When do you anneal?

[AuburnBLK]

I full-length resize (every time), since I use an expander ball while doing so to uniform my necks. My results are very consistent with single digit SDs, low ES numbers and more importantly, consistent results at distance.

Eh maybe i'm hijacking the thread a wee bit but this caught my attention. The ol' expander ball question. I use an expander ball in the redding type S but have often wondered if it defeats the purpose of a neck bushing. I've read the full wammy on this one, and am aware some folks order custom sized expander balls.

Groups look great (1/2 MOA at 1k when I'm not sucking). I just wonder if I'm leaving something on the table by not taking off the expander ball. I have't measured it, but it's on my list of things to clean up and make a decision on.

I get it could be defeating the purpose of using a specific sized neck bushing, but some part of me likes knowing the inside of the case mouth is properly uniformed/sized.


ehhhh monday brain knots

 

[lash]

I don't have the level of experience nor experimentation to provide an argument for or against using an expander ball. I happen to believe that there is more than one path to successful precision rifle rounds. Pick one that works well for you and only try to improve it it seems really necessary on target.

 

[AuburnBLK]

I don't have the level of experience nor experimentation to provide an argument for or against using an expander ball. I happen to believe that there is more than one path to successful precision rifle rounds. Pick one that works well for you and only try to improve it it seems really necessary on target.

Very true. The thinker in me has difficulty leaving something alone that already works.

 

[Fursniper]

Over the years I have found that expander balls tend to increase neck runout. Consequently I removed mine from the sizer die a long time ago in favor of finishing the brass prep off with a turning mandrel that leaves my case mouths with exactly two thousandths neck tension and insures that any deformities in the case mouth are pushed to the outside & neck tension is consistent & uniform. Yes, it is an extra step in the process. Does it give me better ammo? I believe it does when comparing both methods with a runout guage. But that's me. Can you make precision ammo using an expander ball? Yes, I believe you can and many people do. It's just another one of those "personal things" in the reloading process that is difficult at times to quantify. What sold me was the benchrest crowd. Spending a little time in the load room of some of those guys and watching them make ammo sold me on the method I use. Those guys are "fighting" for wins where a 1/16th of an inch makes a difference. All I'm doing is banging steel. But I have found that there are things I can do here and there that "tightens things up" with my ammo as I reach out more to longer and longer distances. Does it matter at 500 yds on steel. I'd say no. Does it matter at 2500? Uh, yeah, my experiences say yes, the further out you go, tightening up a few processes pays off as a better & more fun day out in the field!

 

[AuburnBLK]

Over the years I have found that expander balls tend to increase neck runout. Consequently I removed mine from the sizer die a long time ago in favor of finishing the brass prep off with a turning mandrel that leaves my case mouths with exactly two thousandths neck tension and insures that any deformities in the case mouth are pushed to the outside & neck tension is consistent & uniform. Yes, it is an extra step in the process. Does it give me better ammo? I believe it does when comparing both methods with a runout guage. But that's me. Can you make precision ammo using an expander ball? Yes, I believe you can and many people do. It's just another one of those "personal things" in the reloading process that is difficult at times to quantify. What sold me was the benchrest crowd. Spending a little time in the load room of some of those guys and watching them make ammo sold me on the method I use. Those guys are "fighting" for wins where a 1/16th of an inch makes a difference. All I'm doing is banging steel. But I have found that there are things I can do here and there that "tightens things up" with my ammo as I reach out more to longer and longer distances. Does it matter at 500 yds on steel. I'd say no. Does it matter at 2500? Uh, yeah, my experiences say yes, the further out you go, tightening up a few processes pays off as a better & more fun day out in the field!

This all make perfect sense. There is definitely part of me that wants to try things without the expander ball and do a before and after sample of runout.

Could you tell me a bit more about your turning mandrel process? Thanks

 

[TripleBull]

What sold me was the benchrest crowd. Spending a little time in the load room of some of those guys and watching them make ammo sold me on the method I use.

That's a dangerous path to follow. Getting to know benchrest fanatics led me to endless measurement, sorting, neck turning, tool buying and self-doubting.

Then again, I also subscribe to using a mandrel, so there's that.

 

[phxfa]

Has anybody here ever measured your Redding bushing ID or the thickness consistency of their case necks?
I have, this is why I use the Sinclair Carbide mandrel. .002 smaller than the bullet OD,,,doesn't matter if neck walls are different or the bushing is a little tight.
Finishing the neck from the inside makes the most sense to me,,,IMHO and respectfully lol

 

[Fursniper]

TripleBull, If you took it that way I guess I wasn't clear. What I'm saying is after observing BR guys, I took certain procedures and applied limited ones or modified others that I felt would allow me to make better ammo for the type of shooting I do as well as for specific distances I shoot. Yes, BR shooters go to extreme lengths & methods to make ammo. It's crazy how anal some of that crowd is. If I made ammo for what I do the way they make ammo I'd probably have to quit shooting cause it would drive me nuts in the load shack. But what I was trying to convey is that there are things you can still learn and apply depending on ones level & experience that will be applicable to long range precision without going to the extremes of time and methodology that BR shooters do. So I incorporate method as I weigh the balance of diminishing returns in how I load. I hope that makes it clearer. Using a mandrel is just one example.

 

[Fursniper]

This all make perfect sense. There is definitely part of me that wants to try things without the expander ball and do a before and after sample of runout.

Could you tell me a bit more about your turning mandrel process? Thanks

Auburn, I'll PM you this evening...

 

[TripleBull]

TripleBull, If you took it that way I guess I wasn't clear. What I'm saying is after observing BR guys, I took certain procedures and applied limited ones or modified others that I felt would allow me to make better ammo for the type of shooting I do as well as for specific distances I shoot. Yes, BR shooters go to extreme lengths & methods to make ammo. It's crazy how anal some of that crowd is. If I made ammo for what I do the way they make ammo I'd probably have to quit shooting cause it would drive me nuts in the load shack. But what I was trying to convey is that there are things you can still learn and apply depending on ones level & experience that will be applicable to long range precision without going to the extremes of time and methodology that BR shooters do. So I incorporate method as I weigh the balance of diminishing returns in how I load. I hope that makes it clearer. Using a mandrel is just one example.

I was being facetious. As you say, some benchrest shooters take it to the extreme. As a kid, I learned the minimalist approach and lately, I'm trying to get better. A mandrel makes sense to me, so does annealing, neck turning, bullet pointing, etc. Good god, I'm starting to sound like some of those BR guys!

 

[spife7980]

Thanks. Yep, I can see half my reloading shack moving into the living room & set up on the coffee table.....annealing, hand priming, all next to the remote & mini fridge with the beer. Humm, arbor presses are pretty small, wonder if the wife would mind one bolted to the coffee table.......

Just go big and drill the holes through the coffee table if its substantial enough. They are only small 1/4" holes and I just have appropriate sized bolts washers and wing nuts. Takes all of 45 seconds to bolt it down and then its gone just as quickly once Im done using it. And I dont ever really notice the holes any other time. I dont reload a damn thing without the TV on from the comfort of my couch.

Eh maybe i'm hijacking the thread a wee bit but this caught my attention. The ol' expander ball question. I use an expander ball in the redding type S but have often wondered if it defeats the purpose of a neck bushing. I've read the full wammy on this one, and am aware some folks order custom sized expander balls.
Groups look great (1/2 MOA at 1k when I'm not sucking). I just wonder if I'm leaving something on the table by not taking off the expander ball. I have't measured it, but it's on my list of things to clean up and make a decision on.
I get it could be defeating the purpose of using a specific sized neck bushing, but some part of me likes knowing the inside of the case mouth is properly uniformed/sized.
ehhhh monday brain knots

If you have the bushing sized appropriately to give you .002 tension then the expander ball wont give you more tension but it will move the discrepancies to the outside like a mandrel does. It can also induce runout as mentioned previously but it can also not so...
Whats nice about the bushings is that you can minimize the over working. With a regular full die you might tighten the necks to -.006-.008 and potentially more if it isnt a custom honed and then use the expander ball to make bring them to proper size. With the bushings you can swap them so you only size -.003 and then use the expander ball to open it +.001 to arrive at the desired .002 of tension. Is it much in the grand scheme of things? No. Is it less than -.006? Yeah, by half.
I was talking with the folks at forster about honing some normal full length dies and they recommended going .001-.002 under the ball diameter (.003-.004 under loaded diameter) so that they would still work with various pieces of brass that could vary in thickness. Just to give you a bit more flexibility in your work flow without having to measure necks and swap bushings depending on the neck thickness and spring back from piece to piece.

 

[ctso030]

with the AMP annealer , annealing is the easiest step in the reloading process

 

[elfster1234]

So, I'm wondering, at what point in brass prep do you guys anneal? I'm thinking I'd do it right before I prime, charge and seat, but I'd like to hear what everyone is doing. Also, do you anneal and drop into a bucket of water or do you let them air cool?


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I anneal every time. Just posted up some videos showing how I anneal actually at www.epintegrations.com