Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

[Jayne]

I was given ~1000 .308 cases that were picked up at a police range. 600 of them are FC, the rest are a mix of winchester and BHA.

Today I full sized, trimmed, chamafered (sp?) and cleaned the primer pockets on all the FC, and playing with a few of them in the rifle I find that they chamber, but are 'tight'. Damn, my sizer must have gone out of adjustment. I check it, and it's fine. I grabbed some of the random winchester and without sizing it won't chamber in my rifle at all, not surprising, right? Using the same full sizer I run the winchester brass and it now chambers like factory ammo. Just what you would expect. Next up I try some BHA and it too is fine. I run a few of the FCs through the die again and they don't change. Chamber but are tight.

Next up I break out the mic and the winchester and BHA measure correctly. The FC is all a smidge too long at the shoulder.

I tried some Nosler and Lapua brass from a different rifle, size it and it's fine.

The sizer can't be set back any further, it's snugly against the shell holder.

I tried it without the decap/expander in it thinking maybe the FC is thicker and pulling it out of the neck is re-stretching the brass or something. Apparently that's not it.

I also trimmed some of the FC a little shorter and re-sized, that didn't change anything. It shouldn't have, but I was running out of ideas.

Any suggestions?

 

[Michael]

Re: Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

for the federal cases, try setting your size die another 1/16th turn into the shell holder, so that the lever is used to cam the casing into the die during the last 1/8 inch of ram travel. Makes a difference.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Why can't I resize Federal brass correctly?

A shell holder can be shortened with emery paper on a flat surface. Use a figure-eight motion for a uniform cut. Might want to use a second shell holder; Lees are <span style="text-decoration: line-through">cheap</span> inexpensive.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

This is why it is not a good idea to use brass fired in another weapon

 

[Fuzzball]

Re:

"Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?" You can. The whole idea of FL sizing to SAAMI specs is to remake the ammo so it fits in any rifle chambered for that cartridge, no matter what weapon it was previously fired in.

We can't simply set any die at some fixed point and forget it, never having to adjust it again. Things change that require readjustment, you just found one of those changed things! Federal cases are a bit harder - stronger - than the others so it springs back a tad more after resizing. As Michael said above, turn the die down another 1/16th turn (about 4.5 thou) and all should be well.

Your shell holder is usable for several other cartridges. Why mess it up with grinding when adjusting the die will fix things?

 

[Wind50cal]

Re:

Jayne,

Your using your head in this process, your attempted solutions were good ones. I think Winchester69 has the answer. Personally, I'd take .010" off, that will give you room to play. That last tiny bit of "cam" is exerting a LOT of pressure! You do not want it exrting that pressure to your frame-something will give. I would also highly suggest purchasing a Dillon or Wilson case gauge. This simple device lets you know exactly where you are on your SAAMI specifications. Federal brass is much thicker than standard brass, probably where your sizing issue is coming from. Also be aware with "thicker" cases comes less volume-less volume more pressure! DO NOT take a powder charge that works in Winchester cases and put it in the Federal your pressures will rise. Work up.
I use any once fired brass I can get! Some goes for plinking, some for match, some (less desirable for tracer and machinegun. Glad to see you asking the questions. Hope this helps.
Wind

 

[vinconco]

Re:

What type of lube are you using? I have found that applying a good even coating of imperial die wax will actually size the case a little more that when using a minimum amount of regular spray lubes. It may be enough to get you over the hump.

 

[BHP9]

Re:

For brass fired in another rifle, I use a small base die. It eliminates all problems with chambering.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Winchester 69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shell holder can be shortened </div></div>

Ah, a shorter shell holder!

I've been using RCBS holders (and dies) but I went back into the parts box and found an old Lee holder and it's already 'shorter' than the RCBS! I set the die down and presto, now the FC comes out with the same mic measurements as the other brands and it isn't snug when chambering.

Lesson learned. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Jayne]

Re: Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is why it is not a good idea to use brass fired in another weapon </div></div>

Normally I wouldn't but I'm making up ammo for my first RO class and I'm guessing I'm going to lose most of it so I didn't want to throw away my 'good' brass.

 

[Jayne]

Re:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What type of lube are you using? </div></div>

Hornady 1-shot until I ran out, some cheap midway house brand for the last batches.

For all my experimenting I've been using imperial since I'm just doing 3 cases at a time.

 

[Jayne]

Re:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wind50cal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would also highly suggest purchasing a Dillon or Wilson case gauge.
</div></div>

I've got the RCBS mic, I thought that was the right tool for this job?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> DO NOT take a powder charge that works in Winchester cases and put it in the Federal your pressures will rise. Work up. </div></div>

I knew that part, I've read on here that FC is lower volume so I did some chrono testing with this brass to get my load where I wanted. I usually shoot such slow loads that I still had to go up from my regular charge to get back close to factory ammo speeds. Federal match was ~100 fps faster over the chrono than my normal lapua brass load, even when moving that charge to the FC cases.

 

[918v]

Re:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BHP9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For brass fired in another rifle, I use a small base die. It eliminates all problems with chambering. </div></div>

A standard FL die eliminates all problems as well. Small base dies do not increase headspace over standard dies.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re:

I run lots of once fired FC in my rifle. Only about half was fired in MY rifle. The other half was a mix of Remington and Savage.

I FL sized it in a Lee die and shellholder on either a Lee Challenger or Lee Classic Cast press. It chambers and fires just like factory ammo.

The FL die is set to bottom on the shellholder. I wasn't looking for the MOST accurate ammo. Just functional training stuff.

 

[DocB]

Re:

Jayne,

Dillon dies for .308 require a headspace gauge for the cartridge to set up correctly, as the tech mentioned when I purchased the dies and I found out while setting up the dies. I found the Dillon dies would size the body smaller than the RCBS or Redding body die, and would bump the shoulder to -0.010" without any problems.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Wind50cal]

Re:

If your running in a semi-auto, small base size dies are a necessity to avoid potential feeding problems. Bolt gun, FL is all you need. I and many others FL for all match ammo.

The Dillon or Wilson gauge is a Die body that you just..clean your case, drop in and instantly see what and how much to change
1. Headspace+or- 2. Case trim to lenght. Really simple and neat. Makes setting up dies a breeze and also gives instant "check" of any suspect rounds. Also very handy to just drop each of your match rounds into to build your confidence level.

Another tip: Colored sharpie markers. Excellent for marking sides of cases with reload info. Also good to color your bases, makes picking up "your" brass so much easier. You'd be surprised at the guys who say,"who's got the red brass"!

Glad your issue is resolved! Congragulations!

 

[Domestique]

Re: Why can't I resize federal brass correctly?

I'm having the same problem with my once fired FC 308 brass. I just cant seem to set the die correctly so that it chambers easily. I start by bottoming the die out on the shell holder, and I've gone as far as turning the die in until I run out of threads on the die, and still no luck. One thing I'm noticing is that I cannot get the bottom of the die to touch the shell holder even though I have it set up so that it will touch with no shell in the press. I don't think this is normal? It does this with other brands of brass, but I have no problem resizing those. I'm using Lee dies BTW.

 

[okiefired]

Re:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Federal cases are a bit harder - stronger - than the others so it springs back a tad more after resizing. </div></div>


Ya know, for years on here I've heard Feds trashed and they are softer and weaker than anything else and cant be resized over a 2 or 3 times although I have some that are on thier 5th loading with no signs of trouble. I use them excscluvely in my .308's because I get them once fired, FGMM and free. I think hard metal springs back more than soft, example...auto suspension springs. also, dont know but they run through my dies easier than anything else I've used. Now, two or three times, someone has said its harder although I havnt seen it debated either way. So, which is it?

okie

ps. I guess this is still about the subject, dont want to steal anyones thread.

 

[Hummer]

Re:

Federal brass is softer than others. That is not just my opinion but based on actual statement by Federal Ammo Engineers to me at Camp Perry back in 80s. They explained they use one less operation in ammo production. Since brass "work hardens" the brass has not been subjected to the same work hardening as other lines.

Yes it will take more loads but avoiding trying to obtain magnum velocities with your loads will cause it to last longer.

I suspect the reason the Fed is giving trouble is the chambers it was fired in are headspaced "long".

A L.E. Wilson case gage (Midway and Sinclair have them) will tell you all you need to know. If you are sizing with the shell holder touching the die at the top of the travel WITH A CASE IN DIE and you still have hard closing I suspect you have a die that is chambered too deep.

You could also use a MO Gage which will tell you exactly how far your ammo shoulder moves forward before contact the chamber shoulder. With a Mo you can adjust your dies to bump the should back .001 to .002 and you will be fine. MCS 166 Pocono Rd. Brookfield, Conn. 06804 203-775-1013.


If you place a GO headspace gage in a Mo it will read "0". If you place a fired case in the MO it will read the amount the shoulder went forward on firing. I try to headspace my rifles so a fired case reads "0" or up to .002" forward shoulder movement. Basically I can take fired cases and drop them in a Wilson case gage and they will gage as acceptable insofar as headspace is concerned.

Think about it, if the brass doesn't move it has to last longer.

If it is long (in Wilson Case Gage) and you have bottomed the die on the shell holder you can (per RCBS directions) send die in and a handful of fired cases and they will adjust it assuming your chamber is in spec. You can sand a case holder down (as outlined above) or you can have someone with a lathe take off about .010" from bottom of your die making sure to re-radius the bottom of die.

 

[Domestique]

Re:

Die chambered too deep...perhaps not. The problem I'm actually having is that with brass in the die, I can't get the die to touch the shellholder no matter how hard I pull on my press. This happens with all types of brass, but it's only a problem with federal brass as I can't find any setting which allows easy chambering in my gun.

 

[okiefired]

Re:

I'd call RCBS and explain your problem. Bet they'll make it right.

okie

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Why can't I resize Federal brass correctly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayne</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Winchester 69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shell holder can be shortened. </div></div>
Ah, a shorter shell holder!

I've been using RCBS holders (and dies) but I went back into the parts box and found an old Lee holder and it's already 'shorter' than the RCBS! I set the die down and presto, now the FC comes out with the same mic measurements as the other brands and it isn't snug when chambering.

Lesson learned. Thanks for the idea. </div></div>
You're welcome.