend!

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

As long as the reticle is plumb to gravity, and you have a level for that you can reference I don't think it matters.

It will matter if you’re constantly fighting the rifle when looking at said level. And you’re going to always relax back to your natural point of aim.

Some people naturally cant their rifle and some don’t. Of the people who do, sometimes it’s bad form/fundamentals and sometime it’s just their body shape and such.

OP, if your stock/chassis is mated correctly and you don’t have any natural cant you’d be fighting, you can just use the picatinny rail to level the rifle.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Just saw the part about rail not being the same.

If you want to find out which you should use as the reference, shoulder the rifle naturally and see which end of the rail the bubble is level.

Use that as the reference to level the rifle and then plum the reticle.

Since we are human and have a natural point of aim, figure out which flat surface is level with your NPA and then use that.

 

[Oryx]

Bubble levels give a pretty decent reference, but generally the surface you are placing it on is pretty small, and depending on the length of your level it can be tricky to get good comparisons. I use it as a guide, but as others have mentioned, it's good to use a plumb line to better align while also doing your best keep the rifle level.

Many stop there, but I would also highly recommend testing the tracking of your scope to the set up... you may find your alignment doesn't always match up to your elevation tracking. Take that same target and dial up some elevation and make sure it tracks along that line. Sometimes it's helpful to move the target out a little further than your 100 yd zero range and test tracking... Just make sure your target vertical line is set up perfectly plumb. (search Tall target test)

Visual alignment alone isn't sufficient in my experience.

 

[Precision Underground]

What matters is that the scope itself(the reticle and internal travel) is level when you fire the rifle. It matters very little if the rifle is also level when the scope is level. If you want to make both level that’s fine. But IMO a better option is to find out where the rifle naturally cants when it’s comfortably connected to you, then level the scope to that position.

 

[Baron23]

I'm with @KnowNothing256, put your level in the middle of your rail and split the difference between the front and back. Its close enough.

I level the rifle to the rail...now, I have to admit that my rails on a Seekins Havak and a Defiance Deviant are very consistent across their length.

Then, I put a Wheeler level on the end of the barrel (so I can reproduce gun level with the scope on). Comes in a kit and its really kind of handy. Looks like this

This way I can take the rifle some 20-30 yards (or more) away from a plumb bob, reproduce the gun level, and then level the scope to the plumb bob.

Best of luck.

 

[cas6969]

For a strictly speaking point of view.... it does matter. And the more off it is, the more it matters. The farther you shoot, the more it matters. And the more difference between the scope and the bore being parallel, the more it matters. (higher +MOA mount makes it "worse")

But how much? Enough to notice? Probably not.
In the sterile vacuum of a hypothetical problem or mathematical equation, yes it matters. Enter in all the real world variables, realistic distances and environmental influences and you probably couldn't physically prove it mattered very much.


Where it DOES matter, is when I shoot one day and it looks straight, then shoot another day and it looks crooked and it drives me crazy. If I KNOW they're matched as accurately as possible, I know it's me and I can tell that other part of my brain to STFU.

 

[Nik H]

I used to labor over this one.

Buy a BADGER dead level and level the reticle to the fall of gravity. Then remove the mount and scope and attach it to your rifle. Run a tracking test and box test and you're done. No more worry.

 

[smoothy8500]

Just curious.

If both ends of the rail are not "level", does it indicate that the rail is getting twisted when screwed down due to uneven surfaces on the top of the receiver?

Or, is the rail potentially "warped" due to a manufacturing defect?

Precision rings don't require lapping, but if on a rail that isn't straight/true, are rings no longer perfectly aligned?

 

[Nik H]

Just curious.

If both ends of the rail are not "level", does it indicate that the rail is getting twisted when screwed down due to uneven surfaces on the top of the receiver?

Or, is the rail potentially "warped" due to a manufacturing defect?

Precision rings don't require lapping, but if on a rail that isn't straight/true, are rings no longer perfectly aligned?

If the rail isn't true, then all bets are off. There are tools that you can buy that are conical. They install inside the rings as if they were the scope body. You can then mount the rings on your rail. If the rail is off, the apex of the cone on each ring will not be aligned.

However, it is just easier if you use a receiver with an integral rail that is properly made. A well made receiver these days includes a rail that is true

 

[pineoak]

Scope reticle (inside scope) should be matched to the plumb bob/gravity.

Scope level/bubble should match the reticle which is matched to the plumb bob/gravity.

---

Honestly, my scope rails are level front to back so I can't help there. I then match the scope level/bubble to the scope rail/pic rail which gives me very close to a 0 degree cant, but I don't think that is nearly as important as the reticle to the scope level.

If running ARs with hand guards running top pica tinny rails, make sure your entire scope mount/both rings are on the back/receiver only.

 

[Old Iron Sights]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I found that I could use the flats on the tang of the receiver to level the rifle. I figured that is probably more true to the barrel than the factory installed scope rail. Got the scope mounted up. When the rifle is shouldered and held naturally, the reticle is as level as my eyeball can tell. Being a 18 inch 5.56 (using XM193 loads) I don't think any imperfections in mounting will be noted before the bullet runs out of practical range. This rifle is merely a training aid. Hopefully getting in dialed in this weekend.

 

[smoothy8500]

When the rifle is shouldered and held naturally, the reticle is as level as my eyeball can tell.

Naturally level when shouldered is key to the best performance while shooting.

 

[samnev]

Then, I put a Wheeler level on the end of the barrel (so I can reproduce gun level with the scope on). Comes in a kit and its really kind of handy. Looks like this

This way I can take the rifle some 20-30 yards (or more) away from a plumb bob, reproduce the gun level, and then level the scope to the plumb bob.

Best of luck.

That's the same setup that I use to level my scopes. Really works great.

 

[Milf Dots]

You asked the question in regard to a Ruger and a Mossberg, and not a custom action or even a higher end production rifle, so I'd get the rifle comfortable in your body's pocket and plumb/level the reticle to a plumb line. Done.

 

[RKBArmory]

The Badger Ordnance Dead Level seems like a good solution (as @Nik H suggested). Getting the rifle perfectly vertical, especially if you're trying to do it on a workbench, is probably not that easy, or reproducible. Taking that variable out of the equation seems like a logical solution.

 

[Mj1995]

Just saw the part about rail not being the same.

If you want to find out which you should use as the reference, shoulder the rifle naturally and see which end of the rail the bubble is level.

Use that as the reference to level the rifle and then plum the reticle.

Since we are human and have a natural point of aim, figure out which flat surface is level with your NPA and then use that.

I would agree with this.

I saw somewhere a bubble level that sits inside the action where the rounds go, possibly Brownells or midway usa would have it.

 

[frank320]

1) Hang a plumb blob at the end of a string, then line up the scope’s vertical reticle/crosshair to the hanging blob line
2) If your receiver/action is trued properly to the scope base/rails, then the plumb blob/vertical reticle/crosshair should run straight down, from the scope reticle into the rail, to the center of the chamber/barrel, right into the center of the firing pin(imagine drawing an extended line from the reticle). They should ALL line up perfectly along the center line, along the hanging blob line.

If it does not, rotate the scope in its rings till it lines up, before going through above steps again.

End goal here is to have the vertical reticle/crosshairs extend an imaginary line into the center of the barrel/chamber. This will ensure that every time you dial elevation, it is sliding vertically along the center axis of your scope and rifle bore.

 

[Butleroutdoors]

I’m a bit detailed when I level a scope, my process:
1. “Lightly” mount the scope and rings and confirm eye relief is acceptable at max/min zoom. Place a pencil mark on the scope to mark location of rings,p.Also ensure rail is torqu’ed to spec.
2. remove scope, place rifle in vise(like a tipon pro gun vise) and I use an electronic level to level the rifle on 3 spots on the rail, then lock the rifle down so it will not move. I make sure level is square to the rail left/right as well And I am truly on a flat surface. Usually quality rails are with 0.1 degree or better front to rear.
3. If mounting a scope that I have used before and I know the vertical cross hair is square to the elevation turret (confirmed from previous plumb bob test), I will simply use the e-level on elevation turret and then tighten the rings to torque spec.
4. if mounting a new to me scope, I will do #1 and #2 then loosely mount the scope, then hang a plumb line (String with weight at the bottom) and then rotate the scope to align the plumb line with the vertical crosshair.

key is not moving the rifle/base once it’s level and locked down.

With the e-level, I am usually within 0.0 to 0.2 degrees

I also check the e-level against 2 wheeler bubble levels and another bubble level to confirm it’s accurate as well.

if using slit rings like Warne process is little more difficult as when you torque the rings the scope may rotate up to 0.4 degrees

make sure rings are pushed fwd in the base rail

when tightening rings I use crisis cross method and incrementally get to torque spec

 

[BlkZ06]

I used to labor over this one.

Buy a BADGER dead level and level the reticle to the fall of gravity. Then remove the mount and scope and attach it to your rifle. Run a tracking test and box test and you're done. No more worry.

I’ve read different theories on this. Some guys say you need to go off the bore level.

The guys at BO told me if you use the Badger Dead Level with a scope affixed and sighting thru that assembly to a plumb Bob to align the reticle…you should be able to just transfer the ring/scope assembly over to the rifle and go. I’ve always assumed that was the purpose for this fixture.

In other words, there’s no reason to level the actual rifle itself, then rechecking the crosshairs after mounting the scope off the Dead Level…that’s just redundant right?

 

[stemikel]

I have the BO level and that is exactly how I do it.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Exactly. You don't need to level the rifle unless you have some weird out of true body positioning. I have most of the leveling products on the market including the wheeler set( junk ) and a badger dead level. Most quality optics will be true to the bottom of the turret housing. It's why spuhr includes the wedge and the cutout for their mounts. Works amazingly well. Throw a machinist level on top of the turret to double check and you should be withing a half degree or so. The only thing that takes time is setting up eye relief but they can be mocked up on rifle with scope in loose rings/mount before torquing down in the jig.

Badger dead level is one of the best pieces of gear bought over the years. Saved a ton of time and money and headaches.

 

[Precision Underground]

I’ve read different theories on this. Some guys say you need to go off the bore level.

The guys at BO told me if you use the Badger Dead Level with a scope affixed and sighting thru that assembly to a plumb Bob to align the reticle…you should be able to just transfer the ring/scope assembly over to the rifle and go. I’ve always assumed that was the purpose for this fixture.

In other words, there’s no reason to level the actual rifle itself, then rechecking the crosshairs after mounting the scope off the Dead Level…that’s just redundant right?

What really matters is that the reticle/internal travel is level to the earth when you fire the rifle. The bullet won’t know if the scope is perfectly level to the rifle or not. If you want to get OCD, do it when attaching a bubble/level indicator onto the scope while it’s in the fixture to make sure your indicator and the reticle match up.

 

[Nik H]

I’ve read different theories on this. Some guys say you need to go off the bore level.

The guys at BO told me if you use the Badger Dead Level with a scope affixed and sighting thru that assembly to a plumb Bob to align the reticle…you should be able to just transfer the ring/scope assembly over to the rifle and go. I’ve always assumed that was the purpose for this fixture.

In other words, there’s no reason to level the actual rifle itself, then rechecking the crosshairs after mounting the scope off the Dead Level…that’s just redundant right?

I use the Dead Level in concert with a HORUS Tall Target versus a plumb line. Too windy where I am to use the plumb line even with a weight.

The HORUS is a great tool as it is very precise and I not only can use it to align the reticle properly but I also use it check tracking. I check it while the scope is on the Dead Level and after when the scope is back on the rifle. I finish with a tracking test from the prone to ensure I am getting a similar result when in final position.

Not saying there aren’t better methods than mine but I am used to it and it works great.

 

[cuz]

Ok, I've been searching, and there's a lot of "stuff" on the subject of setting up a scope on a rifle, using rings, but it's all piece meal.

Is there a step by step guide for beginners to explain how to put a scope on a rifle using rings, and what to level, how to do it, etc., etc. ?
If there is, please point me to it...

Thanks

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Plumb Bob. Level scope to plum Bob and level a level to the same plum Bob. Easiest way without tools to level your gun. Now your level is tuned to the reticle.

 

[Aftermath]

Is there a step by step guide for beginners to explain how to put a scope on a rifle using rings, and what to level, how to do it, etc., etc. ?
If there is, please point me to it...

The rings will be in 2 pieces (or more). Mount the bottom part of the ring to the rifle using blue loctite and the spec torque value.
Place the scope on the bottom half of the rings and place the top half of the rings on the scope, start the screws that hold the rings together.
Move the scope fore and aft to find the eye relief you want.
Mount the rifle in your vice. Use a 0.5mm pencil to mark the fore/aft position of the scope. Take the top piece off the rings. Place a small drop of blue loctite on the scope where the rings will sit. Place the top part of the ring back on the scope and start to tighten the screws, notice your pencil mark.
Mount your light to shine through the scope. Mount a light to shine through the bore (laser bore sight works well). You may need to get creative for that part but finding a light to shine through the bore will help you be sure the scope is above the line of the bore. If it's not, it's not a deal breaker but things are easier to tune later on if everything is lined up and instill confidence in your setup.
Move the setup around until the vertical line created by the reticle is plumb to the bob AND that line will pass through the center of the light dot created by the bore. Notice your pencil mark.
Carefully tighten all the cap screws by going 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each one and alternating in a criss-cross pattern. Go slow so you don't turn the scope in the rings. Finish with the spec torque value using that criss-cross pattern.

 

[carbonbased]

Ok, I've been searching, and there's a lot of "stuff" on the subject of setting up a scope on a rifle, using rings, but it's all piece meal.

Is there a step by step guide for beginners to explain how to put a scope on a rifle using rings, and what to level, how to do it, etc., etc. ?
If there is, please point me to it...

Thanks

I feel your pain. The above vid is from our @koshkin. Even he doesn’t explain how to do this with a Rem 700 open-top action (if you have one). I could take a shot at it, but I’m really trying NOT to flood you with information.

I don’t know of a solo vid that calmly steps a person through ALL of the steps with both an open-top action (two piece rail) and a one-piece rail while explaining the whys and dispelling the myths in an extremely clear manner.

From our very own Frank:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...sson-scope-mounting-and-rifle-set-up.6927816/

Cant myth dispelling:

Gunsmithing - Scope level to a rifle

Reading over this resurrected thread got me thinking. And that's not always the best place for me. It's obvious that the only thing that matters is that the reticle is level when the shot is taken. The rifle could be canted a few degrees and as long as it was zeroed in that position with a level...

www.snipershide.com

To make your life easier, buy ARC rings, which use only one bolt to righting to the scope. Basically eliminates the scope rotating as you tighten down a typical ring cap.

Separate rings

M-BRACE SCOPE RINGS

www.americanrifle.com

One-piece mount

M-BRACE SCOPE MOUNT

www.americanrifle.com

 

[smoothy8500]

All that work to "square" the scope. But what if the rifle butt doesn't fit your shoulder straight/plumb/square, does it make the rifle crooked?......Asking for a friend.....

 

[Taylorbok]

I used to sweat over this. Now I don't. I actually prefer to mount a scope at the range. Get behind the gun. set eye relief. Hang a plumb bob at 100 yards and true your level to gravity and the reticle. Now with the scope slightly loose get behind the gun in your most common shooting position and let your body naturally guide the gun. Now level the scope so that it's level in that position. Tighten it down and get back in that position. If its level good if not adjust it. Go back to plumb bob and make sure reticle and level still line up. Now shoot a tall target test to verify, at this time may as well check if you need any elevation correction factor

 

[carbonbased]

All that work to "square" the scope. But what if the rifle butt doesn't fit your shoulder straight/plumb/square, does it make the rifle crooked?......Asking for a friend.....

Long version:

Gunsmithing - Scope level to a rifle

Reading over this resurrected thread got me thinking. And that's not always the best place for me. It's obvious that the only thing that matters is that the reticle is level when the shot is taken. The rifle could be canted a few degrees and as long as it was zeroed in that position with a level...

www.snipershide.com

P.S. not making fun of you @smoothy8500 but making light of the million times I too have had this thought and learned/relearned the answer.

 

[smoothy8500]

I know you aren’t making fun of me, I was just laughing at people that worry about straight scope and then unknowingly cant the rifle every time they shoulder it…..

 

[Taylorbok]

I know you aren’t making fun of me, I was just laughing at people that worry about straight scope and then unknowingly cant the rifle every time they shoulder it…..

If ur not gonna put a scope level on there’s no sense worrying if the scope is level to the action or anything else for that matter, just Raw dog it

 

[4O6shootist]

I throw my send it level on the rifle action rail(first ensuring the entire rail is level). Put rifle on Tripod, approx 50y from my garage door. I then put my laser level onto my other Tripod, and project the level onto the garage. With the rifle level, I then level the scope to the laser, and install a scope tube level. I normally run the send it on match rigs, but hunting rifles just get levels on the tube.

 

[lyman]

there is a company that make a 2 wedges device that works,

basically 2 wedges, that go between the bottom of the scope (at the turrents) and the mound, (works best obviously on a bridge type mount or rail)


however,

the way I learned,

eyeball it,

tighten the bases, locktite if needed, torque the screws,
install rings loosely on scope
mount scope to base,
thighten rings, but not done tight,

shoulder rifle, if in your garage or house, aim at a doorway,

door frames are generally square, use the top corner (left or right) set the scope,

check again when tight,

if you are doing this for someone, be sure to hold the rifle as verticle as possible, not knowing if they shoot with a cant or not,

if yours, hold it on a bench, snug it up, the hold it offhand and see where you are at,


if satisfield, tighten, and go shoot

 

[MarinePMI]

The badger dead level device is probably the easiest thing to use.

Or you can be cheap like me, and just make your own from a scrap piece of tooling plate, and Rem 700 Pic base and a level (I did this before the Badger device was available). Where mine differs is that instead of leveling feet, I D&T for an ARCA base. Then just mount the plate on my tripod, level the head/plate and hang a plumb line. Then sit in a lawn chair at home and mount the scope into the rings/base.

I need to find mine, or make a new one. I think someone borrowed it, and it never made its way back home.

 

[Baron23]

I know you aren’t making fun of me, I was just laughing at people that worry about straight scope and then unknowingly cant the rifle every time they shoulder it…..

Ah, I do hear this a lot. Now, I was a competitive skeet shooter for years and many/most shotguns you see on those fields have an adjustable butt pad so as to be able to cant the pad to fit your shoulder pocket while keeping the shotgun upright. Note, these shotguns are held at an angle to the body and NOT straight out from the center line of your body like you would with NPA and a heavy rifle.

But for rifles, unless they are being shot off hand or perhaps with the old plastic Army man prone position (think NRA high power prone position), I don't care about my shoulder pocket. My pad is far inboard of that and vertical is what I want.

So for me, I do like to level the rifle, then level the scope on a level rifle, and check it all out against a plumb bob. And tbh, I don't care if my degree of rigor in this actually shows up on the target....for me, its peace of mind (well, peace for an slightly OCD anal idiot haha)

I do know some who feel that they are more comfortable with a cant of the rifle for their shoulder pocket and want the reticle to be level when they are in this canted rifle position, but unless they are shooting off hand, rifle across their body, I'm not sure why.

Cheers

 

[shootrj2003]

Here’s how I do it ,take action and barrel out of the stock mount them in the stock with copper or lead sheets to protect the blueing ,the scope rail mounted on the action using a small level (I got two little square ones out of picture hanging kits at dollar general) I level it in the vise ,the level on the scope rail ,if the scope rail screwed to the action tight and the action Is held secure and the bubble is centered- your rail is level ,mount the rings loosely , mount the scope loosely,put the rings where you want them on the rail and on the scope,tighten the rings to the rail,I put scotch tape in the rings mounting area before putting the scope in the rings,then slightly screw the rings down til I can still move the scope but with friction ,use double sided tape from you wife’s crafting supplys( she does craft ,right?) mount the level to the top cap of the scope if it’s rounded or weird in some way take the cap off and put the level on the adjuster screw,the tape just helps it not fall while moving the scope level,I don’t always use it which helps me get mad and think of curse words.when it’s level tighten the rings screws,like torquing down piston rods,evenly and it should be level when look through the scope usually is,sometimes…sigh…not quite right!, my method.

 

[4O6shootist]

You buy dollar store shit to level your 4k dollar rig? Don't be a cheap ass and get a Starrett. All jokes aside, levels are not created equally. Cheap is cheap for a reason. Bought 4 or 5 mkm bullet aluminum picatinny bubbles 3 or 4 years ago, none were the same on the same rail in the same spot. When checked against a digital level or a Starrett bubble, only 1 was true.

 

[MarinePMI]

If you're going to be serious about a level, you need to use a machinist's level (same kind you use to set up a lathe). But they ain't cheap (AMHIK).

 

[shootrj2003]

I don’t know,it works for me,I don’t use an electron microscope to check the finish or threads either,a bubble doesn’t lie ,if it’s in the center of the capsule it’s telling you where gravity is pulling,it’s as accurate as any level I used for building houses.if I put it on a level shelve with my 4 ft level,my 2’ level,my10” bullet level and my combo square they’re all inthe center if your machinist level is any different on that shelf maybe you need a new one ,because a ball bearing won’t roll off either. These little jewels are just a square capsule ,pretty hard to be wrong there ,I came of age in the 70’s,we had a saying K.I.S.S. ( Keep It Simple Stupid)
level the action ,assemble the rail,check the level ,if the action and rail aren’t both in agreement ,I’d ship the $4000 action back ( unless your D&ting for the rail ) if they are assemble the rings and scope level and secure,done.
If I was running a machine shop or Gunsmithing $4000 dollar rifles as a living I would have such toys but my scopes and sights are as level and accurate as any shops. ( maybe more than some!) and I Smile!

 

[MarinePMI]

I don’t know,it works for me,I don’t use an electron microscope to check the finish or threads either,a bubble doesn’t lie ,if it’s in the center of the capsule it’s telling you where gravity is pulling,it’s as accurate as any level I used for building houses.if I put it on a level shelve with my 4 ft level,my 2’ level,my10” bullet level and my combo square they’re all inthe center if your machinist level is any different on that shelf maybe you need a new one ,because a ball bearing won’t roll off either. These little jewels are just a square capsule ,pretty hard to be wrong there ,I came of age in the 70’s,we had a saying K.I.S.S. ( Keep It Simple Stupid)
level the action ,assemble the rail,check the level ,if the action and rail aren’t both in agreement ,I’d ship the $4000 action back ( unless your D&ting for the rail ) if they are assemble the rings and scope level and secure,done.

<chuckle> I'm thinking you've never seen a machinist's level.

Is it required to level a scope? Nope. My comment was over the debate on the quality of the level itself.

As for coming of age in the 70's...there's a lot of us that can say that. And a lot of them are just as wrong at 60 year old, as they were at 25yrs old. Age doesn't have anything to do with what you know. That's like confusing education with intelligence. I know a lot of smart guys that never went to college...and a lot of dumb ones that did.

 

[kthomas]

Whether the rifle is level or not is pretty irrelevant to scope mounting.

The scope should be mounted level to how you interface the rifle. Setup the rifle how you would shoot it prone, and level the scope to that.

If you level the rifle when leveling the scope but consistently shoot the rifle with a 2* cant, then you are introducing error into your system.

 

[carbonbased]

And a lot of them are just as wrong at 60 year old, as they were at 25yrs old…I know a lot of smart guys that never went to college...and a lot of dumb ones that did.

NOT APPRECIATED!!!



Sorry lol

 

[shootrj2003]

agreed PMI,and that’s a title I respect,I am not a machinist nor am I a real died in the wool gunsmith,I have done the work and I do all my own work and I would know if my work is faulty( I’ve had no complaints I just enjoy doing my best )and I know where I stop at and go to a gunsmith I know a few good ones , the ones I use respect me because they know me.thank you for you service Semper Fi.
Kthomas,I also know you remove as many variables as possible before the rifle gets to the shooter because every shooter is full of variables, my tools are more than sufficient for a level and accurate scope or iron / peep sight rifle sight job. As said I don’t do others work only my own and have for years. I’m fairly adept at accuracy and run a Sporterifle team from Sept to April, frankly I love it ,as well as teaching accuracy skills.to my team members.I teach them based on my training in the Marines ,I was not a venerated pMI or anything just an 0331 on the m60 but all Marines are riflemen first ,I was just better with a .45 . I don’t disrespect others if I’m not disrespected,and my work is good even if my tools are not perfect.
Marine PMI,I graduated with real high scores from Oklahoma Farriers College,if something don’t fit heat it red hot and beat it! Just a couple projects I don’t always do rifles.

 

[Aftermath]

I bought this set a few years ago and have been very pleased with the results. It sure simplifies shit. Of course, you have to assume that the pic rail is square/level/plumb (or whatever your semantics are for that) to the action/bore and that the bottom of the scope is square/level/plumb (or whatever your semantics are for that) to the reticle.
At some point, you just have to shoot it anyway.