Which 308 dies to get?

[Deadshot2]

Yes, thank you - it makes perfect sense to use micrometer bullet seating dies, and I think I understand how to do it.

What I don't understand yet is whether it is possible to use this Hornady (former Stony Point) tool to assist setting up sizing die, particularly the body die (the Redding set I have in mind contains one micrometer/competition seating die, one micrometer bushing neck-sizing die, and one body die - which is the one I'm asking for help with). It appears from the look of the RCBS Precision Mic tool that I could insert it in place of a case to be resized and use it to adjust the body die for its dimension?

In other words, I'm looking for a better way to adjust the body die than:

1. Adjust the die intentionally wide.
2. Resize a case, measure its headspace (or check whether it loads easily in your rifle chamber).
3. If it doesn't chamber or if the headspace is too large - screw the die in a little, repeat the process.
4. If it does - mark the die position, lock it, and start resizing the brass.

Thanks!

For setting up sizing dies I tend to go real simple. I use the Hornady Headspace gauge insert for my Hornady comparator body

If I'm starting with new brass I just load and shoot to fire form. I then measure the fired case and adjust the sizing die until I reduce the headspace measurement .0015" to .002" from the initial reading. Since I use the Comparator all the time it's just a matter of changing the insert from "bullet" to "headspace" type and I even keep a dedicated caliper as I happened to have a few lying around.

I follow the same process with all fire formed brass.

If I were interested in collecting a lot of "Numbers" I might go with the RCBS tool but just using the simple headspace inserts and fired cases works just fine for me. Once the gunsmith sets the headspace in the rifle, it is what it is. Using a fired case is so much more simple.

 

[RobertB]

I don't reload for semis but when I need dies for my rifles I get a Redding type S sizer and a Wilson chamber type seater.

THey have served me very well.

 

[mouse07410]

For setting up sizing dies I tend to go real simple. I use the Hornady Headspace gauge insert for my Hornady comparator body

If I'm starting with new brass I just load and shoot to fire form. I then measure the fired case and adjust the sizing die until I reduce the headspace measurement .0015" to .002" from the initial reading.

I think here is where I got a mental block.

I don't understand how to adjust the sizing die, after I got the necessary headspace measurements. The case measurement part I think I understand pretty well - what my understanding is lacking in is how to translate that minus 0.002 (and of course I can compute what the actual desired headspace should be) into a new body die position.

Since I use the Comparator all the time it's just a matter of changing the insert from "bullet" to "headspace" type and I even keep a dedicated caliper as I happened to have a few lying around.

I follow the same process with all fire formed brass.

If I were interested in collecting a lot of "Numbers" I might go with the RCBS tool but just using the simple headspace inserts and fired cases works just fine for me. Once the gunsmith sets the headspace in the rifle, it is what it is. Using a fired case is so much more simple.

Yeah, here we're on the same page. I only draw blank on setting the body die.

 

[Sako man]

Razoredgeknives,

Redding is my #1 choice for quality, with Forster at a very (very) close second for #2. The Forster's generally run about half of what the Redding's do, your call on that one. You might want to consider a S/B die, as opposed to the F/L that you mentioned. Just a little added insurance when loading for semi-autos, and that's never a bad thing. Two points here; one, don't ever (EVER!) even consider N/S for a semi-auto. Major problems down that road, it won't improve accuracy a bit, and you'll quickly come to regret ever having messed with this one. And two, you don't need to crimp with the AR. Generally hurts accuracy if overdone (and it's very easy to over do) and really isn't needed, so long as you've got adequate neck tension. Another path with lots of potholes, and no real benefit at the end.

I'd also very strongly recommend a chamber gage, and a possibly a bump gage to assist in setting your dies. With any semi-auto, you'll need about .003" (minimum) of shoulder set back to assure positive functioning, and yet you don't really want to move it back by more than .006" on the extreme end. Pretty tight window there for best results, and the gages will help you get within that zone.

Yeah pretty much +1

 

[gminor]

You might want to consider a S/B die, as opposed to the F/L that you mentioned.

ONLY if you have a custom chamber. If you have a SAMMI spec chamber you do NOT need or want a SB die...

 

[Deadshot2]

I think here is where I got a mental block.

I don't understand how to adjust the sizing die, after I got the necessary headspace measurements. The case measurement part I think I understand pretty well - what my understanding is lacking in is how to translate that minus 0.002 (and of course I can compute what the actual desired headspace should be) into a new body die position.

The process of setting a sizing die or body die to "bump back a shoulder .002" is pretty straight forward. If you use the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge on a fired case then just write down the measurement and subtract .002". The result is then the measurement you will be looking for as you size cases.

Example: A fired case has a headspace measurement of 1.625". The desired measurement on a sized case will now be 1.623". Start with the body die or sizing die backed off a half turn or so, size the case, measure the headspace with your tool and then slowly screw in the body/sizing die in very small increments until this measurement reaches your desired amount. Remember that the threads on the die are relatively coarse so a SMALL part of a turn will yield some fairly large changes in headspace. One turn of the die will lower it about .087" so to reduce your headspace by .002 you only need to turn the die about 1/32 of a turn. If you divide the circumference of the die into 100'ths that means you only have to rotate the die about 3 increments. In short, that means "Not very much" once the shoulder portion of the die contacts the case.

In some cases the die will bottom out on the shell holder and no more shoulder bump will occur. This is especially the case if you have a short "Match" chamber which is purposely cut that way so a standard die gives only minimal bump. Cuts down on the stuff that causes headaches (Math, etc).

The only thing I see might be an advantage to the RCBS tool is that one can set a sizing die without a fired case. That's only a benefit if one is sizing their brand new cases and not many do that.

Bear in mind I offer the above assuming I read your post correctly.

 

[mouse07410]

The process of setting a sizing die or body die to "bump back a shoulder .002" is pretty straight forward. If you use the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge on a fired case then just write down the measurement and subtract .002". The result is then the measurement you will be looking for as you size cases.

Yes, this is the part that I understand.

Example: A fired case has a headspace measurement of 1.625". The desired measurement on a sized case will now be 1.623". Start with the body die or sizing die backed off a half turn or so, size the case, measure the headspace with your tool and then slowly screw in the body/sizing die in very small increments until this measurement reaches your desired amount. Remember that the threads on the die are relatively coarse so a SMALL part of a turn will yield some fairly large changes in headspace. One turn of the die will lower it about .087" so to reduce your headspace by .002 you only need to turn the die about 1/32 of a turn. If you divide the circumference of the die into 100'ths that means you only have to rotate the die about 3 increments. In short, that means "Not very much" once the shoulder portion of the die contacts the case.

And this (the highlighted part) is what I was having difficulty with.

Because it looks like I need to keep resizing -> measuring the case -> tweaking the die, until the measurement gets to the number I want. And if I overdid the "screw in" part even by a tiny bit - this case is literally "screwed", and I need to back the die off and proceed with another fired case... This is the part that I strongly dislike and seek ways to avoid.

If I'd use Redding Competition Shellholder set (a set of 5, differing from each other by 0.002"), can I set the body die by the fired case, and then just switch the shellholder to one that adds 0.002"? I assume that setting the body die to match exactly the fired case (0.0" bump) is a simple and (basically) error-free operation? Not a trial-and-error process like trying to offset the die by 0.002"? An explanation at novice level would be appeciated!

The only thing I see might be an advantage to the RCBS tool is that one can set a sizing die without a fired case. That's only a benefit if one is sizing their brand new cases and not many do that.

That would be a huge advantage if it allowed one bypass that "slowly screw in the body die in very small increments...". And do I understand correctly that it is not possible to use Hornady Lock-N-Load measurement tool for setting a sizing die? I'd appreciate some details/explanation here, if possible.

 

[bigedp51]

mouse07410

The instructions with the majority of full length resizing dies wants you to make hard contact with the shell holder and have the press cam over. Using this method at a minimum the resized case will be .002 shorter than a GO gauge for that caliber rifle. If your rifles actual headspace is .002 longer than the GO gauge you will have bumped the shoulder back .004. The problem is full length resizing dies can bump/push the shoulder of the cartridge case too far and cause excess head clearance. Remember I said at a "MINIMUM" the FL die should bump the shoulder back at least .002, and many dies will bump the shoulder back much more.

As and example my Lee .223 FL die will push the shoulder back .005 further than my RCBS FL .223 die will, and this is where adjusting the die comes into play. A general thumb rule is on a bolt action rifle to only bump the shoulder back .001 to .002 and on a semi-auto .003 to .004.

Below are some cheats for old folks who drink too much coffee and have chronologically gifted eyesight. (I have both the shims and the custom shell holders) You set your dies up to make hard contact with the shell holder and the press cams over, then tighten the die lock ring. You then place the shims "under" the lock ring to adjust the die height and shoulder bump. No guessing, no coffee induced hand shaking screw ups, and no bifocal I moved the die too far mistakes.

Cheat number two, Redding custom shell holders, each shell holder is .002 "taller" than the next one and these five shell holders will let you adjust the die .002 to .010 taller than a standard shell holder.

Cheat number three for normal people who don't drink too much coffee and have good eyes. Get a set of feeler gauges, place a .010 feeler gauge on top of the shell holder and screw the die down until it contacts the feeler gauge and tighten the die lock ring. Measure a resized case in your case gauge and if the case is too long readjust the die "down" with a thinner feeler gauge until the desired shoulder bump is achieved.

NOTE: Used fired brass and cases made by diffrent manufactures will have different "spring back rates" meaning you can adjust your dies with "any" of the methods above, "BUT" change brands of cases or resize older fired cases and you will need to readjust your dies again. When shooting mixed range pickup brass in a AR for instance your case headspace length will be all over the place so you will need to set the dies to give a minimum of .002 shoulder bump and not worry about the shorter cases.

You will not blow up your rifle with sizing errors, you will only shorten case life and have early case head separations if not careful. As an example I had a batch of "NEW" .243 cases that were .009 shorter than a GO gauge which made the cases .011 shorter than my chamber and I did die when I pulled the trigger and the cases did not stretch in the base web area.

This isn't rocket science, you are just making your cartridge cases a "custom fit" to "your" chamber and making your brass last a great deal longer.

And as a side note and why I like the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge better is some cases fired in military chambers will not fit in Wilson type gauges after they have been fired. They will be too fat and you will NOT be able to measure the fired length of the case. The Hornady case gauge doesn't care how fat your cases are and can be used with every caliber thus costing you LESS and buying a case gauge for every caliber cartridge you have.

 

[mouse07410]

@mouse07410

The instructions with the majority of full length resizing dies wants you to make hard contact with the shell holder and have the press cam over. Using this method at a minimum the resized case will be .002 shorter than a GO gauge for that caliber rifle. If your rifles actual headspace is .002 longer than the GO gauge you will have bumped the shoulder back .004. The problem is full length resizing dies can bump/push the shoulder of the cartridge case too far and cause excess head clearance. Remember I said at a "MINIMUM" the FL die should bump the shoulder back at least .002, and many dies will bump the shoulder back much more.

Yep... I shudder to think what such a setting of the body die would do to my extremely precious Lapua brass.

Actually, when I just try to fit my fired case into a body die to see what it's like (not on the press, just a hand fit), the case head and about 1/4" of the body are outside of the die. I can see the case neck where it's supposed to be in the die, so I assume it made the contact with the shoulder. Does this make sense to you? Do I need to validate this by trying to insert a factory loaded round in this body die and see whether it would fit any deeper? Or...? I've no experience here, and no idea what the correct relationship between the body die and either a fired case or a factory loaded round should be.

Below are some cheats for old folks who drink too much coffee and have chronologically gifted eyesight.

YES! That's exactly what I need!

You set your dies up to make hard contact with the shell holder and the press cams over, then tighten the die lock ring. You then place the shims "under" the lock ring to adjust the die height and shoulder bump. No guessing, no coffee induced hand shaking screw ups, and no bifocal "I moved the die too far" mistakes.

This is interesting - but IMHO problematic, because I don't know how far back my Redding body die pushes the shoulder. So I don't know how many shims I need to insert to get the -0.002 number. And I somehow abhor the idea of screwing the die all the way in until it makes hard contact with the shellholder.

Cheat number two, Redding custom shell holders, each shell holder is .002 "taller" than the next one and these five shell holders will let you adjust the die .002 to .010 taller than a standard shell holder.

YES! This sounds like a panacea I've been looking for.

In this case (no pun intended ) I would insert the shortest shellholder, insert the fired case, bring the press cam up, adjust the body die until it makes hard contact with the shoulder, tighten the locking ring (fix the die position), lower the cam, replace the shelholder for one 0.002" taller, and voila! I'm ready to bump the shoulder precisely 0.002" back.

Correct?

Cheat number three for normal people who don't drink too much coffee and have good eyes. Get a set of feeler gauges, place a .010 feeler gauge on top of the shell holder and screw the die down until it contacts the feeler gauge and tighten the die lock ring. Measure a resized case in your case gauge and if the case is too long readjust the die "down" with a thinner feeler gauge until the desired shoulder bump is achieved.

This would be the cheapest method, I guess - as feeler gauges are common enough.

But again, this would mean dancing from the shellholder rather than from the actual case size. Somehow I don't like it. Perhaps it's because I experience this poor fit of the case into the body die...

NOTE: Used fired brass and cases made by different manufactures will have different "spring back rates" meaning you can adjust your dies with "any" of the methods above, "BUT" change brands of cases or resize older fired cases and you will need to readjust your dies again. When shooting mixed range pickup brass in a AR for instance your case headspace length will be all over the place so you will need to set the dies to give a minimum of .002 shoulder bump and not worry about the shorter cases.

Noted. With your "cheat #2" it doesn't seem a big deal to re-adjust the dies. And I'm trying to keep brass lots together, let alone brass from different manufacturers. Trying to be wise even before I actually started reloading.

You will not blow up your rifle with sizing errors, you will only shorten case life and have early case head separations if not careful. As an example I had a batch of "NEW" .243 cases that were .009 shorter than a GO gauge which made the cases .011 shorter than my chamber and I did die when I pulled the trigger and the cases did not stretch in the base web area.

Yes, I realize this. But I hate experimenting on and shortening the life of expensive brass, especially in these days of component shortages...

This isn't rocket science, you are just making your cartridge cases a "custom fit" to "your" chamber and making your brass last a great deal longer.

That's precisely what I am trying to accomplish!

Also, would love to hear your comments on fired case not fitting fully into the body die (with case neck visible in the neck area of the die).

And as a side note and why I like the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge better is some cases fired in military chambers will not fit in Wilson type gauges after they have been fired. They will be too fat and you will NOT be able to measure the fired length of the case. The Hornady case gauge doesn't care how fat your cases are and can be used with every caliber thus costing you LESS and buying a case gauge for every caliber cartridge you have.

Got it! I use both Hornady case gauge, and Hornady Lock-N-Load chamber measurement (how far from ogive to the lands).

 

[bigedp51]

mouse07410

1. Measure a fired case and write it down.
2. Use any of the three methods above and start at + .010 (off the shell holder) and resize the case. Keep reducing by .002 until the desired shoulder bump is achieved.

Don't worry about hand fitting a case in any die, just resize starting "high" and adjust "lower" until you get the correct shoulder bump.

Don't get excited about over resizing, I have cases that are .010 shorter than their fired length because my Lee die bumps the shoulder back .005 too much. I just fired these cases and everything was fine, remember I have seen brand new cases that were .012 shorter than the chamber and these fired without problem. You just don't want to fire cases like this with max loads because they can stretch and thin in the base web area of the case. Once the case is fire formed to your chamber "then" you work on minimum shoulder bump and this normally means the die is not touching the shell holder.

 

[bruddah]

Please excuse my ignorance as I've JUST started loading for rifle cases lately, though I've reloaded straight walled pistol cases for over 20 years.

Are you saying NOT to adjust the sizing die so that it cams over against the shell holder?

Is that going to ruin my 308 cases?

I've reloaded about 1,000 .223/5.56 brand new and once fired cases for my ARs this way one time without issue using a set of RCBS AR dies. Will it cause a problem in a bolt action 308?

Any and all feedback GREATLY appreciated!

 

[Pinecone]

If you load for multiple ARs, doing what you are doing may be REQUIRED. For my gas guns, I reload to fit properly in a case gauge. That way I can be assured that they will work in any firearm. I had to rework over 1000 rounds because my new Colt LE6920 would not chamber rounds that fit in my other rifles.

You are working the brass more, and will get fewer reloadings out of them, but gas guns are harder on the brass anyway.

 

[Pinecone]

Because it looks like I need to keep resizing -> measuring the case -> tweaking the die, until the measurement gets to the number I want. And if I overdid the "screw in" part even by a tiny bit - this case is literally "screwed", and I need to back the die off and proceed with another fired case... This is the part that I strongly dislike and seek ways to avoid.

That would be a huge advantage if it allowed one bypass that "slowly screw in the body die in very small increments...". And do I understand correctly that it is not possible to use Hornady Lock-N-Load measurement tool for setting a sizing die? I'd appreciate some details/explanation here, if possible.

Yes, this is what you do. And if you go too far, not a big deal, the case is not ruined.

In fact, what I do when I get close, is each time I check the setting, I use a fired case that has not been sized. Once you size it a bit, and then size it a bit more, the sizing/spring back will be different. Any longer cases, get sized once more to get them to the proper size.

You cannot use the tool to just set the die. But you need some case measuring setup to measure the shoulder bump.

 

[bigedp51]

Please excuse my ignorance as I've JUST started loading for rifle cases lately, though I've reloaded straight walled pistol cases for over 20 years.

Are you saying NOT to adjust the sizing die so that it cams over against the shell holder?

Is that going to ruin my 308 cases?

I've reloaded about 1,000 .223/5.56 brand new and once fired cases for my ARs this way one time without issue using a set of RCBS AR dies. Will it cause a problem in a bolt action 308?

Any and all feedback GREATLY appreciated!

bruddah

Setting the dies up per the instructions and having the press cam over pushes the shoulder back the "maximum" amount possible and ensures the cartridge case will chamber in any rifle.

Adjusting the dies for minimum shoulder bump makes your cases a custom fit in "YOUR" chamber.

We live in a plus and minus world, I have five different .223 full length resizing dies and each die will bump the shoulder back a different amount.

I have two AR15 rifles and one .223 bolt action rifle and each chamber has a different headspace length.

Adjusting "YOUR" full length resizing dies for minimum shoulder bump extends case life and improves accuracy.

My first full length .223 resizing die was made by Lee and when the die was adjusted to make hard contact with the shell holder and reaching press cam over my resized cases were .005 shorter in headspace than factory loaded ammunition. This Lee die when reaching cam over made the cases .010 shorter than chamber headspace and "OVER RESIZED" these case by .007 to .008.

This Lee die was the deciding factor for me to stop using Wilson case gauges and buy the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. My Vernier calipers have a dial indicator, it is very easy to "see" the dial pointer and makes die adjustment far more accurate for me. (I have chronologically gifted eyesight)

The .308 cases below were full length resized with the press reaching cam over and maximum shoulder bump. The article did not state what the actual headspace of the test rifle was set at so we do not know how excessive the shoulder bump was. Therefore this in just a "ball park" estimate of case life and every rifle would be different along with your dies and sizing methods.

 

[Deadshot2]

Please excuse my ignorance as I've JUST started loading for rifle cases lately, though I've reloaded straight walled pistol cases for over 20 years.

Are you saying NOT to adjust the sizing die so that it cams over against the shell holder?

Is that going to ruin my 308 cases?

I've reloaded about 1,000 .223/5.56 brand new and once fired cases for my ARs this way one time without issue using a set of RCBS AR dies. Will it cause a problem in a bolt action 308?

Any and all feedback GREATLY appreciated!

Everyone here was "New" at one time. Try not to overthink the process. It's not as complicated as it sometimes looks. The only time you will have an immediate problem with a case that's sized to the minimum SAAMI headspace is when you also have a primer pocket that is at the deepest tolerance. I've had a few loads fail to fire when that has occured due to a primer pocket uniformer that was at it's maximum end of the spec.

One thing certain, that case you may have shortened a little too much during setup will be right back at the proper length as soon as you fire it the next time. As the chart posted shows, cases take more than one firing to fail when they have extra headspace. Sneak up on the setting and you won't be ruining any cases.

As for the "tool"? I see it as more of a "Solution looking for a problem". Once you have a die set, lock the ring and don't look back. A far more useful investment for those not using a Hornady single stage with the LNL adapters, get the conversion bushing that fits any press with a 1-1/4" threaded bushing that reduces the hole to 7/8"-14 for standard dies (RCBS Rock Chuckers are one example). This allows you to set a die and change it with a quick turn/unlock/remove and insert/turn/lock. Settings hold for sizing, seating, and crimp dies if you use one. A whopping $20 in most shops.

 

[bruddah]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
Much appreciated.

 

[mouse07410]

Likewise - much appreciated!

And based on the wisdom shared above (as I understood it ) , RCBS Competition Shellholder set is the best solution. Simplest, most straightforward. Only disadvantage - it is a caliber-specific solution (so may need more than one set, for $46 each).

2nd best would be using the Skip's Machine Die Shims, but with a slightly different method: select shims to make a total offset of 0.002", set the die with the shims under the locking ring for hard contact with the shoulder (not the shellholder!), lock the die, remove the shims, now the die will bump the shoulder by exactly 0.002". The most cost-effective solution, as only one set would serve all the calibers.

And of course the case should be lube'd before body resizing, no matter what. Correct?

Thank y'all again! Great learning!

 

[bigedp51]

mouse07410

I have one RCBS Precision Mic and I will NEVER buy another, you would think the zero reference mark would be the length of the GO headspace gauge but they are not. The RCBS Precision Mic is a comparator gauge and my zero mark reads .004 low with my GO gauge. I contacted RCBS and they said they are not calibrated with a GO gauge and are for comparing cases only. The Hornady cartridge headspace gauge is the most bang for the buck and it fits all calibers, meaning you do NOT need to buy separate gauges for each caliber.

I also have skips shims, you set the die up to make hard contact with the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down and then tighten the set screw on the lock ring. You then "add" the shims under the lock ring to get the correct shoulder bump.

The advantage of the custom shell holders is they make hard contact with the die, and with a lubed case in the shell holder during setup they help center the die in the threads of the press and thus less less bullet runout. A air gap under the die during setup or skips shims can cause the die to be locked down off center and induce bullet runout.

 

[mouse07410]

mouse07410
I also have skips shims, you set the die up to make hard contact with the shell holder and tighten the lock ring down and then tighten the set screw on the lock ring. You then "add" the shims under the lock ring to get the correct shoulder bump.

The advantage of the custom shell holders is they make hard contact with the die, and with a lubed case in the shell holder during setup they help center the die in the threads of the press and thus less less bullet runout. A air gap under the die during setup or skips shims can cause the die to be locked down off center and induce bullet runout.

I fully understand your point about Hornady tool. I bought this tool, and like it.

I don't understand the die setting - because as I said above, my fired case does not fit in the die by approximately 1/4". There's no way I can compensate for that by either shims or custom shell holders. So if I adjust the die to make hard contact with the shell holder and then try to squeeze my fired case into it, I think it would ruin it for sure.

The only reasonable approach in this case (no pun intended ) seems to me to set the die by the fired case with the shortest/thinnest shell holder, and then switch to the next thicker shell holder, thus providing the necessary 0.002" shoulder bump.

 

[Deadshot2]

I fully understand your point about Hornady tool. I bought this tool, and like it.

I don't understand the die setting - because as I said above, my fired case does not fit in the die by approximately 1/4". There's no way I can compensate for that by either shims or custom shell holders. So if I adjust the die to make hard contact with the shell holder and then try to squeeze my fired case into it, I think it would ruin it for sure.

The only reasonable approach in this case (no pun intended ) seems to me to set the die by the fired case with the shortest/thinnest shell holder, and then switch to the next thicker shell holder, thus providing the necessary 0.002" shoulder bump.

I think you have some things confused. First, you want to use the thickest shell holder to set your die if you're using that method. As the shell holders get thinner they allow the case to travel farther into the die thus setting the shoulder back.

As for your case being 1/4" too long for the die, are you taking into consideration the amount of case that fits in the shell holder?


What I would suggest is to pick up some range brass, clean it up, and experiment. Use some brass that you don't care if you destroy. Once you get the hang of it with the practice brass you can then tackle the "good stuff".

Actual sizing of brass and playing with the die will reveal some of the "mysteries" you are having trouble with.

 

[mouse07410]

I think you have some things confused.

You bet!

First, you want to use the thickest shell holder to set your die if you're using that method. As the shell holders get thinner they allow the case to travel farther into the die thus setting the shoulder back.

Darn... I had it backwards... Thanks for catching it!

As for your case being 1/4" too long for the die, are you taking into consideration the amount of case that fits in the shell holder?

I did not!! Silly me. Back to the "proving ground".

What I would suggest is to pick up some range brass, clean it up, and experiment. Use some brass that you don't care if you destroy. Once you get the hang of it with the practice brass you can then tackle the "good stuff".

WILCO

Now there's no range brass where I shoot - brass became precious. So no way I can find 338 Lapua to experiment with. But I have plenty of .308 brass that I can play with, and afford destroying a few in the process. In fact, they were going to be my test subjects for annealing: planning to do that with a Hornady case holder inserted in a cordless drill, over propane torch - or maybe even a gas stove (comments?).

Actual sizing of brass and playing with the die will reveal some of the "mysteries" you are having trouble with.

​Thank you!

 

[Deadshot2]

Now there's no range brass where I shoot - brass became precious. So no way I can find 338 Lapua to experiment with. But I have plenty of .308 brass that I can play with, and afford destroying a few in the process. In fact, they were going to be my test subjects for annealing: planning to do that with a Hornady case holder inserted in a cordless drill, over propane torch - or maybe even a gas stove (comments?).




​Thank you!

Before you run out a buy a Hornady annealing tool, first check your tool box. Do you have a cordless drill? A Bernz-O-Matic Torch or similar? If so you're almost there.

Look for a heavy "Deep Socket" that your case will just slip into and leave the top 1/4 of the case wall (excluding shoulder and neck) exposed. Add an adapter that will allow you to turn the socket with the drill. I found one in a cheap "zipper pouch tool kit" that I got years ago. One end was a 1/4" hex shaft that fit in a screwdriver handle and the other was a 3/8" square socket drive.

You now have the equivalent of the Hornady tool and most people can either scrounge these from their own tool boxes or at the worst, from the tool section at Wal-Mart for less money. I lucked out and had an "Impact Socket" that fit the task and it's about twice as thick as a regular socket. Makes a great "heat sink".

I would use a torch over a camp stove. Easier to concentrate flame on the shoulder area. When annealing, point the flame at the shoulder itself and let the heat migrate on it's own into the thinner metal of the neck. Heat tends to concentrate on the edges of a piece of metal being heated/ welded so you get better heat control this way than if you just "flamed" the neck itself.

With a clean, shiny, case (easier to see color changes) just rotate the case in the torch flame until you see a clear blue line form just outside the socket and just BEFORE the case neck starts to glow. Once you see this just drop the case in a metal bowl or cardboard box lined with some aluminum foil. It's not necessary to quench in water as all that does is give you a wet case. Once out of the flame the case will cool quick enough to keep the base of the case from getting too hot. Remember, you were also shielding it from heat by inserting it in the socket/heat-sink.

If you want to monitor temperature, go to your local Welding Supply Store and buy a Tempilstik Heat Crayon with a melt temperature of 750 degrees. To use it, while heating the case just pull it out of the flame and quickly touch the case wall where it joins the shoulder (not the neck, but the fat part of the case). When you pull the case out of the flame and the crayon just starts to melt you've reached the proper temp. You want the case hot enough to cause the crayon to melt and leave a smear, not so hot it melts and runs off.

Develop a method of counting while the case is in the flame. The old "one, one thousand, two, one thousand-----" method works for me. Depending on flame setting I find that 5-6 seconds with my large torch and 6-8 seconds with my smaller torch give me a nice clear "blue line" on the case body and only slightly discolored shoulder/neck. Too much time and the case neck/shoulder will turn a dirty brown/gray color with a very dull finish (oxides).

If you can lay your hands on a piece of military brass that's been annealed it will show you what you're looking for. Most 5.56 and 7.62 NATO ammo shows the annealing lines clearly. Also plenty of pic's posted.

Sorry if you feel like when you asked me for the time I "built you a clock". Kind of a holdover from my early days as a trainer.

 

[mouse07410]

2735766]As for your case being 1/4" too long for the die, are you taking into consideration the amount of case that fits in the shell holder?

Well, I measured the case fit into the Redding body die accounting for the standard shellholder. It is about 4mm, or 1/8". Less than a half of what I originally measured as "protruding" piece. But still way too much for comfort...

Before you run out a buy a Hornady annealing tool, first check your tool box. Do you have a cordless drill? A Bernz-O-Matic Torch or similar? If so you're almost there.

Yes I have a cordless drill, and used to have a Benz-O-Matic torch - but not sure if I still do.

I wonder what other heat source I could use. For example, would a natural gas stove/range work? Or do I have to use a Benz-O-Matic torch?

I would use a torch over a camp stove. Easier to concentrate flame on the shoulder area. When annealing, point the flame at the shoulder itself and let the heat migrate on it's own into the thinner metal of the neck. Heat tends to concentrate on the edges of a piece of metal being heated/ welded so you get better heat control this way than if you just "flamed" the neck itself.

I understand. Camp stove was not on my mind - but I was considering whether I could use other "more available" flame sources such as gas stove/range...

You now have the equivalent of the Hornady tool and most people can either scrounge these from their own tool boxes or at the worst, from the tool section at Wal-Mart for less money. I lucked out and had an "Impact Socket" that fit the task and it's about twice as thick as a regular socket. Makes a great "heat sink".

Yeah, I see your point perfectly. [Un?]fortunately I already have the Hornady tool, plus another hand-made socket for 338LM cases.

If you want to monitor temperature, go to your local Welding Supply Store and buy a Tempilstik Heat Crayon with a melt temperature of 750 degrees. To use it, while heating the case just pull it out of the flame and quickly touch the case wall where it joins the shoulder (not the neck, but the fat part of the case). When you pull the case out of the flame and the crayon just starts to melt you've reached the proper temp. You want the case hot enough to cause the crayon to melt and leave a smear, not so hot it melts and runs off.

I have a liquid Tempilaq, planned to mark the inside of the case neck with it - so two questions here. One - do I want 750 or 650 degrees (I thought I saw somewhere the 650 degrees)? Another one - how badly does this process (take the case out of the flame, test with crayon, put it back in) offset/impact/hurt the timing?

Develop a method of counting while the case is in the flame. The old "one, one thousand, two, one thousand-----" method works for me. Depending on flame setting I find that 5-6 seconds with my large torch and 6-8 seconds with my smaller torch give me a nice clear "blue line" on the case body and only slightly discolored shoulder/neck. Too much time and the case neck/shoulder will turn a dirty brown/gray color with a very dull finish (oxides).

Oh, this is not a concern for me - multiple chiming timers (including a couple on iPhone and Android, plus a professional one that musicians use - and yes I used to play a musical instrument in addition to firearms ), plus the old "one thousand, two thousand,..." method.

Sorry if you feel like when you asked me for the time I "built you a clock". Kind of a holdover from my early days as a trainer.

As you probably figured from my questions - building a clock is precisely my intention. So I'm very grateful for answering my current questions, questions that I would obviously ask next, and questions that I don't know yet to ask but relevant to the process. Please accept my gratitude, and don't hesitate to provide more information than what I appear to be asking.

​Thank you!

 

[Deadshot2]

Just a couple of notes rather than Point by Point

A torch is easier as a stove flame forces you to lay the tool on it's side. More of a risk that the case will fall out while you're annealing.

Tempilac or Tempilstik, no matter. I find that painting all that tempilac is a PITA and for me not necessary. After a couple of goes at annealing a case, checking with crayon, and keeping track of flame time, I don't even need the crayon. If you put the case in the flame, rotate it until the color band just starts to form and quickly check with the crayon you can then return to the flame for more heat with no problem. Just adjust the initial time upward if you didn't get enough heat the first time. If you 'flamed' for 5 seconds and the case didn't get hot enough then flame the next one for 6, etc until your check gives you the desired heat.

As to what "Temp" is correct? Everyone seems to have their own favorite. Some use a low temperature tempilac and paint it on the case about half way to the case head. The idea with this is to stop when the middle of the case reaches the lower temp so they can stop. Others use the higher temp and paint it in the neck.

I don't know if my method is right, wrong, good, better, best, but I do know that my annealed cases yield SD's of 6-8 fps and last for at least a dozen or more load/fire cycles.

Find a method that works for you, stay consistent, and enjoy.

FWIW, if you don't have a torch, buy one. They're inexpensive and the best way I've found. Doesn't even need to be a big brand name, just a propane torch. Here's one for $15 at Lowes

 

[ArmyJerry]

here is a good video

Annealing Brass in HD - YouTube

 

[rangeryo]

Did not read all replies, but my vote is in on the Hornady "New Dimensions FL Die set". It's loaded ammo that shoots sub 1/2 MOA out of my factory rem 700 bbl and action, so I'd say it will be all you need for your gas gun. The seater die crimps, so no need for an extra station to crimp.