Just reading the F-tr faq sticky and his observation that the 168 gr. SMK is only good to 600 yards before it becomes unstable. If one wants to reload in order to be shooting out to 1000 yards with a factory Remington 700 Varminter (1:10 twist)...what bullets might one recommend?
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F T/R Competition Which bullet...for F-TR in 308?
- Thread starter boisepaw
- Start date
I would take a long hard look at the Berger 185gn Juggernaut... performs well, and not quite as fussy as the 200gn options as far as loading and/or gun handling. Excellent choice for getting your feet wet. It should work well anywhere from seated to mag length, to seated out to the lands (assuming that Remington barrels still have the long-a$$ throat that they used to...)
I have heard from so many sources that the Juggernaut is an awesome bullet. And I certainly like the BC compared to the 168 gr. SMK. I just gag a little bit at the price.
Especially when I have several hundred 168 grain AND several hundred 175 grain SMK already on my loading bench.
Where is the best place to buy those bullets?
I love the 208 ELD-M but am itching to try the 208 Berger. 175 SMK's or 178 ELD-M's shoot best for me at shorter ranges and lower pressures, but stuffed full of RL17, the BC of the 208's make up the difference at around 600yds. At 1000, no contest, 208's do better for me.
I've been using the 168gr Hornady AMAX, but my local F-Class match is shot at 500 yards.
I've thought about using a heavier bullet, but haven't experimented with it yet. My 26" Remington 308 Varmint barrel is a 12" twist.
I've thought about using a heavier bullet, but haven't experimented with it yet. My 26" Remington 308 Varmint barrel is a 12" twist.
Those 175's will serve you well enough, and I'm using them exclusively both midrange and long-range now.
Whidden has decent prices (and other cool toys):
Berger Bullets - 30 Caliber - 185 Grain - Match Juggernaut Target - (100) - Whidden Gunworks
Mfr Part: 30418 *Orders accepted from US residents only. Please check local laws before ordering.
www.whiddengunworks.com
Buddy that switched from open to ftr is using the Berger 200 20X hybrid. He won out in ND last weekend, beating all the open guys as well as the ftr guys.
I read the match write-ups, that weekend saw sustained winds well over 20mph and still turned in respectable scores at the 800, 900, and 1K events. Those 200's really helped.
PM me your phone number and I can send you a text from another buddy that shot the match. I grew up in Detroit Lakes, and have several reletives that went to school at NDSU.
Talking to another guy who shot out there, said it is the craziest wind he has ever shot in. Chris Longley set a new record for FTR in those conditions. Glad he went over to the dark side so I don't have to shoot open with him anymore...
My pick would be 175 SMK but part of that is copying issued ammo for long range matches. The story we were told is the 168 was designed as a 300 yard bullet and 600 was pushing it's limits. That was why M118LR went to the 175 and a load for 1000 meters.
I'm replacing my scope to make my rifle more useful. I shoot 2 or 3 1K matches a year and get issued ammo at matches. So I am working up a copy of M118LR. If it wasn't for that id probably look at a longer higher BC 175. I planned on trying F-TR but havent had the time.
I'm replacing my scope to make my rifle more useful. I shoot 2 or 3 1K matches a year and get issued ammo at matches. So I am working up a copy of M118LR. If it wasn't for that id probably look at a longer higher BC 175. I planned on trying F-TR but havent had the time.
It's on accurateshooter.com The answer is that 2 guys on the team were running pre release 208s the rest of us were running 200.20x or maybe 200 Hybrids. Scott Harris may have been running the 185s. If you are a competition shooter you owe it to yourself to be on Accurate shooter, more targets, less camo.
If you're not running the 200 class bullets (Berger 200.20x, the 200H, or possibly the new Berger 208) then I'd run the 185Jugg or the 185Hybrids. The 185 Jugg may just be the best bullet ever designed for a 308. If you can't get it to shoot there is something wrong, and it's not the bullet.
@moosemeat if your chamber will run the 175s it will run the 185s, and the 185 will get you to 1000 with about 4MOA less elevation than the 175s. When I started this game in '11 I was running 175SMKs. It didn't take me long to graduate to the Bergers.
@moosemeat if your chamber will run the 175s it will run the 185s, and the 185 will get you to 1000 with about 4MOA less elevation than the 175s. When I started this game in '11 I was running 175SMKs. It didn't take me long to graduate to the Bergers.
Lots of advice above, but nobody seems to be discussing what kind of chamber it is that you have.
I've been running 185 Jugs for the longest time, and at first blush, I'd advise you to do the same... The problem is I have a custom reamer that is used to chamber my barrels and it was developed for me specifically for the 185 Jugs seated with the base of the bearing surface just forward of the neck to shoulder junction on my brass.
It sounds like you have an un-modified factory rifle and chances are a much shorter throat. With that in mind, you will be much more limited and may not find success using what works for a guy with a custom chamber like mine and probably the guys above. Chances are that you will jam the lands with a much shorter overall length and will not be able to develop loads that run at similar speeds.
I suspect that you will find best results with shorter lighter bullets because of your chambering.
I would suggest that you figure out what kind of seating depth you will get with a range of bullets and consider where the base of the bearing surface is relative to the neck to shoulder. Until we have some dimensional numbers, we collectively cannot provide actionable advice.
I would start with Sierra 155 Palma and work your way up in bullet weight from there and you'll probably get no heavier than 175s. If you end up with most of the bullet down inside the case, it will cost you powder capacity and your velocity will drop. Then you'll need to work out the ballistic numbers to see what works out best for you down range.
As a general rule, you'll want to shoot the heaviest bullet you can with the highest BC, but considering your throat you may not get good results with what the other guys are using.
In the end, I would go with what produces the best 100 yard accuracy and play to your strengths. You'll probably do well at shorter distances and in light wind conditions where the high BC of heavier bullets the other guys are using will not provide much of an advantage.
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Very good point.
We shot a *lot* of 155 gn bullets, back when. First B155VLDs, then B155.5BTs. At the time, the S2155MK (the old 'tug boat' profile 155 MK) was kind of a turd in the wind, and the newer S2156MK (the newer 155 Palma) is probably about equal with the 155.5 in my experience.
The trick with the 155s is getting them going fast enough... which isn't as hard as some people make it out to be. With a 30" barrel (but fairly short throat) I was easily in the 2950-3050 range with zero pressure, even in shitty conditions (scorching sun, pouring rain, etc.). Even with a 26" Rem 700VS factory tube (12 tw) I was running 2930-ish, and with a 20" Sav 10 PC-SR (10 tw) I was able to get 2830-2840 out of the S2156MK, with pretty good accuracy.
There was (emphasis: *was*) a common notion that you had to have a 155 going 2950 *minimum* to stay supersonic @ 1k. Suffice to say, with the advent of ballistic calculators... I'd disregard that
155s (155.5 and 2156) tend to have *very* short bearing surface - so unless you have a dedicated short throated chamber, the bullet is going to be jumping a bunch. Luckily, those bullets take long jump *very* well.
That said... you'd have to get the 155 going 3000 or better, to beat a 185 putting along at *2500* fps.
We shot a *lot* of 155 gn bullets, back when. First B155VLDs, then B155.5BTs. At the time, the S2155MK (the old 'tug boat' profile 155 MK) was kind of a turd in the wind, and the newer S2156MK (the newer 155 Palma) is probably about equal with the 155.5 in my experience.
The trick with the 155s is getting them going fast enough... which isn't as hard as some people make it out to be. With a 30" barrel (but fairly short throat) I was easily in the 2950-3050 range with zero pressure, even in shitty conditions (scorching sun, pouring rain, etc.). Even with a 26" Rem 700VS factory tube (12 tw) I was running 2930-ish, and with a 20" Sav 10 PC-SR (10 tw) I was able to get 2830-2840 out of the S2156MK, with pretty good accuracy.
There was (emphasis: *was*) a common notion that you had to have a 155 going 2950 *minimum* to stay supersonic @ 1k. Suffice to say, with the advent of ballistic calculators... I'd disregard that
155s (155.5 and 2156) tend to have *very* short bearing surface - so unless you have a dedicated short throated chamber, the bullet is going to be jumping a bunch. Luckily, those bullets take long jump *very* well.
That said... you'd have to get the 155 going 3000 or better, to beat a 185 putting along at *2500* fps.
Ditto on the 155's. Used to shoot them over 3,000 FPS. Had a guy pulling targets for me once that said, "those are screaming over the target".
The 155's worked good in calm conditions. That being said, used the 185's for a while with success but the 200's have performed better overall for me.
The 155's worked good in calm conditions. That being said, used the 185's for a while with success but the 200's have performed better overall for me.
You can load the 185Juggs to mag length and they will shoot. I won a match at the FCNC in '13 with a load that fit that description. (first custom barrel with a short freebore reamer) It's not ideal, but it will work.
this advice is spot on. as Many have said, the new 208 Berger and the 200.20X are the way to go IF you have the freebore which is doubtful with your factory rem 700. The Berger 180 hybrid may work but work your way up as PracticalTactical said.
^My factory 700 5R runs 208's with a 3.043 coal at 15 thou off. She's got a throat like a porn star.
If you want to run heavy VLD bullets with a 308 seated out so the base of the bearing surface is forward of the donut, you should start with a long action so you can eject a live round without removing your bolt.
I cannot eject live 185 Jugs from a short action Rem 700. It's probably about 0.050" too short and that will get worse with even heavier bullets.
I'm going to disagree here. I don't know of a single F-TR shooter who uses a long action. I don't know ever shooter, but I am on the US team and I've been doing this since 2011. There are some few who seat short enough to get a live round out, but almost every one of us pulls the bolt to get a live round out. Pulling the bolt is not an issue on the competition range. Now were I to be trying to do something like that in a field application then sure, but in anything other than a ruleset that prescribes 308Win why would you use one when there are other ballistically better options.
I'm trying to get geared up for FTR with a Savage FTR with the 1:13 twist. I'm going with the 155.5 Fullbores. My local clubs only have 500yd ranges, the 155.5's are easy to find, they work well in short chambers, and they are pretty forgiving. Once the barrel smokes out, I'll going to the bigger pills, but for now the smaller ones seem to make sense for me.
I don't understand why you would disagree.
I agree that most shooters pull the bolt to eject a live round in FTR, but for the same reason I do... We didn't know better when we built the rifle!!!
There is no benefit to having to pull the bolt to eject a live round and there is no disadvantage to using a long action so we can eject a live round.
I don't use an F Class specific single shot rifle. It's a repeater that I also use for sniper matches, but I cannot use the rifle as a repeater with the F Class ammunition I'm so familiar with. Instead I either jump a short bullet by a ton or swap out the barrel for one that is chambered for 155s.
It would have been far better to have built the rifle on a long action to begin with. That way I could run the same load, same barrel for all applications.
But all that aside, there is just no rational "advantage" that I can think of to not being able to eject a live round without pulling the bolt.
Any downside to having the front of the ejection port "notched" to facilitate ejecting a longer round as I've seen on some rifles (not my pic)?
Other than that's something you generally only see on custom actions. I highly doubt you're going to find a gunsmith willing to do that kind of machining in an area that could compromise the strength of the receiver.
I'm with Wade on this one. For a dedicated FTR rig, stick with the short action. The rare occasion when you *might* want/need to eject a live round isn't worth the hassle of bucking the norm on this one.
I'm with Wade on this one. For a dedicated FTR rig, stick with the short action. The rare occasion when you *might* want/need to eject a live round isn't worth the hassle of bucking the norm on this one.
Please... Sell me on this.... (Assuming we are about to start buying parts for a new F Class rifle.)
a) How is it a hassle when building a rifle to select a long action?
b) What is the disadvantage to using a long action for rounds that are too long for a short action?
I must be missing something here.
^Nope, I agree completely with you, but I'm not a competitive shooter. If I had known then what I know now, I would only have purchased a short action for .224 projectiles. 7mm and up seem to benefit from longer COAL, and while I don't mind single loading, might as well have the option of running a mag.
I think a lot of top competitors are running "short actions" for weight reasons. As crazy as it sounds, some guys barely make weight with their guns. The custom F-class style actions are generally bigger dimensionally than a standard R700, so taking away length adds the ability to beef up the action or add barrel length/weight. Look at a Panda action or a Borden for examples of commonly used actions.
Google search shows this is the different action weights for Rem 700 (not sure if correct), but it's 3 ounces according to what I found.
S/A BDL 2lb 4oz
L/A Bdl 2lb 7oz
But probably more with a more robust action and integral pic rail.
S/A BDL 2lb 4oz
L/A Bdl 2lb 7oz
But probably more with a more robust action and integral pic rail.
Your rifle, build it like you want to.
Weight is a consideration LA is heavier. I run very heavy barrels, my choice, I like them that way. My rifles make weight by grams not oz. If you run a Phoenix bipod, (one of the 3 favorites in the game) they are heavy, you may be limited to a heavy palma contour at most. (and having to pay for fluting on a barrel so you can make weight knowing that is going to last one yr is a real PITA. I've done that once.)
Compatibility with stocks for two. Yes long action stocks are available, but SA are far more common, and I don't think the stock profile is the same just inletted different, I think the LA stocks are longer in the middle. More weight. I'm not positive on that point but it would bear looking into if you were considering it.
Running the bolt 20x for record plus sighters 3x a day. Long actions are, well, long. When I get behind my long action rifles I feel like the bolt throw is a foot. Just what you're accustomed to I guess but cycling the short bolt is less disturbing to the position. You probably cant look a cool as some of the guys running the bolt back with your thumb and catching the brass with a long action.
The reality is that I may need to pull a loaded rounds about once a weekend at most. It's really not a consideration. It's not like F-TR is on a timer (well it is but 20 rounds in 30 minutes isn't too demanding).
Then there is the option of getting a 223 bolt for mid range if you really want to get into options, (One of my 4 F-TR rifles has a 223 and a 308 bolt.)
Again, your build, do with it what you want. If being able to eject a loaded round is important to you then by all means get a LA. It's not a concern for me. All of my F-TR rifles are SA.
Weight is a consideration LA is heavier. I run very heavy barrels, my choice, I like them that way. My rifles make weight by grams not oz. If you run a Phoenix bipod, (one of the 3 favorites in the game) they are heavy, you may be limited to a heavy palma contour at most. (and having to pay for fluting on a barrel so you can make weight knowing that is going to last one yr is a real PITA. I've done that once.)
Compatibility with stocks for two. Yes long action stocks are available, but SA are far more common, and I don't think the stock profile is the same just inletted different, I think the LA stocks are longer in the middle. More weight. I'm not positive on that point but it would bear looking into if you were considering it.
Running the bolt 20x for record plus sighters 3x a day. Long actions are, well, long. When I get behind my long action rifles I feel like the bolt throw is a foot. Just what you're accustomed to I guess but cycling the short bolt is less disturbing to the position. You probably cant look a cool as some of the guys running the bolt back with your thumb and catching the brass with a long action.
The reality is that I may need to pull a loaded rounds about once a weekend at most. It's really not a consideration. It's not like F-TR is on a timer (well it is but 20 rounds in 30 minutes isn't too demanding).
Then there is the option of getting a 223 bolt for mid range if you really want to get into options, (One of my 4 F-TR rifles has a 223 and a 308 bolt.)
Again, your build, do with it what you want. If being able to eject a loaded round is important to you then by all means get a LA. It's not a concern for me. All of my F-TR rifles are SA.
Ditto on ejecting round and pulling bolt. I can count on one hand (well maybe two) how many times I actually had to do that at a match. No big deal.
Keep in mind that F Class in the states is single string... one shooter shoots his entire string without interruption, so you shoot fast, but that is not how other countries do it.
As far as I'm aware, that format is only in the USA and all other countries shoot with at least pairs or groups of three shooting one shot and then rotating to the next in the sequence. This format extends the stage time considerably and increases the likelihood of pulling a chambered round. This is especially true when a top shooter may be in a squad with guys who cant hit the target, which slows things down.
To this point, I have had to deal with it to where it has become a sore spot for me, and as I stated earlier, the rifle and ammo becomes limited to single shot and such a load could not be used from a repeater in the event that you want to use the same rifle for other things.
I run a glued in SA Rem 700 in a MAK tube gun, which is a repeater that takes AI Mags. I don't think they are available any more, but I don't think I'm leaving much on the table as far as accuracy goes. They were available in long action as well, and looking back I would have preferred that. My barrel is quite long heavy and I have never felt there would be an advantage to heavier but perhaps there would be.
Hey, to each his own, I have no problem with that, but at least make the choice with an awareness of the drawback and each person can decide if the trade off is worth it to them.
Not any more likely to pull a round in the ICFRA Full Bore format than in the US string fire format. @milanuk has shot more international than I have but I've shot the format pretty regularly over the yrs (I won SOA in '15 and I've been 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the East Coast Fullbore Championships in the last 3 editions) I shoot pretty regularly in Canada and we shoot it for practice on the team. It's different and you have to adjust to a different rhythm. You don't close your bolt till you're "on" it's not an issue. In fact you really don't want your bolt closed not because you might cook a round, but because if you somehow bump that BnA or Jewel trigger that is set "think about it and it goes bang" light while you are futzing around scoring for your neighbor you're gonna take a miss and probably a penalty.
Just like every competition whether it's motorcycles, cars, sailing, pistols or rifles, if you choose to participate and compete with a tool that is not purpose built for the application you are handicapping your self, at least a little. Bullseye pistols are not ideal for IPSC and visa versa. An IMOCA60 isn't the best choice for a Wed night beer can race, and PRS rigs are not the best choice for F class, though they can compete in F class where a dedicated single shot F class rifle cannot in PRS.
The solution is to build more than one rifle. *looks into my closet/safe/reloading room* Just be careful.
Just like every competition whether it's motorcycles, cars, sailing, pistols or rifles, if you choose to participate and compete with a tool that is not purpose built for the application you are handicapping your self, at least a little. Bullseye pistols are not ideal for IPSC and visa versa. An IMOCA60 isn't the best choice for a Wed night beer can race, and PRS rigs are not the best choice for F class, though they can compete in F class where a dedicated single shot F class rifle cannot in PRS.
The solution is to build more than one rifle. *looks into my closet/safe/reloading room* Just be careful.
Getting ready to shoot my first ever F-tr on March 13th at Red Castle gun club in Tulsa. Projectiles I have are 168hr smk, 175gr smk, 190gr smk, 220 gr smk, 178 eld.
Which should I use?
Which should I use?
