Which Red Dot for Pistol, NV compatible.

[FatBoy]

After last weeks night 2gun I have finally come to the conclusion that I need to at least properly try a pistol red dot. The irons were just too hard to align on 5”x5” flippers under a flashlight.

I have a couple RMRs piggybacked in URGI-ish builds and I like them enough for that but I am considering going a different direction on the pistol.

Pistol is used for 3 gun and run and guns.

Pistol will 100% be under muddy water multiple times per run and run.

2-5 night matches per year, about the same for day matches.

Rain or shine, we shoot.

I will be moving from white light to Nightvision later this year and it needs to be a good candidate for passive aiming

Already have Safariland for G34, Prodigy and M17 with red dot. Probably going to use a gen3 G17 w/o MOA cut (dovetail plate mount) for now but may try the Prodigy as well.

Have been looking at:

ACRO p2 ( concerned about FOV)

Holosun 509 (have reservations on China and reliability)

RMR ( open emitter, not in love with distortion but I can live with it)

507Comp (same shit as 509)

Leupold DPP NV (no real opinion)

Also, thinking I really want back up irons. If not to start, eventually.

Having only shot behind the RMR on a pistol I am fucking paralyzed by analysis. Could use for advice from though who regularly shoot in the rain, and use NODs.

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Millennium200]

Delta Pro

 

[BurtG]

A lot of RKI like acro.

I haven’t bought one yet.


Love my SRO for gas gun matches but prolly not durable enough for you. I do have the metal shield on it

The

 

[Milirad]

I really like the Shield RMSx because it has the largest window/field of view I have owned so far, it is glass so doesn't scratch as easy as poly and is very accurate. Very clear sight picture and a nice dot. I prefer the 4MOA and they have an 8MOA. Lots of frame colors if that matters. I haven't used it with night vision so haven't tried that setting, but the specs say it is compatible.

The other large window/FOV open red dot I like is the Leupold Delta Point Pro. It's not quite as large as the RMSx, but it is larger than most and is very nice. There are a bunch of models and two are NV compatible - Delta Point Pro NV and Delta Point Pro NV FDE (flat dark earth color).

It's hard to find the RMSx in gun shops to try before buying, but the Delta Point Pro is available in some shops. FWIW I like the RMSx just a little better due to the increase in window size but both are great.

 

[JR1200W3]

I have or have had all those.

Number one, I can't stand RMRs anymore. The window is tiny and the housing is thick. Yes, you can shoot with two eyes open and use it, but it's a soda straw. Couple that with it's color distortion and irons in the FOV and it sucks. If you start off with an RMR and never shoot a bigger RDS you'll be happy but once you start using bigger, clear windows it will be hard to look at an RMR again.

Holosun. I can't help you with the Chinese part, valid concern. But as far as 509t durability, that's not a valid concern. They are tough. I do like that they are a closed emitter, have a good sized window, and have a shake awake function. Between the solar panel and the battery saving shake awake the batteries last forever. In fact, if your battery happened to die while you were shooting on a bright day you wouldn't know it bc the solar panel would just power it. Also doesn't require removal to swap batteries. The one Con is it is a proprietary mount and on most footprints you have to use their steel adapter plate which adds weight and height.

Leupold DPP. (How do we know this isn't as Chinese as a 509t?) Shake awake, top loading battery, big window, proprietary but more common footprint, has a rear iron sight dovetail. It's a good optic. The only thing I kind of disliked about it was the brightness adjustment is a button in the center of the optic that to press, your finger will block the fov. So you have a press, press, look, press, press, look kind of situation. Not a big deal but a thing. I did find the lens easy to scratch however. I scratched mine and have no idea how it happened. It's right in the dot and was kinda distracting.

The SRO is probably my favorite non-enclosed emitter RDS. Big window, common footprint, top loading battery, easy adjustment buttons. Things I don't like is it doesn't have shake awake, it just bumps the dot intensity to a lower brightness setting when not used for a while. A consideration is that the hood hangs over the front of the footprint, so this could be hanging over the slide or it could be hanging over your ejection port depending on the pistol.

I just bought a used XC that came with an Acro P2. I always thought it's a ridiculous optic for a pistol. I've been trying it out over the last two weeks. It ain't bad. It's big. The button-ology is fine. It exudes quality. And just like Trijicons and other aim points it lacks options like shake awake. It's just on. All the time. At whatever intensity you leave it at. Zero adjustment are very tactile and repeatable. It's FOV doesn't compare as well as a DPP or an SRO. I'd say it's about like a 509t. Totally usable. Also has a more rare proprietary footprint so it will require an adapter plate. I will probably take it off at some point and mount it on a subgun. I think it makes a lot more sense on something like a B&T GHM9 or an MP5 clone. I'll probably replace it with an SRO.

My top recommendation for you would be the DPP or SRO. I'd let the footprint and SRO/ Hood/ ejection port considerations decide for you.

 

[the_assman]

acro p2 is what you seek

 

[FatBoy]

acro p2 is what you seek

This is how I’m leaning, and my gut feeling is since I’m fairly used to the RMR on a piggyback my “pencil tube” concern with the ACRO may not be an issue.

I like the idea of the 509s. Thinner wall, seemingly larger window, etc but probably not at nice a dot under Nods.

My son in law has an ACRO that he doesn’t have mounted and I think he’s going to send it up for testing.

As an admitted dot laymen , I think it would be nice to have and enclosed DPP.

@JR1200W3 ,

A heads up, The ACRO I have coming up for testing was bought for a that PCC. Scalerworks mount didn’t work. Thumb screw hits the receiver.

Really appreciate all the feedback.

 

[sheepdog697]

I've used RMR, SRO, and DPP NV. They all work just fine and light transmission is nearly identical on all three. I currently run the DPP NV because it run staccatos and that's their native footprint (doesn't require a plate). This will probably be more subjective than anything.

It's worth nothing that the rmr has proven to be more rugged than the DPP, and you have a higher likelihood of bumping shit under nods.

 

[JR1200W3]

Just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth. But I think the durability requirements are a little oversold on these optics. I am betting any of them would be plenty durable enough for normal civilian competition use. I first started using Red dot sights piggybacked on low power variable optics during combat deployments in 2004. Plastic J points on nightforce 2.5x10s. And then metal housed doctor sites on articulated elcans a couple years later in Afghanistan. Climbing walls, carrying breaching equipment, getting in and out of vehicles, wrestling with shitheads.... never broke one of those. In fact, I still have those two original J points sitting on my shelf.

 

[FatBoy]

Durability from impact damage doesn’t really concern me. It’s water.

Buddy ran a j-point for years. Still has it as well but you can’t see through it anymore as the lens looks sand blasted.


This kind of shit is why I have concerns about open emitters. Every one of these had the pistol completely under water several tiles per match. Mostly muddy, nasty shit. This also has me sticking with a G17 instead of running my Prodigy, which I shout better. I just don’t know that it’ll handle the silt in the trigger, etc.

 

[JR1200W3]

Durability from impact damage doesn’t really concern me. It’s water.

Buddy ran a j-point for years. Still has it as well but you can’t see through it anymore as the lens looks sand blasted.


This kind of shit is why I have concerns about open emitters. Every one of these had the pistol completely under water several tiles per match. Mostly muddy, nasty shit. This also has me sticking with a G17 instead of running my Prodigy, which I shout better. I just don’t know that it’ll handle the silt in the trigger, etc.

View attachment 8354546

Lol, outside of Ranger school I have never had to swim or wade through deep water while in kit. I guess I should recalibrate the conditions of combat towards those of tough mudders, ha ha.

Yeah, you're going to want a closed emitter for that stuff

 

[FatBoy]

Lol, outside of Ranger school I have never had to swim or wade through deep water while in kit. I guess I should recalibrate the conditions of combat towards those of tough mudders, ha ha.

Yeah, you're going to want a closed emitter for that stuff

Some of the 5SFG group guys help design and run these Legion matches. The guy who designed this obstacle is one devious motherfucker. This goes under a road and was 7 miles into the run.

 

[JR1200W3]

Some of the 5SFG group guys help design and run these Legion matches. The guy who designed this obstacle is one devious motherfucker. This goes under a road and was 7 miles into the run.

View attachment 8354564

Lol, it's amazing what civilians will pay to do, ha ha. My cup is full. I'm looking forward to sleeping in and trail runs in the national forest with my dog.

 

[FatBoy]

Lol, it's amazing what civilians will pay to do, ha ha. My cup is full. I'm looking forward to sleeping in and trail runs in the national forest with my dog.

I hear you. I was 11B and out pre-GWOT, never deployed to a two way range. One of my good buddies retired out of 5Th group and said the same thing, “fucking stupid to pay for that kind of shit, just go back in.”but his ass ran it with me as a team in 2022, at 60 years old. His suffering was epic

100% of the money for this match goes to chapter 38 5SFG charity. Small way to give back, and get my dick kicked in once in a while.

Moving to night matches as well, which is really why I am looking at the red dot. We will be wet at night too, and I need this dot to work with a 14 when I get it. I prefer the simplicity of irons but I struggled with the Glock sights on these targets at night.

 

[CSTactical]

acro p2 is what you seek

And you can save a few bucks here:

Aimpoint ACRO P-2

The Aimpoint® Acro P-1 is developed for use on pistols and other weapon platforms requiring a small enclosed red dot system.

cstactical.com

My hefty daily carry

 

[308pirate]

ACRO p2 ( concerned about FOV)

Field of view? That's irrelevant with reflex optics. You don't use them like you use a magnified optic. You look past them, not through them.

That is the very first thing you need to learn. The next one, right after that, is that you do not focus on the dot as if it was a front sight. You focus on the target and the dot is just superimposed. It works even if you completely obscure/block the front side of the optic so that you cannot see through it.

A closed emitter reflex sight is a little easier to manage in nasty conditions compared to one where the emitter lens "exposed" to the elements.

Your only real options outside of chinesium are the Aimpoint ACRO, Steiner MPS, or the Trijicon RCR. The ACRO and MPS share a common footprint/mounting dovetail. The RCR has the same footprint as the RMR and SRO.

If you dont mind supporting communist china, Holosun has a few enclosed emitter sights, with the 509T being the largest one.

 

[308pirate]

Durability from impact damage doesn’t really concern me. It’s water.

 

[FatBoy]

And you can save a few bucks here:

Aimpoint ACRO P-2

The Aimpoint® Acro P-1 is developed for use on pistols and other weapon platforms requiring a small enclosed red dot system.

cstactical.com

My hefty daily carry
View attachment 8354574

You have a PM

 

[FatBoy]

Hmm. This water concern seems a bit overblown.

 

[FatBoy]

Have you thought about using an IR laser instead of a red dot?

I have., but I really don’t want to buy a $1000 light/laser and another $250 holster. If we do use a laser in these matches it would have to be IR, kind of limits my options, but I could be off base.

 

[Milf Dots]

Aimpoint ACRO P-2
Trijicon RCR

 

[JoeZ]

What do you folks think about running a jellyfish on an open emitter?

 

[CSTactical]

We have some Aimpoint ACRO P2 Open box here for *$560.00 shipped! https://cstactical.com/aimpoint-acro-p-2/


* CA residents have sales tax

 

[bohica17]

What do you folks think about running a jellyfish on an open emitter?

Completely useless in my experience. Pulled my rmr off carry gun and put it on my franchi affinity 3 for turkey season. Was worried about water messing up the dot. Thanks to @308pirate shared videos I feel better now. Opening day in Ohio last year for turkey season it was wet and rainy as hell. I could barely see through the jellyfish with it dry. Once it got wet forget about it. I ended up pulling it off and idk even know where it is now. Have had rain/dew from moving through the turkey woods on the rmr but not that big of a deal. This is what I bought, imho save your money. Or pm me and I’ll find mine and you can have it for free.

 

[308pirate]

What do you folks think about running a jellyfish on an open emitter?

I think you should. If you don't want to be able to see shit.

Did you bother looking at the videos I posted?

 

[JoeZ]

I think you should. If you don't want to be able to see shit.

Did you bother looking at the videos I posted?

So, I did in fact. I live in WI. My drop tests are occasionally in snow. Ice has rendered my RMR useless, as in unable to complete the event. Just this year, it snowed (actual blizzard) so hard the 200y stage was reduced to 50y because of visibility. My holstered pistol caught so much snow I couldn't use it and I'd rather a $15 solution than a $500. It's cheap to ask the question, but I suppose you run the risk of Bear pit dwellers talking shit.

 

[JoeZ]

Completely useless in my experience. Pulled my rmr off carry gun and put it on my franchi affinity 3 for turkey season. Was worried about water messing up the dot. Thanks to @308pirate shared videos I feel better now. Opening day in Ohio last year for turkey season it was wet and rainy as hell. I could barely see through the jellyfish with it dry. Once it got wet forget about it. I ended up pulling it off and idk even know where it is now. Have had rain/dew from moving through the turkey woods on the rmr but not that big of a deal. This is what I bought, imho save your money. Or pm me and I’ll find mine and you can have it for free.

Alright, so it's value is a cover and not any sort of "sacrificial lens". Sounds like something else is in order, thx.

 

[JoeZ]

We have some Aimpoint ACRO P2 Open box here for *$560.00 shipped! https://cstactical.com/aimpoint-acro-p-2/


* CA residents have sales tax

View attachment 8355421

So I just bought my wife a Walther PDP, is there a plate to get the ACRO to work on it? Also, she struggles with finding the dot so I was thinking the large (50-60moa) circle around a 3moa dot would help find center quicker. Is that a reticle available in the ACRO?

Thx,
JoeZ

 

[Milf Dots]

So I just bought my wife a Walther PDP, is there a plate to get the ACRO to work on it? Also, she struggles with finding the dot so I was thinking the large (50-60moa) circle around a 3moa dot would help find center quicker. Is that a reticle available in the ACRO?

Thx,
JoeZ

Aimpoint doesn't offer gimmicky reticle options because they're a Mil optics maker, and the optic's chassis & lens "frame" the dot.

The main reason people have trouble is poor pistol presentation to target. It's just a training issue and the fastest way to learn to get the dot to superimpose over the intended POI is to use masking tape to cover the steel sights so they're not visible, then with an empty pistol- practice pressing the pistol out toward the target, then back toward the eye, all the while focusing on the target[...]

[...] Pretend the pistol is on a rail and have her focus on the target while pressing it out and then back in. After she gets good at that, have her draw from holster, raise the leveled pistol to eye, then do the rail thing out and back, then back into holster.

For the PDP mounting plate: https://benstoegerproshop.com/walth...for-aimpoint-acro-by-forward-controls-design/

A good, short video that should help any shooter trying to learn the use of dot optics:

 

[308pirate]

So I just bought my wife a Walther PDP, is there a plate to get the ACRO to work on it?

Yes. A simple internet search will turn them up. In fact, if you look at the paperwork that came with the pistol it will tell you how to get one FOR FREE

Also, she struggles with finding the dot so I was thinking the large (50-60moa) circle around a 3moa dot would help find center quicker.

That's because her grip (and index if drawing from a holster) are terrible. No gimmicks will fix that. She needs instructions from someome who knows what good grip and index are.

 

[JoeZ]

Thx all.

 

[RMSBrandon]

I run the 509 on multiple guns under NV. Both green and whit phos. I have been more than happy with the performance.

 

[FatBoy]

This is a long story of what ignorance can cost you. A decent read for a first time red dot buyer.

What a fucking journey this has been. Long story short, I don’t know what I don’t know and should have spent a little more time searching basic shit as well as just looking at my kit before I order shit.

A journey of stupidity and lack of research…

I was going to put a Aimpoint dovetail plate on my existing Gen3 G17. I check and did two places it’s in stock, great. Next day I order the ACRO (Thanks, Richard) and I go to buy the plate. Sold out, everywhere in the US. WTF….

OK, Prodigy is cut so I order up a Springfield plate. While the plate is on the way I go down the rabbit hole of looking at ACRO cut slides. 10 minutes in, Brownells has gen3 ACRO cut slides for $99. Damn, less than a plate. Purchased. Then went looking for how to move parts over. Ignorant assumption #1. That firing pin sleeve….

After realizing I’m not going to be able to move it all over I go looking for parts kits. Damn, there is a ton of choices. I fell on AIM Surplus and as a bonus they had the suppressor height sights I wanted sonI order that shit up.

Everything is at the house and I put the parts Kit together. The pistol doesn’t want to go into battery with the first round out of the mag. Fucked with it a bit and I think the extractor is dragging and I fiddle with it and I can dry cycle it and it works 90+ % of the time but I am thinking it will break in. I go to install the sights, front is fine, rear if WAY oversized. Dipshit move #2(?). I tried for an hour to fit this sight and finally said fuck it and just scrapped the Brownells upper idea. I’m just going to run the Prodigy in the run and gun the 23rd. Lesson, buy factory shit if your ignorant.

Off to the range I go with the Springfield and it takes a lot of ammo to zero this. I get windage when I dial elevation and vice versa. No, I’m not canting, but got it zerod. Ran 300 rounds through it with 1 round stuck on the ramp that took a tap. That’s clean on a flat range. Fuck, Fuck Fuck… this thing isn’t going to run wet and dirty is running through my head so home I go to mentally fuck myself over this match. ( which, by the way I have zero chance of winning, this should just be fun). I start checking the Brownells slide again and quickly realize my existing Glock Safarilands are NOT cut for an ACRO and I have zero interest in buying another $270 holster…

Next day we go to COSTCO for steaks ( highly recommend Murfreesboro TN Costco butcher) and there is a gun store next door. Want in looking for maybe a g45. They have a 47 MOS so I say fuck it and buy another pistol cut for optics.

Get home. Pistol only came with one plate. WTF? Ok, I Mount the MOS plate, move one of my RMRs and it won’t tighten to the plate. What kind of monkey shit is this? Ignorant awakening #3(?) the screw in the MOS kit don’t work and neither do the RMR factory screws.

On to YouTube I go and verify. Shit…. So I order a C+H plate. Plate shows up next day, I mount it all up and the sights are way too low. I have a personal issue not having back up irons so here we go again with the AIM Surplus sights.


This time I did it right. Removed the RMR, Measured a factory sight and started taking off some of the sights dovetail with a flat file. After 20 minutes, I can tap it in and it’s tight.(hopefully). So I pull it back out, cold blue and oil it, reinstall. Put the RMR back on and now I have what I think is a pistol ready to zero.

Off to an indoor range as I don’t have time to go to SE. RMR zerod in 6 or 7 rounds. Trued it up at 10/15 yards across the course of 200 rounds and ensure the sights are zerod. Finally, a working gun.

Initial impressions, the ACRo is a more forgiving sight. For me, it’s easier to pick up the dot and the dot is sharper. Also, the glass is much cleared to my eye and shooting irons through the ACRO is easier.

RMR works but the lens distorts my front sight some. Also way not quite as sharp but may be because I was indoor. It worked wonderfully though, as expected.

So I’m taking both to a 2 gun match Sunday. I am 99.8999% sure I’m going to run the G47 in the night match the 23rd, just because I have convinced myself the Prodify won’t run if dirty, even though I have only had two failures in the last 900 rounds, stuck in the ramp. However, I’ve never submerged or gotten it muddy so I cannot bring myself to use this on something I’ve been training six weeks for.

That is my red dot journey… long winded I know, but after all the help I figured I would share this shit show.

Thanks for the assists both here in this thread and in the PMs.

Chris