Who DOES NOT clean the copper out of the bore?

[hlee]

I don't know how you come up with carbon being a protectant. Diamonds, the most abrasive thing on earth are made of carbon. Carbon is an abrasive, not a protectant.

Lots of stuff is made from carbon, including (but not limited to) graphite and oil- both can be lubricants.

 

[Graham]

So, Graham, in all seriousness, is there a way to clean only some out, and if so, how do you know when to stop? Or should you clean it and foul it again? Thanks for your input.

Methods vary, but here's what I do, and keep in mind I do it only when groups start opening-up which is about every 400-600 rounds: One or two patches Kroil. That gets at the carbon. One patch Butch's or similar copper solvent. Then Butch's on a nylon brush, once through the bore and then back with short yanks to deposit the solvent. Wait five minutes. One or two dry patches. Then one patch Kroil to neutralize any solvent remaining in the bore. You will see some copper on the dry patches, but if you look in the bore there will visible copper left on the rifling. That's my full cleaning until another five hundred rounds or so, and I don't have to shoot additional rounds to regain my zero.

There is some validity to the fouled-bore theory. I rarely have or store my rifles with a clean bore so I don't really care. But I know of some large agencies that changed their procedures for after having cleaned their rifles and now shoot the rifle before storage/readiness. Those agencies keep track of their fouled bore cold bore shots instead of their clean cold bore shots.

 

[SWThomas]

Who DOES NOT clean copper out of the bore? Is this a trick question? My first thought was, "Cast boolit guys?"

Seriously, I saw quite a bit written by the bore scope crowd that it was the CARBON RING...carbon deposits right ahead of the chamber that was the enemy. The ring swages the bullet enough that it becomes slightly undersized and then does not "fit" properly as it goes down the barrel. So some guys are most obsessed with carbon build up right ahead of the chamber and have become less worried about copper.

I'm having a hard time believing that carbon would get hard enough to cut a speeding bullet down to a different size. I've dealt with carbon and it's just not that hard.

 

[Graham]

I've dealt with carbon and it's just not that hard.

I know carbon: Carbon thinks he's pretty hard; but compared to some others he's really not that hard..... LOL!

 

[Drifter™]

Copper doesn't seem to be a significant issue when using match bullets in a good bore.

However, using some premium hunting bullets, such as those with bonded cores, seems to result in excessive copper fouling that requires attention after a particular number of rounds fired (varies by individual case).

 

[gilgamesh1]

On a different application, high power competition. One of our High Master shooters who shot for the AMU when he was younger, installed a new Krieger barrel in his AR service rifle. He wanted to see at what point would the rifle quit shooting, he shot the rifle in competition and in practice till the rifle did not go bang. The rifle lasted 3700 rounds with no cleaning. He thoroughly cleaned the rifle and shot it again without cleaning any thing, including the BCG. At out state service rifle championship his rifle did not go bang during the standing stage. He took out the BCG, oiled and freed the firing pin, barrel was not cleaned and finished the stage. This time the rifle lasted 3500. The rifle went through 7200 rounds and I would say with no degradation in accuracy - the shooter won the 600 yard event over a field of a few HMs among the 90+ shooters. His X count at 600 was still over 50%.

A few more matches after the state match the barrel gave up. He replaced it and went back to his normal cleaning routine after each 80 shot match. His new barrel did not last any longer than the one that was cleaned twice, when new and after 3700.


nez rongero

Along the same lines as above. I took a rifle course awhile ago where the instructor only cleaned his bolt rifle for carbon before he put it away. Never for copper. He was over 3000 rounds with no accuracy or reliability problems. None that I could see anyways. My experience/opinion is worth little, but that instructor was a former marine scout sniper instructor, so his experience probably deserves some credibility. It made me feel better about my own practice.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

I'm having a hard time believing that carbon would get hard enough to cut a speeding bullet down to a different size. I've dealt with carbon and it's just not that hard.

I'm not saying that. I am questioning the theory that carbon is protecting the barrel and copper is hurting it. That theory I find questionable to my extremely limited knowledge.

 

[luvtolean]

Along the same lines as above. I took a rifle course awhile ago where the instructor only cleaned his bolt rifle for carbon before he put it away. Never for copper. He was over 3000 rounds with no accuracy or reliability problems. None that I could see anyways. My experience/opinion is worth little, but that instructor was a former marine scout sniper instructor, so his experience probably deserves some credibility. It made me feel better about my own practice.

That very much sounds like Caylon...who told us not to bore punch our rifles during the Magpul class to show everyone you don't need to wear out your barrel cleaning...

 

[gilgamesh1]

It was Caylen. PR1 in Yakima. I am pretty cautious about what information I accept/absorb. My general take on things is that most everyone and everything I hear is useless. But there are a few people that know what they are talking about. Caylen has my respect. My buddy who took the course with me feels the same way.

 

[Graham]

It was Caylen. PR1 in Yakima. I am pretty cautious about what information I accept/absorb. My general take on things is that most everyone and everything I hear is useless. But there are a few people that know what they are talking about. Caylen has my respect. My buddy who took the course with me feels the same way.

If Caylen says it, you can take it to the bank and borrow money on it.

 

[usmc02xx]

I knew carbon sir, and you sir, are no carbon.

 

[-Nick-]

I think it's reasonable enough for everyone to agree that there is no clear direction on this issue and every rifle has it's own cleaning regime which works best, but we can all agree that cleaning it EVERY time you go out is NOT a good idea.

 

[Graham]

...and every rifle has it's own cleaning regiment which works best.

A regiment is at least three thousand, with a Colonel in command.

That's a lot of people to get the copper from just one rifle. Was this your idea, and are you a staff officer?

 

[-Nick-]

A regiment is at least three thousand, with a Colonel in command.

That's a lot of people to get the copper from just one rifle. Was this your idea, and are you a staff officer?

Damn auto-correct threw me under the bus on my tablet... lol... But it never hurts to have as many people on hand as possible when dealing with me

 

[gstaylorg]

PROPER cleaning does not harm a barrel. I'll repeat that...proper cleaning does not harm a barrel. Improper cleaning can harm a barrel no matter how often or seldom it's done. The cleaning debate seems to crop up here on a pretty regular basis. It's generally very entertaining to read all the different opinions, some of which have seem to have absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever. The same question posted on other shooting forums that emphasize different types of shooting will receive a totally different set of answers, which should tell you that a lot of what you read on the internet is opinion, not fact. For example, long range target shooters such as F-Class will generally tell you they clean every time they shoot the rifle. I also follow this cleaning regimen. Considering there are literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of F-Class shooters worldwide whose sole goal is sub-MOA accuracy/precision, I rather suspect cleaning after every shoot would not be the norm if it was damaging all their barrels to the point accuracy/precision was rapidly degrading. I currently have several .308 GAPS with Bartlein 5R barrels that have always been cleaned each time they were used, regardless of the number of rounds fired. A couple of these are well over 3000 rounds and they are just as accurate as the day I first got them. If you want to believe that proper cleaning hurts the barrel, hey, it's a free country. I would suggest that barrel damage is far more likely the result of cleaning (or something else) done improperly, rather than a regular and proper cleaning regimen. I choose to clean mine and I have plenty of evidence based on accuracy/precision in in MR and LR competition that it doesn't harm the barrels.

 

[Graham]

If you want to believe that proper cleaning hurts the barrel, hey, it's a free country. I would suggest that barrel damage is far more likely the result of cleaning (or something else) done improperly, rather than a regular and proper cleaning regimen.

I glanced through this Thread and did not see where anyone said that proper cleaning harms a barrel. Did I miss it?

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Methods vary, but here's what I do, and keep in mind I do it only when groups start opening-up which is about every 400-600 rounds: One or two patches Kroil. That gets at the carbon. One patch Butch's or similar copper solvent. Then Butch's on a nylon brush, once through the bore and then back with short yanks to deposit the solvent. Wait five minutes. One or two dry patches. Then one patch Kroil to neutralize any solvent remaining in the bore. You will see some copper on the dry patches, but if you look in the bore there will visible copper left on the rifling. That's my full cleaning until another five hundred rounds or so, and I don't have to shoot additional rounds to regain my zero.

There is some validity to the fouled-bore theory. I rarely have or store my rifles with a clean bore so I don't really care. But I know of some large agencies that changed their procedures for after having cleaned their rifles and now shoot the rifle before storage/readiness. Those agencies keep track of their fouled bore cold bore shots instead of their clean cold bore shots.

Thank you very much, Graham. This is what I was interested to hear.

 

[Graham]

Thank you very much, Graham. This is what I was interested to hear.

That almost makes-up for calling me an arrogant prick who denigrates others. LOL!

 

[Sniper Uncle]

That almost makes-up for calling me an arrogant prick who denigrates others. LOL!

I thought we got over that about two months ago. LOL Anyway, I do value some of your opinions. Some I find very entertaining, and the rest, well, two out of three aint bad, now, is it.....

 

[bustin]

I don't know how you come up with carbon being a protectant. Diamonds, the most abrasive thing on earth are made of carbon. Carbon is an abrasive, not a protectant.

Carbon isn't a diamond...it's carbon left from the burning powder. If you figure out how to turn the carbon in barrels to diamonds let us know I'll be rich SOB.

One thing I will add. If the barrel has stopped copper fouling there is no need to try to clean it out.
One look inside a barrel with a borescope will answer many questions. If it's covered with copper it is copper fouling. If it's covered with carbon then it has stopped copper fouling. It will continue to build carbon at a very slow rate and should be accurate during most of that time. When the carbon gets too thick accuracy will drop off and it's time to clean. After cleaning it may take a few shots or 40 shots for the accuracy to come back. During that time unless copper fouling it is building up a layer of carbon.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Carbon isn't a diamond...it's carbon left from the burning powder. If you figure out how to turn the carbon in barrels to diamonds let us know I'll be rich SOB.

If you would read the quote you just cited, I never said that carbon is diamond. I said diamonds----which are abrasive---are composed of carbon. Further, if you know about engines, soot, roughly the same chemical make up as the soot in your gun barrel, is abrasive, and that is why the lube oils suspend the soot, coating it to prevent it from damaging the bigness internals.

You still fail to make a case for soot---carbon--- to be protecting the bore.
That is the issue I am questioning.

 

[bustin]

If you would read the quote you just cited, I never said that carbon is diamond. I said diamonds----which are abrasive---are composed of carbon. Further, if you know about engines, soot, roughly the same chemical make up as the soot in your gun barrel, is abrasive, and that is why the lube oils suspend the soot, coating it to prevent it from damaging the bigness internals.

You still fail to make a case for soot---carbon--- to be protecting the bore.
That is the issue I am questioning.

I' don't really care how you clean you barrels, if what you do works for you have at it. I don't need to make a case I've been making barrels since the 70s, my customers understand what they need to do to keep their barrels shooting well and that is all that really matters to me. Some people come here looking for good advice, they'll have to weed through a bunch of BS but at some point some will find the info written by professionals that know what they are talking about. The others, well it may take them a little longer to figure out what works or they give up and settle for 1" or larger groups.
Go read some articles in Precision Shooting magazine. They have stopped publishing after many years but you should still be able to find the articles online. Check the articles written by the professionals on 6mmBR.com or Lilja's barrel site and look through a borescope if you get a chance, it'll be an eye opener.

Notice these are talking about getting the copper out and breaking in the barrel to keep copper fouling out.
from Kriegers website-


BREAK-IN & CLEANING:



With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.

Bartlein-


Break in and Cleaning

The age old question, "Breaking in the New Barrel". Opinions very a lot here, and this is a very subjective topic. For the most part, the only thing you are breaking in, is the throat area of the barrel. The nicer the finish that the Finish Reamer or Throating Reamer leaves, the faster the throat will break in.

Shoot one round and clean for the first two rounds individually. Look to see what the barrel is telling you. If I'm getting little to no copper out of it, I sit down and shoot the gun. Say 4 - 5 round groups and then clean. If the barrel cleans easily and shoots well, we consider it done.

If the barrel shows some copper or is taking a little longer to clean after the first two, shoot a group of 3 rounds and clean. Then a group of 5 and clean.

After you shoot the 3rd group and 5th group, watch how long it takes to clean. Also notice your group sizes. If the group sizes are good and the cleaning is getting easier or is staying the same, then shoot 4 - 5 round groups.

If fouling appears to be heavy and taking a while to clean, notice your group sizes. If group sizes are good and not going sour, you don't have a fouling problem. Some barrels will clean easier than others. Some barrels may take a little longer to break in. Remember the throat. Fouling can start all the way from here. We have noticed sometimes that even up to approximately 100 rounds, a barrel can show signs of a lot of copper, but it still shoots really well and then for no apparent reason, you will notice little to no copper and it will clean really easy.

This is meant as guide lines only. There is no hard and fast rule for breaking in a barrel.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Bustin, you have said you're a great barrel maker of forty years. You have said your customers know what to do. You have also twice proved that you are not taking the time to read and address what I have posted.
Make your case, or quit responding.
How is carbon soot a protectant in a barrel while copper is a damaging factor?
That is all I have been asking given what I know about soot and its abrasive qualities.

 

[bustin]

Bustin, you have said you're a great barrel maker of forty years. You have said your customers know what to do. You have also twice proved that you are not taking the time to read and address what I have posted.
Make your case, or quit responding.
How is carbon soot a protectant in a barrel while copper is a damaging factor?
That is all I have been asking given what I know about soot and its abrasive qualities.

This is the first statement I made-
"That is BAD advice. You want the carbon layer in the bore not copper. Copper will continue to build on itself and rip more copper from the bullets. Carbon will form a protective layer so the dry copper bullet does not stick to the bare metal of the bore."

Shooting a dry copper bullet down a dry barrel with a 600 grit finish is like rubbing a bullet down a piece of sand paper. A new match grade lapped barrel looks just like a stainless ash tray you see in a hotel. There are finish marks from where the barrel was lapped. Some match grade barrels don't copper foul much at all. If I start shooting with a new barrel and the borescope shows no copper I keep shooting. If it does show copper I clean it out. If copper sticks to the bore and you continue to shoot over it the copper from the copper from the bullet will stick to the copper on the bore and buildup much faster than carbon will. Accuracy will degrade faster. What we try to achieve is a burnished bore coated in carbon because the carbon fills all of the little imperfections. You know how sand paper gets clogged and stops sanding? After I achieve a good layer of carbon with no copper showing I shoot until the accuracy degrades. Some rifles shoot 2-300 rounds some may go 800, that all depends on how dirty the powder is or how it burns. Lower pressure loads or powders that have a slow burn rate for the cartridge leave more carbon in the bore and accuracy can degrade faster. A hotter burn is a cleaner burn.
Over cleaning the barrel to the bare metal every time you take a rifle to the range means having to build up that layer in the barrel again next time. Many go out and shoot and get it all dialed in only to remove carbon from the bore then the next cold clean bore shot is off in the woods somewhere. You don't want a chemically cleaned dry bore because the copper will stick to the dry metal.
May be that is a little clearer?

 

[TheGerman]

Apparently SWThomas REALLY likes this thread.

 

[elfster1234]

LOL! I was about to say the very same thing! hahaha

Apparently SWThomas REALLY likes this thread.

 

[bluto77]

LOL! I was about to say the very same thing! hahaha

I was thinking the same thing.

So in summary, for those of us here to learn, don't clean the copper or carbon out of your barrel until the bullets are barely making it out the muzzle, but go ahead and clean your action and/or BCG. Does that sound right? Sure will make life easier for me. That'll cut out a considerable amount of chit I'm doing to my rifles. I can apply the extra time to reloading. So I'm improving accuracy twice as fast by leaving the copper/carbon accuracy inducing solution in the barrel and loading my own ammo. Kick ass!

 

[R6Hybridd]

I have a GAP-10 that has 200 rounds through it and I have only cleaned the bore with Boretech C4 carbon cleaner. I have never cleaned the copper out and I don't intend to until my groups start to open up. I have heard the arguements for both sides and I chose to leave the copper in.

 

[bustin]

I have a GAP-10 that has 200 rounds through it and I have only cleaned the bore with Boretech C4 carbon cleaner. I have never cleaned the copper out and I don't intend to until my groups start to open up. I have heard the arguements for both sides and I chose to leave the copper in.

How do you know there is copper in the bore?

 

[R6Hybridd]

How do you know there is copper in the bore?

Have you ever went to clean a fired gun with copper cleaner and had it come out completely clean?

 

[bustin]

Have you ever went to clean a fired gun with copper cleaner and had it come out completely clean?

I don't try to clean out copper that isn't there. I check the bore with a borescope, if it shows copper fouling I clean it.
You said it's a GAP, it may not be copper fouling. If it isn't copper fouling you are doing the same thing I'm doing... shooting it until the carbon builds up to a point accuracy degrades and it must be cleaned.
If a barrel is copper fouling the copper will build up much faster and will need to be cleaned sooner. If the copper builds up to a point accuracy degrades
and someone only cleans out the carbon it wont shoot any better after the cleaning.

 

[R6Hybridd]

I don't try to clean out copper that isn't there. I check the bore with a borescope, if it shows copper fouling I clean it.
You said it's a GAP, it may not be copper fouling. If it isn't copper fouling you are doing the same thing I'm doing... shooting it until the carbon builds up to a point accuracy degrades and it must be cleaned.
If a barrel is copper fouling the copper will build up much faster and will need to be cleaned sooner.

Sorry, let me be more specific. I clean the gun after every trip to the range, I just clean it with a carbon cleaner not a copper cleaner.

 

[Muskox]

Yesterday at the range was a man with three high-end Blaser rifles... and a Lead Sled. He would fire five rounds, then clean. He thoroughly cleaned each bore with a copper brush: He sawed on that steel cleaning rod until I could hear it, from three benches away, making a squeaking sound as he repeatedly shoved the brush out the muzzle then back again no less than thirty times in each barrel. He didn't have or use a bore guide. Once, when I got close to him, I could hear the rod hitting the side of something inside the rifle and making an audible 'click' sound every time he shoved the brush into the chamber. I didn't say a word. Good thing that I didn't try, though, because as I watched I could barely speak.

OUCH! Talk about going full retard. Blaser barrels start at $1000 and go to $2500.

I have not seen a bore guide for a Blaser rifle. So I can't knock him on that. I have never broke on in, and I hardly ever clean my K95. When I was a proud (dumb) R93 owner with about $15,000 in R93 stuff (in 2005) I treated them the same.

 

[ARKEMAXUS]

The buck stops with Todd Hodnett. I'd listen to him before I'd listen to ANYBODY else.

 

[Graham]

The buck stops with Todd Hodnett. I'd listen to him before I'd listen to ANYBODY else.

Why is that?

 

[ARKEMAXUS]

Todd Hodnett has put more rounds through more rifles than you or I ever will, has trained more military snipers and civilians than anyone else on the planet and knows more about long range shooting than anyone you've ever heard of.

 

[Lowlight]

That is comical at best... he is a total Johnny come Lately and was doing no rifle training when I first met him at Rifles Only. Prior to 2005 what was he doing again, cause this was Todd when I first met him.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/53703773" width="500" height="375" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/53703773">Pay Dirt: the Lost Treasure of Palmer Lake</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user13507665">Berndt Mader</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

He's a salesman, he was a cowboy action shooter, and not the end all by any means. His "International Sniper Competition win" was Tac Pro in TX. Hardly international.

When you consider his only formal training was a week at Rifles Only under Jacob Bynum you have to wonder if his instructor qualifies as "anyone"

Didn't realize selling Horus scopes to people and showing them how to hold over with it such a prized skillset to warrant the "best moniker" .. sure he shoots goods, always has, but he was hardly a seasoned veteran. I know at least a dozen guys that have more experience than he does. They just go around rubbing people's noses in it.

Maybe we should ask David Tubb what he thinks of that label, might be funny, though probably not print worthy without a NSFW title.

 

[ARKEMAXUS]

I aim to be comical Lowlight, how about you accuse me of exaggerating and I'll accuse you of downplaying his expertise. Maybe we'll run into each other at Mile High, we can argue about who's the best ( I don't think either of us really care) and Randy can break it up.

 

[elfster1234]

Lowlight.... Not sure if you have already posted this somewhere or not but what do you do in terms of the OP question? If anyone would know it would be you.

That is comical at best... he is a total Johnny come Lately and was doing no rifle training when I first met him at Rifles Only. Prior to 2005 what was he doing again, cause this was Todd when I first met him.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/53703773" width="500" height="375" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/53703773">Pay Dirt: the Lost Treasure of Palmer Lake</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user13507665">Berndt Mader</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

He's a salesman, he was a cowboy action shooter, and not the end all by any means. His "International Sniper Competition win" was Tac Pro in TX. Hardly international.

When you consider his only formal training was a week at Rifles Only under Jacob Bynum you have to wonder if his instructor qualifies as "anyone"

Didn't realize selling Horus scopes to people and showing them how to hold over with it such a prized skillset to warrant the "best moniker" .. sure he shoots goods, always has, but he was hardly a seasoned veteran. I know at least a dozen guys that have more experience than he does. They just go around rubbing people's noses in it.

Maybe we should ask David Tubb what he thinks of that label, might be funny, though probably not print worthy without a NSFW title.

 

[Lowlight]

It really depends on the rifle.

There is "Good Copper" and there is Bad. The barrel will generally dictate the level of cleaning the rifle needs.

TH is the prime example of 80-40-20, as he never expands, nor does his "why" make complete sense. A good instructor can impart 80% of his lesson successfully to the student, who will absorb 40% of that lesson during his class, afterwards he'll be able to recite 20% back accurately. He (TH) does well with that 20%. Others who know him like I do say, TH never heard someone else's god idea he didn't like for himself. He does well reciting other people's learning experiences.

With a 308 you can get away with a lot. Especially with a custom barrel. With other calibers it varies, some rifles you can just bore snake, other rifles might need some copper removal. Blanket statements can be very misleading.

With my 308s and I shoot a lot of it, I generally don't clean the copper out. But I am using the best barrels available. When I do clean I use Shooter's Choice and really no more than 2 wet patches. After a few (less than 6) strokes with a nylon brush, then a wet patch and dry. Total patches maybe 8 in one sitting, end of cleaning. One 338 I have that cleaning doesn't work. Especially because I might go 1500 rounds between cleanings with a 308. Same with my 6.5CM. The rifle dictates the action required. 1500 rounds between cleanings won't cut it. Maybe every 400 rounds I clean like above.

If you're sold by his video exploits just watch the segment on humidity, the talking in circles then taking the decimal place to point the scope won't go. If you have to stop and qualify your explanation by saying, "well at 2000 meters it matters" odds are you're screwing it up. Over explaining it incorrectly.

Every rifle has a personality, as does each caliber. Some you can abuse others you can't. I tend to avoid generalizations when the complete explanation is much more helpful to the people seeking out information. It avoids the game of telephone and the mis-telling of the tale down the road. I am also happy to let people feel good about their decision to clean or not. I would rather they lightly cleaned the rifle correctly than over cleaned harshly. We surely don't need super harsh chemicals inside our bores. A 10 minute cleaning is better than a 30+ minute one for sure.

As far as debating it at Mile High, while I am there often, if you came in looking for me to debate his merits I think I have better things to do. I would rather wait in line at Starbucks and count skirts. In silence.

 

[destroyer_85_golf]

not to hijack this thread, how do you guys think that CFE powder from hogdon would pertain to this debate?

 

[elfster1234]

thanks for the fantastic info

It really depends on the rifle.

There is "Good Copper" and there is Bad. The barrel will generally dictate the level of cleaning the rifle needs.

TH is the prime example of 80-40-20, as he never expands, nor does his "why" make complete sense. A good instructor can impart 80% of his lesson successfully to the student, who will absorb 40% of that lesson during his class, afterwards he'll be able to recite 20% back accurately. He (TH) does well with that 20%. Others who know him like I do say, TH never heard someone else's god idea he didn't like for himself. He does well reciting other people's learning experiences.

With a 308 you can get away with a lot. Especially with a custom barrel. With other calibers it varies, some rifles you can just bore snake, other rifles might need some copper removal. Blanket statements can be very misleading.

With my 308s and I shoot a lot of it, I generally don't clean the copper out. But I am using the best barrels available. When I do clean I use Shooter's Choice and really no more than 2 wet patches. After a few (less than 6) strokes with a nylon brush, then a wet patch and dry. Total patches maybe 8 in one sitting, end of cleaning. One 338 I have that cleaning doesn't work. Especially because I might go 1500 rounds between cleanings with a 308. Same with my 6.5CM. The rifle dictates the action required. 1500 rounds between cleanings won't cut it. Maybe every 400 rounds I clean like above.

If you're sold by his video exploits just watch the segment on humidity, the talking in circles then taking the decimal place to point the scope won't go. If you have to stop and qualify your explanation by saying, "well at 2000 meters it matters" odds are you're screwing it up. Over explaining it incorrectly.

Every rifle has a personality, as does each caliber. Some you can abuse others you can't. I tend to avoid generalizations when the complete explanation is much more helpful to the people seeking out information. It avoids the game of telephone and the mis-telling of the tale down the road. I am also happy to let people feel good about their decision to clean or not. I would rather they lightly cleaned the rifle correctly than over cleaned harshly. We surely don't need super harsh chemicals inside our bores. A 10 minute cleaning is better than a 30+ minute one for sure.

As far as debating it at Mile High, while I am there often, if you came in looking for me to debate his merits I think I have better things to do. I would rather wait in line at Starbucks and count skirts. In silence.

 

[Shooter0311]

Why the dislike for Hodnett? Aren't most if not all those that gain from the sale of a product whether training, weapons, ammo, etc. "salesman"?

Just curious.

 

[Muskox]

I know 2 things about Hodnett:

1. He's is a better mathamatician than I am.

2. His instruction via video is a bit hard to understand, he leaves a lot of information out, and as I have no formal sniper training, the videos leave a lot to be desired. His format for instruction via the DVD is hard for my feeble mind to grasp.

David Tubbs videos aren't much better, as I have most of them as well. Neither are John Plasters videos. I have not ordered Frank's DVD yet.

My take on him is that he knows more than me, and there is something to be learned from anyone that knows more than you do. He's a hell of a salesman, and I have bought his snake oil myself. Even cures warts as described.

 

[Graham]

Why the dislike for Hodnett? Aren't most if not all those that gain from the sale of a product whether training, weapons, ammo, etc. "salesman"?
Just curious.

I have no dislike for the man. I was simply correcting inaccurate information about his background, qualifications and level of experience. I do admire his entrepreneurial drive. The moniker 'salesman' describes his approach to teaching and to marketing himself, not the fact that when he does so he is also being employed for the purpose of selling a product.

 

[Shooter0311]

I was mainly directing my question to Lowlight to see if he had personal insight on something that reflected negatively on Hodntett's character. Experience is an interesting thing and sometimes just because folks have been doing something longer doesn't always mean they are better. I have seen first hand where people get complacent and passed by, whether skillsets, technology or tactics. I am not specifically talking about Hodnett but I am aware that Hodnett and Tubbs work close with some very good shooters who have the intelligence and the funds to train with anyone, anywhere. Shooters that work two way ranges mostly.

I wouldn't label either of their training as "Sniper" training but that's just my opinion. I think a more accurate term is Long range precision in both flat range environemnts as well as realistic.
There are "trainers" today making big money on tactics/combat that have never been in a gunfight. These 2 guys mostly work on employment of said system/tool and not tactics/combat/execution IMO.

I personally take more issue with those that talk about cutting the pie or the fatal funnel (As well as other tactics.) who have never even been in that situation.

 

[bluto77]

I stopped cleaning the carbon out of my barrels after reading this thread, and my groups have been getting consistently smaller. Of course, I've tried different types of ammo as well, but I'm pretty sure there is a correlation because I don't start my day at the range with big ass groups, screwing with my scope, wondering why I'm shooting so much worse than I did last time out, just for it to settle down after 10 -15 rounds down the tube. Now it starts right where I left off. Is that logic somewhat flawed....maybe....but it seems to be working.

 

[Graham]

I stopped cleaning the carbon out of my barrels after reading this thread, and my groups have been getting consistently smaller. Of course, I've tried different types of ammo as well, but I'm pretty sure there is a correlation because I don't start my day at the range with big ass groups, screwing with my scope, wondering why I'm shooting so much worse than I did last time out, just for it to settle down after 10 -15 rounds down the tube. Now it starts right where I left off. Is that logic somewhat flawed....maybe....but it seems to be working.

If you are talking purely about getting the best accuracy I wouldn't mix jacket types in the bore without a cleaning, nor would I shoot different powders without a cleaning. That said, my accuracy demands are not so rigid that I need worry about those things.

I personally take more issue with those that talk about cutting the pie or the fatal funnel (As well as other tactics.) who have never even been in that situation.

In what situation? Having never 'cut the pie' or crossed a 'fatal funnel'? I can show you how to do it in ten minutes; and then you've done it. The fact that there was never a real person in the room while you did it makes no difference.

 

[bluto77]

I meant to say "copper". I haven't cleaned the copper out. But i have cleaned the carbon out of one after 200 rounds. I only used Hoppe's 9,one damp patch and 5 or 6 dry patches. Normally i would've used CLP bore foam too, which has copper cleaner, and had purple colored patches coming out of the barrel. I skipped that, and no purple patches with the hoppe's 9.

 

[bustin]

I meant to say "copper". I haven't cleaned the copper out. But i have cleaned the carbon out of one after 200 rounds. I only used Hoppe's 9,one damp patch and 5 or 6 dry patches. Normally i would've used CLP bore foam too, which has copper cleaner, and had purple colored patches coming out of the barrel. I skipped that, and no purple patches with the hoppe's 9.

Well run a test. Without cleaning, keep shooting until your accuracy goes to shit and keep a record of how many shots you fired to get there.
Next time you will have an idea when to clean.