Who has the right to ask to see a tax stamp?

[RMB]

So, I was at a different gun club last weekend with a friend that was a member. We were working up a load for his 308. I am shooting my 308 with a suppressor. One of the other members walks up and says, "You got a stamp for that?". I was polite and told him "Yes, I do." He asked me to see it. I asked him if was a police officer, or with the ATF and/or the DNR. He said "No."

I did not want to make a fuss...so I just packed up my gear and loaded it in the truck. i waited for my friend to finish and then we left.

I had a jpeg of stamp on my phone but was so pissed off.

I wanted to tell this guy in the worst way to.......take a long walk off a short pier.

Anyway, back to my question, who has the right to ask for you tax stamp and/or documentation.

 

[ForgeValley]

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure its not some rando at a gun range, and I would have told that guy to go piss up a rope.

 

[7.62willdo]

So, I was at a different gun club last weekend with a friend that was a member. We were working up a load for his 308. I am shooting my 308 with a suppressor. One of the other members walks up and says, "You got a stamp for that?". I was polite and told him "Yes, I do." He asked me to see it. I asked him if was a police officer, or with the ATF and/or the DNR. He said "No."

I did not want to make a fuss...so I just packed up my gear and loaded it in the truck. i waited for my friend to finish and then we left.

I had a jpeg of stamp on my phone but was so pissed off.

I wanted to tell this guy in the worst way to.......take a long walk off a short pier.

Anyway, back to my question, who has the right to ask for you tax stamp and/or documentation.

Congratulations you let him win……

 

[Rocketvapor]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

In a members only "CLUB" each member may be responsible for the conduct of members and guest.
If the bylaws require "Members" in the absence of a club officer, to "Police" (challenge) shooters to make sure they are members or an authorized guest of a member and that they are not in violation of club rules or laws, then any member or club officer, may ask to see your membership card, and maybe even your Stamp.
Remember you were a GUEST.

 

[oneshot86]

Congratulations you let him win……

No shit.

 

[oneshot86]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

In a members only "CLUB" each member may be responsible for the conduct of members and guest.
If the bylaws require "Members" in the absence of a club officer, to "Police" shooters to make sure they are members or an authorized guest of a member and that they are not in violation of club rules or laws, then any member, club officer, may ask to see your membership card, and maybe even your Stamp.
Remember you were a GUEST.

Bullshit.

 

[oneshot86]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

In a members only "CLUB" each member may be responsible for the conduct of members and guest.
If the bylaws require "Members" in the absence of a club officer, to "Police" shooters to make sure they are members or an authorized guest of a member and that they are not in violation of club rules or laws, then any member, club officer, may ask to see your membership card, and maybe even your Stamp.
Remember you were a GUEST.

What if he told him to get on his knees and suck his dick

 

[7.62willdo]

What if he told him to get on his knees and suck his dick

Well…….remember he was a guest……..

 

[RMB]

I was trying to help a friend at his gun club. I figured that I was better off to STFU and keep it civil. That and the fact that I did not know/was not sure. I have been shooting 100% suppressed for over 5 years and NOT ONCE has any one asked to see the stamp. I have been asked by wardens and police if they could see the suppressor(s). By that, the actual suppressor and not the stamp.

My daughter-in-law is a cop. Her fellow officers shoot on the farm quite a bit. One asked me if he could "borrow it". I told him it was illegal. His response was "really?"

 

[rlsmith1]

I was trying to help a friend at his gun club. I figured that I was better off to STFU and keep it civil. That and the fact that I did not know/was not sure. I have been shooting 100% suppressed for over 5 years and NOT ONCE has any one asked to see the stamp. I have been asked by wardens and police if they could see the suppressor(s). By that, the actual suppressor and not the stamp.

My daughter-in-law is a cop. Her fellow officers shoot on the farm quite a bit. One asked me if he could "borrow it". I told him it was illegal. His response was "really?"

Life comes at ya fast when you're using the king's tools

 

[hafejd30]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

In a members only "CLUB" each member may be responsible for the conduct of members and guest.
If the bylaws require "Members" in the absence of a club officer, to "Police" (challenge) shooters to make sure they are members or an authorized guest of a member and that they are not in violation of club rules or laws, then any member or club officer, may ask to see your membership card, and maybe even your Stamp.
Remember you were a GUEST.

Being a club member doesn’t give you magical ATF agent powers……

If LE asked to see it I’d show them. To avoid any further BS that comes my way from them attempting to figure it out on their own.

It’s a private range likely so if the owner asked to see it, you don’t show it, you can be asked to leave. Not because you didn’t show them but because they have the right to ask anyone to leave for any reason as it’s private

 

[hlee]

Propper response is "Fuck the fuck off, you fucking fucker."

Section 46.05 deals with prohibited items, and at one time had a line item for suppressors. That seems to now be gone. Note that the referenced page is the official statues from the state .gov site. So, I would surmise that, at least in Texas, not even State level law enforcement needs to be shown a tax stamp...

PENAL CODE CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) any of the following items, unless the item is registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or otherwise not subject to that registration requirement or unless the item is classified as a curio or relic by the United States Department of Justice:
(A) an explosive weapon;
(B) a machine gun; or
(C) a short-barrel firearm;
(2) armor-piercing ammunition;
(3) a chemical dispensing device;
(4) a zip gun;
(5) a tire deflation device; or
(6) an improvised explosive device.
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct was incidental to the performance of official duty by the armed forces or national guard, a governmental law enforcement agency, or a correctional facility.
(c) Repealed by Acts 2015, 84th Leg., R.S., Ch. 69 , Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2015.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's conduct:
(1) was incidental to dealing with a short-barrel firearm or tire deflation device solely as an antique or curio;
(2) was incidental to dealing with armor-piercing ammunition solely for the purpose of making the ammunition available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in Subsection (b); or
(3) was incidental to dealing with a tire deflation device solely for the purpose of making the device available to an organization, agency, or institution listed in Subsection (b).
(e) Except as otherwise provided by this subsection, an offense under this section is a felony of the third degree. An offense under Subsection (a)(5) is a state jail felony.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section for the possession of a chemical dispensing device that the actor is a security officer and has received training on the use of the chemical dispensing device by a training program that is:
(1) provided by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement; or
(2) approved for the purposes described by this subsection by the Texas Private Security Board of the Department of Public Safety.
(g) In Subsection (f), "security officer" means a commissioned security officer as defined by Section 1702.002, Occupations Code, or a noncommissioned security officer registered under Section 1702.221, Occupations Code.

Edit; House Bill 957 removed silencers from the prohibited items list in 2021, effective Sept 2021.

 

[RMB]

Again, who has the right to ask to see the stamp and/or paperwork?

 

[madppcs]

In what context was he asking? Was he just curious to see what they look like? Maybe he was interested in getting his first suppressor? Or was he trying to act like some enforcement entity?

 

[hafejd30]

Next time tell him you’ll mushroom “stamp” his forehead

 

[MtnCreek]

Again, who has the right to ask to see the stamp and/or paperwork?

LE with a warrant.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I don't know how a club that owns the property and has paying members (and Guest) can force you to show your tax stamp, but I'm sure they can ask you to leave.
Is it a private property thing? Anyone can ask. You don't have to comply. You can leave freely (if you don't start a fight) if you want.
Since you didn't show your stamp, was this guy gonna ask you to leave?
Asking a royal member to get on his knees would probably get you kicked out anyway.

 

[7.62willdo]

Sworn law enforcement officers………

 

[akmike47]

So, I was at a different gun club last weekend with a friend that was a member. We were working up a load for his 308. I am shooting my 308 with a suppressor. One of the other members walks up and says, "You got a stamp for that?". I was polite and told him "Yes, I do." He asked me to see it. I asked him if was a police officer, or with the ATF and/or the DNR. He said "No."

I did not want to make a fuss...so I just packed up my gear and loaded it in the truck. i waited for my friend to finish and then we left.

I had a jpeg of stamp on my phone but was so pissed off.

I wanted to tell this guy in the worst way to.......take a long walk off a short pier.

Anyway, back to my question, who has the right to ask for you tax stamp and/or documentation.

I like to say “let me see your W2 or 1099”. Would make for an easier day potentially to show an officer, everyone else can fuck off. Any decent place doesn’t hassle people on average.

Edit- I have seen places ask just to gauge your response, they don’t actually want to see it but if you get all nervous and weird about it they know to keep an eye on you.

 

[RMB]

HLEE,ThANKS!

If I read this right....."Commissioned security officer" means a security officer to whom a security officer commission has been issued by the department."

You have to be some sort of Officer.....State Patrol, Police, Game Warden or NFA...Correct?

 

[GenericBadGuy]

Law enforcement, BAFTE, the IRS. Remember kids, it is technically a tax stamp.

 

[RMB]

In what context was he asking?

Long story short. In my opinion the guy was just being a prick. And, rather than make a big deal about it (as a guest) I walked away. Now if this had been at my club I would have followed ONESHOT86 advice.

 

[hafejd30]

I don't know how a club that owns the property and has paying members (and Guest) can force you to show your tax stamp, but I'm sure they can ask you to leave.
Is it a private property thing? Anyone can ask. You don't have to comply. You can leave freely (if you don't start a fight) if you want.
Asking a royal member to get on his knees would probably get you kicked out anyway

It can be technically enforced by the ranges policy. If it’s a private range and you become a member your subject to following their range rules. If they say their RO or members must obtain proof of a tax stamp in order to shoot that item there then that’s on the range.

You don’t have to show it. But likely will be asked to leave if you don’t. You have the right to leave and they have to right to ask you to leave. Because they own the range. If you don’t leave now you become subjected to trespassing charges should LE get involved

 

[akmike47]

Law enforcement, BAFTE, the IRS. Remember kids, it is technically a tax stamp.

It’s literally a tax stamp.

 

[CaptArab]

 

[Rocketvapor]

I was a member of a CLUB (since expired) that expected members to unlock/lock the gate and not let anyone in that didn't have their card and/or keys. Showed up one weekday and a car was waiting at the gate. Guys didn't have cards or keys and wanted me to let them in.
Just didn't feel like shooting with them (no one else there) so I left.

 

[7.62willdo]

LE with a warrant.

Do you ask the police for a warrant every time they ask for your drive license…….

 

[roostercogburn98]

Tell ‘em no, see if they call real cops to come enforce it or are just being hardons

 

[hlee]

Do you ask the police for a warrant every time they ask for your drive license…….

False equivalence fallacy.

 

[akmike47]

Do you ask the Road Pirates for a warrant every time they ask for your drive license…….

 

[7.62willdo]

False equivalence fallacy.

How so? both pieces of equipment require a license to operate….

 

[akmike47]

How so? both pieces of equipment require a license to operate….

I don’t think a stamp is a license. The whole point is it allows you to not be a licensed manufacturer and have the item.

It’s also free money and a chance to hassle you.

 

[hlee]

HLEE,ThANKS!

If I read this right....."Commissioned security officer" means a security officer to whom a security officer commission has been issued by the department."

You have to be some sort of Officer.....State Patrol, Police, Game Warden or NFA...Correct?

Commissioned security officer is private security.

OCCUPATIONS CODE CHAPTER 1702. PRIVATE SECURITY

OCCUPATIONS CODE
TITLE 10. OCCUPATIONS RELATED TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AND SECURITY
CHAPTER 1702. PRIVATE SECURITY
SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

...
Sec. 1702.002. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
...
(4) "Commission" means the Public Safety Commission.
(5) "Commissioned security officer" means a security officer to whom a security officer commission has been issued by the department.
(5-a) "Committee" means the Texas Private Security Advisory Committee established under this chapter.
(5-b) "Company license" means a license issued by the department that entitles a person to operate as a security services contractor or investigations company.
(5-c) "Department" means the Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas.

 

[7.62willdo]

I don’t think a stamp is a license. The whole point is it allows you to not be a licensed manufacturer and have the item.

It’s also free money and a chance to hassle you.

Well the next time a cop asks to see your stamp use that logic on him……

 

[hlee]

How so? both pieces of equipment require a license to operate….

apples and pears are both fruits. In fact, they are both "pome fruits", having a seed containing "core" surrounded by edible flesh. Therefore, apples and fruits are the same.

 

[akmike47]

Well the next time a cop asks to see your stamp use that logic on him……

It still isn’t a license, it’s a stamp it shows a tax has been paid. It’s sort of like a vehicle title in a really round about out way.

You bought your vehicle, go to the tax office pay the tax, and you get the paper showing legal ownership....it’s not a license it’s a title.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Again, who has the right to ask to see the stamp and/or paperwork?

Who can ask to see my tax stamp?

I tell all of my clients to keep a copy of both their approved tax stamps and their NFA trust on them at all times they are in possession of their NFA items. But if

johnpierceesq.com

 

[CoryT]

Without a warrant, no one has the 'right' to ask for or see your registration documents. In some states, registration is an 'affirmative defense' for otherwise unlawful possession, and if charged with an offense you would need to provide the court with the form as proof of that defense.

It's a privileged tax document. In fact, there are quite a number of registered MG's in CA, which has a strict prohibition on ownership. ATF cannot tell CA to whom and where these are registered without a warrant, which would require probable cause.

Now, can a club official ask you to leave if you do not provide them with proof the device is legal? That depends on private property rules and club rules in your state, but in most cases you could be asked to leave or be faced with a charge of trespass.

 

[Rocketvapor]

The pertinent part of that link is (for Va):
There are certainly numerous anecdotes on the internet about RSOs asking to see the tax stamp for an NFA item that is being fired at a commercial range.
In this case however, the answer is ‘No’. They do not have a legal right to see your tax stamp. But … as a private property actor, what they do have is the right to ask you to leave if they ask and you refuse.

In this case, the OP decided to leave.
Why all the hate?

I've seen GUESTS that some members (probably regretted later) brought along with AKs, SBRs or AR Pistols that hit the berm every time.
Did I ask them to leave? Nope, not my job.

 

[chevy_man]

Well the next time a cop asks to see your stamp use that logic on him……

I've never once had one ask.

I don't know anyone who actually carries their stamp. Mine is in the fire safe with the rest of the tax documents and birth certificates.

 

[akmike47]

I've never once had one ask.

I don't know anyone who actually carries their stamp. Mine is in the fire safe with the rest of the tax documents and birth certificates.

You don’t carry the stamp, you have a copy paper or digital.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Again, who has the right to ask to see the stamp and/or paperwork?

The guy handing over the suppressor you bought from him.
He's got paperwork to fill out.
After that, he can't ask just for the sake of asking.

 

[hollowoutadime]

It's on the Form 4 you signed

Proof of Registration: A person possessing a firearm registered as required by the NFA shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request.

 

[akmike47]

The pertinent part of that link is (for Va):
There are certainly numerous anecdotes on the internet about RSOs asking to see the tax stamp for an NFA item that is being fired at a commercial range.
In this case however, the answer is ‘No’. They do not have a legal right to see your tax stamp. But … as a private property actor, what they do have is the right to ask you to leave if they ask and you refuse.

In this case, the OP decided to leave.
Why all the hate?

Let’s keep repeating the same thing instead of reading the thread lol

 

[jrhtx]

This is right out of the Bayou Rifles Club Rules - 2022. This includes guest.

3.9. The use of legally owned sound suppressors or short barreled rifles is allowed. Appropriate federal paperwork must be available for inspection by any club member upon request. The device must be in compliance with all local, state, and federal rules and laws related to possession and use of such device. Any other firearm or device that requires federal approval with a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives tax stamp to own or use is prohibited.

 

[TexPatriot]

I was trying to help a friend at his gun club. I figured that I was better off to STFU and keep it civil. That and the fact that I did not know/was not sure. I have been shooting 100% suppressed for over 5 years and NOT ONCE has any one asked to see the stamp. I have been asked by wardens and police if they could see the suppressor(s). By that, the actual suppressor and not the stamp.

My daughter-in-law is a cop. Her fellow officers shoot on the farm quite a bit. One asked me if he could "borrow it". I told him it was illegal. His response was "really?"

Don't kid yourself. They may have just asked to look at it but it got permanently logged in their memory, just like names of the popular football jocks that made fun of them in high school.

 

[RMB]

So basically, I could have shown the stamp and kept on shooting. Or because it is a private club they could have asked me to leave (even if I showed him the stamp) for any reason what-so-ever.

My choice in not showing the stamp and packing up my stuff was the correct course of action.

Thanks to all.....

 

[hafejd30]

This is right out of the Bayou Rifles Club Rules - 2022. This includes guest.

3.9. The use of legally owned sound suppressors or short barreled rifles is allowed. Appropriate federal paperwork must be available for inspection by any club member upon request. The device must be in compliance with all local, state, and federal rules and laws related to possession and use of such device. Any other firearm or device that requires federal approval with a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives tax stamp to own or use is prohibited.

Yup in this case you must show them. As you agreed to do when becoming a member or attending with a member who agreed to this

You don’t show it. They ask you to leave. You don’t leave it’s trespassing

 

[hafejd30]

So basically, I could have shown the stamp and kept on shooting. Or because it is a private club they could have asked me to leave (even if I showed him the stamp) for any reason what-so-ever.

My choice in not showing the stamp and packing up my stuff was the correct course of action.

Thanks to all.....

Probably the best you could have done. In this case any confrontation would likely have negative consequences on your friend who’s a member

 

[Rocketvapor]

Actually, not being so sensitive and showing the stamp would have reflected positively on your friend, the paying member.
Now the club probably thinks he brought a guest that didn't have a stamp.


Maybe that club has different rules.