Why do democrats dislike the middle class?

[NY700]

i find it interesting that you would view me as a hardcore leftist. The hardcore leftists I work with certainly don’t.

my general take on the country as a whole from those I’ve met all around it, about 10% crazy crock pot racists to the right. About 10% basically true socialist to the left. The remaining 80% generally agree most of the way on most general subjects and of that 80% about half could go just about either way on at least half the topics generally discussed.

there is a reason most national elections have ended within a couple percentage points.

as far as being against the 2A. I’m not sure I have ever spoke out against the second amendment. Why am I on this forum well shit I’ve been here for like a decade and it’s because it’s a great repository of info.

the OP wanted an opinion from the left I supplied. The OP did not ask for a rebuttal of that opinion from someone on the right.

simple fact is the left believes they are championing the middle class. I think the first needed step is to define in this modern era what the middle class actually means. For leave it to beaver it was a one income family in the suburbs with a new car every two to three years and a wife at home tending house. Nota large % of home fit that bill anymore.

I can care less about left vs right. Me personally since you called my position into question. I first want politicians who recognize their role which is to represent. I think too many have been their so long they believe “they know best”. In this modern day of communication I want a representative to have more open and active communication with their electorate. They should be coming back to their electorate and openly discuss the issues, educate on the finer points and pile their people and vote accordingly.
I want politicians who discuss 10,20,30 year plans. (This is where China destroys us in looking forward). We can hardly make it to the next fiscal quarter.

I want politicians who can discuss how they are going to to gain concessions not stand in object defiance. It’s easy to stand there and say I’m just going to vote no 500 times and effectively get nothing done. There is no skill in that and there should be no reward for that.

you called me a radical leftist. If you care feel free to ask me a question on a topic I’ll share my view

 

[OldSalty]

i find it interesting that you would view me as a hardcore leftist. The hardcore leftists I work with certainly don’t.

my general take on the country as a whole from those I’ve met all around it, about 10% crazy crock pot racists to the right. About 10% basically true socialist to the left. The remaining 80% generally agree most of the way on most general subjects and of that 80% about half could go just about either way on at least half the topics generally discussed.


I hate to break it but there are racists to the left, right and center.

there is a reason most national elections have ended within a couple percentage points.

as far as being against the 2A. I’m not sure I have ever spoke out against the second amendment. Why am I on this forum well shit I’ve been here for like a decade and it’s because it’s a great repository of info.

I have a honest question. How do you reconcile supporting a democrat candidate yet still support the intended meaning of 2A? Not that 2A is the only issue, but I am specifically asking about 2A. What ideas or policies from a democratic candidate do you support where you are willing to sacrifice 2A?


the OP wanted an opinion from the left I supplied. The OP did not ask for a rebuttal of that opinion from someone on the right.

IMO, open discussion is usually a good idea. Shouldnt be an issue if someone wants to join the conversation.

simple fact is the left believes they are championing the middle class. I think the first needed step is to define in this modern era what the middle class actually means. For leave it to beaver it was a one income family in the suburbs with a new car every two to three years and a wife at home tending house. Nota large % of home fit that bill anymore.

I do not recall anyone defining the middle class as leave it to beaver - so not sure why the reference. However, I would bet the goal posts are about to move...again. Perhaps you can provide a definition? We can start from there.


I can care less about left vs right. Me personally since you called my position into question. I first want politicians who recognize their role which is to represent. I think too many have been their so long they believe “they know best”. In this modern day of communication I want a representative to have more open and active communication with their electorate. They should be coming back to their electorate and openly discuss the issues, educate on the finer points and pile their people and vote accordingly.
I want politicians who discuss 10,20,30 year plans. (This is where China destroys us in looking forward). We can hardly make it to the next fiscal quarter.

I am in agreement with many of your points here.

I want politicians who can discuss how they are going to to gain concessions not stand in object defiance. It’s easy to stand there and say I’m just going to vote no 500 times and effectively get nothing done. There is no skill in that and there should be no reward for that.

Good intentions in disquise or true compromise? Lots of people also believe compromising means getting their way, or else you arent compromising....trust is earned and goodwill has usually has a limit.

you called me a radical leftist. If you care feel free to ask me a question on a topic I’ll share my view.

 

[wade2big]

I despise the left. From center left all the way the end of the spectrum.

 

[forrestgump01]

THE DEMOCRAT PARTY

 

[lonegunman762x51]

i find it interesting that you would view me as a hardcore leftist. The hardcore leftists I work with certainly don’t.

my general take on the country as a whole from those I’ve met all around it, about 10% crazy crock pot racists to the right. About 10% basically true socialist to the left. The remaining 80% generally agree most of the way on most general subjects and of that 80% about half could go just about either way on at least half the topics generally discussed.

Strangely enough about 90% of mass shooters and school shooters are left politically. The Virginia Tech shooter wrote hate mail to then President Bush. In the 20th century, about 150,000,000 people were starved, shoot, stabbed, gassed and buried alive by people with the exact same views as Bernie Sanders and AOC. So when you proclaim people on the right side to be racist and ignore the segregationist, Klansman history of the Democrats it is pretty pathetic.

there is a reason most national elections have ended within a couple percentage points.

That reason is that we have a two party system. In reality, only about 15% of Americans think like you do. Before I start thinking the majority of Americans think like I do, I take a minute and remind myself how easily they are swayed by bullshit on TV.

as far as being against the 2A. I’m not sure I have ever spoke out against the second amendment. Why am I on this forum well shit I’ve been here for like a decade and it’s because it’s a great repository of info.

You support people who want to rewrite the Constitution and despise the 2nd amendment. What information are you here seeking?

the OP wanted an opinion from the left I supplied. The OP did not ask for a rebuttal of that opinion from someone on the right.

simple fact is the left believes they are championing the middle class. I think the first needed step is to define in this modern era what the middle class actually means. For leave it to beaver it was a one income family in the suburbs with a new car every two to three years and a wife at home tending house. Nota large % of home fit that bill anymore.

There is simply no proof whatsoever that left champions the middle class. If anything the left seeks to destroy the middle class and reduce everyone to poverty. More than 50% of America is middle class and more than 70% of Americans consider themselves middle class. You are here spouting garbage about women remaining stay at home mom's and other sexist garbage as proof of no middle class. Trump has done more for the middle class than any Democrat since Kennedy ( a president murdered by a communist supporter). Reducing the number of foreign criminals in America has shrunk the illegal labor pool and driven up wages faster than inflation for the first time in fifty years. Trump has shrunk black unemployment to record lows......................something Obama never even cared to try. Obama was passing 5,000 new regulations a month, by reversing those regs hundreds of thousands of new jobs have been created.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/26/how-many-americans-qualify-as-middle-class.html

I can care less about left vs right. Me personally since you called my position into question. I first want politicians who recognize their role which is to represent. I think too many have been their so long they believe “they know best”. In this modern day of communication I want a representative to have more open and active communication with their electorate. They should be coming back to their electorate and openly discuss the issues, educate on the finer points and pile their people and vote accordingly.
I want politicians who discuss 10,20,30 year plans. (This is where China destroys us in looking forward). We can hardly make it to the next fiscal quarter.

Most communist and socialist countries use 10,20 and 30 year plans to reach their goals. So you are advocating a communist style central government controlled economy and claiming to be centrist.

I want politicians who can discuss how they are going to to gain concessions not stand in object defiance. It’s easy to stand there and say I’m just going to vote no 500 times and effectively get nothing done. There is no skill in that and there should be no reward for that.

you called me a radical leftist. If you care feel free to ask me a question on a topic I’ll share my view

You views are not radical for a leftist. You are a typical leftist in my opinion. You want to destroy the Constitution, you want a centralized government controlled economy. You want centralized government controlled medicine so you can have people killed quietly by denying them medical treatment based on their political and religious views. You do not believe in the right to self-defense or allowing private citizens the right to bear arms. You want restriction on private property and the government to seize wealth and redistribute it for your version of the greater good.

So why don't you move to China? Or Russia? Or maybe Cuba or Venezuela? Live under the comfort and luxury of a planned economy for a decade or three and report back to us on a regular basis? It's easy to be a commie from the luxury of your climate controlled capitalist home with your belly full of good food. Why not man-up and do it for real?

 

[wade2big]

@lonegunman762x51, the leave it to beaver comment the lefty made is the only thing he said that I wished was true. If more families could afford to have a stay at home mom to raise the kids instead of daycare, it would be for the better. I’m fortunate I can afford to do so and have a wife who appreciates that. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I think more would choose to do so if it were possible for them.

Of course the goal of our politician should is for that not to be possible. Kill the middle class. Sick bastards

 

[lonegunman762x51]

@lonegunman762x51, the leave it to beaver comment the lefty made is the only thing he said that I wished was true. If more families could afford to have a stay at home mom to raise the kids instead of daycare, it would be for the better. I’m fortunate I can afford to do so and have a wife who appreciates that. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Of course the goal of our politician should is for that not to be possible. Kill the middle class. Sick bastards

As a conservative, NY700 would think nothing but horrible thoughts about you for advocating for a stay at home mother and wife. Yet he advocates for it here.

It is entirely possible to have a single income family, my wife stayed home and raised her children while her first husband worked. They did it by careful budget management and more dining at home. Most people could manage on one income if the stay at home parent honestly cooked, cleaned and tended the family and they squandered less money on entertainment. Getting rid of three kids cell phones and cable TV would save $3-4 thousand dollars a year. Easing back on the latest kids fashion would save thousands. Home cooked meals saves thousands of dollars.

Then again, my mom stayed home and she was worthless. Food was two colors at my house, burnt black and boiled gray. ?

 

[EddieNFL]

It can't "happen anyway" unless folks are willing to vote for it, or specifically vote for politicians that will do it.
I can pretty much guarantee you nobody will get voted in or stay voted in who will actually do that.

So essentially it won't ever happen until it hits a wall and is forced to happen.



True but the beauty of it is that they have convinced everyone to protect what is "theirs" even though in reality the actual money was spent long ago and what they have is simply a promise to try to tax someone else to pay for your benefits.

Just try for a moment even here on the hide, see if you could get everyone receiving SS payments or military pensions / disability payments / state funded pensions that it would be great if they could all vote to just go cold turkey and give it up because it would be better to make things good for a couple generations from now.

Bet down to almost every last one it will be "I paid for it and I deserve and am owed what I'm supposed to get".

You mention Greece in an earlier post. If my feeble old mind isn't confusing facts again, did they not vote in a crew that promised to do just that, but as soon as they started the ball rolling there was an upheaval.

 

[EddieNFL]

as far as being against the 2A. I’m not sure I have ever spoke out against the second amendment.

So, you're not sure you haven't. You reek of the, "I support the second amendment, but no one needs a..." type.

 

[NY700]

So, you're not sure you haven't. You reek of the, "I support the second amendment, but no one needs a..." type.

not at all and my safe doesn’t agree either. I feel very strongly that the 2nd amendment was for one reason and one reason only any that is to stop an oppressive over reaching government.

I will admit Americans have different views of what that looks like.

I actually just have my father his first “real” pistol last night. I say real because he has some very old vintage revolver in. No condition to shoot. A beretta 81 picked up at classic and cleaned up and freshened up with some pearl grips. Looks sharp shoots great. 12 rounds. Oooh does that classify as a dangerous hi cap mag? I probably shouldn’t tell him. But as a PSA for $200 great pistol in great shape would highly suggest folks check it out.

shit I was even against the ban on the stupid as hell bump stock. I don’t think anyone “needs” on and generally think they are stupid but I’m not a go to the range and just do mag dump type of guy but I believe it your right to spray ammo into a berm if you want.

in my 20s I questioned in the modern era the effectivness/importance of the 2A as a means of stopping the government. I thought what would a modern rebellion look like vs our army with what they have available. The. You look back at Vietnam and you look at what’s gone on for the last 20 years and you watch that a local force willing to fight and sustain against a force far more powerful And this the 2A is just as relevant today as it was was then.

I’ll need to get to a computer to respond to some of the other stuff doing it on a cell phone sucks

 

[EddieNFL]

Don't know you. Maybe you're sincere or maybe you have an exceptional ability to speak from both sides of your mouth.

I can, with zero doubt say I have never spoken against the 2nd; you, in your own words cannot, so forgive me if I'm skeptical.

 

[NY700]

Don't know you. Maybe you're sincere or maybe you have an exceptional ability to speak from both sides of your mouth.

I can, with zero doubt say I have never spoken against the 2nd; you, in your own words cannot, so forgive me if I'm skeptical.

I have never spoken out against the 2nd. I did question it. And to that I think that term “to question” may mean different things to different people. Same as “to challenge” or “to test”.

I have never advocated against the second amendment nor spoke against it. But I did challenge it’s relevance , an internal debate if you will. Growing up I was taught to test ideas. Are they still relevant. Are they still correct. My conclusion is yes the 2A is as important and relevant as it was 200 years ago. Does that make me a former enemy of the second I don’t think so. I just looked into it deeper before standing up and saying I was ready to defendant.

growing up in metro NY I can tell you firearms really of any type outside of criminal activity was literally never a topic. I was the “odd kid” because I had an RWS 45 .177 and therefore the only kid in my neighborhood that had a “rifle”. I think this is one of the reasons for the left right divide on the topic is that firearms are not even part of the conversation for kids growing up there except what’s scene in the new and it’s usually bad. It’s not a cultural piece, my friends did get grandpappys hunting rifle when they turned 8. They don’t hunt. They don’t shoot. And ironically even those near the birth of our rebellion against England dont spend that much time thinking about having todefend themselves against their government.

 

[EddieNFL]

I have never spoken out against the 2nd.

So, in your earlier post you "mis-spoke?"

 

[W54/XM-388]

You mention Greece in an earlier post. If my feeble old mind isn't confusing facts again, did they not vote in a crew that promised to do just that, but as soon as they started the ball rolling there was an upheaval.

Sort of kind of the opposite.
Basically the people wanted someone who promised to take control of their national destiny and keep the good times rolling.
The Global Bankers, firmly put their foot down and said, no you will do what we say to make sure we get our money or good luck with your citizens ever getting their money out of the banks. Government said... but that's illegal you can't do that... global bankers said.... laws... we heard of them... we wrote them... good luck.

Two successive governments basically collapsed until they finally capitulated to the global bankers and pretty much everything that was once the "social safety net" in the country went bye overnight and so much for anybody on retirement or assistance.

 

[OldSalty]

Hey @NY700, I do appreciate your responses to this thread as it appears you were the only democrat to reply. I believe my original question has been at least partially answered by piecing together a few replies.

Another question I posted for you, if you would like to answer as I am genuinely and honestly interested to hear your take...

How do you reconcile supporting a democrat candidate yet still support the intended meaning of 2A? Not that 2A is the only issue, but I am specifically asking about 2A. What ideas or policies from a democratic candidate do you support where you are willing to sacrifice or make compromises on 2A?

 

[EddieNFL]

Sort of kind of the opposite.
Basically the people wanted someone who promised to take control of their national destiny and keep the good times rolling.
The Global Bankers, firmly put their foot down and said, no you will do what we say to make sure we get our money or good luck with your citizens ever getting their money out of the banks. Government said... but that's illegal you can't do that... global bankers said.... laws... we heard of them... we wrote them... good luck.

Two successive governments basically collapsed until they finally capitulated to the global bankers and pretty much everything that was once the "social safety net" in the country went bye overnight and so much for anybody on retirement or assistance.

As I said, been a while and old brain. I did recall they were squashed for bucking the system.

 

[broncoaz]

Hey @NY700, I do appreciate your responses to this thread as it appears you were the only democrat to reply. I believe my original question has been at least partially answered by piecing together a few replies.

Another question I posted for you, if you would like to answer as I am genuinely and honestly interested to hear your take...

How do you reconcile supporting a democrat candidate yet still support the intended meaning of 2A? Not that 2A is the only issue, but I am specifically asking about 2A. What ideas or policies from a democratic candidate do you support where you are willing to sacrifice or make compromises on 2A?

I also appreciate the time that NY700 has taken to reply and would like to hear his thoughts on the 2020 candidates and how he reconciles voting for any of them while claiming to support 2A. I take issue with his calling 10% on the right racists, and agree with whomever posted that there are racists in every party. Racism goes both ways, and there are plenty of entitled POC’s who think persecution of white males is fine and just payback for historical injustices. I wasn’t alive before 1976 and refuse to accept liability for injustices that they weren’t alive for either. White privilege, if it even exists, isn’t something that I caused and I refuse to accept blame and pay reparations for.

I follow things closer than I should and have opinions on the D candidates. As a 2A driven voter I can’t support any of them, but I do look at the what ifs just in case one of them wins. I make the distinction of Medicare for all or not Medicare for all. The Medicare for all candidates will result in crippling taxes and major interruptions in healthcare access, so Warren and Sanders are right out for me. Bloomberg and Buttigieg both seem more reasonable in wanting to keep the status quo and cover the uninsured with something. Biden wants to keep Barack Care to preserve his “buddy’s” legacy. personally I don’t think the whole “first gentleman“ thing will fly with the majority of voters (especially minorities), so Buttigieg is out. Biden is almost out now and has no chance of pulling it out. Bloomberg, no doubt the worst possible outcome for 2A, is the most competent and reasonable sounding of the bunch. People were trashing his debate performance, but I watched the entire debate and think he came off looking reasonable and level headed. I loved him calling out Bernie as a communist. The dual of two NY billionaires is where I see this going after the D party fucks Bernie out of the nomination for a second time. Super Tuesday will clarify the race, if Sanders wins big the D establishment will be shitting themselves. If they cheat Bernie again I do hope he goes third party.

As I stated before, I would like to see civility return to politics. My ideal ticket for 2020 or 2024 would be Nikki Haley at President and Tulsi Gabbard as VP. Those two together would pull 70% of the vote, giving them a mandate to bring the country together. At a minimum I’d like to see Trump drop Pence and take on Haley for his 2020 VP. Pence is too offensive to the left to help Trump win, Haley being a woman and POC (as well as completely qualified) could help Trump pull many middle of the road voters, especially if the D runs a couple of old white men.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Sort of kind of the opposite.
Basically the people wanted someone who promised to take control of their national destiny and keep the good times rolling.
The Global Bankers, firmly put their foot down and said, no you will do what we say to make sure we get our money or good luck with your citizens ever getting their money out of the banks. Government said... but that's illegal you can't do that... global bankers said.... laws... we heard of them... we wrote them... good luck.

Two successive governments basically collapsed until they finally capitulated to the global bankers and pretty much everything that was once the "social safety net" in the country went bye overnight and so much for anybody on retirement or assistance.

Yep, the world bank bent them over very, very hard more than once..........

 

[wade2big]

@broncoaz
You are nicer than me. I don’t respect any man that will vote for a Democrat at this point. You are a flawed human being to do so. Republicans don’t seem to be the answer either but any/all Democrats want destruction of our country and slavery for the people. That is clear to anyone with a brain and anyone who isn’t evil at heart.

I’ve said it before and will again. Vote out all Democrats before its too late and then vote out all Republicans next. If this doesn’t happen soon. We will get death and suffering. Things are changing fast men.

 

[W54/XM-388]

At a minimum I’d like to see Trump drop Pence and take on Haley for his 2020 VP. Pence is too offensive to the left to help Trump win, Haley being a woman and POC (as well as completely qualified) could help Trump pull many middle of the road voters, especially if the D runs a couple of old white men.

An interesting idea, but the idea of being "less offensive" to the left is the trap the communists/democrats/media love to pull to try to get the Republicans to put up candidates they can easily defeat. If the media starts pushing the narrative that someone would be a good candidate that would "unite the country", make sure you don't put them up. Just like over and over, they are setting you up for the kill.

There is a reason Trump has Pence.
It doesn't matter who Trump picks, the left will hate him with a passion because of the R in front of his name.
So why pander to them, instead go full in their face and cement your own base.

Take a look at Bloomberg, way worse than Trump from a "liberties and minorities and women" standpoint, but since he has a D in front of his name, well.... they will all rally around the flag.

Pence is vitally important for a couple reasons. First of all Pence brings the staunch religious types along, he also appeals to a lot of hardline conservatives. Everyone figures Trump isn't all that conservative, but they all know Pence is the silent perfect dangerous type that may just be able to keep Trump mostly in line when it comes to actual actions.

Second the communists know just like with Bush / Cheney, that if something happens to Trump, you get Pence who believes his destiny is to be the holy emperor and deep down the left is scared of waking up one day and finding themselves living out War Hammer 50,000 from the heretic's side.
They also know the hardline right side would enjoy playing holy imperial army that cleanses the world of heresy for a few years.

Thirdly, Pence is about as squeaky clean as you can get, the communists can't find anything to attack him on. He is also very careful to protect himself from reproach at all times. It makes him the perfect running mate for a candidate that has many flaws.

The 2024 election is going to be where it's at and for some reason I have a feeling the Republicans will put up the precise wrong person to go up against what I think will be a fanatically communist populist, but one that the elites control, one younger, fair looking, hitting all the right "guilt free" buttons.

 

[broncoaz]

@broncoaz
You are nicer than me. I don’t respect any man that will vote for a Democrat at this point. You are a flawed human being to do so. Republicans don’t seem to be the answer either but any/all Democrats want destruction of our country and slavery for the people. That is clear to anyone with a brain and anyone who isn’t evil at heart.

I’ve said it before and will again. Vote out all Democrats before its too late and then vote out all Republicans next. If this doesn’t happen soon. We will get death and suffering. Things are changing fast men.

I know plenty of self proclaimed democrats like NY700 who identify as 2A supporters and are generally reasonable men, in that 80% middle of the population who do believe America is the best country in the world. My brother is one of them; he hunts and fishes and is well educated, but hates the orange man and supports Sanders. The funny thing is that his wife works hard and makes buckets of money and they would be some of the hardest hit by the additional taxes because of her income. When you look at actually policies instead of the emotional contempt that so many have for the Orange man most of them agree largely with republican policies. My brother agrees with me on immigration, trade policies, and Trump’s economic practices. We disagree on environmental policies. Unfortunately he can’t see the bigger picture on 2A and suck up the contempt for orange man.

We need to educate the 80% middle of the road democrats and bring them over to the conservative side, not alienate them with name calling and seemingly irrational hatred.

The 2024 election is going to be where it's at and for some reason I have a feeling the Republicans will put up the precise wrong person to go up against what I think will be a fanatically communist populist, but one that the elites control, one younger, fair looking, hitting all the right "guilt free" buttons.

i have this fear as well. After 8 years of Trump the chances of a republican winning will be slim and the democrats will be out for blood. My hope is that Trump can pack the federal courts and Supreme Court with enough conservative minds that it slows down the pace of change in the country. Long term I believe those who think like us will lose, overwhelmed by superior numbers of those who breed like rabbits, the only question is will that be during or after my lifetime.

 

[EddieNFL]

There is a reason Trump has Pence.
It doesn't matter who Trump picks, the left will hate him with a passion because of the R in front of his name.
So why pander to them, instead go full in their face and cement your own base.

Bingo! Trump could select a gay, lesbian, trans, bisexual non-binary freak and the left would find fault.

 

[Threadcutter308]

The 2024 election is going to be where it's at and for some reason I have a feeling the Republicans will put up the precise wrong person to go up against what I think will be a fanatically communist populist, but one that the elites control, one younger, fair looking, hitting all the right "guilt free" buttons.

Agreed on everything not copied over from your previous post.

Besides, it's not like Pence hurt Trump in 2016. Particularly in hindsight, (where it's always 2020) I do believe Pence was a good choice for VP. However, I do think Pence is the wrong Presidential candidate in 2024, for most of the reasons you list. Does that mean you are probably right about the "Republicans will put up the precise wrong person" in 2024 ? I think the answer is yes. It is a given that he will violently offend the "fanatically communist populist" base of the democrat party, but more importantly, he is probably kryptonite to even the more centrist base of the democratic party.

 

[EddieNFL]

I know plenty of self proclaimed democrats like NY700 who identify as 2A supporters and are generally reasonable men, in that 80% middle of the population who do believe America is the best country in the world. My brother is one of them; he hunts and fishes and is well educated, but hates the orange man and supports Sanders. The funny thing is that his wife works hard and makes buckets of money and they would be some of the hardest hit by the additional taxes because of her income. When you look at actually policies instead of the emotional contempt that so many have for the Orange man most of them agree largely with republican policies. My brother agrees with me on immigration, trade policies, and Trump’s economic practices. We disagree on environmental policies. Unfortunately he can’t see the bigger picture on 2A and suck up the contempt for orange man.

We need to educate the 80% middle of the road democrats and bring them over to the conservative side, not alienate them with name calling and seemingly irrational hatred.

I cannot fault someone for not supporting Trump, but to support one of the useful idiots on the other side out of hate is inexcusable.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Bingo! Trump could select a gay, lesbian, trans, bisexual non-binary freak and the left would find fault.

Already irrefutable evidence of Blacks being verbally attacked and called "Uncle Toms" for siding up with either Trump or Conservatives. I sympathize with the victims, but find it humorous that the attackers poison their own wells when they don't get their way, or more "ominously", their pet minority starts thinking for themselves.

 

[NY700]

So, in your earlier post you "mis-spoke?"

I don't known that I mis-spoke
I wrote "

in my 20s I questioned in the modern era the effectivness/importance of the 2A as a means of stopping the government. I thought what would a modern rebellion look like vs our army with what they have available"

again I meant this as an internal debate. I guess we can say in doing that I was in fact questioning the 2A, but not in the same sense as someone opposing it. I feel what makes our constitution as powerful as it is, is that our founding fathers put forth a blue print and effectively highlighted areas of importance and based on their knowledge and experience bullet pointed areas of future concern, but left it in a way that can be addpted knowing that times would change and they could not possible foresee everything to come.

I grew being taught to question and evaluate. There was not a lot of "because I said so" in my house. instead there were a lot of deep conversations explaining cost benefit analysis, risk aversion and ROI. understanding some time that was a this is why this is a good choice because one of the issue later is your father will be coming home and not look to kindly upon this choice.

​

 

[wade2big]

I know plenty of self proclaimed democrats like NY700 who identify as 2A supporters and are generally reasonable men, in that 80% middle of the population who do believe America is the best country in the world. My brother is one of them; he hunts and fishes and is well educated, but hates the orange man and supports Sanders. The funny thing is that his wife works hard and makes buckets of money and they would be some of the hardest hit by the additional taxes because of her income. When you look at actually policies instead of the emotional contempt that so many have for the Orange man most of them agree largely with republican policies. My brother agrees with me on immigration, trade policies, and Trump’s economic practices. We disagree on environmental policies. Unfortunately he can’t see the bigger picture on 2A and suck up the contempt for orange man.

We need to educate the 80% middle of the road democrats and bring them over to the conservative side, not alienate them with name calling and seemingly irrational hatred.



i have this fear as well. After 8 years of Trump the chances of a republican winning will be slim and the democrats will be out for blood. My hope is that Trump can pack the federal courts and Supreme Court with enough conservative minds that it slows down the pace of change in the country. Long term I believe those who think like us will lose, overwhelmed by superior numbers of those who breed like rabbits, the only question is will that be during or after my lifetime.

You have sympathy for the morally bankrupt I can tell. This is the wrong mindset to have at this point in time. Things are moving much too quickly in the wrong direction.

You say we must win over their minds which is impossible. They are either willfully ignorant or morally corrupt/evil. Many times both.

You then go on to say we will lose in the end. You are pointing out that your logic and advice of being kind and leading the way is flawed and won’t work and to that I agree. That to me is more irrational than my bitter discontented that you mentioned. I’m not attacking you at all. I just want you to look at what you are saying.

 

[NY700]

Hey @NY700, I do appreciate your responses to this thread as it appears you were the only democrat to reply. I believe my original question has been at least partially answered by piecing together a few replies.

Another question I posted for you, if you would like to answer as I am genuinely and honestly interested to hear your take...

How do you reconcile supporting a democrat candidate yet still support the intended meaning of 2A? Not that 2A is the only issue, but I am specifically asking about 2A. What ideas or policies from a democratic candidate do you support where you are willing to sacrifice or make compromises on 2A?

good question. It is not easy.
here is what my personal experience has taught me about 2A questions and many democrats especially those centered around the major metro cities of this country. You are effectively asking them questions and to support something that is so foreign and so outside of their sphere of influence that they cant possibly have an informed response unless they individually took effort to learn. And nothing against the average American... "we aint always about get'n learned about stuff we don't care about" We might as well ask them about nitrogen content in soil for certain crops and we might as well ask middle America about their thoughts on updating subways to shorten daily metro commutes and the effect of uber on traditional cab companies.

My anger with democrats over 2A issue is their use of it as a scare tactic the same way the right has been using immigration as a scare tactic and then doing little to actually educate the electorate.

most democrat politicians can care less about gun control. hell look at where gun manufacturing takes place in this country and how many of them are in democratic strong holds like the North east and Illinois

As a democrat I do have an issue this year. I can not stand trump. Havng drown up in NY ive watched this man in the news and on page 6 (do most americans know what page 6 refers too, not an insult its just a very regional thing) I think what he displays as confidence and a no bullshit approach is absolute bullshit and not what I would hope anyperson aspiring to the highest office on the planet would hope to act like. I feel it devalues and lowers the bar of what we should demand of our leaders as a whole. Unfortunately the pull of candidates on the left are weak and unappealing. I think Biden should have listened to Obama when he said " you don't need to do this joe" (translation don't do this Joe) I agree with Bernie on wages. Most republicans agree the stagnate wages have posed an issue. Henry Ford was piece of shit bigot and anti-Semite and generally not a good man but even he realized early that if he paid his people well there would not be turn over (benefit to the company) they would be more skilled 9benefit to the consumer) they would spend their money on his product (benefit to them and the company) and if he gave them time off they would spend and drive (benefit to them and the company)

americans historically don't save. raise the middle class income 10 % and they will spend 12%
if the stores in the mall raise their pay guess what their workers will do with it, they will spend all of it and most of it will be in the mall.


so back to 2A
how do I as a "lefty" reconcile this. My gun control (common sense if you will) extends to this. I am ok with a background check, as long as it is quick and accurate. I believe a person should be bared the opportunity to purchase a firearm 1. while they are currently under indictment of a violent crime, and 2. while they are on parole of a violent crime. If found not guilty, an once full rights are returned I think they should be allowed to purchase. The question of mental sanity is a little bit more difficult. If a person has been declared mentally unfit and is under the care of another individual then they too should not be allowed to purchase a firearm in the same way that their current legal state renders them unfit to make any decisions for themselves.
red flag laws are an issue, the ability to just call someone in an report them with out due process would be an issue as well and I can not support that. does that leave someone eventually suseptable to attack yes. but having freedom is a risk and its worth protecting freedom even if that means at time we have to take risks.

At this time I can say I am not prepared to make my decision on who I would vote for. I would hope more people would also be undecided. if you are that sure of anything with this much time remaining it probably means you have stopped researching. I don't think Bernie or warren are the right choice. I like Biden but he needs to retire. I would have liked to have heard more from Tulsi Gabbard but she is still to green and untested. Pete has probably spent much of his life as the smarter guy in the room but again limited sphere of experience.

me, in my life on 2A, my favorite thing is converting liberals and those scared of firearms into gun owners and proficient shooters. again just bought my parents their first handgun. and they are excited to go to the range. not bad for two life long new Yorkers, my mother a true hippie

just yesterday we had my friends wife and 12 year old daughter at the range and they are loving it. his wife was literally trembling when we started and 4 months ago would hold a BB gun. Again the beretta 81 came in handy for newbies!

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

No not bragging. I’ve made adjustment where needed so that it is not impacting me financially to the point of an issue and I support the growth in my area that is being funded by my taxes.

I have a special needs son who receives nearly every reasonable resource imaginable at his public school should I be angry about the taxes I pay to receive that? Should my neighbor be angry that they are paying the same but their child needs less resources at the same school? My neighbor is currently pregnant, I guess if they are angry about the inequality of cost to school my child vs her child she should really hope her new born doesn’t have any issues that would make it more expensive.

I know what I get for my taxes. So I think the money could be better spent yes absolutely but I’m ok spending it. When I took my father in law to the VA last month was it first rate service no! Was it acceptable yes and do I mind paying into that system not one bit.

What I read from your postings is that you are a SJW that takes more from the well than you put in. Then you say that you "support the growth in your area that is being funded by your taxes". Ummmm, "your' taxes and others people's taxes are being spent on your child. So how does it work mathematically that "your" taxes are funding anything else?
What if your pregnant neighbor home schools their child. Should they get a 70 percent tax break? Or should they still contribute to taking care of other people's children?
In other words. I am saying that you are good with taxation levels because it suits you best.
It's easy spending other people's money.

 

[NY700]

You have sympathy for the morally bankrupt I can tell. This is the wrong mindset to have at this point in time. Things are moving much too quickly in the wrong direction.

You say we must win over their minds which is impossible. They are either willfully ignorant or morally corrupt/evil. Many times both.

You then go on to say we will lose in the end. You are pointing out that your logic and advice of being kind and leading the way is flawed and won’t work and to that I agree. That to me is more irrational than my bitter discontented that you mentioned. I’m not attacking you at all. I just want you to look at what you are saying.

did you just imply (well I guess implicitly state) I am morally bankrupt!

we do not know each other. but damn. how small and how tall is that pedestal for which you sit?

 

[NY700]

What I read from your postings is that you are a SJW that takes more from the well than you put in. Then you say that you "support the growth in your area that is being funded by your taxes". Ummmm, "your' taxes and others people's taxes are being spent on your child. So how does it work mathematically that "your" taxes are funding anything else?
What if your pregnant neighbor home schools their child. Should they get a 70 percent tax break? Or should they still contribute to taking care of other people's children?
In other words. I am saying that you are good with taxation levels because it suits you best.
It's easy spending other people's money.

no because it benefits all of us. you, as you sit today are benefitting from living in a society with one of the highest levels of education. I and you benefit everyday that the youth in this contry are in school learning ( yes some more than others) vs running around all day with no purpose. this is why some countries most youth are in gangs as they seek a place to go. if my neighbor chooses to home school her child she will have access to paid programs just as my child in public school and she will still benefit through hthe years from the education received by all the children in that school.


if I end up having to pull my child from the regular school because they can no longer service his needs, I wll not have an issue with the fact that my property tax dollars will still go to the school as before to support other kids.

 

[NY700]

What I read from your postings is that you are a SJW that takes more from the well than you put in. Then you say that you "support the growth in your area that is being funded by your taxes". Ummmm, "your' taxes and others people's taxes are being spent on your child. So how does it work mathematically that "your" taxes are funding anything else?
What if your pregnant neighbor home schools their child. Should they get a 70 percent tax break? Or should they still contribute to taking care of other people's children?
In other words. I am saying that you are good with taxation levels because it suits you best.
It's easy spending other people's money.

oh yea whats SJW?

never mind just figured it out Social Justice Warrior?!? yea no!
I do however work hard to avoid being a hypocrite when I can and I try to put up or shut up
what classifies me as a social justice warrior...its my prius isn't it!
I actually own two cars, well I guess according to my car note I share it with the bank a mini-van and a prius. why you ask because my dick is plenty big enough for a white guy. The van is by far and away the most practical vehicle on the road. I can take my kids to the store and stil have room for for the stuff we buy, I can hall the grandparents too, and they don't need an elevator to get up in it or a lift crew to get out. and I can haul full sheets of plywood on the inside, and all my shit to the range ( ive been described as a hoarder when I show up to shoot) The prius ( second one actually) it has one of the lowes tcost of ownership on the road. I do 100 miles a day I get real world 56mpg, and 65 if I try ( I usually don't try) and based on my first one 140K miles and the only maintance/repairs was oil change every 10K, headlight bulbs and standard 12v bttery went out at 6 years


other than that. I buy American when I can. I shop small privately owned vs big box when I can
I like energy efficient shit ( yes LED bulbs rock)
I try not to pollute. I do recycle why not ( shame most goes in landfill anyway)
I don't know that about it I guess. My wife line dries vs using the clothes dryer ( I think its cause she is really cheap I don't know )

 

[Greenday4537]

oh yea whats SJW?

Social justice warrior - A term conservatives use to make fun of those who are willing to fight for someone else's rights.

 

[wade2big]

@NY700
The Democrats use the 2A as a scare tactic towards the ignorant as a form of control. Its evil in it’s intent as it is based on lies and false premise. My discontent with the Democrats is the take from, keep from, and force upon mentality. Sick bastards.

It’s true the Republicans use immigration as a scare tactic. The intent is votes as well but it is at least based on reality. Immigration as it stands today in this country is destructive. My complaint with the Republican swamp is they do nothing to stop the infestation and they watch the Democrats on there path to destruction. Many rhinos are in on it. The others are willfully idle.

BIG difference between the two. One actively and knowingly destroys. The other sits by and watches it all happen. Both suck. One sucks more.

 

[The DFC]

Social justice warrior - A term conservatives use to make fun of those who are willing to fight for someone else's rights.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Social justice warrior - A term conservatives use to make fun of those who are willing to fight for someone else's rights.

Really? Which rights do you think I am talking about?
I will fight for all of your constitutional rights.
Beyond that you are on your own dime.

 

[NY700]

I guess everyone has their own take on rising tides raise all boats.
Fend for your self succeed or die
there is benefit to me in helping others.

I don't know, more importantly you (the masses) don't either. at least not for sure. I think it is important to be absolute about few things and open minded about most.

on the SJW side. what I do know (really read believe) is that it serves me little to have elderly on the streets, starving, getting poor healthcare and clogging up the systems. It also serves me little to having a growing generation of uneducated children.

personally I would love to get the financial support to put together and implement a 1 or 2 semester high school curriculum that focuses on real world life skills. taxes, insurance (auto/health), investments, retirement real world complicated shit that most never learn. in this thread we have discussed the multi generational welfare family. Should that exist no! absolutely not! but think about that child, born to that household. Think about what other household's that child is probably familiar with ( chances are not much different then her own) Her family has never owned a home, may not have a car, parents (probably parent) has never had a real loan/credit. They probably don't have insurance. Good chance no real bank account ( my first real account was whn I was 8 my parents bank had a kids bank, with real deposit book and monthly statements I learned real life lessons and we had real discussions about savings, loans, credit whe n I was in grade school) we assume a level of knowledge and understanding and reason but often fail to understand that for some even after generations they have not actually experienced these things. They have no frame of reference to even ask the questions.

the 2A debates also come back to this lake of reference point for many

I recently had a discussion with a coworker (about 10 years younger than me) they had never seen goonies, never watched top gun, had never wached goodfellas or my personal favorite a Bronx tail plus a whole host of others. I though about all these movies and tv shows and how they framed my child hood, the point of reference they created and I looked at my coworker ( in jest) and said I cant trust or rely on you as a person because I have no faith in your view of the world (clearly dramatic) but the point had value in that we assume we all see the worl through a similar lense often failing to recognize that two people literally have never seen the same world

 

[The DFC]

^^^^^If ever have insomnia-I will read one of your posts

 

[NY700]

^^^^^If ever have insomnia-I will read one of your posts

That’s cool just let me know when you do, I’ll check off my good deed for the day off my list.
It’s important to get them all marked off when reporting back to SJW headquarters ?

 

[EddieNFL]

I don't known that I mis-spoke
I wrote "
in my 20s I questioned in the modern era the effectivness/importance of the 2A as a means of stopping the government. I thought what would a modern rebellion look like vs our army with what they have available"

again I meant this as an internal debate. I guess we can say in doing that I was in fact questioning the 2A, but not in the same sense as someone opposing it. I feel what makes our constitution as powerful as it is, is that our founding fathers put forth a blue print and effectively highlighted areas of importance and based on their knowledge and experience bullet pointed areas of future concern, but left it in a way that can be addpted knowing that times would change and they could not possible foresee everything to come.

I grew being taught to question and evaluate. There was not a lot of "because I said so" in my house. instead there were a lot of deep conversations explaining cost benefit analysis, risk aversion and ROI. understanding some time that was a this is why this is a good choice because one of the issue later is your father will be coming home and not look to kindly upon this choice.

You also said...

I’m not sure I have ever spoke out against the second amendment.

...so you cannot rule out that you may have.

...but left it in a way that can be addpted knowing that times would change and they could not possible foresee everything to come.

So, do you view the constitution as a "living" document?

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

I guess everyone has their own take on rising tides raise all boats.
Fend for your self succeed or die
there is benefit to me in helping others.


Help all you want. I don't care if you spend every single dime on helping others.
Taking my money under threat of imprisonment with the guise of the government knows best?? Yeah, not so much.

I don't know, more importantly you (the masses) don't either. at least not for sure. I think it is important to be absolute about few things and open minded about most.

on the SJW side. what I do know (really read believe) is that it serves me little to have elderly on the streets, starving, getting poor healthcare and clogging up the systems. It also serves me little to having a growing generation of uneducated children.


Gee, what did we ever do before they passed the "The Great Society" legislation?

personally I would love to get the financial support to put together and implement a 1 or 2 semester high school curriculum that focuses on real world life skills. taxes, insurance (auto/health), investments, retirement real world complicated shit that most never learn. in this thread we have discussed the multi generational welfare family. Should that exist no! absolutely not! but think about that child, born to that household. Think about what other household's that child is probably familiar with ( chances are not much different then her own) Her family has never owned a home, may not have a car, parents (probably parent) has never had a real loan/credit. They probably don't have insurance. Good chance no real bank account ( my first real account was whn I was 8 my parents bank had a kids bank, with real deposit book and monthly statements I learned real life lessons and we had real discussions about savings, loans, credit whe n I was in grade school) we assume a level of knowledge and understanding and reason but often fail to understand that for some even after generations they have not actually experienced these things. They have no frame of reference to even ask the questions.

So how much more taxpayer money do you believe it is going to take for a better outcome?
Do you know why they say "Don't feed the animals"??


the 2A debates also come back to this lake of reference point for many

I recently had a discussion with a coworker (about 10 years younger than me) they had never seen goonies, never watched top gun, had never wached goodfellas or my personal favorite a Bronx tail plus a whole host of others. I though about all these movies and tv shows and how they framed my child hood, the point of reference they created and I looked at my coworker ( in jest) and said I cant trust or rely on you as a person because I have no faith in your view of the world (clearly dramatic) but the point had value in that we assume we all see the worl through a similar lense often failing to recognize that two people literally have never seen the same world

I am not sure if your post is fully viewable. I answered in red. On my phone the quotes are condensed and need to be expanded to view fully.

 

[The DFC]

That’s cool just let me know when you do, I’ll check off my good deed for the day off my list.
It’s important to get them all marked off when reporting back to SJW headquarters ?

I just wanted to see if you could manufacture a post without 16 paragraphs to get your point across

 

[wade2big]

I just wanted to see if you could manufacture a post without 16 paragraphs to get your point across

Even with the 16 paragraphs, there still is no point. ?

 

[NY700]

You also said... ...so you cannot rule out that you may have.



So, do you view the constitution as a "living" document?

I think that is fare to say you are correct I can not definitely rule it out because I can not possible know everything I have ever said while discussing or debating a point 20-25 years ago. Although most of the points I was questioning back then were more like where does one draw the line. Should a citizen have access to a tank, should they have access to a tactical nuke. Again this was me at that time debating the value of the 2nd in stopping our government, not having the knowledge to know how affective a populous with small arms could be. so my debate was mush less about should a person have the right to have a firearm and more of where does it stop, and then does it just become an arms race against the wealthy, Bill gets gets rockets and nukes and I have a rifle.


Do I believe the constitution is a living document. Since it is a document that can be amended...yes. keep in mind other doctrines of power do not have such a formal stated process of change, the only option would be to throw it out and start a new. So yes i would consider it a living document

 

[EddieNFL]

Social justice warrior - A term conservatives use to make fun of those who are willing to fight for someone else's rights.

Social Justice Warrior - A term conservatives use to laugh at liberals who use a "cause" to riot, vandalize and attack (if they have superior numbers) those who have different opinions while having zero effect on the said "cause."

 

[NY700]

@NY700
The Democrats use the 2A as a scare tactic towards the ignorant as a form of control. Its evil in it’s intent as it is based on lies and false premise. My discontent with the Democrats is the take from, keep from, and force upon mentality. Sick bastards.

It’s true the Republicans use immigration as a scare tactic. The intent is votes as well but it is at least based on reality. Immigration as it stands today in this country is destructive. My complaint with the Republican swamp is they do nothing to stop the infestation and they watch the Democrats on there path to destruction. Many rhinos are in on it. The others are willfully idle.

BIG difference between the two. One actively and knowingly destroys. The other sits by and watches it all happen. Both suck. One sucks more.

republicans as a party can not stop immigration because the businesses that support the party need the immigrants.
as I mentioned earlier I live in Dallas. the growth here over the last 20 years is incredible. And it is all on the backs of immigrants.

 

[NY700]

This post needs photos just because it does. Previously mentioned beretta 81 (biggest surprise I’ve had in a fire arm in a long time)

And my new ZCO thanks Richard at CSTactical it’s awesome!

 

[EddieNFL]

I think that is fare to say you are correct I can not definitely rule it out because I can not possible know everything I have ever said while discussing or debating a point 20-25 years ago. Although most of the points I was questioning back then were more like where does one draw the line. Should a citizen have access to a tank, should they have access to a tactical nuke. Again this was me at that time debating the value of the 2nd in stopping our government, not having the knowledge to know how affective a populous with small arms could be. so my debate was mush less about should a person have the right to have a firearm and more of where does it stop, and then does it just become an arms race against the wealthy, Bill gets gets rockets and nukes and I have a rifle.


Do I believe the constitution is a living document. Since it is a document that can be amended...yes. keep in mind other doctrines of power do not have such a formal stated process of change, the only option would be to throw it out and start a new. So yes i would consider it a living document

I don't know everything I've ever said in any particular discussion, but I have never spoken against the 2nd. I did question the electoral college until I studied the reasoning

Not sure you understand the left's idea of living document. They believe the constitution does not require an amendment to be changed, but activist judges can do so from the bench to conform to what the "people" believe. I suspect they would revert to the intent of the framers if the courts were not packed with liberals.

 

[NY700]

I don't know everything I've ever said in any particular discussion, but I have never spoken against the 2nd. I did question the electoral college until I studied the reasoning

Not sure you understand the left's idea of living document. They believe the constitution does not require an amendment to be changed, but activist judges can do so from the bench to conform to what the "people" believe. I suspect they would revert to the intent of the framers if the courts were not packed with liberals.

living document:
I believe the high court is there to interpret and apply. Even in modern documents law suits are often filed over the intent of something in a document and it goes to a judge to make that clarification. I also wouldn’t say the court is stacked with liberals. It is pretty even right now as it should be.

now the second amendment.To me not a lot to interpret there.
im sure plenty of people here hate this guy but he did a solid piece on the second

 

[EddieNFL]

living document:
I believe the high court is there to interpret and apply. Even in modern documents law suits are often filed over the intent of something in a document and it goes to a judge to make that clarification. I also wouldn’t say the court is stacked with liberals. It is pretty even right now as it should be.

now the second amendment.To me not a lot to interpret there.
im sure plenty of people here hate this guy but he did a solid piece on the second

SCOTUS does indeed interpret. Lately, they also write law (tax vs fee ring a bell). Lower courts do likewise. I did not mention legislation, but you cannot believe every law passed by "our" congress passes constitutional muster. THEY DO NOT.

Closer to even than prior to 2017.