Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

[banditbump]

I just ordered my first big boy ffp scope an swfa ss 3-15. I got 4 rifles that would work for learning to shoot long range, none are perfect. I want to go from 100y to 1k. Which one should I use?

1. 308 20 inch heavy barreled sako custom.
Pros I know it shoots sub moa.
Cons recoil ,ammo cost, short barrel for 1k yards.

2. 6.5 grendel auto 16 inch barrel, I just built it not sure if it will be sub moa so far it looks like it will
Pros cheap good factory ammo when u can find it, low recoil, cheap to reload if I get off my butt and do it.
Cons short barrel, ammo ain't always easy to get, not many factory loads to use

3. 223 jp enterprises wilde chamber match barrel 1 in 9 twist. 16 inch tube.
Pros: ammo availability. Cheapest ammo. No recoil. Shoots sub moa
Cons: I have trouble seeing the small 22 caliber target holes past 100y, is it enough twist for the 75 grain amax?, probably won't get to 1k

4. 270 W's 24 inch remington ss
Pros it's my only rifle barrel the others are all carbines. Has 5 he powder capacity for long range. Shoots sub moa.
Cons: poor caliber for factory match ammo of good high bc bullets, ammo cost, recoil.

5 / 6. Rebarrel 308 in 6.5 creedmore/ 260 / 6.5x284 with a nice long tube. Or do the same with the 270 into 7mm or 300. I would prefer to not have to reload, at least while I am starting out. Thanks for looking and / or opinionating, best daniel

 

[RonHam]

Use the 308 to learn and get good at 600, by the time you get there the 308 and 175's will be fine at 1000.

 

[banditbump]

That's a good idea. That rifle luvs the 180 grain accubond from blackhills, it's what I hunt with. I would think it would have a similar trajectory to the 175 federal match ammo....

 

[Bradu]

#1 is what I would run if I were taking a class

 

[30calDeath]

BTW a 20" barreled 308 will do 1000yards all day long, heck a shorter barreled gun can do that too. Again it comes down to shooter and training.

 

[KYpatriot]

Sticks? Pills? What are these things of which you speak?

 

[ArmyJerry]

hehe KP. was thinking same. OP get a Savage 10 FP or a 700 with a 24inch Varmint contour barrel, 308 will be more expensive for learning to actually shoot than a 223, but either will be good enough plus you can rebarrel and upgrade as you go along. You will learn how to call wind a lot cheaper, and quicker with a 223 bolt gun than the 308.

 

[LawnMM]

Play with the 308 Sako while you have the Remington 270 rebarreled to 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[Jon Lester]

I would say that IF you plan on getting another rifle later and just "learn" on this one; get what you envision as your final project and learn on it now. If you become the greatest 308 wind caller and shooter in the world with your transition gun,you will still have to learn to re apply it to your new whizbang1000. Get your final gun first and become proficient with it, really know it only once. If you shoot out the barrel on this WB1000, get a new barrel, you were going to rebarrel the 308 to a speed demon anyway so the cost is nil. Trust me you would rechamber, if that is where your mind was, loooong before shooting out a 308!
Everybody says " buy once Cry once" then tells a guy to start on a 308? Start on your Final Chambering and learn it well along the way!

But thats just my perspective and like a famous SH curmudgeon of yesteryear "I am just a simple hobbyist"

 

[threetrees]

use the 270, reload, and use 140gr accubond/ballistic tip - decent bullet, you can use it to get started, cheap, and serves as a hunting rifle at the very same time

 

[majohnson2]

You must be one bad ass OP!

 

[VJJPunisher]

stick, pills, nice long tube, somebody tryin hard to sound cool and it sounds retarded. stick with the 308

 

[Armored Transport]

Get a 22lr upper for one of the AR lowers and hang out in the wind at 100 to 200yds and get a feel for the breeze. Upgrade the AR trigger to an SSA-E and just have some good "cheap" fun in the wind. Mostly at any longer range it is all just fun in the wind...Shoot for groups....aim small...

 

[Graham]

Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

Get a 22lr upper for one of the AR lowers and hang out in the wind at 100 to 200yds and get a feel for the breeze. Upgrade the AR trigger to an SSA-E and just have some good "cheap" fun in the wind. Mostly at any longer range it is all just fun in the wind...Shoot for groups....aim small...

1) You will never learn long range shooting with a .22 Rimfire... Fundamentals of marksmanship, perhaps, but shooting in the wind: Never.
2) If you want to learn long range marksmanship, don't shoot groups. It's a waste of time and ammunition.
3) You don't want to 'aim small' because you don't train to miss: When you aim small, you miss big, and you don't want to do that. 'Aim small, miss small' is a cliche, from a Hollywood movie, not a rule of any kind.

 

[BoilerUP]

1) You will never learn long range shooting with a .22 Rimfire... Fundamentals of marksmanship, perhaps, but shooting in the wind: Never.

Shooting a 22LR at 200/300yd won't help teach shooting in the wind?

 

[Graham]

Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

Shooting a 22LR at 200/300yd won't help teach shooting in the wind?

The .22 LR is subsonic at those distances.

 

[steve123]

I would say that IF you plan on getting another rifle later and just "learn" on this one; get what you envision as your final project and learn on it now. If you become the greatest 308 wind caller and shooter in the world with your transition gun,you will still have to learn to re apply it to your new whizbang1000. Get your final gun first and become proficient with it, really know it only once. If you shoot out the barrel on this WB1000, get a new barrel, you were going to rebarrel the 308 to a speed demon anyway so the cost is nil. Trust me you would rechamber, if that is where your mind was, loooong before shooting out a 308!
Everybody says " buy once Cry once" then tells a guy to start on a 308? Start on your Final Chambering and learn it well along the way!

But thats just my perspective and like a famous SH curmudgeon of yesteryear "I am just a simple hobbyist"

^^^^^

OP, reloading isn't much harder than following a recipe book and making a meal. You'll make a few mistakes and learn from them but in the long run you'll save money and master the techniques.

Years ago I looked around the house and found lots of stuff collecting dust that I sold and used to fund a very nice custom rifle. Without a doubt one of the best decisions I've ever made when it comes to guns. Still got it and on my 4th and 5th barrel now.

I'd take your M700 270 and start fixing it up. Have a quality barrel with a muzzle brake put on it in 280AI and is pretty hard to beat at 1000Y. In the mean time have fun with your other rifles at distance so you can see how far superior a 280AI would be in comparison. Really just about any 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm will do pretty good.

I was shooting my 223 at 589Y yesterday in 16-18 mph full value winds and was having to aim approx 5 feet left, LOL. With my previously mentioned rifle I'd only needed to aim 2 feet or so. The steel was a foot wide so you can imagine how much easier it would have been to connect with my other rifle.

BTW, get some AR500 steel, a lot more fun and easy to see where you've hit.

 

[Armored Transport]

O.K....I get it. Learn something new here at the Hide every day....I shoot for groups at every target I happen to hit. I can see at over a certain distance just getting a hit can be a days work for sure. I can hang out back with my pellet gun cooking along a 975fps and have fun making wind calls at soup cans waiting for the occasional bushy tail to cruise through. Out there at Thunder Valley in Ohio there is a bunch of 22lr fun going on with from what I understand some nice custom rifles sporting high end glass. I don't doubt for a moment I do a lot wrong but I DO remain teachable. Group shooting at any distance I generally shoot is a challenge and very enjoyable and speaks volumes to my equipment and loads. I figure kind of like F-Class...But for me 1000 to 1500yds is a REAL LONG WAY. I know there are many shooters around here that find those distances just getting warmed up....My hat is respectfully off to you and I hope to one day find myself there as well. I remain teachable and I surely don't mind the schooling from other members......Thank's A.T.

 

[scotharr]

Here's a little different take for you. The best stick to learn long range on is the one that allows you to put the most rounds downrange. I wouldn't get so hung up on "long-range" and instead focus on putting some volume downrange...with feedback. The wind is always the biggest factor in LR shooting and you can learn about the wind just as well at mid-range (300-600 yards). One of the best ways to learn is participate in some highpower matches like F-class. You get to shoot 75 rounds or so in a day with each shot marked clearly. Put a spotting scope next to your rifle, watch the mirage, flags, other people's targets while shooting and I guarantee you will learn a ton.

Focus on a cartridge that is economical and allows you to shoot as much as possible. A 223REM bolt action with a 26" barrel can be extremely effective out to 800 yards. A 6BR is incredibly accurate all the way to 1K yards. Both of these cartridges are economical, easy on barrels, and have good factory ammo available.

Also, if you are serious about shooting, you will reload.....hard for anyone to afford to buy ammuntiion and shoot a lot. Plus, virtually everyone that shoots long-range regularly reloads. This is done for economic and accuracy reasons.

 

[JByrd]

jon is right on the money. do it right the first time.

my 2cents is sell ALL your regular guns and buy one great gun from a builder like stuteville prec or crescent customs or GAP but equally importantly get it chambered in 6.5 creed so you can begin on factory ammo then progress to handloads . get out there and shoot the crap out of that gun.get your belly shooting fundamentals down good and go from there.

 

[rob232369]

Go check out on youtube a poster called "highjak86". Him and some of his buds have taken a R700 AAC-SD .308 and pushed it to 1000 yards (seemed pretty easy after they setup the rifle to be able to perform at such distances) and if you watch his video they got a 5 inch group of multiple shots on I believe it was a 18" plate they said. Not sure but def worth looking at if your trying to gather more information. I own a R700 AAC-SD in .308 and I'm working on a smiliar build. Good luck man. I'm still learning man I don't assume to know much.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

I like JByrd's advice with one exception. When I decided to stop dicking around at the 200 yard range I said f' it and bought a GAP .308 and put a NF 5.5-22x on top. I wanted a weapon system that was top notch so if there were any issues with impact downrange I knew it was my fault and I could fix it. No second guessing the equipment or thinking I'd do better if I had a setup like the guys on The Hide. It's humbling knowing you're just an average shooter when you're shooting with the best equipment. But I shot in 600 yard matches for the next two years and finally managed to fine tune my skills enough to start scoring in the Expert class for mid-range. Only instruction was from The Hide, YouTube, and actually getting out and doing it. Plan to move out to the 1000 yard range eventually (tried a couple times), but I'm going to get a better tool for the job at that range.

I didn't know the difference of what caliber choices did for ballistics when I bought my GAP. Didn't start reloading until after I bought it. Looking back knowing what I know now, I probably still would have gotten .308. It's a caliber that wind has enough of an effect to really matter without screwing your scores up too much to the point where you get discouraged. You let one fly into the 8 ring and you're pissed but it's fixable. And you focus more on what the wind is doing. I was sitting next to a guy one match who had a factory Remington 6.5 Creedmore with a Vortex PST on top. It was a particularly windy day and I noticed he wasn't having as much of a problem with the wind as I was. So I asked, "Where are you holding for this wind?" He said, "I'm not. I just keep holding center." Not only did I end up outscoring him because I started getting the wind right, I guarantee I learned more about long range shooting than he did that day. So when I do make the switch to a better long range caliber, I'll be all the better for it.

 

[steve123]

I don't know quite where to start??? Nor do I want to take away from your accomplishments or put you down but...

Obviously the guy with the 6.5 creed has no experience in long range shooting if he's not compensating for wind, right? Well as soon as he gets a little experience behind his belt you are going to be at a distinct disadvantage with your 308. In the long run he's going to develop the intuition to know where to aim with his cartridge that has nearly half the wind drift as yours and can stay with that cartridge the rest of his life without giving up much to cartridges that blow in the wind slightly less, cartridges like 280AI with 180's and 300WM with 230's, etc. Of course they bring other problems to the table though, more expensive to shoot and more recoil.

You say you'll be better off because you started with a 308 but the truth is you'd been better off starting off with the cartridge you had a advantage to begin with. When you finally do get into a ballistically superior cartridge you'll be aiming into the wind too much until you develop that same intuition that the guy with the 6.5 Creed had already developed.

And this is precisely why Jon gave the advise he gave.

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

Steve, your logic is spot on and now maybe I agree with JByrd without the exception. I was looking at it from the perspective that the .308 caliber forced me to really focus on the wind. Wasn't trying to put down the 6.5 guy (or guys who shoot 6.5), only using his acceptance of aiming center and getting 9s as an example of how had he been using a .308 and those 9s were 8s, maybe he would have focused more on getting better instead of his bullet choice doing the job for him and being okay with it. I'm sure most guys on this site aren't happy with 9s, just like I'm not, so I had to get better because my 8s would stay 8s otherwise. But my logic of getting a GAP because it was the tits should have flowed down to caliber choice as well. Maybe if I was running 6.5 Creed or the like, I might have a shot at beating the old guy who shoots with a cigarette between his lips the whole time and still always manages to clean our clocks with his .284.

 

[CowboyBart]

+1 on rebarrelling the 700 to 280AI, My first inclination would be to go to a 6.5-06AI, but if you don't reload the 280AI is the way to go.

Oh by the way, WHY DON'T YOU RELOAD!!!??

 

[Graham]

Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

+1 on rebarrelling the 700 to 280AI, My first inclination would be to go to a 6.5-06AI, but if you don't reload the 280AI is the way to go.

Seriously?!!

Where do you get your .280AI factory ammo?

OP, you don't want to learn with a .280 anyway: Too much recoil. Go with .308.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

The one cut from the handle of an old, worn out broom.

 

[milo 2.0]

BTW a 20" barreled 308 will do 1000yards all day long, heck a shorter barreled gun can do that too. Again it comes down to shooter and training.

The top 308 shooter in the SH cup took 60th place. So he was the top gun for 2 1/2 days in that venue. I'd like to poll him and see if he was smacking steel at 1K all day long?????

Op, if you're going to rebarrel or build a rifle, the most logical choice if not wanting to reload would be 6.5 Creedmore. And with Hornady reintroducing 6mm Creedmore brass, how long will it be before they're making ammo for that round? It's the most affordable stuff going, performance is there also.

 

[Graham]

Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

The top 308 shooter in the SH cup took 60th place. So he was the top gun for 2 1/2 days in that venue. I'd like to poll him and see if he was smacking steel at 1K all day long?????

A .308 is a disadvantage at competitions like the Cup. It's not so much of a disadvantage at Rifles Only, where most shots in competition are at 600 and in.

But it's still the best round to learn on because it's easy to load for, good cheap match ammo is readily available, and it gives long barrel life.

 

[milo 2.0]

I don't question that logic Graham, but I don't recall the op saying he was setting up camp at Rifles Only, he was looking for a rifle with shots to 1k?

 

[CowboyBart]

Seriously?!!

Where do you get your .280AI factory ammo?

I think most Wal-Marts carry 280 Rem ammo. Shooting it in an AI chamber WILL have less recoil. And seriously - if you think 280 AI recoil is going to bother you, build a heavier rifle.


The bottom line is unless your a shooting prodigy and can teach yourself to hit steel in a few boxes of ammo, or make mid to high 6 figure income, reloading is your only option.

 

[Graham]

Which stick to use to learn long range shooting? opinion greatly appreciated

I think most Wal-Marts carry 280 Rem ammo. Shooting it in an AI chamber WILL have less recoil. And seriously - if you think 280 AI recoil is going to bother you, build a heavier rifle....

Hmmm....

So your advice to the OP is for him to learn long range shooting by buying a heavy rifle chambered in .280AI, then obtain .280 ammo from Wal Mart to shoot in a .280AI chamber so that he can avoid having to handload.

OP, reloading is not your only option: 308 and 6.5 Creed have affordable factory ammo available for not much more than the cost of handloads if you re-sell the brass.

 

[DoctorBen]

The only rifle I've spent much time with is my .308. But I've learned it through and through over more than 2000 rounds now, with many, many, many more left before I have to worry about replacing any parts. Was it easy to take past 600? No, but I'm a novice.

Will you make your life easier by having a higher velocity, better BC, Hand-loaded for minimized deviation in velocity, and hypersonic round? Of course! Kinda the point of those things is to make it easier to do.
But I can (or used to) be able to walk into any sporting goods store, and leave with a few boxes of FGMM in .308 and not have to worry if I couldn't fool with reloading that week.
Use whatever rifle you're going to be comfortable plowing through several thousand rounds. Make sure it fits you, and you can get/make/appropriate the ammunition.

 

[CowboyBart]

Hmmm....

So your advice to the OP is for him to learn long range shooting by buying a heavy rifle chambered in .280AI, then obtain .280 ammo from Wal Mart to shoot in a .280AI chamber so that he can avoid having to handload.

That is NOT what I am telling the OP to do. When the OP states that these are his rifles and he wants to build one or shoot one at 1K, this is one of my least painful suggestions. I didn't recommend that the OP buy anything, but if he wants to build, then yes -I stand behind my advice. I didn't see a 6.5 Crd on his list of rifles either - not there. You brought up recoil as an issue, stating the 280AI has too much. If the OP is going to rebarrel to a 7mm bore why not make it a heavier barrel, only IF the OP is recoil sensitive.
Yes, if I were painted into the box the the OP painted, I would rebarrel the R 700 to 280 AI. Use Wal Mart ammo to get trigger time and reload the brass from that gun. However, I am not painted into that box and I use a heavy 264 WM and a heavy 6/284. My next project is a heavy 6.5 RUM.
With the exception of 7.62x39 blasting ammo, I have not bought factory ammo in over 25 years. When I walk into an ammo store, I find it hard to believe that people pay those prices. Try to sell me on Nosler and FGMM ammo all you want - I'm not buying!