Which 308 dies to get?

#3
Depends on your end use. Bolt action ,maximum accurate range rifles require handloads with proper neck tension and cartridge concentricity while shorter range ballistics require less prep and precision.

In the very least I'd purchase an RCBS Competition die set in 308 Winchester with RCBS's front load micrometer bullet seater and seater plug (my favorite) and a Lee 308 Collet Crimp die. At the other end, a Redding TypeS bushing die and nitrided bushings for the correct neck tension and the front lpad bullet seater.

You might also want a bump die (for bumping the shoulders back).

You can get by with a standard RCBS FL/NS dies and standard seater but the Competition dies sets are so much better.
 
#5
I have several die sets for .308 from RCBS, Forster, Redding, Hornady, and even Lee.

Recently did a test on each to see which produced the most uniform (by total indicated run out on case and seated bullets) finished round. Used an RCBS Case Master to measure the runout and all seating lengths were measured with a comparator on my caliper.

Here's the strange part. They all worked well. TIR from all of the sizing dies was under .002 on lapua and winchester brass tested. TIR on the seated bullets was the same. Measuring the OAL showed less than .003" variation which could be attributed in part to the bullets themselves.

Of all the dies I use my favorite for sizing is the Forster Benchrest FL sizing die if I Full Length size. Gave the smallest run out and it was followed by the Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension F/L sizing die. The Forster seating die using their old bonanza die design where the case is held in a moving cylinder while the bullet is held in a similar cylinder so they are in close alignment while being pressed together is the best design but the Hornady seating die is similar.

If I were setting up a new Dillon progressive today I'd probably just go with the Hornady CG ND set. They're on the shelf regularly at my local Cabela's for around $40.

The ammo produced with my Hornady Die set shoots every bit as good as what I build using my Forster Bench Rest dies. What's even better about the Hornady set is that one can send away and get a box of bullets for $6.95 and a UPC from the die box. Runs the cost of the die set down to well under $20.

One good feature of the Dillon dies is the ability to remove a stuck case without having to drill, tap, and extract. The die has a built in stuck case remover. Also a carbide expander ball which cuts down on having to "grease" the inside of the case necks.
 
#6
Razoredgeknives,

Redding is my #1 choice for quality, with Forster at a very (very) close second for #2. The Forster's generally run about half of what the Redding's do, your call on that one. You might want to consider a S/B die, as opposed to the F/L that you mentioned. Just a little added insurance when loading for semi-autos, and that's never a bad thing. Two points here; one, don't ever (EVER!) even consider N/S for a semi-auto. Major problems down that road, it won't improve accuracy a bit, and you'll quickly come to regret ever having messed with this one. And two, you don't need to crimp with the AR. Generally hurts accuracy if overdone (and it's very easy to over do) and really isn't needed, so long as you've got adequate neck tension. Another path with lots of potholes, and no real benefit at the end.

I'd also very strongly recommend a chamber gage, and a possibly a bump gage to assist in setting your dies. With any semi-auto, you'll need about .003" (minimum) of shoulder set back to assure positive functioning, and yet you don't really want to move it back by more than .006" on the extreme end. Pretty tight window there for best results, and the gages will help you get within that zone.
 
#9
I use RCBS FL SB dies with a Lee Factory crimp die in the last station. I do all my sizing etc on a single stage and only use the 550 when loading them up- after I get all the trimming and other nonsense out of the way.
 
#10
Asked and answered; Small Base. F/L dies do not resize cases back to factory new, unfired dimensions, but are somewhat larger than this. Small Base dies bring the fired cases back down to very nearly the same dimensions as factory new, unfired cases, assuring positive chambering in almost any chamber. Like I said, little added insurance, which is a good thing.
 
#11
ksthomas said:
Asked and answered; Small Base. F/L dies do not resize cases back to factory new, unfired dimensions, but are somewhat larger than this. Small Base dies bring the fired cases back down to very nearly the same dimensions as factory new, unfired cases, assuring positive chambering in almost any chamber. Like I said, little added insurance, which is a good thing.
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Agreed. And I have found that, in addition to lowering the reliability of your ammo in any semiauto, little accuracy tricks used for bolt actions really have little, if any accuracy improvement in a semi. Bumping the shoulders, checking runout, etc etc obviously DO work-but in a semi I seem to sacrifice mucho reliability for a tiny amount of accuracy that may only be in my head. Just my opinion and if it works for you - run with it. But in my experience it ran afoul of my priorities and wound up being time mostly wasted with a semi.
 
#12
ksthomas said:
Razoredgeknives,

Redding is my #1 choice for quality, with Forster at a very (very) close second for #2. The Forster's generally run about half of what the Redding's do, your call on that one. You might want to consider a S/B die, as opposed to the F/L that you mentioned. Just a little added insurance when loading for semi-autos, and that's never a bad thing. Two points here; one, don't ever (EVER!) even consider N/S for a semi-auto. Major problems down that road, it won't improve accuracy a bit, and you'll quickly come to regret ever having messed with this one. And two, you don't need to crimp with the AR. Generally hurts accuracy if overdone (and it's very easy to over do) and really isn't needed, so long as you've got adequate neck tension. Another path with lots of potholes, and no real benefit at the end.

I'd also very strongly recommend a chamber gage, and a possibly a bump gage to assist in setting your dies. With any semi-auto, you'll need about .003" (minimum) of shoulder set back to assure positive functioning, and yet you don't really want to move it back by more than .006" on the extreme end. Pretty tight window there for best results, and the gages will help you get within that zone.
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I thought it would be good to crimp the bullets in place so the OAL doesn't change as its "jammed" up in the chamber (on semi autos)? Is this not the case?

I have a Hornady OAL gauge with a comparator, and also the rcbs case master... But I don't have a bump gauge, can you explain further?
 
#13
mtrmn said:
Agreed. And I have found that, in addition to lowering the reliability of your ammo in any semiauto, little accuracy tricks used for bolt actions really have little, if any accuracy improvement in a semi. Bumping the shoulders, checking runout, etc etc obviously DO work-but in a semi I seem to sacrifice mucho reliability for a tiny amount of accuracy that may only be in my head. Just my opinion and if it works for you - run with it. But in my experience it ran afoul of my priorities and wound up being time mostly wasted with a semi.
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Thanks for your time input! So you think I should go with a F/L S/B sizing die as well and but suffer too much in the accuracy department?
 
#14
I load for two AR10s in a 550B, use redding full length bushing die and a neck only bushing die, and competition seater for match grade ammo. I use the Dillon die set for my shorter carbine. I don't crimp at all and have no problems as long as the neck tension is proper.
 
#15
No, they don't get jammed back during feeding, unless you've got WAY too little neck tension. Like falling out of the case if you tipped them over, too little. The real problem with inadequate neck tension actually goes the other way; bullets "pulling" when being chambered. Think of the AR as the worlds most expensive and unwieldy kinetic bullet puller, and you get the idea. That sudden STOP at the end of the chamber when they're loaded, will result in the bullet actually "pulling" due to inertia. Firm neck tension reduces this, and that's why you want to make sure you've got enough.

The S/B dies, or any other F/L sizing for that matter, won't cost you any accuracy. Forget about it. My old mentor, Martin J (Jim) Hull used to say, "a cartridge should fit a chamber like a rat turd in a violin case." He was right, too. In firing hundreds of thousands of ten-shot, 1/4 MOA groups over the years, virtually all of which were with cases F/L sized, I wouldn't even think of N/S for accuracy. It simply doesn't serve any purpose, and as I said, will create some major headaches for you. Don't do it, there's just no reason to.
 
#16
ksthomas said:
No, they don't get jammed back during feeding, unless you've got WAY too little neck tension. Like falling out of the case if you tipped them over, too little. The real problem with inadequate neck tension actually goes the other way; bullets "pulling" when being chambered. Think of the AR as the worlds most expensive and unwieldy kinetic bullet puller, and you get the idea. That sudden STOP at the end of the chamber when they're loaded, will result in the bullet actually "pulling" due to inertia. Firm neck tension reduces this, and that's why you want to make sure you've got enough.

The S/B dies, or any other F/L sizing for that matter, won't cost you any accuracy. Forget about it. My old mentor, Martin J (Jim) Hull used to say, "a cartridge should fit a chamber like a rat turd in a violin case." He was right, too. In firing hundreds of thousands of ten-shot, 1/4 MOA groups over the years, virtually all of which were with cases F/L sized, I wouldn't even think of N/S for accuracy. It simply doesn't serve any purpose, and as I said, will create some major headaches for you. Don't do it, there's just no reason to.
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Wow thanks Kevin!
 
#17
razoredgeknives said:
Thanks for your time input! So you think I should go with a F/L S/B sizing die as well and but suffer too much in the accuracy department?
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I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was just trying to relay MY experience and learnings when I was experimenting with barely bumping the shoulders and measuring runout and seating bullets long etc. This is all OK and pretty much standard practice in a bolt gun, and a bolt gun can really reap some benefits from these little tricks. IN MY EXPERIENCE, it made little if any accuracy difference in any of my AR's, and reliability (which I cherish) kinda went down the drain. Seating to the lands makes my AR a single-shot, not fully sizing the cases will result in some rounds not chambering etc. I went full circle and came back to seating ALL my rounds to max magazine length, using small base dies set up to touch the shell holder and cam over, etc etc.
In so doing I now have ammo which will function 100% in every gun I own of that caliber. I don't have to segregate ammo to a single gun except for "precision" ammo worked up specifically for 1 gun, but yet it will still do well in any of them. And still I have yet to own an AR that I can't get sub-MOA from @100 yds with the right loads. I am happy with my results. YMMV
I'm not saying that your accuracy will suffer, I'm saying you can load extremely accurate ammo for an AR without losing reliability. KSThomas does a lot better job of explaining this than I do. I am not worthy to sweep up the spent primers from under his loading bench.
 
#20
Dillon makes hands-down the best dies going for pistol cartridges, when loading them on a progressive press. I haven't really seen any major advantage to their rifle dies, compared to other brands on the market. If anything, I'd probably give the advantage to others, such as the Redding or Forsters we've already discussed.

If you look at Dillon's pistol dies, you'll see immediately that they truly are totally different than any others on the market. They were designed, from the ground up, to be used with progressive presses; well flared mouths at the base of the die, the removable seating punches so they can be removed and cleaned without removing the die from the press, that sort of thing. Combine these dies in the first three stations, and finish them off with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, add in a case gage (Wilson or Dillon) check at the end of the reloading process, and you've got pistol ammo that'll never give you a problem.

Their rifle dies are pretty conventional, and don't offer anything more than what the others will. One thing they do offer is Carbide sizing dies, but they're expensive as hell, and they still require lubrication, just like ordinary steel dies. The Carbide versions are intended for commercial operations, and are produced to provide longer lasting dies, not to get around the lubrication issue. The average (or even the more advanced) handloader loading for himself, would be hard pressed to wear out a set of conventional steel dies.
 
#22
ksthomas said:
............Their rifle dies are pretty conventional, and don't offer anything more than what the others will. One thing they do offer is Carbide sizing dies, but they're expensive as hell, and they still require lubrication, just like ordinary steel dies. The Carbide versions are intended for commercial operations, and are produced to provide longer lasting dies, not to get around the lubrication issue. The average (or even the more advanced) handloader loading for himself, would be hard pressed to wear out a set of conventional steel dies.
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They're not high-end match dies and lack some of the features. That said, the seating die does a good job and IME, does not add to run out. It does not apply a crimp, so you can adjust it to add similar pressure to the shellplate that the sizer is. The carbide sizer is great for the first resizing of milsurp 7.62 brass. They run much smoother than an RCBS SB die when the case is a little bloated from MG firing. They are expensive; I went carbide for .308, but bought the all steel die set for .223. Good dies to have, but not ideal for everything.
 
#23
Well, I was just notified by my wife today that I got a package from dillon... It's my dies. I hope they will work fine for what I'm wanting and I didn't make a mistake by getting them in place if redding or forster?

I will take a look at them when I get home and post up specifics (since I can't remember exactly what I ordered) I know I got the 3 die combo, but I guess I won't be using the crimping die.
 
#24
I have loaded a LOT of rounds for .223 and .308 semi auto rifles. I have NEVER found a need for small base dies.

And some of the cases I loaded was machine gun fired, once fired mil brass.

They ALL fit fine in a Wilson case gauge.

I am not sure where the SB die "myth" got started, but I have not seen the need.
 
#25
Pinecone said:
I have loaded a LOT of rounds for .223 and .308 semi auto rifles. I have NEVER found a need for small base dies.

And some of the cases I loaded was machine gun fired, once fired mil brass.

They ALL fit fine in a Wilson case gauge.

I am not sure where the SB die "myth" got started, but I have not seen the need.
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Well here you go below, and its not a myth, a LC case that was full length resized in a standard die and it won't drop into the Wilson die. The case was then resized with a small base die and it dropped right into the Wilson gauge. A M249 machine gun has a chamber .003 larger in diameter than a SAAMI .223 chamber and the M249 GO and NO-GO gauges are .003 longer than .223 gauges. Some of these "oversized" cases would fit if I paused and let the case sit in the standard die for a few seconds but some of them had to be helped out of the Wilson gauge. I resized them all with a small base die and there after used a standard die "after" they had be fired in my chamber.

If you do a little research in other forums you will find people complaining about 5.56 and 7.62 brass fired in machine guns not resizing properly with standard dies. That being said in 46 years of reloading I never needed any small base dies when I fired new brass in my chambers. I didn't need a small base die until I bought once fired LC 5.56 cases and found out myself that it isn't a myth. A case fired in a larger chamber will try to "spring back" to its fired size even after being resized and you will need a small base die to let the case know who's the boss.

gauge003_zps317ba01a.jpg


Trust me I have three five gallon buckets of once fired 5.56 brass and some of them were very pregnant when I got them.

bucketsofbrass_zps6927af18.jpg


Lake City 5.56 cases are made to higher standards than SAAMI .223 cases and the base of the case is harder, and when they get "fat" a little more effort is required to slim them down to fighting trim.

556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg


hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg


Never say never because there are always exceptions.
 
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#26
bigedp51 said:
Well here you go below, and its not a myth, a LC case that was full length resized in a standard die and it won't drop into the Wilson die.
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I've seen the exact same situation with LC and other brass. I have found far more cases won't fit in the gauge like you show because of a ding on the extraction ring. Stands out like a sore (you know what) when you just turn the case around and try to insert it into the gauge headfirst. No S/B die is going to cure that as the ring is nowhere close to the die, it's inside the shell holder.
 
#27
Deadshot2 said:
I've seen the exact same situation with LC and other brass. I have found far more cases won't fit in the gauge like you show because of a ding on the extraction ring. Stands out like a sore (you know what) when you just turn the case around and try to insert it into the gauge headfirst. No S/B die is going to cure that as the ring is nowhere close to the die, it's inside the shell holder.
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I would like to think after reloading for over 46 years I would know the difference between a ding in the rim and the base of a case touching the inside of the Wilson case gauge. I would also think that I know why I have fine files on my reloading bench and they aren't for enlarging the inside diameter of a Wilson gauge.

My small base die only makes the cases .0005 smaller in diameter but it sizes further down the case. And anyone reloading for a semi spends time filing dings. Thank you for your psychic guesswork on "my" cases.

semi_zpse472088a.jpg
 
#28
I ran into the exact same situation at a match (naturally!) just this past weekend. I had inadvertently grabbed some cases that were fired in a 308 Match rifle, and F/L sized them for the upcoming match. I gaged them with a Precision Mic, to verify H/S dimensions were correct, and processed them all with a Redding F/L bushing die. No need to chamber check them, since I'd used a F/L die, and believed (never assume!) that these had been previously fired in the same Palma rifle I was then loading for. They weren't, but were fired in a different 308 Match rifle, NOT the Palma gun. Arriving at the match, first relay . . . guess what? Won't chamber. They went into the chamber most of the way, but the bolt wouldn't close. Upon extraction, there was a small, but visible amount of burnishing or scuffing, just ahead of the extractor groove. I had some other ammo which got my through a couple strings. The rest, I ate as DNFs. Not the way I'd wanted to spend my weekend. My fault for not checking, but a S/B body die would have cured the problem completely. Nothing "mythical" about S/B dies, and they damned well do serve a purpose. In regular use, they prevent a lot of problems from ever happening in the first place. While they may not always be "necessary", they're usually worthwhile just for the preventative insurance they provide. In my set ups for loading Match ammo for my AR Service Rifles, they ALL get S/B sized as a part of the routine.

Don't want to use S/B dies? Then don't. But at some point, you're more than likely to be "that guy" who the rest of the line is being delayed by because you now have to shoot an alibi relay.

Don't be "that' guy."
 
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#29
Deadshot2 said:
I've seen the exact same situation with LC and other brass. I have found far more cases won't fit in the gauge like you show because of a ding on the extraction ring. Stands out like a sore (you know what) when you just turn the case around and try to insert it into the gauge headfirst. No S/B die is going to cure that as the ring is nowhere close to the die, it's inside the shell holder.
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Same here.

I also found some that would not fit in the case gauge, but trying it later, it fit fine.

And a few that did not drop in, but still fit properly.

I have found that if they do not fit the case gauge, the sizing die has backed out and not bumping the shoulder back far enough.
 
#30
I don't know if I'd call 'em second best, but what I prefer on a single stage press are the Forster micrometer dies. Pricey, but dead on accurate seating adjustments makes 'em really nice. They're my first pick. Those work on your Dillon?

Redding makes another good micrometer die I think.
 
#32
Pinecone said:
I have found that if they do not fit the case gauge, the sizing die has backed out and not bumping the shoulder back far enough.
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In the example I cited above, I did gage the finished ammo with an RCBS gage, and the H/S was perfectly good to go. It was the circumference of the body, just ahead of the extractor that was the problem, even though it had been fully passed through a properly adjusted F/L die. After a trip through a S/B body die, they all chamber easily now, as they should. Case head dings or deformities are a completely separate issue, and need to be resolved independently.
 
#33
ksthomas said:
In the example I cited above, I did gage the finished ammo with an RCBS gage, and the H/S was perfectly good to go. It was the circumference of the body, just ahead of the extractor that was the problem, even though it had been fully passed through a properly adjusted F/L die. After a trip through a S/B body die, they all chamber easily now, as they should. Case head dings or deformities are a completely separate issue, and need to be resolved independently.
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Thank you Mr. Thomas, you reload more precision ammunition than 99.999% of us do and your voice carries more weight and experience.

Not only are case head dings or deformities a separate issue a dent or ding in the extractor groove can cause the cases to be canted in the shell holder and pull the necks off center and increase runout. This is more prominent on rifles that through perfectly good brass away and make you go look for it.
 
#34
"...what are the second best?"

Don't know that I agree with what you think is "first" but I've been reloading since '65, I have a lot of die sets and have used a lot of others. I've measure the run-out from them, sizers and seaters, and have found as much veriation between individual dies of the same brand as between brands. Fact is, they all do pbetter than most loaders , rifles and shooters require. I've not yet found a really good sizer to be matched with a really good seater in any die set. That leads me to tell you what we actually get is luck of the draw, not brand or price so the only currently available dies I would suggest you try would be something from Lee, Lyman, Redding, Forster, Hornady, RCBS or wait for your first choice.

That said, the "in-line", full case length alignment sleeve seaters from Forster and Redding are consistantly very good to excellant if not perfect. The others who call their short sliding sleeve seaters "competition" dies should be ashamed of themselves; on average they do no better than conventional seaters.

I can also tell you that you can have an absolutely perfect dies but produce average ammo unless you have the knowledge and skill to uxe them to best advantage AND know how to develop a load your rifle will like. Great accuracy dpesn't come in a box.
 
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#35
Everybody, great information here, thank you. I have a question though. I purchased a set of .308 dies in the Redding group buy (Type "S" neck sizing w/bushing, Match bullet seating and body die). I was under the impression that most people using bolt guns NS first and then FL after maybe 2 reloads. Now I'm seeing people say to only FL size? I'm not interested in extreme accuracy as I shoot, or try to, long distance. Should I purchase the FL sizing die that houses the bushing since I have purchased them already for the NS die or will the body die/neck die combo be fine to work with. Other than it being 2 steps instead of 1 do you guys recommend I go FL sizing die with bushing only?
 
#36
Ultraman550 said:
Everybody, great information here, thank you. I have a question though. I purchased a set of .308 dies in the Redding group buy (Type "S" neck sizing w/bushing, Match bullet seating and body die). I was under the impression that most people using bolt guns NS first and then FL after maybe 2 reloads. Now I'm seeing people say to only FL size? I'm not interested in extreme accuracy as I shoot, or try to, long distance. Should I purchase the FL sizing die that houses the bushing since I have purchased them already for the NS die or will the body die/neck die combo be fine to work with. Other than it being 2 steps instead of 1 do you guys recommend I go FL sizing die with bushing only?
Click to expand...

Ultraman550, read the note at the end of the Redding advertisement below, if you in fact have just the neck sizer die you can just buy a Redding body die and then use your neck die. Or buy a cheaper FL die and do it in one operation.

NOTE: When you full length resize your cases with minimum shoulder bump the body of the case has less to do with bullet alignment because it doesn't contact the chamber walls. This gives the bullet more wiggle room to be self aligning with the bore when fired.


TYPE S – FULL BUSHING DIE

Full length resizing while maintaining exact control of the case neck is often desirable in one operation. The new Type S - Full Length Resizing/Bushing Die accomplishes this task with the precision you would expect from Redding.
Uses the same interchangeable bushings (.001" increments) as those used in our bushing style neck sizing dies.
The adjustable decapping rod allows you to adjust the bushing position, sizing only part of the neck length when desire d .
Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the bushing to self-center on the neck of the cartridge case.
All Type S (except 17 and 20 Cal.) dies are supplied with both the standard size button and a decapping pin retainer for the advantages and versatility described under our Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Dies.

Note: By removing the bushing and all internal parts, the Type-S full bushing die may also be used as a body die.

All dies are supplied without bushings.
 
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#37
I bought the match die set so it comes with the body die. Just wondering if the FL die with bushing had any advantage over using a NS die with bushing and the body die because it is one movement compared to two on the brass. It looks like it isn't.
 
#38
Just food for thought, I spoke with one of the bullet techs at Redding and they advised that I crimp loads for semi-auto rifles. He said that they usually don't get pushed back into the case from the feed ramp but it can happen. Crimping is a consistent process that assures the bullet is not going to move and is a lesser variable than not doing it. Again, his words, not mine. I have been doing this though and haven't had any problems with accuracy. I just use a light crimp.
 
#39
ksthomas said:
In the example I cited above, I did gage the finished ammo with an RCBS gage, and the H/S was perfectly good to go. It was the circumference of the body, just ahead of the extractor that was the problem, even though it had been fully passed through a properly adjusted F/L die. After a trip through a S/B body die, they all chamber easily now, as they should. Case head dings or deformities are a completely separate issue, and need to be resolved independently.
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Not saying you have not had that issue.

I am just saying my experience has been different.

And as I mentioned, I have found a number of rounds where they did not drop into the case gauge, so I set them aside as I gauged the rest, then when I tried them again, they dropped right in. No explanation, but just what happened.

And I do have an occasional round that would not drop into the case gauge, but would go in fully with slight finger pressure.

Personally, I use "normal" dies. But I do have a Redding SB body die, just in case. But so far, with thousands of rounds loaded, I have not needed it.
 
#40
BTW, for my precision .308 rounds, I am now using the Whidden die set. Bushing FL sizer and micrometer seating.

They seem to work well, and the people are great to deal with.
 
#41
#42
Razor,

First thing to be clear on, is that H/S is a two part process; gun AND ammunition. We have two different definitions here that need to be borne in mind when discussing this topic. First, the ammunition has SAAMI or CIP specs on what is "correct"; a range of around .006"-.010" on where the datum line is in relation to the case head. Secondly, we have the chamber, and the obverse measurement; the face of the bolt to the datum line in the shoulder area of the chamber (or whatever other means are used to stop forward movement of the cartridge in that chamber). These two elements have to work together to determine what a handloader is referring to when we talk about "correct headspace." In otherwords, a chamber that shows grossly excessive headspace when checked against a chamber gage, is no problem at all if it's fed ammunition which is matched to it.

As far as the ARs go, yes, they do have headspace issues that have to be contended with, but that's usually on the barrel maker, and how he fits up the barrel extension. Once on, it's "fixed" but you still have to make sure that your ammunition matches what's in the chamber of that particular rifle. This is why we're always talking about the gages, checking shoulder set back, etc.. It's because these are variables, and ones that you have some measure of control over at the loading bench. Yes, use the gages, verify what you've got coming out of your rifle upon firing, and then use gages to set up your dies to ensure that you're giving them enough room to function, without pushing the shoulder so far back (again, we're only talking a matter of a few thou here) that you're killing your brass. Everything's got to work together, and you're the controlling factor on making sure that happens correctly.
 
#43
ksthomas said:
Razor,

First thing to be clear on, is that H/S is a two part process; gun AND ammunition. We have two different definitions here that need to be borne in mind when discussing this topic. First, the ammunition has SAAMI or CIP specs on what is "correct"; a range of around .006"-.010" on where the datum line is in relation to the case head. Secondly, we have the chamber, and the obverse measurement; the face of the bolt to the datum line in the shoulder area of the chamber (or whatever other means are used to stop forward movement of the cartridge in that chamber). These two elements have to work together to determine what a handloader is referring to when we talk about "correct headspace." In otherwords, a chamber that shows grossly excessive headspace when checked against a chamber gage, is no problem at all if it's fed ammunition which is matched to it.

As far as the ARs go, yes, they do have headspace issues that have to be contended with, but that's usually on the barrel maker, and how he fits up the barrel extension. Once on, it's "fixed" but you still have to make sure that your ammunition matches what's in the chamber of that particular rifle. This is why we're always talking about the gages, checking shoulder set back, etc.. It's because these are variables, and ones that you have some measure of control over at the loading bench. Yes, use the gages, verify what you've got coming out of your rifle upon firing, and then use gages to set up your dies to ensure that you're giving them enough room to function, without pushing the shoulder so far back (again, we're only talking a matter of a few thou here) that you're killing your brass. Everything's got to work together, and you're the controlling factor on making sure that happens correctly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this explanation Kevin, I really appreciate your help and everyone's help on here :)
 
#44
My two dyslexic fingers are not as eloquent as Kevin Thomas so a picture is worth a thousand words.

gauge002_zpsd2792ffa.jpg


Google "Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge" and buy one and you will not need to buy separate gauge for each caliber.

Below, Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge, chamber headspace gauge and a RCBS Precision Mic. I have retired my Wilson case gauges and the RCBS Precision Mic and use them for paper weights.

Picture009_zpsa5f7e7dd.jpg


Using the Hornady gauge you measure your fired case length and only bump the shoulder back .001 to .002 on bolt actions and .003 to .004 on semiautos (not written in stone and are ballpark figures)

If you adjust the full length resizing die as per the instructions with the die making hard contact with the shell holder and the press cams over you are over resizing your cases and bumping the shoulder back too far.

When you bump the shoulder back too far you create too much "head clearance" and the case when fired must stretch this distance to meet the bolt face.

HEADCLEARANCE-a_zps53089f07.jpg


Below is a animated image of a cartridge firing, the primer being pushed out of the primer pocket and chamber pressure causing the case to stretch to meet the bolt face. If the head clearance is excessive you exceed the elastic limits of the brass and the case will stretch in the base web area causing case head separations.

HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif


The .308 cases below were full length resized with the press reaching cam over and no effort was made to control shoulder bump. This in itself means nothing because we don't know where the rifles headspace was set at or how far these cases had the shoulders bumped back during resizing. And this is why the Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge can tell you what you need to know for die adjustment.

308fail-1_zps30d387ab.jpg


308fail2-1_zps3ca31f6b.jpg


I told you I had two dyslexic fingers, when I started this post razor had not made the above post, two finger typing, posting images and drinking coffee is slow work. :)
 
Last edited:
#47
bigedp51 said:
Below, Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge, chamber headspace gauge and a RCBS Precision Mic. I have retired my Wilson case gauges and the RCBS Precision Mic and use them for paper weights.
Click to expand...
Could you please explain how you use RCBS Precision Mic, and whether in your opinion Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gage Bolt Action can accomplish the same thing, setting the sizing die right?
 
#48
mouse07410 said:

Could you please explain how you use RCBS Precision Mic, and whether in your opinion Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gage Bolt Action can accomplish the same thing, setting the sizing die right?
Click to expand...

They both accomplish the same thing. Think of it like measuring he width of your driveway by hiring a surveyor or just using a tape measure. Both tell you how wide it is.

The big difference is in the amount of gadgets and cost for each method.

I prefer to put micrometer adjustments on my seating dies and use the old Stoney Point/Hornady tool. Once I have my OAL to the lands I then just use the same caliper setup to measure seating depth. Haven't used an OAL measured from bullet tip for seating for years now. Just measure one or two finished rounds so I have something to write in my log under OAL :)
 
#49
bigedp51 said:
I would like to think after reloading for over 46 years I would know the difference between a ding in the rim and the base of a case touching the inside of the Wilson case gauge. I would also think that I know why I have fine files on my reloading bench and they aren't for enlarging the inside diameter of a Wilson gauge.

My small base die only makes the cases .0005 smaller in diameter but it sizes further down the case. And anyone reloading for a semi spends time filing dings. Thank you for your psychic guesswork on "my" cases.
Click to expand...

Sometimes a comment is offered for the benefit of those who DON'T have 46 years of experience.
 
#50
Deadshot2 said:
mouse07410 said:
Could you please explain how you use RCBS Precision Mic, and whether in your opinion
Click to expand...
mouse07410 said:
Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gage Bolt Action
can accomplish the same thing, setting the sizing die right?
Click to expand...
They both accomplish the same thing. Think of it like measuring he width of your driveway by hiring a surveyor or just using a tape measure. Both tell you how wide it is.

The big difference is in the amount of gadgets and cost for each method.

I prefer to put micrometer adjustments on my seating dies and use the old Stoney Point/Hornady tool. Once I have my OAL to the lands I then just use the same caliper setup to measure seating depth. Haven't used an OAL measured from bullet tip for seating for years now. Just measure one or two finished rounds so I have something to write in my log under OAL :)
Click to expand...
Yes, thank you - it makes perfect sense to use micrometer bullet seating dies, and I think I understand how to do it.

What I don't understand yet is whether it is possible to use this Hornady (former Stony Point) tool to assist setting up sizing die, particularly the body die (the Redding set I have in mind contains one micrometer/competition seating die, one micrometer bushing neck-sizing die, and one body die - which is the one I'm asking for help with). It appears from the look of the RCBS Precision Mic tool that I could insert it in place of a case to be resized and use it to adjust the body die for its dimension?

In other words, I'm looking for a better way to adjust the body die than:
  1. Adjust the die intentionally wide.
  2. Resize a case, measure its headspace (or check whether it loads easily in your rifle chamber).
  3. If it doesn't chamber or if the headspace is too large - screw the die in a little, repeat the process.
  4. If it does - mark the die position, lock it, and start resizing the brass.

Thanks!
 
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