White oak armament accuracy

[ZA206]

I’m going to take it back out with some factory match ammo and maybe a couple of my good hand load. If it’s still acting up, it’s getting replaced.

I really hope it was something stupid like the rail touching the gas block, I’d be extremely happy.

 

[hellzna]

I’m going to take it back out with some factory match ammo and maybe a couple of my good hand load. If it’s still acting up, it’s getting replaced.

I really hope it was something stupid like the rail touching the gas block, I’d be extremely happy.

Somebody else commented on needing a lot of rounds to "break in" and I think they are correct.
I sent mine back, was told it was fine, and was it returned. Occasionally would take it out.

After some good scrubbing and about 200+ rounds, it's now shooting well and I'm happy enough with it.

Has been one of the more difficult barrels to deal with though.



24"WOA with 77smk@2880fps/ramshot tac/starline brass/cci 450s . Minimal load development


.

 

[bfoosh006]

Check the throat area... I think you have a bore scope... it might need "smoothing" in.

 

[ZA206]

Check the throat area... I think you have a bore scope... it might need "smoothing" in.

Throat looked good…

 

[ZA206]

This picture shows some rough marks in the throat…. I think.

 

[FredHammer]

WOA. You get a Wilson blank cut without lapping. You will need a Tubbs final finish kit to get it shooting sub MOA. I would buy 10 barrel batches from WOA. Shooting 77gr SMK 2700fps in 16" uppers, I would get MOA before shipping the uppers. That was my warranty. Switched to Faxon as a barrel supplier. 4150CMV shooting .25-.5 MOA same ammo. Just noticeable difference in accuracy across the board.

With that being said. Faxon are some pricks that I can't get in contact with as a dealer on the phone, email, fucking smoke signals. WOA, Jane answers every time.

 

[tomme boy]

First I have ever heard of a Faxon that will shoot under an inch. They are in the same league as Bear Creek.

 

[B Man]

WOA. You get a Wilson blank cut without lapping. You will need a Tubbs final finish kit to get it shooting sub MOA. I would buy 10 barrel batches from WOA. Shooting 77gr SMK 2700fps in 16" uppers, I would get MOA before shipping the uppers. That was my warranty. Switched to Faxon as a barrel supplier. 4150CMV shooting .25-.5 MOA same ammo. Just noticeable difference in accuracy across the board.

With that being said. Faxon are some pricks that I can't get in contact with as a dealer on the phone, email, fucking smoke signals. WOA, Jane answers every time.

.25-.5 moa!? this 1-2 shot groups? But seriously, this is unheard of from Faxon for a majority.

 

[Molon]

Switched to Faxon as a barrel supplier. 4150CMV shooting .25-.5 MOA same ammo.

..

 

[FredHammer]

@Molon - If you are the same Molon I knew from Ar15.com circa 2000-2010, during the Tatiana terminal performance threads...LOL. I much appreciated your reports, photos, and contributions. With that said, I've been around the block on what works and what doesn't. Have been ever since those days. I said I warrantied my work. So, why in the lord's fuck would I choose Faxon over WOA if I wasn't fully committed to the endeavor by my observations of results? I could possibly discount the notion Faxon "SUCKS" if it weren't for the fact that recently I contracted 350L barrels that shoot lights out.

 

[B Man]

@Molon - If you are the same Molon I knew from Ar15.com circa 2000-2010, during the Tatiana terminal performance threads...LOL. I much appreciated your reports, photos, and contributions. With that said, I've been around the block on what works and what doesn't. Have been ever since those days. I said I warrantied my work. So, why in the lord's fuck would I choose Faxon over WOA if I wasn't fully committed to the endeavor by my observations of results? I could possibly discount the notion Faxon "SUCKS" if it weren't for the fact that recently I contracted 350L barrels that shoot lights out.

@tomme boy
@B Man

Just who the fuck are you?

Someone who would love to save money and purchase all Faxon barrels if your claim were true. Which my orginal claim and this one is not saying you aren’t so calm down, but it does say I have doubts. What I am saying is your claim completely contradicts the high majority of results from Faxon barrels and if you are cranking out builds with those results then you sir have found the gold at the end of the rainbow that we all seek.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

WOA. You get a Wilson blank cut without lapping. You will need a Tubbs final finish kit to get it shooting sub MOA. I would buy 10 barrel batches from WOA. Shooting 77gr SMK 2700fps in 16" uppers, I would get MOA before shipping the uppers. That was my warranty. Switched to Faxon as a barrel supplier. 4150CMV shooting .25-.5 MOA same ammo. Just noticeable difference in accuracy across the board.

With that being said. Faxon are some pricks that I can't get in contact with as a dealer on the phone, email, fucking smoke signals. WOA, Jane answers every time.

Did you have to use a full final finish kit per barrel?

Are the WOA lapped barrels?

 

[msgriff]

Here is WOA recommended break-in procedure:

"I suspect that more barrels have been damaged than helped by "breaking in". Barrel makers take a lot of care to get a uniform finish on the inside of a barrel. Barrels are lapped not so that they will be smooth, but so that the finish and dimensions will be uniform over the entire barrel. When you use an abrasive cleaning compound you will change the finish on the inside of the barrel. Since some areas of the barrel are going to be protected by copper that you are trying to remove, and others areas are not, the surface finish is no longer going to be uniform. Since I got a bore scope I have backed off on my use of abrasive bore cleaners. I use them, but not nearly as aggressively, particularly on a new barrel.

My personal break in procedure is to take a new upper to the range and zero the front sight and shoot a group or two. This will take about 15-20 rounds. I then bring it back to the shop and clean it good with shooters and a good quality brush. I check it with a bore scope, but generally very little copper fouling is present. Depending on how it looks I may hit the throat lightly with some JB. That's it, it is now broken in.

This is for all for good quality hand lapped barrels. I will get a little more aggressive with mass produced barrels.

For general cleaning and barrel maintenance we use Hoppes #9 for cleaning, Break Free CLP for lube, and only use Dewey rods."


And for contrast, here is CLE's recommendations:


"Your new barrel will shoot best if careful attention is given to a proper break-in. Differing opinions exist; however, we recommend that no more than 20 rounds are fired at the time before cleaning the barrel for the first 80-100 rounds.
Procedure for thorough cleaning: in all cases, it is vital that cleaning tools (brushes, patches, etc.) be pushed from the breech to the muzzle and then removed from the end of the rod at the muzzle end.
NOTE: DO NOT drag anything back through the muzzle.
Clean the bore with JB Bore Cleaner after 100 rounds as follows:
1. Work the JB into the patch.
2. Wrap the patch around a worn bronze bore brush (not nylon).
3. Using a bore guide, stroke back and forth for 5 strokes past the gas port. Push patch through the muzzle and unscrew brush from rod and carefully remove rod from barrel.
4. Remove the old patch from the brush.
5. Repeat steps 1 – 5 for 5 complete cycles.
Note: A neglected barrel may require this to be repeated for many more cycles until it is smooth.
Note: The patch will never come out clean as JB is a slightly abrasive compound and is working to polish your throat and bore."


Good thread posted today by Frank Green on general cleaning and abrasives:
For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

​

 

[FredHammer]

So, I've certainly been out of the online click group of brand worship. I don't come on to these forums in some evil plot to lead people astray. I've built no less than 300 AR15s and half that in AR10s of various cartridges. Figuring out gas port sizes, tuning gas systems for 100% function because my rep was on the line, and my customers can call and complain if I weren't on my game. SO, compared to the hobbyist that might have bought 2 barrels in their lifetime, I certainly have license to talk about what works on a continual basis and what doesn't.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Yes
No. Why would I go about the trouble if they were?

I'm just surprised it needed the whole kit I've heard well made barrels only need half a kit or just the TMS rounds.

How much of a reduction in group size did you see after using the full kit?

 

[B Man]

So, I've certainly been out of the online click group of brand worship. I don't come on to these forums in some evil plot to lead people astray. I've built no less than 300 AR15s and half that in AR10s of various cartridges. Figuring out gas port sizes, tuning gas systems for 100% function because my rep was on the line, and my customers can call and complain if I weren't on my game. SO, compared to the hobbyist that might have bought 2 barrels in their lifetime, I certainly have license to talk about what works on a continual basis and what doesn't.

It has nothing to do with brand, but everything to do with results no matter what’s written on the barrel. As an online group mostly devoted to precision most take it serious, even in the semi group on here.

 

[FredHammer]

It has nothing to do with brand, but everything to do with results no matter what’s written on the barrel. As an online group mostly devoted to precision most take it serious, even in the semi group on here.

That is quite a sterile response that I don't know why you posted it.

 

[B Man]

That is quite a sterile response that I don't know why you posted it.

Coming from the guy that got insulted and felt the need to give an autobiography of himself instead of providing proof of said builds. So let’s stop the insults and being offended I have a better offer.
Message me, we will trade numbers, and talk prices to agree ahead. I have a builders set shelved I will send you the upper, you build out the upper with parts and price we agree on with a 6 arc Faxon barrel that will shoot consistent 1/2 moa at just 100 yards and I’ll gladly support your claim and your build. That’s the upper end of what you are getting from your builds so should be easily achieved and I’ll be happy with that.

 

[moosemeat]

You have a business of building uppers. He wants you to build him one. Seems pretty straight forward....

 

[bfoosh006]

Gingerman,

I have to say, that seems like a fair offer. How much do you charge for an upper or rifle in 5.56 ?
I don't dislike Faxson barrels, but they don't have a lot of posts showing .5 MOA groups, so I would also be interested.

 

[FredHammer]

Gingerman,

I have to say, that seems like a fair offer. How much do you charge for an upper or rifle in 5.56 ?
I don't dislike Faxson barrels, but they don't have a lot of posts showing .5 MOA groups, so I would also be interested.

I only have BA barreled uppers in 5.56. Same MOA warranty!

 

[bfoosh006]

Oh, If only you weren't disingenuous! Doesn't matter. I haven't been able to get ahold of Faxon for some time. I said that in a previous post. I'm also not one to die on a hill for any manufacturer. I just found it astonishing that the batches of Faxon 5.56 barrels were smoking WOA. I've tried to order those same barrels from Faxon to no avail. I did keep one of those Faxon barrels from that batch for myself. With 77 IWI Razor Core, incredible groups. I'd go out tomorrow and shoot a group and post pics, but you know what would happen? I'd be accused of shooting them at 20yds or closer, poking pencils in the target. Firing a few shots, and then calling them 10. It would never end.

What specific Faxon Barrel are you talking about ? Part number ? Link ?
I am not trying to call you out on your experiences... I just have never heard of such good results from Faxon Barrels.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

.25 MOA would be championship winning F class bench rest accuracy?

I'm sure someone on the hide can tell us

 

[Molon]

Here you go. 10-shot groups from some of my Krieger barreled AR-15s . . .

.....

 

[padom]

I havent had to use any of these Tubbs break in vudoo magic on any of my WOA's and Ive had quite a few over the years. My WOA 20" SDM (Wilson blank) was stupid accurate without any special break in procedures or magic. Just good old 77smk and 8208!





My current 20" is a WOA Bartlein 4 groove and its hammering with 52SMK and N133 which is the only thing Ive shot in it so far.

 

[FredHammer]

Here you go. 10-shot groups from some of my Krieger barreled AR-15s . . .

.....

If you ran 77SMK I bet those groups would look even better!

 

[B Man]

Well helI I guess I could add a few….

 

[Cascade Hemi]

C'mon man. Everyone knows Faxon and BA barrels are garbage. And that's your go-to? What a clown....

Let's not get retarded. I have a couple of Faxon barrels and they aren't garbage. For sure not sub MOA but not terrible either. Just for the hell of it this morning I scoped a brand new Faxon pencil barrel along with a Faxon 11.5, and a WOA 16" SPR. The Faxon barrels really don't look bad inside. That doesn't mean I'm going to press with insane claims but they aren't a horror show either.

Gingerman is a tard.

 

[padom]

This is a WOA accuracy thread. What does the above posts have anything to do with that?

You chimed in with claims we all know not to be true and didn't back it up. Period. Everything else has just derailed this thread.

Move on or people are gonna start taking vacations quick. This isn't the pit.

 

[padom]

Cleaned up. Keep it on topic with the OP or dont post at all. This shit isnt tolerated in the technical forums. We dont need pages of BS for people to have to read through to find real information on topic...

Its been established, claims were made, they werent backed up, readers can draw their own opinions from that....whatever they may be

 

[bfoosh006]

I'd still like to see your Faxon 5.56 16" Gov. Profile groups.

I believe you can shoot as well as others here have done... but I am also having a tough time believing the Faxon barrel claim based on typical examples from the web.

And Please don't bad mouth others ... honestly it makes your Faxon barrel claims seem dubious. And has clearly effected others perspectives.

You are far more level headed on another forum. Why not here ?

Slamming someone like Molon for using the same consistent 100yd for .223 / 5.56 results is silly.
Honestly, a consistent 100yd standard for .223 / 5.56 ammo is a very valuable reference point.
I can't think of anyone else that has provided a more consistent testing measure on the internet for .223 / 5.56 ammo.
I would bet Molon can shoot just as far as you... and to make it easy to prove, he could do it with your various rifles.

 

[padom]

I've had a lot of experience with WOA barrels and the company. Very viable option for someone not wanting to get into the hand lapped premium level like Krieger, Lilja, etc.

Your statements are false about WOA. Why are they only a very viable company for "...someone not wanting to get into the hand lapped premium level like Krieger, Lilja, etc. ...." ???

WOA does and has for many years given the customer many options at many different levels for the customer to choose. They have sold Krieger Bartlein barrels for a LONG time. Someone cant go to WOA and buy a hand lapped Bartlein or Krieger barrel?? Thats news to me because I have multiple in the safe right now from WOA.

Also, I dont know where you get your information from, but I can tell you right now Wilson laps their blanks. Thats straight from Wilson. I just confirmed that right now with them for you.... So again, that's another false statement. Im just putting the info out there, because there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

 

[padom]

I've had a lot of experience with WOA barrels and the company. If someone is considering them for AR builds, as discussed in this thread, if you can get them to shoot MOA and possibly better with some break in. (10rnds slow fire when you are in your zen mojo) WOA customer service is friendly. Very viable option for someone not wanting to get into the hand lapped premium level like Krieger, Lilja, etc. It's awesome when a gun doesn't need much to print great groups. There is also some fun in the challenge of getting one barrel to shoot through various tinkering methods. (That task on a wholesale level is a PITA)

Don't just take my word for it though. Search the forum, the internet on WOA barrel performance. I am but one source reporting on them.

Why do you keep posting information like its fact then deleting your posts??

 

[FredHammer]

Why do you keep posting information like its fact then deleting your posts??

So, I guess we can't move on then. You said clean it up. You said my pics of other rigs weren't relevant. So I tied to clean up the thread as much as I could on my end. I only deleted the shit posting.

So I tried to get the thread back onto WOA, but I see afterwards you called me a liar and joined in on the goblins sniping at me. I find that odd of a moderator to do that, but whatever. So, I decided to delete the post and move on.

 

[padom]

So, I guess we can't move on then. You said clean it up. You said my pics of other rigs weren't relevant. So I tied to clean up the thread as much as I could on my end. I only deleted the shit posting.

No, you didnt. You posted about WOA and their barrels and lapping, etc. AFTER I said that and cleaned everything up. Then when I told you your information was false, you now deleted that post.....

 

[FredHammer]

I'd still like to see your Faxon 5.56 16" Gov. Profile groups.

I'll get to it. Groups shot with those Faxons are long gone, considering it was 8yrs ago. I initially got a couple to try from Aim Surplus and they were shooting lights out, like I mentioned in the thread. 3-5rnd groups. It's not hard to get .25-.5 from that.

I believe you can shoot as well as others here have done... but I am also having a tough time believing the Faxon barrel claim based on typical examples from the web.

I'm not bad. I haven't seen evidence presented of Faxons shooting bad either. I haven't researched it. Last 5.56 upper built with a Faxon was again, 7-8yrs ago. I had other reasons to stop building with Faxon as stated previously.

And Please don't bad mouth others ... honestly it makes your Faxon barrel claims seem dubious. And has clearly effected others perspectives.

Being called a liar and taunted by SH goblins will have me showing some teeth too.

You are far more level headed on another forum. Why not here ?

I imagine it's the general maturity level of that forum. More members there are about helping each other out and providing help though anecdotes, life experiences. Tougher bunch over here. Always has been since 2006.

Slamming someone like Molon for using the same consistent 100yd for .223 / 5.56 results is silly.
Honestly, a consistent 100yd standard for .223 / 5.56 ammo is a very valuable reference point.
I can't think of anyone else that has provided a more consistent testing measure on the internet for .223 / 5.56 ammo.
I would bet Molon can shoot just as far as you... and to make it easy to prove, he could do it with your various rifles.

I don't disagree with any particular point. Molon is a big boy, I am sure he didn't loose sleep over me razzing him, like he was razzing me.

 

[FredHammer]

Your statements are false about WOA. Why are they only a very viable company for "...someone not wanting to get into the hand lapped premium level like Krieger, Lilja, etc. ...." ???

WOA does and has for many years given the customer many options at many different levels for the customer to choose. They have sold Krieger Bartlein barrels for a LONG time. Someone cant go to WOA and buy a hand lapped Bartlein or Krieger barrel?? Thats news to me because I have multiple in the safe right now from WOA.

You know, I was only focused on the WOA brand in my comments. I'm glad you brought up this point. I'll get a Krieger barrel or some such premium brand if I decide to go that route from WOA.

Also, I dont know where you get your information from, but I can tell you right now Wilson laps their blanks. Thats straight from Wilson. I just confirmed that right now with them for you.... So again, that's another false statement. Im just putting the info out there, because there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

That is good to know. Aren't we all students to the grave? Thanks for taking the time to call on my behalf.

 

[simonp]

I don’t think that I’ve posted a target on the hide previously & full disclosure I’m not a competitor or anything like it. I’m slowly working on both my skills at the reloading bench and the shooting bench for precision. That being said this is from last week out of a WOA barrel, 2x fired LAke City , Ram Tac powder & 69 SMK at 100 yard doing a seating depth test.

Yeah this was the best of the 10 I tested that day but it is indicative of the results I’ve seen with WOA - I’m sure the barrels can perform & perform better….

 

[Molon]

like I mentioned in the thread. 3-5rnd groups. It's not hard to get .25-.5 from that.

I can do that with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel shooting bi-metal jacketed Wolf ammunition. So that kind of a "guarantee" means nothing.

….

 

[padom]

chrome lined 10.5" 55 VMAX... 5 shot groups.... hahahah

 

[MontanaMan]

Your statements are false about WOA. Why are they only a very viable company for "...someone not wanting to get into the hand lapped premium level like Krieger, Lilja, etc. ...." ???

WOA does and has for many years given the customer many options at many different levels for the customer to choose. They have sold Krieger Bartlein barrels for a LONG time. Someone cant go to WOA and buy a hand lapped Bartlein or Krieger barrel?? Thats news to me because I have multiple in the safe right now from WOA.

Also, I dont know where you get your information from, but I can tell you right now Wilson laps their blanks. Thats straight from Wilson. I just confirmed that right now with them for you.... So again, that's another false statement. Im just putting the info out there, because there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

True, that. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You need to send this guy to the bench for a while...............what an idiot.

MM

 

[FredHammer]

@Molon
@padom

So, now shooting .25 & .5 3-5 shot groups is so easy anybody can recreate the feat with the lowest of quality parts and ammo. Then what was the whole fucking dumpster fire, goblin pile up, character assassination crusade all about? Why am I such a liar when I said I did it? Fucking unbelievable you two!

 

[padom]

@Molon
@padom

So, now shooting .25 & .5 3-5 shot groups is so easy anybody can recreate the feat with the lowest of quality parts and ammo. Then what was the whole fucking dumpster fire, goblin pile up, character assassination crusade all about? Why am I such a liar when I said I did it? Fucking unbelievable you two!

A rifle is not a 0.25moa rifle if it shoots 1 group... thats the whole point of what we are saying. We can shoot a 0.25moa group.. but shooting a 6x5 AGG of 0.25moa....no way thats completely different.

If you said, my Faxin barrels shot a 0.25moa group once. Or a 3 shot 0.25moa group that would be completely different than what you said.

 

[FredHammer]

A rifle is not a 0.25moa rifle if it shoots 1 group... thats the whole point of what we are saying. We can shoot a 0.25moa group.. but shooting a 6x5 AGG of 0.25moa....no way thats completely different.

I agree

If you said, my Faxin barrels shot a 0.25moa group once. Or a 3 shot 0.25moa group that would be completely different than what you said.

It was made abundantly clear I was building uppers for sale and test firing them. Test fire for gas system check and then some for accuracy. I wasn't gonna accuracy test fire 30rnds a gun. It would have been great if someone would have clarified the .25 and .5 test fire groups number of rounds. Maybe you could have done that as a moderator, you know, somebody that is supposed to be a disinterested party to the matter. Try to resolve issues, not inflame them.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

All the reports I've seen on SH is woa makes a solid barrel and the aggregate of the results are better than what the ginger reports

 

[TX_Dan]

I’ve had nothing but great experiences with WOA barrels and John & team. Two A2 uppers, a Rock River NM trigger cleaned up (ok it was a while ago..), half a dozen service rifle barrels and a couple of RPR barrels in and no complaints. Lot of those barrels shooting across the course when I was active…

 

[FredHammer]

All the reports I've seen on SH is woa makes a solid barrel and the aggregate of the results are better than what the ginger reports

They do. If I were buying for myself I'd have time to break them in. When you're installing barrels on builds it made no sense to get bogged down with barrels that weren't grouping out of the gate in test fire.

 

[FredHammer]

This picture shows some rough marks in the throat…. I think.

Looks like those concentric rings might be giving you problems. Does the barrel copper badly?

 

[Rob01]

Guess some of you don't understand derailing. Next post that is a derail of this topic will be banned for a month. Think long and hard if it's worth it or not.

 

[ZA206]

Looks like those concentric rings might be giving you problems. Does the barrel copper badly?

I haven’t noticed it coppering much, but then again, I’ve only got about 200 rounds through it.
I did notice the gas port looked like there might be a burr, but I’m not sure. I know my Bartlein (1300 rounds) does not look like this.

I also found that the handguard was touching the gas block, and I have since corrected that issue.

I’m going on the assumption that the issues were with the handguard touching the gas block and it will shoot better now. I’m going to do a “put out or get out” test with it the next time I’ve at the range.