Which short action magnum?

[oldnewguy]

The added brass availability is definitely nice. But it’s still not Lapua.

The draw to the 7-6.5prc is pretty easy to find when you look at why it was made to begin with. Fclass shooters have been looking for the best case to push a 180gr 7mm bullet at 2850-2950fps with the least amount of powder.

I thought about adding that caveat to my original post. Outside of specific reasons for F-Class, I don't see the point. I can't see it catching on for hunting or practical shooting..

And just an interesting note, but Alex Wheeler has said he designed the cartridge with ADG brass in mind.

 

[Geno C.]

it was designed around adg because Lapua hadn’t made prc brass at the time.

I built a hunting rifle in 7-6.5prc on a model 70 with bdl bottom metal. Can easily do 3” oal

 

[J_D]

7 Sherman short mag ? Target/hunting bullets are vast. Doesn’t beat you up. Mile capable.

I have a 6.5 Sherman, and like it enough to order a 7mm version.

 

[beetroot]

A wsm will hold more powder than the saum with the bullet seated to the same length.

Is it enough of an improvement to choose the WSM over the SAUM or PRC when you factory in brass availability and quality?

How does the 300WSM stack up? I'm guessing at a 3" COAL you'll be getting heavier bullets for more energy but worse ballistics that a 180gr ELD/Hybrid?

 

[jbuck88]

As a data point. Factory 200gr federal ammo is 2800fps. Handload berger 210gr are the same 2800fps. 178gr ELDX are 3043fps.

 

[beetroot]

As a data point. Factory 200gr federal ammo is 2800fps. Handload berger 210gr are the same 2800fps. 178gr ELDX are 3043fps.

Is this 300wsm in a short action?
If so what brass are you using?

 

[jbuck88]

Yes. Mag length for hunting. I think nosler brass for those reloads. I grabbed a few boxes of ADG to use as well. So I'd have to check my note book to be positive.

 

[Geno C.]

Is it enough of an improvement to choose the WSM over the SAUM or PRC when you factory in brass availability and quality?

How does the 300WSM stack up? I'm guessing at a 3" COAL you'll be getting heavier bullets for more energy but worse ballistics that a 180gr ELD/Hybrid?

Enough to go wsm over saum is all personal. We’re really just splitting hairs at this point when comparing the 2 in the same caliber.

Really there are 2 main reasons to pick a 30 over a 7 in these short mags. Heavier bullet for more energy on target, and longer barrel life.

 

[907Lapua]

I, my wife, and kids have been shooting/hunting with the 7-WSM for several years now. Killed a pile of Alaska game with this cartridge! (all on a R-700 short action clone receivers-custom short throat reamer) I feel this is the perfect combination off bullet weight, impact velocity and shoot ability in a lighter weight hunting rifle. I currently have enough 7 WSM to get me through the 3 current 7 WSM barrels on our rifles now but due to the nonexistent 7 WSM brass let alone any kind of premium brass available has me looking into options for the future… Here is a rough comparison chart for different variants of 7 short mag (missing 7 Sherman Short Magnum and 7 FCP) but will give you the idea. All percentage loss measurements where based off the 7-WSM due to it being the largest.

The 7 WSM and the 300/7 WSM where ran through a small base Full length die so probably reduced case compacity slightly, the 6.5/7 PRC and 7 SAUM were neck sized only.



True case capacity to me is with the desired bullet seated at desired length!

 

[beetroot]

I, my wife, and kids have been shooting/hunting with the 7-WSM for several years now. Killed a pile of Alaska game with this cartridge! (all on a R-700 short action clone receivers-custom short throat reamer) I feel this is the perfect combination off bullet weight, impact velocity and shoot ability in a lighter weight hunting rifle. I currently have enough 7 WSM to get me through the 3 current 7 WSM barrels on our rifles now but due to the nonexistent 7 WSM brass let alone any kind of premium brass available has me looking into options for the future… Here is a rough comparison chart for different variants of 7 short mag (missing 7 Sherman Short Magnum and 7 FCP) but will give you the idea. All percentage loss measurements where based off the 7-WSM due to it being the largest.

The 7 WSM and the 300/7 WSM where ran through a small base Full length die so probably reduced case compacity slightly, the 6.5/7 PRC and 7 SAUM were neck sized only.



True case capacity to me is with the desired bullet seated at desired length!View attachment 8413051

I'm saving this!

Ivbeen planning to to a 7 something for a while now and never could find out realistic comparisons as discussion usually just turn into "short action is dumb" and not provide SA info.

 

[bodhisafa]

Help interpreting chart, what’s the take away

 

[jbuck88]

The case capacity with a bullet seated. So not just empty case capacity.

 

[Hondo1]

Just wait for the CDG and get a 7mm PRC barrel, it’s the new 7mm easy button. I sweated over 7mm’s for quite some time and finally had landed on the 7ss right about the Rich changed the reamer dimensions. After that I said piss on it and went PRC and have never looked back.
If you truely are stuck on a mag feeding in a short action with high bc bullets the Sherman shorts are the best answer. Just make sure your smith is using the B reamer and you get the dies to match.

 

[bodhisafa]

Just wait for the CDG and get a 7mm PRC barrel, it’s the new 7mm easy button. I sweated over 7mm’s for quite some time and finally had landed on the 7ss right about the Rich changed the reamer dimensions. After that I said piss on it and went PRC and have never looked back.
If you truely are stuck on a mag feeding in a short action with high bc bullets the Sherman shorts are the best answer. Just make sure your smith is using the B reamer and you get the dies to match.

Did the b reamer fix the issues ?

 

[Hondo1]

Did the b reamer fix the issues ?

As far as I know yes it did. It was basically an adjustment to the current dimensions of ADG brass.

 

[Geno C.]

Sherman sold to DI precision. If you have or have had any problems with a Sherman get a hold of them.

 

[Clownbuster]

OP, don't waste your time with the Sherman Short Mags, complete cluster fuck scenario of the chamber designer vs the brass manufacturer and the customer paying for it all.

My crew fell into the hype trap of the Sherman Short Mags of pushing heavy-for caliber bullets at belted-mag speeds and had five rifles built. Not one of those oversized chambered rifles would produce marketed speeds without expanding the undersized ADG brass case heads and primer pockets, forcing you to reduce your loads, contradictory to your purpose for the Sherman chamberings. My 7mm-08 AI's and 7 SAW's will do the exact same thing with the same bullets as these Shermans we built, but with Lapua Palma brass that will last countless firings.

 

[Clownbuster]

If the B chamber fixes all their stupid shit and will do EXACTLY as advertised and survive, great, go for it, but we won't chamber another one while the WSMs are available.

 

[jbuck88]

The Sherman's are a interesting topic that I can't quite wrap my head around. The way to make a bullet go faster down the barrel is to increase or sustain the pressure pushing it longer. You can do that with shorter fatter cases to optimize powder burn with faster powders or slower powders and longer cases and barrels.

So with case design and capacity being close the only way I can see the Sherman making improvements is by adding more pressure. Or more realisticly hiding pressure signs better.

Add to it that people were having issues and it's enough to steer me away. Not saying it's not a good design, just I don't understand what it offers.

 

[NiteQwill]

OP, don't waste your time with the Sherman Short Mags, complete cluster fuck scenario of the chamber designer vs the brass manufacturer and the customer paying for it all.

My crew fell into the hype trap of the Sherman Short Mags of pushing heavy-for caliber bullets at belted-mag speeds and had five rifles built. Not one of those oversized chambered rifles would produce marketed speeds without expanding the undersized ADG brass case heads and primer pockets, forcing you to reduce your loads, contradictory to your purpose for the Sherman chamberings. My 7mm-08 AI's and 7 SAW's will do the exact same thing with the same bullets as these Shermans we built, but with Lapua Palma brass that will last countless firings.

This must have been Pre-B reamer. The newest iteration of chambering and brass works as advertised. A good buddy is pushing his 7SS with 184 Hybrids 3000+ with RL26.

 

[Clownbuster]

This must have been Pre-B reamer. The newest iteration of chambering and brass works as advertised. A good buddy is pushing his 7SS with 184 Hybrids 3000+ with RL26.

That's correct sir.
That's great, they're able to get there with one powder choice that's the most overpriced and impossible to find.

 

[Clownbuster]

That's correct sir.
That's great, they're able to get there with one powder that's the most overpriced and impossible to find.

Prioritizing velocity over accuracy is a mistake

 

[NiteQwill]

That's correct sir.
That's great, they're able to get there with one powder that's the most overpriced and impossible to find.

VV is available and not hard to find. While, you're not gonna find those speeds with VV powder, it's an alternative.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

A 7wsm with 190 atips crammed deep to fit a short action stomps on the 6.5prc with 147s. You don’t have to have all the bullet hanging out of the front of the case to make it work.

Absolutely. Just like everyone being scared of bullet jump. Some of the most accurate ammo/rifle combos I have jump bullets over .100"

Ern

 

[Clownbuster]

VV is available and not hard to find. While, you're not gonna find those speeds with VV powder, it's an alternative.

Correct again, just wish using they didn't come at the expense of reduced barrel life. But 100% agree, VV is a great option looking for both speed and accuracy

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

My vote is 300wsm all the way. I use sorted winchester brass.

Ern

 

[Geno C.]

Guys have found a perfect combo in the 7fcp with n555. I wouldn’t hesitate to try any V powders.

That being said, with the 7wsm around, I don’t see the draw to the Sherman 7

 

[Geno C.]

Correct again, just wish using they didn't come at the expense of reduced barrel life. But 100% agree, VV is a great option looking for both speed and accuracy

More speed = less barrel life. Not and way to make any serious change to that formula

 

[Clownbuster]

More speed = less barrel life. Not and way to make any serious change to that formula

I love that you said the word serious, 100%, cuz every unicorn chambering seems to try and argue with that math.

 

[Clownbuster]

But there IS free speed without less barrel life.

Do tell my good man

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Haha.......anyone remember the 243/dtac days with h1000 and 29" barrels?

I tried something similar with 260ai, imr7828ssc, and long barrels. Great results but recoil was so much worse than the little weenie 6mm nowadays.

 

[J_D]

VV is available and not hard to find. While, you're not gonna find those speeds with VV powder, it's an alternative.

I use VV 560. Works great.

 

[NiteQwill]

I use VV 560. Works great.

Yup. I'm running N565 or RL26 and I've had great success running 184s at 2700-2800. Which is all the speed I need for my application.

 

[J_D]

Yup. I'm running N565 or RL26 and I've had great success running 184s at 2700-2800. Which is all the speed I need for my application.

I also run at the bottom end to preserve barrel life. I don’t know why people have issues with the caliber in the /B spec.

 

[st1650]

7 SAUM with ADG brass is the easy button for short action.

 

[Shoots 700's]

I went 7SAUM and use ADG brass, couldn't be happier. Mild recoil, excellent ballistics with 180-190 Bergers

 

[Hawk in WY]

7 SAUM with ADG brass is the easy button for short action.

^^This^^

i also looked into longer throats and found optimized loads needed more powder to offset the greater case capacity so I’m back to standard COAL.

I’m running Hammer bullets.

 

[Im2bent]

ADG 300 Winchester Short Magnum Brass

ADG 300 Winchest Short Magnum Brass 50 Ct Box Caliber: .30 Finish: Standard Case Weight: 233.9 grains (average) Case Volume: 79.8 grains of H20 (average) Neck Wall Thickness:: .0157 inch (average) About ADG: Headquartered in Elizabethtown, KY and owned and operated by eight...

www.creedmoorsports.com

 

[wind gypsy]

For short action, mag feeding, I say 25 or 6.5 PRC or 25/6.5/7 SAUM. I think the sherman SS case design is actually ideal but wouldn't plan on pushing them any faster, if even as fast, as a SAUM if I did go that direction.

I have a 300 WSM hunting rifle. Used it more than any other hunting rifle for a number of years but the more I shoot the less i want to deal with 8# 30 cal magnums. That amount of snort just isn't necessary. That and the fact that you're not going to outperform the high BC 7s with a sub 3" COAL 300 WSM when it comes to drop and drift anyway. I'd have no qualms about using a 257, 264, or 284 bullet for elk.

 

[wind gypsy]

Correct again, just wish using they didn't come at the expense of reduced barrel life. But 100% agree, VV is a great option looking for both speed and accuracy

Are you referring to VV and barrel life? If so is it just based on the temp ratings? N555 for example doesn't appear to burn that hot

 

[beetroot]

7 SAUM with ADG brass is the easy button for short action.

Quality brass that doesn't require any work is definitely worth a lot IMO.
Brass prep sucks.

 

[NiteQwill]

Are you referring to VV and barrel life? If so is it just based on the temp ratings? N555 for example doesn't appear to burn that hot

In comparison to RL and Hodgdon powders, VV is certainly more cooler burning. Makes it ideal for a substitute for 'more popular' US products that you find more common on the shelf.

 

[J_D]

Quality brass that doesn't require any work is definitely worth a lot IMO.
Brass prep sucks.

ADG makes the brass for Sherman.

 

[dk17hmr]

I have a 6.5SS also and have killed lots of stuff with it shooting 122gr solids at 3400fps. I'd still build a 300wsm first for hunting.

 

[wind gypsy]

In comparison to RL and Hodgdon powders, VV is certainly more cooler burning. Makes it ideal for a substitute for 'more popular' US products that you find more common on the shelf.

That’s over generalizing though. N530, 540, 550, 560, and 570 are some of the hottest burning powders out there.

 

[st1650]

That’s over generalizing though. N530, 540, 550, 560, and 570 are some of the hottest burning powders out there.

I only use N540 in my hunting rifles with very low rounds, burns really hot.

 

[wind gypsy]

I only use N540 in my hunting rifles with very low rounds, burns really hot.

I've heard of that one being really hard on throats yet by the temp ratings varget and h4895 are just a step down and they certainly get a lot of use in high volume guns.

 

[Im2bent]

I was under the impression the powder rate charts had to do with speed off propagation or the " burn rate" not how hot temperature wise it gets. Seems to be a known thing the V5 powders are double base and are hotter temp wise and can decrease barrel life whereas the V1 series are not. Or am I miss informed?

 

[Clownbuster]

I was under the impression the powder rate charts had to do with speed off propagation or the " burn rate" not how hot temperature wise it gets. Seems to be a known thing the V5 powders are double base and are hotter temp wise and can decrease barrel life whereas the V1 series are not. Or am I miss informed?

Correct, the chart that everyone miseads runs <Faster-Slower> It has nothing to do with burn "temperature". Like all the VV and other double-base high pressure powders, they will burn throats at an accelerated rate.

 

[st1650]

Correct, the chart that everyone miseads runs <Faster-Slower> It has nothing to do with burn "temperature". Like all the VV and other double-base high pressure powders, they will burn throats at an accelerated rate.

Another thing is that the chart can be quite misguiding
For example it shows that N540 is a bit slower than XBR but in Quickload and GRT it's very close (at least in Dasher/Grendel sized case).
Powder burn rates aren't linear and theres a lot of variables ( single, double base, flake, ball, granule size, density, temperature, effect when compressed, etc etc)
I'd never select a powder/charge just by looking at the chart.