Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IF I refuse to show a form for a suppressor here in Oklahoma (again, not that I WOULD) the consequence is the LEO either walks away or I sue him </div></div>For what?

I asked the same question before and didn't get an answer:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm going to sue the hell out of him and his department...</div></div>Under what legal theory?</div></div>
So, I'll put it another way: What are you going to sue him for and what are your damages?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Just an FYI

You haven't determined if they fall under the dangerous device clause that just about every state has.

Oklahoma is hard to read, it's not very clear and the resources are not very searchable, however they do have a dangerous device catch-all.

Sure there are 50 States, but someone taking your advice FM has a better than 50% chance of getting arrested. Look up where our Georgia friend thought he was exempt and it was legal there. Wrong, Odds are Oklahoma is uniquely legal, but most states all read the same way, so not even questioning LE in this case and showing paperwork not only makes sense, but is the smarter thing to do.

I would not hesitate and tell people reading this thread, listen to you at your own peril, smart money is your advice, even in Oklahoma will cost you.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

suppressors are NOT illegal in Oklahoma... they are not Illegal under federal law ( there is also NO requirement for me to carry or show local LEO paperwork under federal law)... so IF I were to refuse or be unable to show paperwork in Oklahoma and get arrested, I'd sue for false arrest and imprisonment... or however my lawyer worded it... the damages would be at LEAST the loss of my freedom for a period of time...

suppressors being LEGAL here, an officer has NO reasonable suspicion OR probable cause to even approach me about them... much less arrest me

 

[fdkay]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok... clarification... CAN they refuse and not get arrested... legally

</div></div>

Legally.
Yes, they can refuse and not get arrested.
The citizen is normally the one that sets the tone during an encounter with LE, it should actually be the citizen ALWAYS sets the tone, but sadly, not so.

If you are cordial and civil and politely decline, or forgot your documents the officer may use discretion and gather your information and possibly (though not necessarily)impound the item for safekeeping and issue you a receipt.

The item would be secured in evidence until you provided proof of legal possession.

Just two nights ago on a routine traffic stop, we encountered a man in possession of a stolen handgun. He was also in possession of numerous other firearms which had come back clear. We were polite, he was polite. He was placed in hand restraints pending outcome. His story made sense and he had no criminal history what so ever, we captured the firearm, logged it into evidence, gathered information and released him.
We COULD have arrested him and charged him with theft firearm. But we did no feel that he intentionally or knowingly possessed a stolen firearm.
Now, had he been a complete jackass, it most likely would have had an effect on our investigation and he likely would have gone to jail.
FWIW, he still complained.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just an FYI

You haven't determined if they fall under the dangerous device clause that just about every state has.

Oklahoma is hard to read, it's not very clear and the resources are not very searchable, however they do have a dangerous device catch-all.

Sure there are 50 States, but someone taking your advice FM has a better than 50% chance of getting arrested. Look up where our Georgia friend thought he was exempt and it was legal there. Wrong, Odds are Oklahoma is uniquely legal, but most states all read the same way, so not even questioning LE in this case and showing paperwork not only makes sense, but is the smarter thing to do.

I would not hesitate and tell people reading this thread, listen to you at your own peril, smart money is your advice, even in Oklahoma will cost you.

</div></div>


first of all.. it's not advise...

second... yes, I can see how advise from a guy from Co and a lawyer from Mich (who has a LEO slant since he is also LE) would be better than the advise i got from my OKLAHOMA lawyer (who just happens to have spent a couple terms as a OK law maker and is a shooting enthusiast).... yes, makes perfect sense


MY advise to people has always been show it and move on... I just see and hear NOTHING in Oklahoma that says I have to, or that IF I don't, that I can be legally arrested...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">second... yes, I can see how advise from a guy from Co and a lawyer from Mich (who has a LEO slant since he is also LE) would be better than the advise i got from my OKLAHOMA lawyer (who just happens to have spent a couple terms as a OK law maker and is a shooting enthusiast).... yes, makes perfect sense</div></div>I'm not giving legal advice on this Thread, I'm trying to identify the concepts of criminal procedure that are involved and explain how they work in the real world. What, exactly, did your lawyer tell you in this regard?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Looking at it, and because they just lately legalized suppressors for hunting, I am willing to bet that you are wrong and your attorney is wrong when it comes to silencers in OK.

If they had no restriction at all people would be saying you can own one in OK without a Form 4 , since everything I have read says OK silencers are covered by they NFA there must be something there that makes them illegal without the federal paperwork.

Every Trust lawyer website lists them with all Class 3 devices.

If suppressors were legal without the paperwork, we'd hear about it and everything via Google lists them with ever other Class 3 device.

I would be willing to bet on there own they are illegal. Like every other state.

 

[Skunk]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

It has been said several times in this thread (by me and txgw, at least) that state laws can be, and often are, more restrictive than Federal Laws. So, when you, FM, say, "they are not Illegal under federal law" that absolutely does not mean that the state cannot say it's illegal. And, the absence of a Federal law prohibiting a certain behavior/item does not compel a state to accept a more lenient stance on that behavior/item.

You can't stand toe to toe with a State/Local LEO and say, "well, there's not a Fed statute saying I can't do this/have this, so you can just go get bent, Mr. Policeman."

Well, you can, but you'd not have any legal ground to stand on...

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

whatever... the point is, that's your opinion.. and mine is different... but YOU called me and people who may agree w/ me "kooks"...

and I'll always choose to take advise from damn near any Ok attorney over a guy from CO w/ no legal credentials.. or a LEO/attorney from Mich....

and in our opinion the fact that they did recently make them legal to hunt with... HELPS our argument

 

[krw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suppressors are NOT illegal in Oklahoma... they are not Illegal under federal law ( there is also NO requirement for me to carry or show local LEO paperwork under federal law)... so IF I were to refuse or be unable to show paperwork in Oklahoma and get arrested, I'd sue for false arrest and imprisonment... or however my lawyer worded it... the damages would be at LEAST the loss of my freedom for a period of time...

suppressors being LEGAL here, an officer has NO reasonable suspicion OR probable cause to even approach me about them... much less arrest me </div></div>
Suppressors are an NFA controled item in OK. They can be bought at the Tulsa gun shows but you cannot take delivery until after paperwork clears. And I understand I cannot buy one period because like handguns they have to be bought in your state of residence. The N in NFA stands for 'National'.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Yet it was the guy with no legal background from CO who showed the guy in GA he was wrong.

And I will also stand by the assertion anyone listening to you will find themselves in more trouble then listening to my advice in this case. You're dangerous to gun owners, plain and simple.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

well, if they're actually listening to me (like you seem to not be capable of).. they'll show the form and move on w/ their day

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suppressors are NOT illegal in Oklahoma... they are not Illegal under federal law ( there is also NO requirement for me to carry or show local LEO paperwork under federal law)... so IF I were to refuse or be unable to show paperwork in Oklahoma and get arrested, I'd sue for false arrest and imprisonment... or however my lawyer worded it... the damages would be at LEAST the loss of my freedom for a period of time...

suppressors being LEGAL here, an officer has NO reasonable suspicion OR probable cause to even approach me about them... much less arrest me </div></div>
Suppressors are an NFA controled item in OK. They can be bought at the Tulsa gun shows but you cannot take delivery until after paperwork clears. And I understand I cannot buy one period because like handguns they have to be bought in your state of residence. The N in NFA stands for 'National'.</div></div>

Exactly, can you buy a suppressor in OK and walk out the door with it ?

Why do you think that is ?

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

that is a federal staute... that LOCAL LE areen't charged w/ enforcing

geez

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

kinda the same as marijuana in some states... locals can't arrest you, but federal can

 

[krw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

If you could buy and walk out the door with em, I'd have the top shelf of my gun safe lined with em

. And I bet if they were not an NFA item, the price would go down dramatically also.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

So you can make one at home then? And local LE can't do anything about it?

 

[krw]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

that is a federal staute... that LOCAL LE areen't charged w/ enforcing

geez [/quote Your a dumbfuck! I'm outa this.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kinda the same as marijuana in some states... locals can't arrest you, but federal can</div></div>

Ah, wrong,

You can still be arrested if you have "x" amount and especially you have no prescription. By local LE.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So you can make one at home then? And local LE can't do anything about it?

</div></div>

according to my lawyer... course they'd just refer it to the FEDERAL law enforcement... but LOCAL can't do anything except report it, just like you could

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">kinda the same as marijuana in some states... locals can't arrest you, but federal can</div></div>

Ah, wrong,

You can still be arrested if you have "x" amount and especially you have no prescription. By local LE.

</div></div>

now you're just trying to pull stuff out to make you're (possibly incorrect) point... (see,I even acknowledge that you may know oklahoma law) .. but the unneeded continuation to the marijuana comment was "if you're in compliance w/ the state law") since compliance w/ state law strips any issue w/ local LE, but still violates federal law

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

And just an FYI
Oklahoma law clearly says, that while LE is not obligated to enforce Federal law, they can certainly do so if they choose. Which translates, they can arrest you if they catch you violating it.

Local and State authorities are not obligated to enforce federal firearms law or notify federal authorities of federal firearms law violations, however they may, or may not, choose to do so.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

but again... I'm not saying anywhere that FEDERAL law has even been violated... since there is NO federal law requiring you to carry papers, or even show them to anyone except the ATF...


look, I'm done...

the simple answer to the OP's original question as written is "anyone can ask"

the answer to the question as most of us probably think he meant it is "it varies by state law and NONE of us, LEO attorneys, etc really know since it apparently rarely happens that LE asks, and none of us know of or can't readily find ANY case were anyone refused, but it's really easy and best to just show the form and move on after 30 seconds"

 

[jamesZ71]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

is like this,not one LOE knows every up to date state and/or federal law currently active
so why not just
pay the proper fees,file the proper papers,and when asked by any state or federal officer just show them the proper papers to prove legal ownership of such item and go on you marry way.

but that would be to easy ,just my 2cents

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I think you should prove us all wrong by making a suppressor at your home, using it front of local LE and then telling him it is legal in OK and that Federal law doesn't require you to show any proof of ownership, because technically you haven't violated any law according to you. And if Federal law says nobody can challenge you but an ATF agent, your covered.

Do us that favor and report back, that would satisfy me

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

lotta things would satisfy me... and they're not as retarded as what you just posted.. but, they're still not a good idea

 

[athhud]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I can't believe I just read this entire thread and not a single one of you seemingly half-intelligent fucks could read and articulate a coherent argument, until Swil came along....

According to Texas law (as I read in this thread), you are not breaking a single law (federal or state) by refusing to show a form 4 etc. to anyone but an ATF agent. However, you are breaking a law by being in possession of a suppressor. Whether or not you have a form 4, SOT, or tennis ball signed by the Pope you are still in violation of the statute. As it reads, any officer who may not be certain of what is required to own an NFA item can perform an arrest right there on the spot. You can show him your original form 4 and anything else you'd like to provide representing federal compliance, but the officer would still be acting within the law to perform the arrest because the statute prohibits your actions. I forgot which state said what about burden of proof, but when the burden is transferred to the defendant in a court of law, THEN and ONLY then is your form 4 worth two shits as a legal defense. I would highly imagine that an ATF representative would be present to verify authenticity, so this is where the ATF legalese comes into play. The end result is: to avoid felony charges, you must present your proof of legal ownership to an ATF agent or in the very least a judge. As far as the illegal search and seizure junk..... By Texas statute you are in the process of a criminal act when you are in possession of a suppressor. You don't need probable cause or a warrant to arrest a criminal in the act. Please do not confuse my interpretation of such a cluster-fuck of legislature to be in any way related to my opinion on the matter.

With all of that said, any officer/DA/judge that has any sense at all will not waste everyone's time, if you provide them with the proper document upon request. This does not make it a legal requirement (which is what FM has been getting at the whole time), just a good idea.

Since it has clearly been established that this is a cop-hating thread, I'll stay on topic..... Any piece of shit son-of-a-bitch that would even consider arresting anyone at a range for the mere possession of a suppressor is cum-guzzling rat fink that should have met their demise in a dumpster immediately following birth. I don't care if they tape a 2 liter bottle filled with steel wool to the end of their hi-point carbine. They aren't posing a threat to a single soul and no one will benefit, in any way, from the arrest of such an individual.

Edit: I forgot my obligatory insult. You are all a bunch of dumb bunnies!

The "new kid" showed up to school one day when I was in 7th grade. After he was greeted with the traditional hazing of the new guy, he stood up in the middle of class and said "You're all a bunch of dumb bunnies!" I've never forgotten that and have never heard that insult used by anyone not referencing that epic moment in history. I'm sure a bunch of assholes such as yourself think you've been called everything in the book, but I bet dumb bunny is a first. Now fuck off and have a blessed day.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the simple answer to the OP's original question as written is "anyone can ask"
</div></div>I see that you found my very first post on this Thread; before you ever got involved with this Thread.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone can ask. </div></div>

 

[Stag15m4]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

..I dont FEEL like a dumb bunny...

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't care if they tape a 2 liter bottle filled with steel wool to the end of their hi-point carbine.</div></div>

Hmmmmm...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are all a bunch of dumb bunnies! </div></div>LOL!

Maybe re-read the second paragraph of your post because it's not only wrong, its also a mis-reading of the information in this Thread.

If you do that then maybe seventh grade won't call... And ask for their bunny back.

 

[athhud]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe re-read the second paragraph of your post because it's not only wrong, its also a mis-reading of the information in this Thread.
D</div></div>

Being the original author of said paragraph, I am well aware of what it says. I don't need to read it again to grasp the message that it delivers. If there are misinterpretations, please feel free to point them out. You are the one schooled in the ways of reading the B.S., I just apply literacy and common sense to what is written. My ignorance of proper semantics allow for technically incorrect statements, but I'd be extremely surprised to find the general idea of that paragraph to be incorrect in any way (based solely on the laws provided in this thread).

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being the original author of said paragraph, I am well aware of what it says...I just apply literacy and common sense to what is written.</div></div>You got the result of the burden wrong, the info about the ATF wrong and the criminal procedure wrong.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

He is from Alabama, they get sisters and girlfriends wrong all the time...

 

[treebasher]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is from Alabama, they get sisters and girlfriends wrong all the time...

</div></div>

He probably got rid of his first wife because she was a virgin. If she wasn't good enough for her own family how in the hell would she be good enough for his??

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I am surprised this is still going on.

For those that say "It's my right" - Got it. Duly noted. I'm a libertarian, but a pragmatic one at that.

Maybe it is just the rain in these parts, but I have yet to meet a LEO that was so whacked out on a power trip that they applied the same circumstances to everything they saw. (That'd mean they profile for those not paying attention). In such discretionary capacity, I WANT them to make some level of inquiry when a fish is clearly out of water.


Good luck

 

[Kilmore]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

On my last trip to the local range earlier this year, many of the guys shooting semi autos has suppressors on their weapons. Most of the attention anybody got was to see how well the can was working. I let a off duty Sheriff run 10 rounds through my rifle so he could get a feel for it. Nobody gives anybody a sideways glance in Utah.

 

[athhud]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You got the result of the burden wrong, the info about the ATF wrong and the criminal procedure wrong. </div></div>

According to this thread, the burden of proof varies from state to state. If you'll actually read what I wrote, I made it very clear that I was not associating the burden with any state or defendant. How you can say that I "got it wrong" when I did not make any reference to any particular statute, court, or state is beyond me. What info did I provide about the ATF that is wrong? If you thought for one second that I presumed to know anything about actual criminal procedure based on that general interpretation, you gave me far more credit than you should have. It is very clear that I was guessing about how all of that went down. That is why I used words like "imagine" and didn't use any fancy legal terms

Of course, none of that really matters much as far as this topic is concerned. Since my ignorance of criminal procedure hinders your ability to read between the lines, please explain to me how things would go down when a Texas LEO:

Spots a citizen with a suppressor.
Recalls that suppressors are illegal in Texas.
Knows nothing about NFA stamps.
Makes an arrest and by some stroke of stupidity, the case makes it to a court of law.

 

[athhud]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is from Alabama, they get sisters and girlfriends wrong all the time...

</div></div>

And you foiled hat kooks in Colorado shoot up theaters...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you foiled hat kooks in Colorado shoot up theaters... </div></div>That's not even remotely funny.

 

[treebasher]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He is from Alabama, they get sisters and girlfriends wrong all the time...

</div></div>

And you foiled hat kooks in Colorado shoot up theaters...</div></div>

The dipshit you are referring to was born and raised in San Diego & Castroville, California. Get your facts straight.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: athhud</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And you foiled hat kooks in Colorado shoot up theaters... </div></div>That's not even remotely funny.</div></div>

but incest is?

 

[athhud]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: treebasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The dipshit you are referring to was born and raised in San Diego & Castroville, California. Get your facts straight.</div></div>

I stated no facts dumbass. Just trying to blend in with you other morons saying stupid shit.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

You guys seriously need to quit ... Like not kidding seriously.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Umm, just tossing this out there as a crazy idea, but seeing that the thread has exhausted it's usefulness....

Lock it? Just sayin'...