I always seem to be.4 mil right compared to other shooters during matches. I double checked my zero on successive days and spot on. I am left handed shooting an AI 6.5 creed and from 500yds on to 1000 I am at least. 4 mil rt of everyone else on the line. The best explanation so far seems to be trigger control. Thoughts? Thx
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Advanced Marksmanship Why am I right?
- Thread starter vivdav
- Start date
Wouldn't cant be more likely if it was a greater hold such as 1 or 2 mils and not just .3 or .4 mil and at longer distances? Also it is so consistent that I thought it would be trigger or positional or left handed thing
Cant can cause anywhere from 0 to maybe .5 mils of shift at normal LR distances before you should definitely notice it. If you are consistently wrong the same amount (which is possible, if it looks right to your eye for whatever reason you'd do the same thing every time).
When I first started LR shooting I had the same issue where I'd consistently hit right of where I should have, even with R->L winds. A bubble level exposed my bad habit.
It may also be related to your position. Butt placement or sympathetic tensing in your shoulders.
When I first started LR shooting I had the same issue where I'd consistently hit right of where I should have, even with R->L winds. A bubble level exposed my bad habit.
It may also be related to your position. Butt placement or sympathetic tensing in your shoulders.
Sometimes it's a system of elimination of what could be the particular issue for a shooter. It very well could be any of those things or sometimes a combination of things... Like for example, trigger pull causing cant with recoil management. It could be something as simple as gripping harder with shooting at distance. And if you are not square into your shoulder pocket it can cause you to cant with recoil management.
Here's a nice little vid illustrating what cant can do at distance ---starting at 8:45 to 13 min on video. I'm not advocating a bubble level is necessary with the video, just simply using it to illustrate cant issues.
Rifle cant as well as pushing the trigger back to the left(opposite of hooking).
Take a video with your phone and review, may show faults in form.
R
Take a video with your phone and review, may show faults in form.
R
Thanks. I think with this help I will get it figured out. I am continuing to improve and at least consistent with what I am doing wrong over the last year and have accommodated to the defect
Have you let other people shoot your rifle to see if they are also hitting right. If your reticle is not aligned with your bore then you will hit left or right and it will increase the further out you go.
A way to achieve perfect vertical adjustment is the following:
In your house use a rest and point the rifle at a wall. Hang a plumb line on the wall. Get the rifle sturdy in the rest where the vertical crosshair line is perfectly in line with the plumb line. Then adjust your scope bubble level so that it is level. This will help you keep the scope level to gravity. Next is how to make sure the scope is aligned with the bore of your rifle.
To do this you use a level to draw a line on your target, straight up and down and the taller the better. You will confirm you are zeroed at the bottom of that line then you will dial up and reshoot at the same point of aim. Your shots should hit higher on the target and you can see if the scope is aligned with your bore. If it is aligned then the shots will strike on the line, if not then it will hit to the right or left of the line. If it is not aligned then you can loosen the scope screws and rotate it until it is aligned. This can also show you the error in the scope adjustments (Dialing 1 MIL is actually .95 MIL or 1.05 MIL):
To visualize the issue:
In the case of you canting the rifle, the black line would be a plumb line and the red line is the center of the reticle. The more you dial on the scope, the further you will separate from true vertical.
In the case of the scope not being aligned wit the bore, the black like is the vertical of the scope and the red line is where the bore is pointing, the further you dial on the scope, the further the bore will separate from the scope.
This is why you need to make sure both the scope is aligned with the bore AND the bubble level is aligned with the scope.
A way to achieve perfect vertical adjustment is the following:
In your house use a rest and point the rifle at a wall. Hang a plumb line on the wall. Get the rifle sturdy in the rest where the vertical crosshair line is perfectly in line with the plumb line. Then adjust your scope bubble level so that it is level. This will help you keep the scope level to gravity. Next is how to make sure the scope is aligned with the bore of your rifle.
To do this you use a level to draw a line on your target, straight up and down and the taller the better. You will confirm you are zeroed at the bottom of that line then you will dial up and reshoot at the same point of aim. Your shots should hit higher on the target and you can see if the scope is aligned with your bore. If it is aligned then the shots will strike on the line, if not then it will hit to the right or left of the line. If it is not aligned then you can loosen the scope screws and rotate it until it is aligned. This can also show you the error in the scope adjustments (Dialing 1 MIL is actually .95 MIL or 1.05 MIL):
To visualize the issue:
In the case of you canting the rifle, the black line would be a plumb line and the red line is the center of the reticle. The more you dial on the scope, the further you will separate from true vertical.
In the case of the scope not being aligned wit the bore, the black like is the vertical of the scope and the red line is where the bore is pointing, the further you dial on the scope, the further the bore will separate from the scope.
This is why you need to make sure both the scope is aligned with the bore AND the bubble level is aligned with the scope.
Great advice. This is what I was wanting to test. I used proper Wheeler levels to set everything up over a year ago but wondered if it was all plumb. I have several things to test at the range. Amazing help from everyone
If you adjust your vertical reticle element to align with the plumb line but the reticle is canted within the scope body, wouldn't adding mechanical elevation adjustments via the scope turrets cause the flight path to track horizontally divergent to the intended track and wouldn't it multiply with distance just like traditional canting of the rifle?\
Wouldn't leveling the scope via machined flat on the bottom of the turret housing at least insure that you are tracking in a true vertical when dialing dope?
If the possibility of a canted level exists (it is not uncommon), wouldn't you would have to decide whether you wanted to setup the system for perfect holdovers or perfect dialing ?
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Yes, that is correct.
If you believe that the reticle travel can be out of alignment with the turrets then surely you believe that the machining of the scope flats may not be perfect but it is a good starting point.
Yes, that is correct. If it truly is not that uncommon then you should do a test to determine if this issue is present then decide which one you want to adjust for, or get a different scope/send your current scope back to be repaired.
If its always .4 you are at least consistent.
Most likely, Cant. I can consistently mess my cant up by just going with what I think looks level. Its taken me a LONG time of comparing to my bubble level to figure out that to me, what looks like a slight cant, is actually level.
The best way (not the cheapest) is to mount your scope in something like a Badger Dead Level, hang a line that falls true with gravity and project your reticle onto the wall and make it perfectly level. Then you can set your bubble level up on your tube and level it with the dead level or the hanging line.
You could do the same thing if you have a really good vise that you trust to keep your rifle level once you start messing with it and the scope rings.
For reference -
-The other thing like people have said is your trigger control. You may be doing the same thing EVERY time, but if its wrong you'll be consistently wrong.
-Something else that I didnt see mentioned (depending on caliber) your position could be a cause. If you dont have a good NPA and managing recoil properly, you could be consistently allowing it to recoil and move before the bullet leaves the barrel. Similar to an elevation change from prone to a compromised position.
Most likely, Cant. I can consistently mess my cant up by just going with what I think looks level. Its taken me a LONG time of comparing to my bubble level to figure out that to me, what looks like a slight cant, is actually level.
The best way (not the cheapest) is to mount your scope in something like a Badger Dead Level, hang a line that falls true with gravity and project your reticle onto the wall and make it perfectly level. Then you can set your bubble level up on your tube and level it with the dead level or the hanging line.
You could do the same thing if you have a really good vise that you trust to keep your rifle level once you start messing with it and the scope rings.
For reference -
-The other thing like people have said is your trigger control. You may be doing the same thing EVERY time, but if its wrong you'll be consistently wrong.
-Something else that I didnt see mentioned (depending on caliber) your position could be a cause. If you dont have a good NPA and managing recoil properly, you could be consistently allowing it to recoil and move before the bullet leaves the barrel. Similar to an elevation change from prone to a compromised position.
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I watched Brian Litz's video and I am going to perform his test tomorrow and I think I will have a lot answered after that. That was a wonderful video with very scientific approach. I will put a level on my scope and recheck plumb and measure at distance with a level target. Thanks again. I have taken one course on basics but after a year I think it is time for another and would like to go out to Frrank Galli's course or something comparable.
I did a tall target test and the scope is tracking and not canted. I however seem to cant more than I expected so I will need to buy a scope level and practice with it till I get that part of my shooting down. I will get someone who knows what they are doing to watch me shoot to check my mechanics and trigger pull and recoil management. Got a lot figured out through this post. Thanks
If it’s a natural cant and not way off, you can either adjust your buttpad if it allows it, or level the reticle gravity, but your rifle to your natural cant.
Otherwise, you’ll likely be fighting it all the time as your body wants to naturally shoulder the rifle that way. That’s assuming it’s not just poor fundamentals.
