Why is my lapua 223 brass not chambering and sizing?

[kyotekiller25]

Ok, so I just had this 223 wylde built and running into issues with lapua brass. I e always taken virgin case measurements before loading, and then fired measurements. I didn't have a problem with the starline brass, but noticed it closed pretty tight to begin with. With the virgin lapua, it's .002"-.003" longer than starline, and it chambers, but it's very tight and you can feel its just to tight, and too long and it's fucking my case heads up, obviously because I'm trying to cram it into a smaller chamber than what the case is...I've never ran into this issue before.

The guy who built my rifle said he cuts chambers tight, like the bolt just barely closes on a go/no gauge. OK fine, it's whatever but when it's so tight that new lapua brass won't even chamber without messing case heads up, I think that's a problem, no? He told me just to size the virgin lapua cases down a couple few thousands and all would be good. I've never heard a such a thing. But tonight I tried just that and this is where I'm having issues.

I sat here for 2 hours trying to size this new lapua brass down to 3.614" on my comparator. My RCBS dies are only setting them back to 3.616" which is still .001" longer than the chamber. It is sizing the starline down to 3.614" to where it chamber nice and tight, but it won't size then down any further than that. It's like my die is only sizing each fired and new case .001" and thats it, no matter how far I screw it down.

Reason my measurements are also so long is because I'm not using digital calipers a d able to zero out, so the comparator measures 2.160" at zero basically on my dial calipers.

I've screwed my die so far down now to the point where it's so cammed over I can't go anymore and the damn case still comes out at 3.616"...

Does anyone know what the hell my issue is here? I'm already over this for the night. Ready to throw rifle and brass out the window...

Here's all my measurements for the guys who care to know and maybe see what the issue is.

These RCBS FL dies have worked fine and sized other brass in other 223 rifles with zero issues. I literally have no idea what the issue could be.

Do I need the chamber cut few thousands deeper, new dies, or what? Super frustrated at this point and it's to late to call the smith, and he has a match tomorrow, so I won't even be able to get ahold of him until tomorrow evening. There goes my plans of shooting tomorrow also...

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

How is it messing up your case head? Thats the hardest part of brass. If anything, closing the bolt on tight brass will act like a sizing die and push shoulders back.

If you need to be able to size further down to get to the shoulders, you can remove some material from the bottom of the die.

 

[kyotekiller25]

So I think he maybe cut my chamber to short from the numbers I'm getting and seeing. Does this make sense?

 

[kyotekiller25]

How is it messing up your case head? Thats the hardest part of brass. If anything, closing the bolt on tight brass will act like a sizing die and push shoulders back.

If you need to be able to size further down to get to the shoulders, you can remove some material from the bottom of the die.

It's leaving a ring around the base of the case, it's gritty feeling when you chamber a round. I don't know how else to explain it. Other than it ain't right. That's all I know...

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

So I think he maybe cut my chamber to short from the numbers I'm getting and seeing. Does this make sense?
View attachment 8373687

Where are you getting your saami headspace numbers for 223 wylde?

 

[kyotekiller25]

Are they not the same as a 223? Then I guess I don't know. What are the specs for a wylde then? Either way something still ain't right here with it...Should be no reason why new lapua brass won't chamber easy, and or why my die won't size it down enough to chamber easy...Does that make sense?

 

[kyotekiller25]

Only thing I can come up with is he cut the chamber way to fucking tight or short...

1.455" is a far cry from a min of 1.463"

I don't feel like I should have to size and bump new lapua brass .004" just to chamber nicely. That's BS...

 

[Dolomite]

Yup short headspace will do that to you. Supposedly it’s shorter so the case doesn’t have to expand so much upon first firing causing thinning in the case head. theory is there is no need to fire form brass, virgin brass fits the chamber perfect.

Sounds like you need to take a few thousands off the base of the die or the shell holder. You can even try those Redding competition shell holders. The marks on the face of the base is from the bolt face rubbing against the base of the case when chambering or ejecting a fired case from the chamber.

 

[Dolomite]

Only thing I can come up with is he cut the chamber way to fucking tight or short...

1.455" is a far cry from a min of 1.463"

Mine is also short chambered. Virgin Lapua brass is 1.446-1.449 and my chamber is 1.447 headspace. I got the headspace number from sizing down a scrap piece of brass till the bolt handle barely drops without using finger to close the bolt. Anything above 1.447 won’t chamber without a hard close. Now I have to size virgin brass above 1.447. At least my virgin brass won’t grow thinning out the headspace area. No real fire forming brass and my brass should last longer in the case head area.

Brass with headspace above 1.447 was hard to open the bolt. I’m guessing the pressure when firing and no room to expand causes over pressure but I could be wrong.

 

[kyotekiller25]

So does it hurt anything to shoot the lapua brass at the longer length, and just have them form to the chamber and shrink to that size? Or should I size them down first?

I shot 4 rounds of the lapua brass before I decided to quit shooting it. Also due to a pierced primer on that 4th shot...

The starline brass seems to be right at the chamber length both new and fired. I've shot 80 rounds of the starline brass so far.

 

[Dolomite]

Pierced primer sounds like over pressure from the case being too long or longer than your headspace. Try bumping the shoulder on the virgin Lapua brass down maybe .002-.003 and drop the load. Or at least to the same size as the Starline brass. It’s frustrating as hell but in the long run your brass may last a lot longer.

 

[kyotekiller25]

That's probably why I pierced a primer on the 4th shot then? Since it's basically fire forming and shrinking the brass .003"

This is all new to me, so I'm trying to understand it the best I can while researching the specs and numbers that I have anyway.

Seems like the easiest thing to do like you said was to either shave some off the sizer or shell holder. Or he could just cut the chamber like .003" deeper

What's the easiest home remedy way to shave off the die or shell holder?

 

[Dolomite]

Yup shave off the die or shell holder which ever is the easiest. Maybe you can borrow someone’s Redding competition shell holder kit. Or try another shell holder if you spares. Rechambering just going to take longer.

Forget the SAAMI specs each go gauge is diff and each comparator is different so no numbers will be the same. That’s why SAAMI has a huge range in their numbers. Just use the fired Starline brass to determine headspace numbers. If bolt is slightly snug when chambering a fire case that is what you need to size your Lapua brass too.

Or hell if the Starline brass is working for you just use that. Less grief and it’s hell of a lot cheaper.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I was just checking out the redding shell holders. Don't seem like a bad option, but they are kinda spendy.

Seems like the Starline is right at the chamber spec so I could technically use it. The die was able to size the fired cases down .001" to 3.614" to fit, but I really really wanted to use this lapua brass, and went to great lengths to even fins the shit from a private party and over paid for it at that haha.

What a hassle...I do greatly appreciate all your help and insight on this though. Seems like I have a few different options to get it worked out. I don't have the means to shave off the die/shell holder, so I'll probably just end up buying those $75 redding shell holders...

 

[Dolomite]

I was just checking out the redding shell holders. Don't seem like a bad option, but they are kinda spendy.

Seems like the Starline is right at the chamber spec so I could technically use it. The die was able to size the fired cases down .001" to 3.614" to fit, but I really really wanted to use this lapua brass, and went to great lengths to even fins the shit from a private party and over paid for it at that haha.

What a hassle...I do greatly appreciate all your help and insight on this though. Seems like I have a few different options to get it worked out. I don't have the means to shave off the die/shell holder, so I'll probably just end up buying those $75 redding shell holders...

Haha hell yah Lapua 223 is like finding gold. I’m in the same boat except I have a Whidden die and it can bump the shoulder smaller.

For $45 more you could just buy a Whidden die. Check out Brownells or midway they had all the Whidden dies on sale for cheap.

If I knew I could use Starline brass I would have double or triple the quantity vs Lapua.

Hopefully you can get 10+ firings out of the brass with the short headspace…

keep the faith!!! At least you have an excuse if you shoot bad.

 

[Dolomite]

Can always use sandpaper on a piece of glass and do figure 8 sanding on the shell holder. Cheaper alternative.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I just ordered the redding shell holders for the lapua brass. See how it goes with them..

I bought 200 starline 5.56 at first because I couldnt find any lapua in stock anywhere, and most places were no backorder. So I put an APB want ad out in like 5 different forums for the 223 lapua brass, and a guy finally got a hold of me 2 weeks later from predator masters and said he would sell me a box for $110 shipped.

Honestly nothing wrong with this starline brass. Seems like it's every bit as good as Lapua honestly at 1/3 to 1/2 the price. This damn lapua brass is just costing me more money both in brass and shell holders now. It better pay off in the long run haha.

Why can't you use the Starline brass?

 

[Dolomite]

I just ordered the redding shell holders for the lapua brass. See how it goes with them..

I bought 200 starline 5.56 at first because I couldnt find any lapua in stock anywhere, and most places were no backorder. So I put an APB want ad out in like 5 different forums for the 223 lapua brass, and a guy finally got a hold of me 2 weeks later from predator masters and said he would sell me a box for $110 shipped.

Honestly nothing wrong with this starline brass. Seems like it's every bit as good as Lapua honestly at 1/3 to 1/2 the price. This damn lapua brass is just costing me more money both in brass and shell holders now. It better pay off in the long run haha.

Why can't you use the Starline brass?

I could use Starline too but I’m determined to get the damn Lapua brass to work.

 

[RUN8]

The solution here is to hand the rifle back to the ‘smith who did the work and tell him to un-fuck it so it will chamber virgin brass and factory loaded ammunition. If he can’t accomplish that: demand a refund and find someone who will do the work correctly.

It’s a fucking .223, brass is not expensive. There is little to be gained in brass life or precision by running a chamber that tight. There is however a ton of ass pain involved as you are discovering.

Have the guy fix it.

 

[kyotekiller25]

That sounds like a good idea. I will definitely call him and get it sorted out tomorrow. He's only a 25 minute drive from my house and he already said he would cut it deeper for me, but insisted I size the lapua brass instead.

I don't think I should have to go through all this trouble just to load and shoot a 223. I'm already irritated at that fact, and there's no reason I should have to size new brass just to shoot the shit anyway.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

If it's truly short chambered, yea, the easiest and probably best fix is to have him run the reamer back in a few thou. It won't take him any time or be an inconvenience.

It is actually possible for saami chambers to be minimum size and brass to be maximum size and the brass too large for chamber. However, just because its inside saami is no reason to not run the reamer back in and save you a ton of time.

 

[spife7980]

If you have any feeler gauges take ine that’s a few thou and slide it between the case head and the shell holder. That should artificially lift the case up and let you size it more. If that fixes the chambering issue then you’ll at least know.

I’d probably have the chamber repaired to a couple thou deeper. Just tell him you hoped you could fix the issue via sizing but it’s proving problematic in multiple brass brands.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yeah that sure sounds like that chamber is a little too short. I'd have it fixed. You can sand off the bottom of the die pretty easy and get it to size down another 2 of 3 thou but why? 1.460 is pretty standard for a short chamber in 223Wylde and I wouldn't want mine a lot shorter than that. I'd just go ask him to take 5 thou more out of it.

You can do it by hand with a rental reamer also but again, he should just be like "sure I can take care of that. Come back in an hour", and get your chamber right. Then you don't have to fool with all this other stuff and can shoot starline and lapua without issue.

Starline is pretty good brass btw so don't feel like it has to be lapua. I do shoot lapua in my bolt gun 223 and I love me some lapua but I also have about 1000 cases of it so, that makes it a lot easier to be choosy. Nothing wrong with starline and a lot of us shoot it with great success. I have gone to it in my AR's exclusively but I'd definitely shoot it in my bolt gun if needed and I do shoot it in 6.5cm bolt gun with excellent results for years.

 

[mtrmn]

Rather than remove material from the bottom of your die, remove material from the cheapest and easiest to replace part-the top of your shell holder. If nothing else, just to make sure that's the problem.
I've heard of a set of shellholders available that are stepped in height just for this type of issue.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Rather than remove material from the bottom of your die, remove material from the cheapest and easiest to replace part-the top of your shell holder. If nothing else, just to make sure that's the problem.
I've heard of a set of shellholders available that are stepped in height just for this type of issue.

Yeah that's the redding set he bought. It has various thickness shell holders to adjust that height as needed

 

[mtrmn]

Yeah that's the redding set he bought. It has various thickness shell holders to adjust that height as needed

Yeah I didn't read the whole thread before I threw my opinion in there. Sorry.

 

[FCS]

I was just checking out the redding shell holders. Don't seem like a bad option, but they are kinda spendy.

Seems like the Starline is right at the chamber spec so I could technically use it. The die was able to size the fired cases down .001" to 3.614" to fit, but I really really wanted to use this lapua brass, and went to great lengths to even fins the shit from a private party and over paid for it at that haha.

What a hassle...I do greatly appreciate all your help and insight on this though. Seems like I have a few different options to get it worked out. I don't have the means to shave off the die/shell holder, so I'll probably just end up buying those $75 redding shell holders...

Don’t buy Redding competition shell holders, those are thicker, not thinner, so you’ll be moving in wrong direction.
Find a machine shop with a precision grinder and have them take off 0.003” - 0.005” from a shell holder. I’d recommend marking that shell holder and having a standard shell holder also.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I'm just gonna take the rifle back to him this evening and have him cut it .003"-.005" deeper. At least .003" because that's the longest measured lapua case I have. They're all coming out to 1.456"-1.458"

I canceled the redding shell holders. I shouldn't have to go through all this BS and spend extra money just to shoot lapua brass. I never asked for the chamber to be that tight, he just figured it was needed for some reason...

 

[kyotekiller25]

So min spec chamber is what 1.460" essentially correct?

Mine is coming out to 1.455"

Lapua brass is coming out to 1.456"-1.458"

Starline is coming out to 1.455"-1.456"

He needs to cut it to at least 1.458" or 1.460" then correct?

He's a match director so I won't be able to talk to him and run it up this evening, but I want to make sure all these measurements are right and make sense when I tell, and show him all this.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Your measurements is from a comparator, yes? So that measurement is only valid compared to other measurements taken with that same tool. Not for an accurate comparison to SAAMI.

Just tell him your virgin brass is too long to chamber, you can’t get it sized far enough, and you want the chamber reamed deeper to a normal headspace, not tight. If there’s a lot of pushback or he can’t/won’t, I’d be looking for a different smith.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Guys, the Redding Competition Shell Holders DO NOT give you more shoulder bump. They give you less bump. in .002" increments. They will NOT size below SAAMMI minimum. FCS in post #27 has it right.

I've been using them for years. They work great for what they are.

The issue for the O/P is to take a shell holder and sand down .005"- 010" off of the top.

I've had the same issue as the O/P. I had a Mighty Armory 308 die that wouldn't bump enough. I sent it back to Wayne and he shaved .008" off of the bottom of the die. The die works perfectly now.

I do have a spare shell holder that I sanded .010" off of the top. I marked it and keep it if I need a bit more bump in another die. I also use it for 30/06,270 Win and 260 Rem. if i need a bit more shoulder bump.

O/P, I would first talk to your Smith and see of there's something he can do.

And T Rex is correct about measurement off of a comparator, the measurements do not correlate with SAAMI headspace numbers. You can't interchange the two. You could take a Go headspace gauge and measure it with your comparator to see what the comparator number is. I've done that with my comparator with the help from a Gun Smith that let me bring my comparator to his shop and he let me measure his Go gauges for 223,30/06 and 308. I wrote the numbers in a notebook and keep it for reference.

 

[Mauser48]

For reference, fired brass out of my wylde chamber measures 1.456". With redding type s dies and a redding competition shell holder (+.004) my brass comes out at 1.454". The match dies seem to be able to size brass smaller than the regular full length dies I've used. I'd have to measure again but I believe my lee full length die with a standard shell holder will only size to about 1.455".

 

[Cascade Hemi]

What kind of rifle does the OP have? Wylde chambers are the same headspace as standard 223 Remington.

 

[kyotekiller25]

For reference, fired brass out of my wylde chamber measures 1.456". With redding type s dies and a redding competition shell holder (+.004) my brass comes out at 1.454". The match dies seem to be able to size brass smaller than the regular full length dies I've used. I'd have to measure again but I believe my lee full length die with a standard shell holder will only size to about 1.455".

I have a 223 wylde chamber and fired brass is coming out at 1.455"

Virgin starline is right at 1.455" and fired comes out at 1.455"

Virgin Lapua measure 1.456"-1.458" and comes out fired to 1.455"

 

[Edds]

Have you measured the diameter of the brass at the .200" line? Lapua brass normally has a larger diameter than other brass. Some Gunsmiths use a different reamer for cartridges using Lapua brass.

 

[kyotekiller25]

What kind of rifle does the OP have? Wylde chambers are the same headspace as standard 223 Remington.

I have a bolt action 223 Wylde

 

[kyotekiller25]

Have you measured the diameter of the brass at the .200" line? Lapua brass normally has a larger diameter than other brass. Some Gunsmiths use a different reamer for cartridges using Lapua brass.

No, I have not...He didn't cut the chamber for Lapua brass. He cut it to min spec according to his no/go gauge. Regardless of what brass is being used, it's still to tight.

I didn't have the lapua brass when I had him build it. I had starline brass and gave him a dummy with starline and the 80g ELDM and told him to put it at the lands at 2.510"

I didn't get the Lapua brass until about 2 weeks after I already had the rifle back. But I knew something wasn't right from the get go with the lapua brass as it was leaving marks on the case head when chambering and it was very tight and stiff, could hear the bolt grinding as you locked it down...Starline was borderline tight as it was also.

I didn't know, or have the fired case measurements until I shot both pieces of brass to figure this all out.

 

[Edds]

No, I have not...He didn't cut the chamber for Lapua brass. He cut it to min spec according to his no/go gauge. Regardless of what brass is being used, it's still to tight.

The go/no-go gauges have nothing to do with using Lapua brass. They only check the chamber length.

 

[HerCoStarNTheBeaverPictur]

So min spec chamber is what 1.460" essentially correct?

Mine is coming out to 1.455"

Lapua brass is coming out to 1.456"-1.458"

Starline is coming out to 1.455"-1.456"

He needs to cut it to at least 1.458" or 1.460" then correct?

He's a match director so I won't be able to talk to him and run it up this evening, but I want to make sure all these measurements are right and make sense when I tell, and show him all this.

Just give him your biggest piece of lapua brass when you drop off the barrel

 

[ma smith]

don't accept a chamber more than .007 under book max,
unless you want to put up with all this BS

IMHO .223 benefits alot from being able to shoot box/factory ammo
giving up that benefit is un-wise, unless there is a "true need" (ie competion etc)

its a 4k round life barrel, over the life its a long time, ie many years
at some stage shooting a couple boxes factory will be desired

none of this has anything to due with Lapua

 

[kyotekiller25]

I'm sure he will have no issues chambering it 3 to 5 thou deeper, which is what I'm gonna have him do. I don't have the means nor desire to go through all this BS shaving dies and shell holders, or buying new dies and shell holders. There's nothing wrong with standard rcbs dies or shell holders. The chamber is just cut to short and I've never experienced this issue in 25 years over hundreds of rifles I've owned or loaded for, both custom and factory.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Just give him your biggest piece of lapua brass when you drop off the barrel

That's exactly what I was going to have him do. So it should come out to 1.458" so he only needs to go in .003" deeper.

I'm going to measure all 100 pieces of lapua and make sure I get the longest one. As of now, I measured about 10 of the 100 and came up with 1.456"-1.458"

 

[kyotekiller25]

don't accept a chamber more than .007 under book max,
unless you want to put up with all this BS

IMHO .223 benefits alot from being able to shoot box/factory ammo
giving up that benefit is un-wise, unless there is a "true need" (ie competion etc)

its a 4k round life barrel, over the life its a long time, ie many years
at some stage shooting a couple boxes factory will be desired

none of this has anything to due with Lapua

I'm never going to shoot factory through it, haven't shot factory ammo in 25 years aince i started handloading at 12 years old, but I do agree. It has nothing to do with either brass maker, and more of it just being a short/tight chamber issue.

 

[kyotekiller25]

What is the chamber minimum exactly? Is it 1.460" or 1.463" I keep seeing or hearing both listed...

I may just have him go 1.460" or 5 thou deeper just to be on the safe side of things.

My other main question is this though. How come the starline will size down to 1.454" after firing, but the virgin/fired lapua won't size down more than 1.456"? I don't understand that at all...

 

[Cascade Hemi]

What is the chamber minimum exactly? Is it 1.460" or 1.463" I keep seeing or hearing both listed...

I may just have him go 1.460" or 5 thou deeper just to be on the safe side of things.

My other main question is this though. How come the starline will size down to 1.454" after firing, but the virgin/fired lapua won't size down more than 1.456"? I don't understand that at all...

1.4666 -.007

Go download the specs from SAAMI. It's 223 Remington. Wylde is only the throat geometry.

 

[ma smith]

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

View attachment 8373990

That's max cartridge drawing. The min chamber drawing headspace is 1.4636-1.4736.

These numbers only work measuring with a perfect datum measurement tool, not with a comparator, so this is all academic anyways.

 

[kyotekiller25]

Perfect, thank you guys. I'm just gonna have him do 1.460" then, that should be enough to chamber any lapua brass and other manufacturers brass while still being enough of a tight chamber. I don't know why the fuck he went 1.455"...

 

[ma smith]

That's max cartridge drawing. The min chamber drawing headspace is 1.4636-1.4736.

The question was originally about brass sizing, and the spec for cartridge (ie, brass) is max (published) ± tolerance. so the data as shown is relevant. The tolerance is shown in the highlighted area as -.007 ("minus up to 7 thou" vs Max)

 

[ma smith]

Perfect, thank you guys. I'm just gonna have him do 1.460" then, that should be enough to chamber any lapua brass and other manufacturers brass while still being enough of a tight chamber. I don't know why the fuck he went 1.455"...

The chamber technically needs to chamber 1.460 brass, but the chamber itself would be slighlty above brass size... i believe was the point raised by post #47. If I'm readin the print correctly, the min-spec on the chamber calls for ±1.463 to 1.464 (more accurately, 1.4636 as published).

(@TheOfficeT-Rex please double check my logic).