Sidearms & Scatterguns Whats the best designed true fighting knife

[ArmaHeavy]

Really? Funny thing is I haven't been issued one or seen any of the guys I work with ,with one during our knife fighting sessions, but then again I haven't been issued that fancy watch in the skymall magazine that says it's being used by "Spec Ops" either. Now that I think about it, none of my team mates have that watch either. I'm gonna have to go see the supply Sgt and ask him why my team mates and I don't have these "as used by Spec Ops" items I see everywhere.

Call the makers of these "Spec Ops watches", and you will find out more then you ever wanted to know about them. In a sarcastic tone of course. A Google search after the fact told me what I already guessed too.

To keep this on topic...

Please consider the price of your knife. Some people buy a knife over $100 and up. Eventually there is a certain price point where the knife will not get used, and get put away for safe keeping, only to be taken out at a later date when it comes time to sell it.

It happens, and I did the same thing(I've fucked up some $200 knives too). Now I'll just stick with a particular price area so the tool actually gets used.

 

[Unknown]

ArmaHeavy makes an excellent point...if the knife is so expensive that you fear loosing it, or diminishing it's value through use, it is a safe queen, and therefore NOT a useful tool. (A tool without use is...well...useless)

While I like and appreciate all sorts of knives, a Kabar type, or a 7 inch dagger such as Gerber or Fairbairn Sykes will get the job done while not breaking the bank.

 

[relentless]

I am in favor of the Bowies, preferably by Bill Bagwell. None better IMO.

 

[Shoottothrill]

I am a total novice when it comes to knives, but this company caught my eye and I have purchased their M-5 which I really like, it is not a fighter in the traditional sense, but a really good hard use knife that could be used for many purposes.

This other knife the M-9 is more of a traditional fighter and it's a dagger that I believe would hold up to both fighting and any other task that one would want to throw at it. They are made of 5160 steel and are .323 inches thick. Super tough. Maybe too heavy for a traditional fighting knife. Here's a picture and video link in case anyone would be interested.


MBB M-9

Steel - 5160
Thickness - 5/16 ( .323 )
Length - 13-1/2in overall
Blade length - 7-1/2in
Blade width - 1-1/4in
Handle material - Textured G-10 FR-4

Includes black kydex sheath.
Price $335.

videos

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I am in favor of the Bowies, preferably by Bill Bagwell. None better IMO.

Those are nice knives, no doubt. However, what a lot of people forget is a lot of the big ass knives or certain makes that have thick dimensions are pretty heavy to carry around the boonies on your gear. When you walk everywhere and carry and live out of the bag on your back every ounce and space is a consideration. Cutting down MRE's to just the needed parts and cutting your toothbrush handle in half so your shave kit and assorted shit takes up less space is a way of life and carry a 2-3 pound knife is a cherry mistake. You can always tell who the pogues/ REMFs and people who don't walk for a living are by how big their knives are. It's not uncommon to see support pukes with knives so big that they could be considered swords in some past cultures.You won't catch anyone in a combat arms MOS carrying anything like that.

 

[Unknown]

Papa three zero makes a good point about weight, and how gear gets packed to save weight. It would be easy for me to go on a tangent about all sorts of things to do with knives, and use, but the OP's question asked only for an opinion about the best fighting knife.

I guess I would say the best one is the one you know how to use, have trained with, and the one you have with you when you need it. Almost any good fixed blade knife is better than fighting empty handed. I have always thought that if I end up reduced to knife fighting, I really, REALLY screwed up in my planning.

 

[AK264]

I guess I would say the best one is the one you know how to use, have trained with, and the one you have with you when you need it. Almost any good fixed blade knife is better than fighting empty handed. I have always thought that if I end up reduced to knife fighting, I really, REALLY screwed up in my planning.

This ^^^.
Define fighting? Warfare where you are trying to kill a enemy or self defense? IMHO different situations different tools. Ive been thinking about starting to carry a knife as I am getting too old for ground fighting. I hesitate because generally I believe Juries look upon knives as thuggish weapons when used in self defense by men. ( I am not a lawyer nor am I offering legal advise). This is based on a martial arts instructors warning that the DA had ruled that it was impossible to discern in between offensive and defensive knife wounds. In other words the DA says if you parry a punch and slice that arm with a serrated spiderco, it can not be discerned from if you were attacking a innocent with that sp[yderco and he lifted his arm to block. The same instructor carries a gun and several knives 24-7 however ... On the other hand I believe every woman out there should carry and train with a edged weapon because the jury believes a women does not have to "fight fair". ( I am not a lawyer nor am I offering legal advise) If you are choosing a edged weapon for self defense imagine the DA holding it up in front of the jury. The question I ask myself is would the time be better spent training with a knife or training my situational awareness skills. Or more time running. I am a big fan of the Nike defense but if I was down and getting kicked in the head or having a choke applied to me Im sure i would wish for a edged tool.
I suppose the Fairborn or the Kabar could be considered the best designed knifes for killing an enemy. My feeling is that I would rather face a uncertain opponent with a Katana, than a experienced and determined opponent with a ice pick. Ok thats it- buying a new pair of running shoes tommorow

 

[Unknown]

AK264,
I may be missing your point, but I don't really think you are asking for a definition of "fighting" as websters, or wikipedia can easily do that. I think what you are looking for is more closely related to "rules", regulations, legal decisions and similar things regarding the use of force.

The short version of what is taught at most police academy classes is this: If the level of force used is justified, the means of application is of no consequence. In otherwords, if you are justified in using deadly force, it doesn't matter whether you used a firearm, knife, shovel, sharpened stick, or a rock. The really difficult thing is understanding all the legal decisions in both local, and larger jurisdictions. If you aren't justified in using deadly force, I would think you would have a very difficult time convincing a jury that a knife is a lower level of force than a firearm.

There are many factors that determine whether or not you or I would be justified in going to the next higher level of force when we become involved in an altercation, or fight. If I was 6'4" tall and weighed 245 pounds, 25 years old, and in great shape, I would have a hard time convincing a jury that I needed to go to a higher level of force against someone who was 5'3" tall weighing 125 pounds at 65 years old and feeble. However, if the small, feeble, old person is wielding a knife or club, you might be justified in going to a higher level of force than simply hands on. Some of the commonly considered factors:
1. my size and fitness compared to the other person's
2. if the other person has a weapon, how dangerous is it? (a piece of garden hose or a 4' long Scottish claymore)
3. my level of experience compared to the other person (am I a black belt fighting someone with no experience?)
4. do we both have a legal reason to be there?
5. who started it?
6. is there some reason I should submit to the other person's demand (such as a police officer, or the property owner)
7. does the other person have the means, ability, and intent to harm me? (all 3 need to be present)
there are many, MANY other considerations, but this lets you know the things to consider.

The classes on use of force rules, application of them, report writing, relevant legal decisions, and related items takes days to teach at the police academy. So it isn't something that can be written out in a few paragraphs on this forum.

I have much respect for people who are willing ask about these items, and feel that they deserve better than many of the snarky, or smart assed responses these sorts of questions often receive. If you are really interested in finding out more about use of force, you will find it confusing, and enlightening. People who have to make instant life or death decisions about use of deadly force issues risk everything they have on a decision that has to be made instantly, and under incredible pressure.

I have been fortunate enough that my decisions haven't been bad ones (so far). The "what if" questions about these decisions will plague both the sleep and waking hours of those who have had to make these decisions.

 

[AK264]

AK264,
I may be missing your point, but I don't really think you are asking for a definition of "fighting" as websters, or wikipedia can easily do that. I think what you are looking for is more closely related to "rules", regulations, legal decisions and similar things regarding the use of force.

The short version of what is taught at most police academy classes is this: If the level of force used is justified, the means of application is of no consequence. In otherwords, if you are justified in using deadly force, it doesn't matter whether you used a firearm, knife, shovel, sharpened stick, or a rock. The really difficult thing is understanding all the legal decisions in both local, and larger jurisdictions. If you aren't justified in using deadly force, I would think you would have a very difficult time convincing a jury that a knife is a lower level of force than a firearm.

There are many factors that determine whether or not you or I would be justified in going to the next higher level of force when we become involved in an altercation, or fight. If I was 6'4" tall and weighed 245 pounds, 25 years old, and in great shape, I would have a hard time convincing a jury that I needed to go to a higher level of force against someone who was 5'3" tall weighing 125 pounds at 65 years old and feeble. However, if the small, feeble, old person is wielding a knife or club, you might be justified in going to a higher level of force than simply hands on. Some of the commonly considered factors:
1. my size and fitness compared to the other person's
2. if the other person has a weapon, how dangerous is it? (a piece of garden hose or a 4' long Scottish claymore)
3. my level of experience compared to the other person (am I a black belt fighting someone with no experience?)
4. do we both have a legal reason to be there?
5. who started it?
6. is there some reason I should submit to the other person's demand (such as a police officer, or the property owner)
7. does the other person have the means, ability, and intent to harm me? (all 3 need to be present)
there are many, MANY other considerations, but this lets you know the things to consider.

The classes on use of force rules, application of them, report writing, relevant legal decisions, and related items takes days to teach at the police academy. So it isn't something that can be written out in a few paragraphs on this forum.

I have much respect for people who are willing ask about these items, and feel that they deserve better than many of the snarky, or smart assed responses these sorts of questions often receive. If you are really interested in finding out more about use of force, you will find it confusing, and enlightening. People who have to make instant life or death decisions about use of deadly force issues risk everything they have on a decision that has to be made instantly, and under incredible pressure.

I have been fortunate enough that my decisions haven't been bad ones (so far). The "what if" questions about these decisions will plague both the sleep and waking hours of those who have had to make these decisions.

Thank you for this information. I read it several times. I appreciate your effort to inform and setting the tone that this is a subject of the utmost seriousness. My post was not well communicated. I quoted your post with a "this" to indicate I thought it was the best post on the topic. My question "what is fighting" was directed at the original thread question "whats the best designed true fighting knife" as was the rest of the post. I was unsure whether the original post was asking about opinions on military knives or seeking advice on a appropriate knife for self defense. Thank you for your considered and thought provoking response. I have tried to assimilate the information within it and will continue to do so for some time. The decisions you speak of are ones I hope I never have to make and your post has strongly motivated me to increase my situational awareness.

 

[g3ninfinite]

Who makes modern production daggers like fairbarn Sykes style?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Who makes modern production daggers like fairbarn Sykes style?

I posted a picture of it up thread. George knives makes one.

 

[rookie101]

off topic, sorry, anybody know where I can find info about al mar knives? I think it is older, has a five and a half inch blade, black plastic like handle, checkered with two grooves in it, is marked seki japan above the hilt and pp 165/200 along the spine on the opposite side of the blade from the al mar stamp and symbol. I kind of f'd it up, as a kid I cleaned a couple deer with it, polished it out and lost a lot of the color on the stamps, but would like to know more about it. Sorry for hi jacking, and thanks

 

[2_many_dogs]

Who makes modern production daggers like fairbarn Sykes style?

Maybe these fit the bill for you?
Ek Knife - The Knives

 

[g3ninfinite]

I posted a picture of it up thread. George knives makes one.

This is a production knife? Link?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

This is a production knife? Link?

It is a custom made knife that Les George of George Knives makes when requested. I want to say it's $500 or around there.

His site is here, contact him direct if you want this model knife.

George Knives, Inc Home Page

 

[g3ninfinite]

It is a custom made knife that Les George of George Knives makes when requested. I want to say it's $500 or around there.

His site is here, contact him direct if you want this model knife.

George Knives, Inc Home Page

Yeah I was referring to production knives. That is a nice knife though.

 

[g3ninfinite]

It is a custom made knife that Les George of George Knives makes when requested. I want to say it's $500 or around there.

His site is here, contact him direct if you want this model knife.

George Knives, Inc Home Page

Also per his website he is not taking any new orders.

 

[Unknown]

off topic, sorry, anybody know where I can find info about al mar knives? I think it is older, has a five and a half inch blade, black plastic like handle, checkered with two grooves in it, is marked seki japan above the hilt and pp 165/200 along the spine on the opposite side of the blade from the al mar stamp and symbol. I kind of f'd it up, as a kid I cleaned a couple deer with it, polished it out and lost a lot of the color on the stamps, but would like to know more about it. Sorry for hi jacking, and thanks

Al Mar knives is still in business, although Al passed away some years ago. Gary Fadden is currently running the company, and they are located in Oregon. If you want to send me a photo of the knife I might be able to identify it for you. I used to collect many of the Al Mar knives, and was friends with Al for many years.

From the handle you are describing, it sounds like one of the early tanto type blades Al was working with. The early models had the plastic handle with a thong hold molded into it. As many people told Al that the handle was too short, the next models had a series of spacers between the guard, and the plastic handle. The spacers were stainless, brass, stainless. Al said that the mold for the handles cost a small fortune, and he didn't want to give up on those handles just because the originals were a little shorter than he wanted. Later versions of that knife had blades that went up to about 8-10 inches. There were a number of various blade shapes for this handle design. The tanto had a sheath that was very versatile and could be worn right or left handed without any change because of the interesting sheath design.

 

[buggsb]

KBAR....I suspect a lot of people have succumbed to a Marine and his KBAR.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Also per his website he is not taking any new orders.

Don't believe everything you see on the internet.

 

[boomer81]

i read somewhere soley for fighting any variant of the 1918 style trench knife vintage/modern or otherwise is hard to beat. It gives three strike points stabbing punching skull/glass crushing spike. Good protection of hand and knuckles and not easily dropped. Most are marketed as letter openers now because they are illegal as hell. The One sets on my desk gets alot of attention

 

[totenkopf]

5 inch Mad DOG!

 

[Lazlo]

I found thins link to a British maker of F/S knives. Curious if anyone has experience with these guys:

Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife

 

[CthulhuAwakens]

/end

 

[Sauce787]

I agree that your level/style of training should determine the type of knife you carry. Look up kerambit fighting videos on youtube, pretty impressive stuff. The Spartan cqb/benchmade socp dagger both look to be pretty similar as well. I also really like the looks of Iron Hammer Armory blades and they come with an iwb sheath.

 

[Graham]

Whats the best designed true fighting knife

I agree that your level/style of training should determine the type of knife you carry.

Yup. If you don't know what knife you want, then what you really need is quality training.

 

[John1911.com]

Considering I live in the 21st century, I have settled on the TDI KA-BAR knives. For me, a knife is a secondary weapon. So carrying a pistol, reload, light and cell phone is starting to push the daily limits.

As much as I like the Randall knives, I'm not a knife geek. So I'm more practical. Something in that size and weight range would end up being a snub revolver.

I like small, fixed blade knives that are inexpensive, difficult to have taken from you, but not great shakes if I lose it. In my universe, a knife is something I go to should a perp close range on me. Or go for a gun grab.

Not sexy. Not cool. But effective. Which is what counts the most.

But I'll never turn my nose up to a real Randall.

TTR

 

[g3ninfinite]

After searching around I think the most bang for my buck that I've found is gonna be the Blackhawk UK SFK.

 

[Unknown]

For just under $163, that Blackhawk UK SFK is a great knife value. I had never heard of it before. Most makers use stainless steel, but if the buyer knows how to maintain a knife made out of D2 tool steel, that SFK is a terrific value.

 

[Delta4-3]

My favorite fighting knife is a Glock 19. For all other knifey tasks, my SOG multi tool and bench made folder suffice.

 

[Shoottothrill]

My favorite fighting knife is a Glock 19. For all other knifey tasks, my SOG multi tool and bench made folder suffice.

LMFAO.

I would be interested to hear how many soldiers returning from Iraq and Afgan actually got into a knife fight while in combat? I can't imagine alot. I would think that WW! in the trenches it happened more frequently.

 

[Delta4-3]

A certain e-7 in the 82nd killed somebody with a tomahawk and got a silver star for it. I can only think of one publicized knifing from a Joe in 1/75, but my guess would be 2-3 for both wars combined.

LMFAO.

I would be interested to hear how many soldiers returning from Iraq and Afgan actually got into a knife fight while in combat? I can't imagine alot. I would think that WW! in the trenches it happened more frequently.

 

[ranger1183]

This is a work of art. Truly good for only one thing, but a work of art nonetheless.

 

[RollingThunder51]

 

[stefan73]

A bowie is a traditional fighting knife and a damn good one IMO. BOWIE KNIFE | The Handbook of Texas Online| Texas State Historical Association (TSHA) read the bottom article Bowie Knife Fights, Fighters & Fighting Techniques. . .
There is a slight history of bowies and ties to fencing bowie knife | fortezafitness

 

[RollingThunder51]

Popular with those what hold sway over The Five Points...

 

[ArmaHeavy]

A certain e-7 in the 82nd killed somebody with a tomahawk and got a silver star for it. I can only think of one publicized knifing from a Joe in 1/75, but my guess would be 2-3 for both wars combined.

David Bellavia(former SSG) wrote, in his book House to House, about his hand to hand encounter with an insurgent, when he was in Fallujah, with the Big Red One.

It's well worth reading.

 

[Graham]

The search for the best designed fighting knife started very long ago. Any correct answer must assume a design, mastery of a specific set of skills to make the blade, and mastery of the necessary training to be able to properly use it. Therefore the best blade for you might not be the best blade for me. Here's one that suits me. It happens to be mine, at least for my lifetime until it finds its next caretaker:

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

+1 for Fairburn-Sykes, Grayman, Busse (Swamprat), and Scazbo
I definitely agree there is no "best" as one must train to be able to master any style.

 

[Barn Side]

Papa Zero Three do you rate the Applegate–Fairbairn?

I have read that the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting Knife had a weak blade point and that the Applegate–Fairbairn was supposed to be an improvement on the Fairbairn-Sykes design weaknesses. In your opinion what is the better fighting knife?

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Papa Zero Three do you rate the Applegate–Fairbairn?

I have read that the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting Knife had a weak blade point and that the Applegate–Fairbairn was supposed to be an improvement on the Fairbairn-Sykes design weaknesses. In your opinion what is the better fighting knife?

Historically speaking, that is true due to the variations in manufacture that are noted. Col Applegate's design did improve on the FS to make some needed improvements but at it's foundations, those knives were and are designed for one thing and not much more. You have a knife that is purpose designed that also has/had a specific series of techniques for it use in accomplishing what it was designed for in a military role. Not too many other knife designs can say the same. Most knives are derivatives having multi functions for more mundane daily tasks and or are utilitarian in nature. So, IMO , knives like the FS and the Applegate-Fairbairn are the ideal knife for one specific task, used in the way it was meant to be used. For a modern fighting knife, where you may also be fighting against a person who also has a knife and or need it for mundane tasks, it might be less ideal for most of those chores.

 

[Galuyasdi]

The early Gerber Mk 2 was made in L-6, 440B or C (Dive Versions) and with grey, orange or yellow handles with blades from 6" to 6 7/8". A knife that is expected to do service as a fighter is likely to be used for sentry removal as well and should have a blade of about 7" to make vital targets in the human body reachable from all angles. If the blade from back to primary cutting edge is too great it prevents the blade from entering at all angles but compensates for this in other capacities.
I like bowies, Randalls m1 & m2 w/7" & 8" blades, and the Gerber Mk2. Just my take on the matter.

 

[Unknown]

I think there is a difference between a fighting knife, and a killing knife, in much the same way that there is a difference between a general purpose hunting knife, and a skinning knife.

While the daggers are great within their intended usage (thrusting, or killing), they lack the general ability for a strong slashing cut, or back cut such as can be completed with a bowie having a sharpened back edge. A decent bowie (not one of those monster 3-4 inch wide blades) can reach the subclavian artery or a kidney just as well as a dagger, and because of the blade width, it will cut more tissue on it's way in and out. The new USMC fighting knife/bayonette is a very effective weapon...and won't break the bank.

However, if all I got issued was a Fairbairn-Sykes knife it would sure beat the hell out of a sharpened stick.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Well, since we seem to be truly stuck in first gear. Here is something that many will enjoy.

The Fairbairn Sykes Fighting Knives - Introduction

Every blade type from proto forward, most variants.

Enjoy.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

The early Gerber Mk 2 was made in L-6, 440B or C (Dive Versions) and with grey, orange or yellow handles with blades from 6" to 6 7/8". A knife that is expected to do service as a fighter is likely to be used for sentry removal as well and should have a blade of about 7" to make vital targets in the human body reachable from all angles. If the blade from back to primary cutting edge is too great it prevents the blade from entering at all angles but compensates for this in other capacities.
I like bowies, Randalls m1 & m2 w/7" & 8" blades, and the Gerber Mk2. Just my take on the matter.

I'm carrying the Gray handle version in the picture in post #20 of this thread, great knife the Mk II

Well, since we seem to be truly stuck in first gear. Here is something that many will enjoy.

The Fairbairn Sykes Fighting Knives - Introduction

Every blade type from proto forward, most variants.

Enjoy.

I posted a link to this site in post #3 of this thread. It looks like the author has given it a bit of a face lift since then, its a good site for comparing the different versions out there.

 

[Galuyasdi]

I think there is a difference between a fighting knife, and a killing knife, in much the same way that there is a difference between a general purpose hunting knife, and a skinning knife.

While the daggers are great within their intended usage (thrusting, or killing), they lack the general ability for a strong slashing cut, or back cut such as can be completed with a bowie having a sharpened back edge. A decent bowie (not one of those monster 3-4 inch wide blades) can reach the subclavian artery or a kidney just as well as a dagger, and because of the blade width, it will cut more tissue on it's way in and out. The new USMC fighting knife/bayonette is a very effective weapon...and won't break the bank.

However, if all I got issued was a Fairbairn-Sykes knife it would sure beat the hell out of a sharpened stick.

This is all very true but there remains some areas in which knives of very different purpose of design perform surprisingly well. The Gerber MK 2 is a great knife for jungle and desert use and was the best knife I ever had for salmon (gray handled L - 6 so I had to watch it around the salt water) as well as it's primary purpose. Too bad the ones they make now are totally different including the use of 420HC.
There's a good bit of flexibility in some of the tools out there but they are just tools. What works for one won't be ideal for the next guy. If it gets the job done is all that matters.
Some people get emotionally attached to every gun and knife they have but I think those are armchair types.

 

[Unknown]

Galuyasdi,

I too used to have one of those early Gerber daggers. I loved the "cat's tongue" finish they used on the handle. It was one of the most "grippy" knife surfaces I have ever used around blood, water, and other junk that usually makes knife handles slippery. I can certainly understand that between the canted blade, and the cat's tongue handle why you liked the knive.

I was young and stupid back then, and often threw my knife. One of the little legs of the guard broke off, and I returned it to Gerber for repairs, and they sent me one of the newer models rather than fix the old one. I guess I understand why they replaced the knife rather than fix it, but had I known that was what would happen, I would have kept the knife with the broken guard.

I completely agree that some knives that are designed for task "A" work surprisingly well at other tasks as too. Most people think of the khukuri as very club like until they spend some time really working with one...then they find that they are amazingly versatile.

 

[downhill]

How about the bayonet for the 1917 Enfield? it could also double as a short sword! Just kidding. Glock makes a pretty damn good field knife. Can't remember the model but good steel and designed as a fighting knife.

 

[dragbag]

I won't give a maker or brand suggestion but will suggest that you think about this: The Tanto, Kwaiken, Kozuka, Aikuchi, Hamidashi, Yoroi Toshi type designs have been around for centuries. They are still around and widly used today for a very good reason. They work! As mentioned by a few on here already knowing how to fight with a knife is the key. You can buy the very best knife but if you don't know how to use it well it can't live up to its design and makers skills. Seeing you asked this question leads me to believe you have very limited at best knife fighting knowledge and training. Again as already mentioned by the good members here the last thing you want to be in is a knife fight. Should you happen to find yourself in one then pretty much everything you did prior was wrong. So I would think at that point which knife you actually had to fight with will do and odds aren't on your side. Don't mean to offend you but just being honest and realistic. This isn't a video game.

 

[suffocation23]

The Cold Steel Peacekeeper and Steel Tiger get my vote. I prefer the Spyderco Yojimbo 2 for daily cary.


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