Same. I just built a 22lb rifle as it doesn’t look like restrictions will be coming anytime soon.
I’d go back to a 17lb rifle for this kind of class though.
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When PRS (or the equivalent) first began
- Thread starter C.R. Adams
- Start date
Same. I just built a 22lb rifle as it doesn’t look like restrictions will be coming anytime soon.
I’d go back to a 17lb rifle for this kind of class though.
Yup my 300WM was basically an ASC rifle. I used it in a couple PRS style matches including the 2012 SH Cup in WY but it wasn't ideal although it did get me take 6th place at that match. I have a 7mm RM now and would love to shoot it at ASC but we were banned. LOL Well I wasn't but I have to stand with my buddy.
A competition series should have two classes of rifles,
Open, which is what we do now, anything you want,
Production, which is as described above
Weight-wise you can go, 18LBS to 19LBS that is no big deal,
But factory rifles have 26" barrels and barrels will have to be replaced, so 26" Max limit
Then, because it is production as repeated, Factory Ammo, and not semi-custom, although I have less issue with that unless you do the Copper Creek custom order. But if you just buy what is there, I am sorta cool with it.
I don't recall having a trigger weight, but that can work, then from there, yes, do a 1 rear bag, 1 additional bag only, and yes tripods are fine.
I called it a limited class, where you limit the gear and the ability to game it.
You can easily do a pint-sized game-changer as a rear bag and then a single pillow and you are good.
If you create a limited class, or Production class this way you have the best of both worlds, a gamer class, anything goes, and a new shooter class / limited equipment class, and it's just two. End of story.
Open, which is what we do now, anything you want,
Production, which is as described above
Weight-wise you can go, 18LBS to 19LBS that is no big deal,
But factory rifles have 26" barrels and barrels will have to be replaced, so 26" Max limit
Then, because it is production as repeated, Factory Ammo, and not semi-custom, although I have less issue with that unless you do the Copper Creek custom order. But if you just buy what is there, I am sorta cool with it.
I don't recall having a trigger weight, but that can work, then from there, yes, do a 1 rear bag, 1 additional bag only, and yes tripods are fine.
I called it a limited class, where you limit the gear and the ability to game it.
You can easily do a pint-sized game-changer as a rear bag and then a single pillow and you are good.
If you create a limited class, or Production class this way you have the best of both worlds, a gamer class, anything goes, and a new shooter class / limited equipment class, and it's just two. End of story.
I never officially got banned either but i was self banned because they went off on me for letting guys SH to air out the issue
But year, 2007 it all blew up, LOL
That is ok, they never really changed the course of fire so doing the same thing every time was getting old.
But year, 2007 it all blew up, LOL
That is ok, they never really changed the course of fire so doing the same thing every time was getting old.
Its is funny that you outlined this. These specs are basically what I am holding myself to this year for all matches with exception to the NF ELR match this year. Kit will be AI AX308 with 24" 308win barrel, factory AI brake, TT 3-15x50P scope shooting 175gr FGMM. I spent a year shooting this set up a few years back and really progressed further as a shooter that with whatever 6.5 flavor was barreled up.
I remember John Cranford and James Anthony in their wierd color camo.
GAP building most of the rifles, and them getting heavier. And I still have one of his first AR10's built on Armalite.
I remember selling my 260 after failing to knock down several Larue targets at the old range by the gazebo. Went back to the issued ammo 308. Cranford and Anthony got 1st and 2nd, me 3rd... damn 260.
Frank wasnt around then. Was still a PI up nawth.
I remember David Tubb and Brand Cole trying to break into that kind of shooting, David's funny half body shooting jacket, and their attempt at a tree reticule.
I remember a Sniper school NCO shot a power line from the tower on the new range.
I remember hating the school bus and those concrete pipes. I remember Gimmillie and and his bicycle helmet for those stages.
I remember Terry Cross, Jim Clark, and Glenn Carline in the motorhome, and the food they brought and Glen cooked.
Later after Frank showed up, I remember running a stage with him and him telling me to get my eyes checked, "that was a hit!".....
At first it was all 308, and mostly stock rifles, and leupold scopes. Then it started to change, then took off like a rocket, and we have all kinds of equipment and calibers that used to get talked about around food and beer time.
Life has been good to all of us going way back there. Lots of good things were created and make the current sport very interesting, to say the least.
The weights and things, was generally you had to carry it all with you mostly, if you couldn't carry it all day, you had the wrong gear. Younger studs could carry heavier gear and that let them handle recoil better and get higher scores.
As the courses sped up and more rounds were fired faster from changing positions, equipment HAD to change to meet the conditions.
We got some nice stuff out of all that to work with now.
GAP building most of the rifles, and them getting heavier. And I still have one of his first AR10's built on Armalite.
I remember selling my 260 after failing to knock down several Larue targets at the old range by the gazebo. Went back to the issued ammo 308. Cranford and Anthony got 1st and 2nd, me 3rd... damn 260.
Frank wasnt around then. Was still a PI up nawth.
I remember David Tubb and Brand Cole trying to break into that kind of shooting, David's funny half body shooting jacket, and their attempt at a tree reticule.
I remember a Sniper school NCO shot a power line from the tower on the new range.
I remember hating the school bus and those concrete pipes. I remember Gimmillie and and his bicycle helmet for those stages.
I remember Terry Cross, Jim Clark, and Glenn Carline in the motorhome, and the food they brought and Glen cooked.
Later after Frank showed up, I remember running a stage with him and him telling me to get my eyes checked, "that was a hit!".....
At first it was all 308, and mostly stock rifles, and leupold scopes. Then it started to change, then took off like a rocket, and we have all kinds of equipment and calibers that used to get talked about around food and beer time.
Life has been good to all of us going way back there. Lots of good things were created and make the current sport very interesting, to say the least.
The weights and things, was generally you had to carry it all with you mostly, if you couldn't carry it all day, you had the wrong gear. Younger studs could carry heavier gear and that let them handle recoil better and get higher scores.
As the courses sped up and more rounds were fired faster from changing positions, equipment HAD to change to meet the conditions.
We got some nice stuff out of all that to work with now.
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I was around,
I showed up in 2002 shot Badlands with Cranford, Terry, etc, Then shot some RO stuff when it was Sniper Paradise Still
Thomas was mad I was there, supposed to be him and I in the bunkhouse and he sleep in his trunk, all 6ft 5" or whatever
I remember Glen Carline, The Pine Cone Crew, etc,
But I was around, shot Tac Pro, Badlands, RO and early ASC
I showed up in 2002 shot Badlands with Cranford, Terry, etc, Then shot some RO stuff when it was Sniper Paradise Still
Thomas was mad I was there, supposed to be him and I in the bunkhouse and he sleep in his trunk, all 6ft 5" or whatever
I remember Glen Carline, The Pine Cone Crew, etc,
But I was around, shot Tac Pro, Badlands, RO and early ASC
SH Cup 08' we all had the helmets with the Team Blaster sticker on the front. Still have it. Better than bumping your head on those pipes. .308 in the picture if I remember correctly. I think that was the .308 only match with the Corbon mix up. I started down at RO in 2004 at the SH Cup. I think that was the first one.
And yup Frank 2007 was my last ASC too.
And yup Frank 2007 was my last ASC too.
Bang your Head !
Cup Competitor
Stan the Man may he rest in peace,
Hauling his 300WM
First Jersey Wearers
Cup Competitor
Stan the Man may he rest in peace,
Hauling his 300WM
First Jersey Wearers
Yup we were a team before the PRS came in with their company "teams" and screwed it all up. 
RIP Stan!
RIP Stan!
Ya. I added the trigger weight as ideally this class is your tactical hunter simulation and you won’t find many, if any of them running an 8oz trigger.
Rgr,
You missed Harlengen TX in 01 and what came b4.
I missed seeing you in 2002 bc that was the year Pop died and I had my hands full, couldnt get out there TX, but i heard the Thomas blow up part from him.
He made 02 sound much like 07. It is good he faded and calmer heads prevailed. Thomas needed to go.
You missed Rod Ryan and Storm Mountain 96-97 where he made you carry everything on his list in a 60+ pound ruck, pure military genre' to his service time.
The 10x SuperSniper scope was a big item then with civilians. The 10x leupold ultra was big army, and the ART was still in guard units. And the crayon eaters were unertl 10x. LE was struggling with a 1" tube 3.5-10-40 duplex.
Stuart Meyers was trying to be the king of LE Sniper world, same shit 02 and 07 drama style.
96 was also the International Super Sniper Shootout, in the CZ republic and Raton NM, which was direct competition with Storm Mountain and the king of the hill drama.
John Plaster was the SSS draw. It was military and police competition them, heavily military weighted.
Jacob was quietly running classes in the background then. Run what u brung....
97 was much of the same.
SSS continued in 98, Plaster got fired in 98. Robert Duhon did Whiteright, TX in 98, with Mike Lau building a m40a1 clone for the prize. That came down btw my partner and John Cranford. Its here now.....
Thomas was present at that shoot and I remember that as the first attempt to put on a nationwide series and the arguments. Didnt go anywhere.
Leupold had a 30mm tube 6.5-20 then and the 1" 4.5x14x40 mildot. Mil scopes were the same.
Life continued 1999, SSS moved U.S. to Camp Shelby MS, and brought in Chuck MaWhinney to replace Plaster. Was in Austria overseas. Status quo.
2000, no changes, status quo on equipment and calibers, scopes, and military genre' shooting.
2001, status quo, SSS still had MaWhinney, add Badlands OK, Bobby, with Steve Suttles.
And Harlengen TX, Snipersparadise Thomas and Jacob. And there was controversy then. NXS was present. Equipment was improving. Jacob was burning out 338 Lapua barrels.
Then Snipersparadise went to Tac Pro in Stephenville. Thomas got worse. Thought I would see a fight.
And that gets us into 2002, where Rifles Only was the place to be.
Rob01, Terry Cross, and a few others here could talk about equipment. Dont need to hear from Cranford and Anthony about Horus, but, they did very well with it. Won a lot of firsts with Horus and 308.
Memory begins to fail, nap time approaches for us old ppl.
Nope, @Rob01 both shot Storm Mountain, just in the early 2000s,
I did the ruck march, 1 bullet at a time, 10 trips to the road and back, I think it was 12 miles or something silly like that.
In 2001 I was shooting more up north, we used to shoot the Hathcock match at Cherry Ridge
I have mixed Rod feelings about Storm Mountain, let's just say there was some exaggerations happening with stuff.
I did the ruck march, 1 bullet at a time, 10 trips to the road and back, I think it was 12 miles or something silly like that.
In 2001 I was shooting more up north, we used to shoot the Hathcock match at Cherry Ridge
I have mixed Rod feelings about Storm Mountain, let's just say there was some exaggerations happening with stuff.
In 96/97, Rod was either taking his meds or the crazy hadn't got obvious. By 2000+, I wouldn't go back, there were times he was full blown crazy and threatening people. And you knew he was lieing/exaggerating bc he was breathing air, jmho....
We might have seen the same things.
I remember you, Greg, and maybe a couple posting about the northern shoots. They sounded like fun, but were a little too far to drive for some of us.
How much were the Cherry Point shoots like RO ? And what was the equipment then ? Historically curious.
Are those shoots still viable, where do they fall in now ?
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Rifle classes or categories.
Old school factory or stock or built to that level, m40A5, or similar,
How does that fit with the purpose built rifles factory prs starter rifles, maybe excluding AI.
How does that fit in Frank and DThomas thought processes ? How far will stock class go, it's hard to beat an out of the box AI.
Curious.
Old school factory or stock or built to that level, m40A5, or similar,
How does that fit with the purpose built rifles factory prs starter rifles, maybe excluding AI.
How does that fit in Frank and DThomas thought processes ? How far will stock class go, it's hard to beat an out of the box AI.
Curious.
The Cherry Ridge matches were Tactical F Class, fewer restrictions on the equipment, but still sporty because it was a pistol target.
They used a 25-yard pistol target at 300 yards, it's a scoring thing, and they drew a small X ring in the head with a pencil so you couldn't see the ring, but had to center the head, I won one of them, I don't have the trophy anymore, just my class, not overall it was broken down into classes.
They were nothing like RO, this was prone timed fire at Cherry Ridge
We didn't have an equivalent up North, just F Class style stuff
They used a 25-yard pistol target at 300 yards, it's a scoring thing, and they drew a small X ring in the head with a pencil so you couldn't see the ring, but had to center the head, I won one of them, I don't have the trophy anymore, just my class, not overall it was broken down into classes.
They were nothing like RO, this was prone timed fire at Cherry Ridge
We didn't have an equivalent up North, just F Class style stuff
I’d be fine with AI rifles and such. Even customs. As long as they make the weight.
Departments pay guys like @Terry Cross to build customs for them.
No need to be factory or anything. Bring on the MPA chassis and such. There’s at least a few dept buying those too.
Very loose rules. Weight. Ammo, barrel length, and trigger weight.
Stay within that and game all you want.
I like your idea, 18.5lbs is basically what a bolt gun with a 26" MTU/M40 barrel, in a chassis weighs with a bipod (just weighed a R700 in an MDT ESS with a 26" MTU, Bushy HDMR2 and Harris with ad-ons. 18.6lbs). Thing is, it won't do guys shooting .308 or .223 any favours since you'd just run factory Hornady or Prime 6 Creed. Hell, I'd just dump all the weights out of the ACCs on my match guns and I'd be at or under 18.5lbs.
Some of us young Hide members need to be schooled, is that how Rifles Only got started, military training? Give us a education’.
This is the coolest thread I’ve read in awhile. A lot of history here and it puts a lot into perspective. I’ve spent the last 2 years shooting as many matches as I can and it’s been fun. Gives me a ton of respect for the guys that were in this during the early days and laid the foundation. Thanks!!
How Rifles Only started is up to Jacob Bynum to educate you if he chooses to. Jacob is a very private person.
He did African Hunter education for Big Game hunters traveling overseas, with all the interesting travel tips of 90's Africa. He had expert instructors cover varied topics on staying alive there, and built a solid business.
Thomas Blahnik, Snipersparadise, came out of the Ranger Battalion at Ft. Benning and wanted to create what we have today. Thomas had Jacob bring his business expertise in to make it begin to happen. Jacob made it happen.
If you follow the 96 to 2002 I posted, you have the overview of where it went. After Thomas left, Jacob went further, built bigger, and with Frank., further again.
Jacobs military contracts are under non disclosure and not open to discussion.
Frank can tell you the competition training parts after he came aboard.
That's what I'll put up for now.
vr
I have the utmost respect for that and really don’t need to know anything else. Whatever happened it is awesome and I would be the last person to invade privacy, I respect my own. It is a snowballing, posssibly out of control thing that is happening right now. It will be very interesting thing to observe. And with all due respect to the elders here THANK YOU
Sounds good, but weight should be more like 14-15lbs max, with bipod and empty mag. 18lbs is damn heavy, and equal to a belly benchrest f class gun.
I agree but I’m not sure a AI would would make the weight.
My 260 is sub 14# with a bipod and mag.
I really enjoy shooting it.
I’m not into PRS at all but this has been a good read.
We were contract instructors at rifles only and originally they were the Horus team too,
we taught classes full time (me there, our history) from 2004 to 2011. Jacob recruited me down there around the 2002 time frame and after several matches getting my feet under me I went to work there,
rifles only started a lot of this though they don't always get the credit.
We'd take the military training and lessons learned and then highlighted in our matches. Later I will find a few of the old videos from then they are still around.
Methods developed there still exist today, combined with the website it was where many got their start.
to the weight guy, AIs are 18LBS, easy. The manners /gap production rifle with weight system is 20LBS that is a comp gun weights are going up not down. This prs they go heavy
we taught classes full time (me there, our history) from 2004 to 2011. Jacob recruited me down there around the 2002 time frame and after several matches getting my feet under me I went to work there,
rifles only started a lot of this though they don't always get the credit.
We'd take the military training and lessons learned and then highlighted in our matches. Later I will find a few of the old videos from then they are still around.
Methods developed there still exist today, combined with the website it was where many got their start.
to the weight guy, AIs are 18LBS, easy. The manners /gap production rifle with weight system is 20LBS that is a comp gun weights are going up not down. This prs they go heavy
Soldiers carry AI everyday.
It wouldn’t be a class to see who can shoot a lightweight rifle better. Just a class to keep the evolving gamer aspect in the open class.
I was waiting for Chuck Norris to hop out of the helicopter in full delta force garb.
When did Snipers hide start Frank?
note the amount of movement we ran competitors a lot
No way! We all know this sports didnt start until the all mighty PRS came in 2012! Sacrilege!
Got the line of Team Blaster shooting. Lol
Ah the good old days. Shoot all day and then head to the office at night to see Flounder spanked and Rogan get a brown stain on his leg. Lol
Something else we should go back to is no match books or detailed info before match. Show up and before each stage you get a brief and then 5 minutes to get together your gear and stage starts. Shot a .22 match like this last week and it was great. Makes you think on your feet.
Stan and Terry were the coolest cats out there to hang with. Even when they kicked our butts.
The issue there is recoil. When shooting for fun... 308's are still fun. Competition is different. Getting in a compromised position with as much recoil as 185's hand out is very noticeable compared to a 105 hybrid.
With rifles weighing over 25 pounds for many these days, recoil isn't really a factor. A friend ran the 185's first year of "Tactical" in a 18 pound Foundation stocked gun and had several top 10's against the open guys. I am a 6mm shooter and believer, but if you want to shoot bigs you can do it with these heavy ass guns.
Agreed. I only half ass look at a cof if it’s posted before.
In a perfect world, I’d like all blind stages and no wind sharing. Obviously blind stages is tough. But I’d like to see a more f class mentality when it comes to wind sharing.
Ha! My 2 seconds of fame getting belted up for the helicopter. That remote control pistol mover was horrible, lol.
He did for NRA Silhouette where the steel targets have to fall for score. At that time, he was also using what he called 6.5-08, which soon became the 260 Remington, for Highpower Rifle (where you just punch holes in paper)
Also remember that he developed the 6mm XC for NRA Highpower in the late 90s
NRA Highpower and CMP Service Rifle were the birthplaces of 6.5 and 6 mm competition cartridges, the 6 mm BR as a mid range prone winner, and the heavy bullet 223 Remington; long, LONG before tactical shooters thought any of this up
Unfortunately you will never see true blind stages anymore as with cell phones people will pass info. Hell I saw it back when the new PRS spawned "teams" and they were passing info that wasn't supposed to be passed through phones. Sad.
