Rifle Scopes Who Makes the best Glass???

#101
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if that was directed at me VKC, tis true </div></div>

No, not directed at you, just answer to overall thread...as to who makes the best glass. Who makes the best glass?...it's a loaded question, and subjective and a matter of preference.
 
#102
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

You guys are killing me............

If any ONE of you were to go to a optical glass manufacturer and asked that question the only reply they would have is "How much do you want to spend?". I dare say on raw glass you would be very disappointed even for the $5K and up per lens stuff. Good glass is only part of the package as it is in a total scope package. The finish (polish) and the coatings are where good glass is differentiated from great glass.

While were on the topic of coatings, did you know that most scope manufacturers with "fantastically clear glass" "tint" their glass to give better resolution on Black and Yellow objects? The down side is that it washes out the greens and dulls the browns. Think about that for a minute while you consider the term "sniper".

FWIW the human eye can't differentiate the difference from really, really, really high end optical glass and middle of the road production glass.

Just say'n

Cheers,

Doc
 
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#105
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The finish (polish) and the coatings are where good glass is differentiated from great glass.

While were on the topic of coatings, did you know that most scope manufacturers with "fantastically clear glass" "tint" their glass to give better resolution on Black and Yellow objects? The down side is that it washes out the greens and dulls the browns. Think about that for a minute while you consider the term "sniper".

FWIW the human eye can't differentiate the difference from really, really, really high end optical glass and middle of the road production glass.

Just say'n

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

I seriously doubt the majority here will be counter sniping. However, hunting or comps is another story.

So you're saying that All the the high end optics company's need to do is run middle of the road glass?

To bad we couldn't get S&B, Hensoldt, Nightforce, USO, Premier etc. to come out on each of their production glass supplier and the steps they use, coatings they use to make the lenses ready for the scopes.

Would be interesting. You can't argue that there is a disconnect between each of the above manufactures steps as there are noticeable differences between them all... save.. the German makers as the line gets thinner between the noticeable differences on the higher end varieties.

jus' saying' IMHO
 
#106
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #3333FF">This is probably gonna be a Ford Vs. Chevy type of opinion poll, but the answers should be interesting.

These are my thoughts

1. Ziess
2. S&B
3. Premier Heritage
4. USO
5. Vortex Razor
6. IOR Valdada
7. NightForce
8. Leupold Mk4
9. Bushnell
10.Vortex Viper</span></div></div>

Wow Leupold mk4 just above Bushnell, I hope you mean the mk4 is just better than Bushnell's elite 4200. Only Bushnell elite 4200 and 3200 specifically should be considered in that list as I suspect the above list is all about quality long range/tactical scopes judging by the other brands mentioned.

Any of that list would be a great choice and many folks, (myself included) can only afford #7-10(don't forget USO st10 with price similar to mk4).

As for Chevy vs Ford, any of the old trucks with straight axles hands down preferable to current truck selection. I love both Ford and Chevy if its old! I love old Power Wagons and Ram Chargers too. Anything American made, straight axle/leaf sprung, its all good!
 
#107
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

Best would be dependent on a specific application. There is a huge cost difference in optical glass. ED prime,fluorite coated or regular glass with multi coatings is one part of the equation.

I have owned and used several brands domestic and foreign. I like my IOR better than my lupy MK4 and my Hensoldt and Kahles are damn good also. At times I think it's splitting hairs and the only true "test" of high end optics is in the lab. My friend is a field engineer doing service on blood analyzing equipment. The optics in it are Zeiss and likely the best available to produce. If you clean it by contact it looses some of it's light transmission qualities and is measurable.

As long as my scope is clear,has repeatable adjustments and is durable I don't care what name it has. You really get nothing for "free" in optics but you can overspend and never see the difference. It would be like having an analytical lab balance to measure powder. It's nice but overkill IMHO.
 
#108
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

Chris Farris says this about the hierarchy of rifle scopes. He is at SWFA. He has been my internet expert on scopes since the www got going with internet forums about hunting optics... if you can remember the shooter's forum.
http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=16515

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2009 Riflescope Rating Scale

1) Leica ER, Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

2) Kahles C - CL & CSX, Premier Reticle, Schmidt & Bender

3) Kahles KX, U.S. Optics, Swarovski PH & American Lightweight

4) Bushnell Elite 6500, Leupold VX-7, Nightforce NXS, IOR Valdada, Vortex Razor

5) Bushnell Elite 4200, Leupold VX-3, Nikon Monarch & Monarch X, Zeiss Conquest

6) Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Meopta, Nikon Monarch Gold & Titanium, Sightron SIII & S2 Big Sky, Vortex Viper

7) Burris Black Diamond Signature Select XTR & Euro Diamond, Pentax Lightseeker, Trijicon Accupoint, Weaver Grand Slam

8) Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Millet Tactical/Buck Gold, Nikko Stirling, Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron SI & SII, Vortex Crossfire & Diamondback, Super Sniper Fixed

9) Burris Fullfield II & Timberline, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Leatherwood, Mueller, Nikon ProStaff, Simmons

10) Barska, Sightmark, Swift, Truglo

11) BSA, Tasco, Yukon

12) ATN, Leapers, NcStar</div></div>

My own hierarchy of my scopes is:
IOR
VX III
Mark IV
vari X III
Burris Signature
VX II
vari X II
VX I
Burris fullfield II
Simmons
Old Leupold 4X
Old Weaver K4
Barsaka
Bushnell 3200
NcStar
Super Sniper fixed

 
#110
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

When I saw the title of the thread I assumed just the glass: my answer would be Schott.

Getting into scopes, I'd tend to agree with the quoted rating scale. I disagree with SS below NC Star in the response.

When one talks about scopes, it's an entire system and robustness is a significant part of the equation. Depending on application, I'd be tempted to bump up the Bushnell 3200 (let's say fixed power) a bit. What they give away in optical purity, the give back in robustness (as in Barrett).

Personally, I have a USO SP-10, which I'd put way over a Leupold in clarity, robustness and value, and a Simmons as a cheapo backup: Philippines made, so it's a bit better than the China ones.
 
#111
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

Clark,

We do go way back if you were one of the original Shooters.com members.

SS below NCstar
Sad%20Pacer.gif


Chris
 
#112
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

That is just wrong. I have a SS 10x42, and have looked thorugh those POS Barska's, Bushnell's, Weaver's, and Simmons'.
The SWFA 10x42's glass, optic quality, and ease of use was at least five times better than the aforementioned, and I would say even 10x better. Since I have not had an HD SWFA, I cannot comment upon it.
USO, and S&B use different coatings but offer equally clear vision. I cannot comment on optical quality of NF, Zeiss, or the new Priemere's either but have heard many espouse the quality of their optics as well.
Anyone that would put Barska, Bushnell, Weaver, and Simmins in the same catagory as SWFA's SS line should be keel hauled. I forgot about IOR. IOR looks to be about equal or better than SWFA SS. The one time I got to look through one I did notice it to be a nice clear scope, one which I have looked at many times when considering lower budgeted optics.
 
#113
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

My SS 20X is so dim that it is almost not usable, but might be able to be used to shoot at a target at the range on a very bright day.

My 3200 type 4x12x40 scope cannot be used above ~ 6X.

I think those two scopes are probably defective, so my hierarchy of the scopes I own has some anomalies compared to someone with much broader experience, like Chris.
 
#116
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

Joe D'Alessandro has and article where he puts light into a scope and measures that amount of light that comes out the scope.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/126.htm

I think he used to be a manufacturing engineer at an optics factory. I have not spent as much time in a light lab, but I have designed opto diode pre amplifiers in a feedback loop and got 120 db dynamic range for military night vision display back light brightness. I am not able to convert from foot Lamperts to Lumens with conditioned responses, but I could measure my SS X20 performace if I was motivated.

But I am not motivated, and can just say that my SS X20 would not do as well as my VX III on 20X with three pairs of sunglasses in series on the eyepiece.
 
#117
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chalwie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And don't forget many well known US snipers made their shots with MK4.</div></div>M3A, actually.
wink.gif


The premium scope companies don't make their own glass, they use glass from the high quality manufacturers.

With premium quality optical glass for rifle scopes the issue is not so much the type of glass that is important but the properties of it when ground, shaped, polished and coated.

One of the most important properties for optical glass is spatial homogeneity of the refractive index of the material. Striae are spatially short-range variations in homogeneity. They are generated mainly from unfinished homogenization of the raw materials during melting. Short-range variations are variations over a distance of about 0,1 mm up to 2 mm while long range global homogeneity refers to variations in the the complete glass piece.

Machined optical glass is available in different grades, with homogeneities up to H5 quality. The achievable homogeneity depends mainly on the glass type and dimension, but most optical glass can be delivered from stock in homogeneities H2 or better. What is needed is high quality glass that can be produced in large quantity with sufficient dimensions and homogeneities of H2 and better.

In a rifle scope the glass has to be sufficient to do the job but it's not the most important thing. If anyone is interested in what is sufficient for optical glass, this makes good (but dry) reading:
http://www.us.schott.com/advanced_optics...une_2006_us.pdf
 
#119
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

Last year a friend bought a March for a new 1000 yd bench rifle, the builder recommended he try one for it reliability, shot to shot. He got the scope while the rifle was being built, so we decided to compare the glass. We had a Premier boosted Mark IV, NF benchrest and the March. I'm 47 no glasses and he's 49 with glasses. I looked through them and honestly couldn't tell the difference, he said he could but he's shot scopes more than I. And the wives couldn't really tell but thought the March may have been a tad brighter. I like a scope for it's quality and to match the features for it's application.
 
#120
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

After glassing his quarry with his Zeiss binoculars, our hero, Rock Hunter, leans down and picks up his Swarovski rangefinder to range the beast. He now lifts his rifle by the McMillan stock and turns his elevation knob on his fine Schmidt and Bender to match the distance. Raising his custom Surgeon rifle to his shoulder he turns around and says wonderingly "Where does the bullet go?".
 
#122
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

I was just comparing my Vortex Viper PST against my Falcon Menace for resolution/detail this morning. I was looking at some reeds against a boulder about 200 yards away. Both scopes were set at 14x.

IMO the Falcon Menace did better which disappointed me but I was not really surprised. I think the glass is the worst feature of the new Vortex PST scopes and I'm not really that picky about glass as I look at a scope as a tool to aid me in getting my bullet on the mark, not bird watching.

Even so, I do wish Vortex did a little more homework in picking their glass. Even more so since I purchased a Nitrex 3-15 x 42 TR2. This $230 scope shows how good of glass you can get into a budget scope. Impressive.
 
#126
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

I just purchased a SS 10x HD and I have to say it has the best badass new glass, period. Of course I havn't compared it side by side to anything else, hell I haven't even looked through it as its still in transit to my house. But I think that it hangs with Premier, hensold, and Smidt and Bender and is definetly better than any nightforce, uso, and leupy. Thats what the internet said.:)
 
#127
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chalwie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And don't forget many well known US snipers made their shots with MK4.</div></div>M3A, actually.
wink.gif


</div></div>

Actually it is a mark 4 he was correct,the M3 part of the number refers to the turret type which is 1 moa for elevation just as the mark4 m1 used on the m107 refers to the .25 moa and the Mark4 M2 used on our m110 refers to the .5 moa elevation knob
 
#128
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajwcotton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been at a match where we were shooting a green target against green veg background with the target n the shade and the shooter in the bright sun. there were several guys that were handicapped due to their scopes not being able to pull the color out of the shade. some of the nightforce guys were even having trouble. </div></div>
I was at that match as well. It was amazing the difference in optical quality when you actually notice it. Ofcourse everything is subjective when looking at a nice white or orange target in the sun. My USO was able to pick up the small contrast while ALOT of others had absolutely no clue where the target was located. Nailed the coldbore and the next one at that stage no problem!
 
#129
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???


I think Clark is just grumpy because he probably saw a trophy deer at 25 yards but could not find it in a 16 SS scope due to it being a fixed power.

On a different topic, I personally know Leupold has great customer service because lots of their scopes have broken on me. Paying $1200 for a MK4 Leupold gets you very little over the cheaper ones IMHO.

Nightforce are great scopes, but friggin heavy.

Zeiss are nice but too fragile.

It is all very confusing.
 
#130
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

500G, you have noticed that Nightforce scopes are heavy.
This could be a big step for you.
You might be learning how to think.


Did it come to you after a long day of carrying a rifle with a NF scope and your arms hurt like hell? Or did your wife figure it out for you.
 
#132
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

My stomache hurts from laughing so hard. Funniest thing I've seen in soooo long.
There are a lot people at the range I go to that have the most "bad ass" rifle and scope money can buy but shoot like thier using a Daisy BB gun, then they stand around talking about their "bad ass" "rig" and then go home.
Oh by the way I love it when they refer to their "rig" as a "sniper" rifle! As if they know what it is to be Marine scout sniper and what equipment they use.
 
#133
Re: Who Makes the best Glass???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think Clark is just grumpy because he probably saw a trophy deer at 25 yards but could not find it in a 16 SS scope due to it being a fixed power.

On a different topic, I personally know Leupold has great customer service because lots of their scopes have broken on me. Paying $1200 for a MK4 Leupold gets you very little over the cheaper ones IMHO.

Nightforce are great scopes, but friggin heavy.

Zeiss are nice but too fragile.

It is all very confusing. </div></div>

Where do you get the information that the Ziess is "Too Fragile" ? Link Please.
 
#139
BattleAxe said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew I'd get jumped on for supporting the Mark 4 line, which I dont get but anywho, why cant anybody on here say "this is what I prefer and my OPINION is scope X has the best glass, what works for you is what works for you"? I think too often people on here get assaulted cause they don't use kit that is "the norm". like cocador, why do you feel the need to imply I'm ignorant cause I choose a scope and posted my opinion because it's not what you use or prefer? when in fact that is only your OPINION as well

sorry for the rant guys </div></div>

I have a MK4 and a USO and sure, the USO is freakin' sweet BUT, it doesn't make me shoot any better than a set of forged Nike irons would to get me into the PGA tour. Anyone that believes otherwise doesn't shoot much. The MK4 is a great scope in its price range. If you can get a new MK4 for $300 less than say a used... whatever, not only do you get a warranty but you'll improve your skills by the amount of ammo that money will buy you. Ammunition will improve your shooting better than any scope can
wink.gif
Click to expand...

Nike golf anything definitely won't help you get on the PGA Tour... :)
 
#140
The problem (question) here may be "who makes the best Glass or Best Optics, but in my opinion, the question should REALLY be "How do I figure out who makes the appropriate quality glass/optics for MY MISSION/NEEDS?"

I very often see guys spending WWAAAYY too much for optics when they could easily do with some Walmart junk scope, but they seem to think that they need all the "bling" and totally wonderful optics so they can brag about their scope. They can't shoot, have no idea how to figure things out for themselves, don't understand matching a whatever to the mission requirements, and are nothing more than keyboard kommandos interested in "tacticool" and nothing more. How can anyone that has NOT looked through a bunch of scopes and USED them in a bunch of situations have a vote that is worth considering when it is based on nothing more than conjecture, what other keyboard kommandos said and BS?

Granted, having great optics is nice, but the folks that spend 4, 5 or 6 thousand bucks on a scope that lives in their closet except for when they bring it out to brag about are nuts in my opinion.

Granted, there appears to be a market for high-end scopes, but in most instances the folks buying these are wasting their money.....but then if that rows their boats, I guess that is OK with me. I'd bet that MAYBE one person in 50 on here actually has the true ability to shoot well enough, knows enough about shooting/shooting equipment and has shot enough to offer a valid, well-founded opinion.

Optics that are good enough for the intended mission are all that is needed as long as the scope is sturdy enough to not be continuously failing/broken/useless. GOOD RELIABLE and REPEATABLE adjustments are FAR, FAR more important than great optics and having a reticle useful for mission requirements runs a close second to that. There are some truly AWESOME (what an overworked word that is!) shooters out there that are capable of doing amazing things with a rifle that a lot of people wouldn't even look at and most people are wannabe "hobby shooters".
 
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