I can't get any serious, consistent accuracy out of my 224 Valkyrie WOA with a 23" Krieger 7"twist bbl. Will the new 22 ARC be a cartridge?
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Why is the 224 Valkyrie so difficult?
- Thread starter Iron Worker
- Start date
I it your only precision gas gun? Almost every issue with gas guns is due to not driving the rifle properly. They aren't forgiving like bolt rifles.
Similar issue with larger .580 bolt face magnums. Its almost never the rifle or ammo.
Similar issue with larger .580 bolt face magnums. Its almost never the rifle or ammo.
Watch the Hornady podcast on the 22 ARC. They talk about the 224 being one of the worst cartridges they have had to get good accurate loads. The reason for the 22ARC was made
I built a 224V shortly after the cartridge came out, but had already developed a questionable rep - I am an experienced handloader and load tuner and didn't mind a challenge. My 224V is AR-15 based, and sports a SS 4-groove heavy contour pre-chambered 20" Kreiger 6.5T, and is a solid build (image). I spent many, many hours loading different bullets, powders, powder charges, seating depths etc. with unacceptable precision (I will only accept excellent precision). I, like many others, was eventually able to develop very good shooting loads, but only after MUCH more effort than usual. My precision load is not typical of others that have shared their working loads, and be warned, I don't give a rat's rear about SD's or MV's, just 5-shot group size on a target.
My precision load is 25.4 gr. H4350 (yes - H4350) using a moly-coated 90gr. SMK in fully prepped Starline brass. Another good load is 23.4gr. Varget with a 77gr. moly SMK (but why bother? my .223 Wylde's shoots 77SMK's with excellent precision). Use of precision loading techniques are a must. These two loads both work for me BUT: I had to cut out the front of my magazines to get a 2.338" COAL for the 90gr. load to achieve good precision. Nothing I did with either 88gr. ELD's or 90gr. SMK's worked until the bullet was loaded longer.
Some other factors:
1) Use the minimum neck tension required to hold the bullet firmly. (BTW - I find this works for virtually all cartridges.)
2) My rifle is only capable of precision when the BCG and bolt are clean and the bolt is free moving and lightly lubricated. If the BCG and bolt get gummed up, precision is gone.
3) This cartridge, with its fast-twist barrel and the heavier bullets, really wants to twist/torque the rifle upon firing. I use a homemade bipod with a wide stance to help control rifle jump and twist. (Image below shows normal and wide-stance bipods.)
Personally, and I've said this before, I believe this cartridge was designed on a bar napkin on a Friday night well into Happy Hour (in a bar close to the Federal office). I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone, and especially anyone who is not an experienced and determined handloader. When this barrel goes south, I'll be moving to a 6ARC or close cousin, perhaps even a 6BR, to get the BC of a 105 Hybrid in a round that will fit in a normal AR-15 mag.
My precision load is 25.4 gr. H4350 (yes - H4350) using a moly-coated 90gr. SMK in fully prepped Starline brass. Another good load is 23.4gr. Varget with a 77gr. moly SMK (but why bother? my .223 Wylde's shoots 77SMK's with excellent precision). Use of precision loading techniques are a must. These two loads both work for me BUT: I had to cut out the front of my magazines to get a 2.338" COAL for the 90gr. load to achieve good precision. Nothing I did with either 88gr. ELD's or 90gr. SMK's worked until the bullet was loaded longer.
Some other factors:
1) Use the minimum neck tension required to hold the bullet firmly. (BTW - I find this works for virtually all cartridges.)
2) My rifle is only capable of precision when the BCG and bolt are clean and the bolt is free moving and lightly lubricated. If the BCG and bolt get gummed up, precision is gone.
3) This cartridge, with its fast-twist barrel and the heavier bullets, really wants to twist/torque the rifle upon firing. I use a homemade bipod with a wide stance to help control rifle jump and twist. (Image below shows normal and wide-stance bipods.)
Personally, and I've said this before, I believe this cartridge was designed on a bar napkin on a Friday night well into Happy Hour (in a bar close to the Federal office). I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone, and especially anyone who is not an experienced and determined handloader. When this barrel goes south, I'll be moving to a 6ARC or close cousin, perhaps even a 6BR, to get the BC of a 105 Hybrid in a round that will fit in a normal AR-15 mag.
My point was that I just grew weary of trying to get good results, and lost interest ... went to play with other toys. Sold all the 224-V stuff and spent it on 300-BLK and 6.5-CM ... which covered both ends of what I had gotten the 224-V to do. My sense is that for every guy that says "I love my 224-Valkyrie" ... there are 10 guys that can't make it shoot straight no matter how hard they try.
That is a fascinating post. ThanksI built a 224V shortly after the cartridge came out, but had already developed a questionable rep - I am an experienced handloader and load tuner and didn't mind a challenge. My 224V is AR-15 based, and sports a SS 4-groove heavy contour pre-chambered 20" Kreiger 6.5T, and is a solid build (image). I spent many, many hours loading different bullets, powders, powder charges, seating depths etc. with unacceptable precision (I will only accept excellent precision). I, like many others, was eventually able to develop very good shooting loads, but only after MUCH more effort than usual. My precision load is not typical of others that have shared their working loads, and be warned, I don't give a rat's rear about SD's or MV's, just 5-shot group size on a target.
My precision load is 25.4 gr. H4350 (yes - H4350) using a moly-coated 90gr. SMK in fully prepped Starline brass. Another good load is 23.4gr. Varget with a 77gr. moly SMK (but why bother? my .223 Wylde's shoots 77SMK's with excellent precision). Use of precision loading techniques are a must. These two loads both work for me BUT: I had to cut out the front of my magazines to get a 2.338" COAL for the 90gr. load to achieve good precision. Nothing I did with either 88gr. ELD's or 90gr. SMK's worked until the bullet was loaded longer.
Some other factors:
1) Use the minimum neck tension required to hold the bullet firmly. (BTW - I find this works for virtually all cartridges.)
2) My rifle is only capable of precision when the BCG and bolt are clean and the bolt is free moving and lightly lubricated. If the BCG and bolt get gummed up, precision is gone.
3) This cartridge, with its fast-twist barrel and the heavier bullets, really wants to twist/torque the rifle upon firing. I use a homemade bipod with a wide stance to help control rifle jump and twist. (Image below shows normal and wide-stance bipods.)
Personally, and I've said this before, I believe this cartridge was designed on a bar napkin on a Friday night well into Happy Hour (in a bar close to the Federal office). I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone, and especially anyone who is not an experienced and determined handloader. When this barrel goes south, I'll be moving to a 6ARC or close cousin, perhaps even a 6BR, to get the BC of a 105 Hybrid in a round that will fit in a normal AR-15 mag.
I really enjoy my 224 Valkery but decided early on after hearing issues with the 1-7 twist. I went with a 1-6.5 Bartlin ar15 24 in barrel. Shoots very well with the 88 eld. Shoot 3/4 moa ALL day long as long I do my part.
I picked up a CMMG valkyrie upper clearanced when the problems with the cartridge were surfacing. Tried 88 elds and h4350 and never looked back. It's been one of the most accurate ars I've had the pleasure of running. The 24" barrel helps the 1 in 7 twist issue. It has been a great coyote gun and long distance trainer for the kids. Maybe I got lucky but that upper has a permanent home.
I had 6gt case sitting around and had a thought of if the 22gt can fit in a AR15. Well they DO https://sdrifles.com/22-gt-ar15/
To heck with the 22 ARC and Valkyrie. Move on up to this baby.
To heck with the 22 ARC and Valkyrie. Move on up to this baby.
I am not sure why peopel have had so much trouble with Valkirye. I bet probably number one is peopel who think if they can shoot a bolt action they can shoot a semiautomatic. Then there is also what barrel. People like to buy a bargain bin barrel then complain when it's not a laser. There are also those situations where someone bangs their head trying the same bullet or powder over and over when the barrel is clearly saying try something else.
Mine didn't want to shoot the 70rdfs I have. Nothing I own has wanted to shoot them though. Makes me think it's the bullets and not the gun. 60 sierra hp it shoots great.
Mine didn't want to shoot the 70rdfs I have. Nothing I own has wanted to shoot them though. Makes me think it's the bullets and not the gun. 60 sierra hp it shoots great.
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I had trouble with the 224 Valkyrie, so I dissassembled, went back and started over. Different, barrel 6.5 twist, checked out the, as offered, Areo Precision upper ...it needed attention. Center the bolt carrier group, made a huge difference with the 224 Valkyrie, more than any other caliber, also glue in with green bearing sleeve High Temperature loctite. Wax the reciever for easy disassembly. I know its easy for me to do, cause I have machine shop and machine tools, but every caliber bottle neck cartridge can be .5" shooter 5 shot grouper in the AR platform. But sometimes ya gotta do more than just assemble parts. Start with a quality barrel, usually expensive, build your own. That's how I do it.
Now the 224 Valkyrie shoots to my expectations.
Now the 224 Valkyrie shoots to my expectations.
Attachments
Well, working with the 6 ARC has been reminiscent of the torture to get the Valkyrie to shoot. Hornady is a marketing company , not an accuracy outfit. If it sells -sell it.I built a 224V shortly after the cartridge came out, but had already developed a questionable rep - I am an experienced handloader and load tuner and didn't mind a challenge. My 224V is AR-15 based, and sports a SS 4-groove heavy contour pre-chambered 20" Kreiger 6.5T, and is a solid build (image). I spent many, many hours loading different bullets, powders, powder charges, seating depths etc. with unacceptable precision (I will only accept excellent precision). I, like many others, was eventually able to develop very good shooting loads, but only after MUCH more effort than usual. My precision load is not typical of others that have shared their working loads, and be warned, I don't give a rat's rear about SD's or MV's, just 5-shot group size on a target.
My precision load is 25.4 gr. H4350 (yes - H4350) using a moly-coated 90gr. SMK in fully prepped Starline brass. Another good load is 23.4gr. Varget with a 77gr. moly SMK (but why bother? my .223 Wylde's shoots 77SMK's with excellent precision). Use of precision loading techniques are a must. These two loads both work for me BUT: I had to cut out the front of my magazines to get a 2.338" COAL for the 90gr. load to achieve good precision. Nothing I did with either 88gr. ELD's or 90gr. SMK's worked until the bullet was loaded longer.
Some other factors:
1) Use the minimum neck tension required to hold the bullet firmly. (BTW - I find this works for virtually all cartridges.)
2) My rifle is only capable of precision when the BCG and bolt are clean and the bolt is free moving and lightly lubricated. If the BCG and bolt get gummed up, precision is gone.
3) This cartridge, with its fast-twist barrel and the heavier bullets, really wants to twist/torque the rifle upon firing. I use a homemade bipod with a wide stance to help control rifle jump and twist. (Image below shows normal and wide-stance bipods.)
Personally, and I've said this before, I believe this cartridge was designed on a bar napkin on a Friday night well into Happy Hour (in a bar close to the Federal office). I would not recommend this cartridge to anyone, and especially anyone who is not an experienced and determined handloader. When this barrel goes south, I'll be moving to a 6ARC or close cousin, perhaps even a 6BR, to get the BC of a 105 Hybrid in a round that will fit in a normal AR-15 mag.
Haven’t been on this forum in a year… and I’m late the the Valkyrie party. This post popped up when I googled a Valkyrie question and is just under a year old so figured I’d add my two cents in case anybody cares if they’re even still listening. Looks like most people already left the Valkyrie party and there’s still cold beer in the fridge!
I generally don’t go off group size. The theory I buy into is that there’s an elliptical circle on the target and the bullet can land anywhere in. ES and SD are the representation of how big that elliptical is. “Flyers” from shots I called good aren’t really flyers, it’s just a bullet that landed somewhere else in that elliptical circle of possibilities with no reason other than to mess with my mind. I go off of SD’s because the difference between a load averaging 2730 fps using 10-shot sample with an ES of 15 (SD <5) will provide a difference of 5.2 inches at 1,000 yards. Whereas a load with an average velocity of 2,784 fps with 10-shot ES of 46 (SD 14.3) will provide a difference of 14” of elevation at 1,000 yards. So even if my group size with the 2730 fps load is 1.4” at 100 yards, that’s still an impact pattern of 19.2” on a 14” X 20” steel silhouette target at 1,000 yards. The 2784 fps load may give a group size of say 0.75” at 100 yards, but with a 10-shot SD of 14.3, the impact pattern would theoretically be 21.5” on a 14” X 20” steel target at 1,000 yards. The group size that I shoot includes the biggest and sloppiest variable into the equation (ME!) and may not be the best representation of the most accurate load. If I had the tooling, skills, and ability of Major Hide, I would probably have a different viewpoint.
I bought a White Oak Precision (24” Kreiger with 1:6.5T) upper in 2020, pinned it to a lower with PRS stock and SSA-E trigger and let it collect dust. Last year pulled it out, threw a Leupold 5-25X on it, Atlas bipod, and bubble level and worked on a load when I could fit it in my schedule. Last weekend I was finally able to take it out and try to let her stretch her legs. Walked from 600 to 1,000 yard targets and 1,000 yard shots started to get boringly easy after I got on target and was hitting 5 out of 5, but it was a beautiful fall day, winds were 3-5 mph, and those targets had "hit lights" that flashed when you hit the steel. About the 95th round or so, I started getting the annoying feed issues from getting dirty, so popped a few rounds towards the 1,100 and 1,200 yard targets but couldn’t tell if I was hitting as there were no hit lights, nor tell where I was missing due to lack of "dust poofs" from vegetation and a sun that started hiding behind clouds. Even popped a few off at the 1,300 yard target but doubt I was getting close. Not that it means anything when it comes to anybody else’s rifle, but I was shooting 88gr ELD-M’s set on top of 1639mg (+/- 1mg) BL-C(2) and using Winchester 5.56 primers with a heavy Lee Factory crimp to prevent bullet setback/forward movement from recoil and chambering. 677 rounds through the rifle so far and approaching the end of the batch of virgin starline brass so will start in on actual "re"-loads soon.
I generally don’t go off group size. The theory I buy into is that there’s an elliptical circle on the target and the bullet can land anywhere in. ES and SD are the representation of how big that elliptical is. “Flyers” from shots I called good aren’t really flyers, it’s just a bullet that landed somewhere else in that elliptical circle of possibilities with no reason other than to mess with my mind. I go off of SD’s because the difference between a load averaging 2730 fps using 10-shot sample with an ES of 15 (SD <5) will provide a difference of 5.2 inches at 1,000 yards. Whereas a load with an average velocity of 2,784 fps with 10-shot ES of 46 (SD 14.3) will provide a difference of 14” of elevation at 1,000 yards. So even if my group size with the 2730 fps load is 1.4” at 100 yards, that’s still an impact pattern of 19.2” on a 14” X 20” steel silhouette target at 1,000 yards. The 2784 fps load may give a group size of say 0.75” at 100 yards, but with a 10-shot SD of 14.3, the impact pattern would theoretically be 21.5” on a 14” X 20” steel target at 1,000 yards. The group size that I shoot includes the biggest and sloppiest variable into the equation (ME!) and may not be the best representation of the most accurate load. If I had the tooling, skills, and ability of Major Hide, I would probably have a different viewpoint.
I bought a White Oak Precision (24” Kreiger with 1:6.5T) upper in 2020, pinned it to a lower with PRS stock and SSA-E trigger and let it collect dust. Last year pulled it out, threw a Leupold 5-25X on it, Atlas bipod, and bubble level and worked on a load when I could fit it in my schedule. Last weekend I was finally able to take it out and try to let her stretch her legs. Walked from 600 to 1,000 yard targets and 1,000 yard shots started to get boringly easy after I got on target and was hitting 5 out of 5, but it was a beautiful fall day, winds were 3-5 mph, and those targets had "hit lights" that flashed when you hit the steel. About the 95th round or so, I started getting the annoying feed issues from getting dirty, so popped a few rounds towards the 1,100 and 1,200 yard targets but couldn’t tell if I was hitting as there were no hit lights, nor tell where I was missing due to lack of "dust poofs" from vegetation and a sun that started hiding behind clouds. Even popped a few off at the 1,300 yard target but doubt I was getting close. Not that it means anything when it comes to anybody else’s rifle, but I was shooting 88gr ELD-M’s set on top of 1639mg (+/- 1mg) BL-C(2) and using Winchester 5.56 primers with a heavy Lee Factory crimp to prevent bullet setback/forward movement from recoil and chambering. 677 rounds through the rifle so far and approaching the end of the batch of virgin starline brass so will start in on actual "re"-loads soon.
You're definitely late to the 224 Valkyrie party. So late that you missed it. Lots of documentation here, but in short ... there are many of us that tried desperately, and with multiple rifles, barrels, and ammo instantiations ... and gave up on it. After two rifles, three barrels, and a ton of load development, I gave my last attempt to my son, who just shoots for fun and doesn't care about competing or group sizes. Save your self the heartache and wasted materials, and give it away to someone that just sprays bullets and doesn't care about accuracy at distance, or close-in group sizes. That's my advice ... FWIW.
Thanks for the reply, your response is kind of what I was expecting. I guess I’ll pick through information and not expect to find any current discussions (I was surprised I found this discussion with a date stamp in 2024).
No reason for me to sell/give away, but I can see why it was abandoned. I bought it because I go to a shooting weekend once a year with friends and I wanted to see what I could do with an autoloader at 1,000 yards and the marketing for the Valkyrie at the time said it can do that before that got dwarfed by the reports I started to see after that of people not being happy with the round. My experience with autoloaders was limited to shorter distances maxing out at 600 yards in Service Rifle CMP competitions years ago when I was active duty. Since it’s met the basic 1,000 yard goal, I’m passed the heartache stage and into the “what else can I do with it” stage. I’m going to start with actually shooting for group size at 200 yards, seeing what effect shooting from a magazine and a bob sled has on my SD’s, and effect of temperature on velocity since so many people “look down” on BL-C(2) as an inaccurate powder due to temp sensitivity (I was lucky and the temps between load development and last week’s goal testing were within 10-15 degrees). If RL17 ever comes back in stock at my usual places, I might play around with that 95gr SMK.
As I tell my crew at work, even a failed test is a successful test if you can gather useful data out of it. Although my Valkyrie is successful in the sense it met my basic 1,000 yard goal, I’ve gained the experience of loading to the milligram, played with the effect of crimping rounds (if anybody else is wondering, crimping had a positive effect for me, but adding a cannelure to the bullet reduced the benefit), upgraded some of my old reloading tools, and built a workable jig for scope and bubble level mounting/alignment I can use inside my house.
I’ll continue to play around with this cartridge as life allows to see what else I can do with it. Maybe I’ll reach the end of barrel life before they stop producing brass for it. Maybe I won’t. Maybe someone else is still playing around with the round and wants to compare notes, maybe not. If it wasn’t challenging, it would have been boring and I wouldn’t have learned from it.
Again, thanks for the reply. Sounds like I can expect this thread to die out like others in deafening silence.
No reason for me to sell/give away, but I can see why it was abandoned. I bought it because I go to a shooting weekend once a year with friends and I wanted to see what I could do with an autoloader at 1,000 yards and the marketing for the Valkyrie at the time said it can do that before that got dwarfed by the reports I started to see after that of people not being happy with the round. My experience with autoloaders was limited to shorter distances maxing out at 600 yards in Service Rifle CMP competitions years ago when I was active duty. Since it’s met the basic 1,000 yard goal, I’m passed the heartache stage and into the “what else can I do with it” stage. I’m going to start with actually shooting for group size at 200 yards, seeing what effect shooting from a magazine and a bob sled has on my SD’s, and effect of temperature on velocity since so many people “look down” on BL-C(2) as an inaccurate powder due to temp sensitivity (I was lucky and the temps between load development and last week’s goal testing were within 10-15 degrees). If RL17 ever comes back in stock at my usual places, I might play around with that 95gr SMK.
As I tell my crew at work, even a failed test is a successful test if you can gather useful data out of it. Although my Valkyrie is successful in the sense it met my basic 1,000 yard goal, I’ve gained the experience of loading to the milligram, played with the effect of crimping rounds (if anybody else is wondering, crimping had a positive effect for me, but adding a cannelure to the bullet reduced the benefit), upgraded some of my old reloading tools, and built a workable jig for scope and bubble level mounting/alignment I can use inside my house.
I’ll continue to play around with this cartridge as life allows to see what else I can do with it. Maybe I’ll reach the end of barrel life before they stop producing brass for it. Maybe I won’t. Maybe someone else is still playing around with the round and wants to compare notes, maybe not. If it wasn’t challenging, it would have been boring and I wouldn’t have learned from it.
Again, thanks for the reply. Sounds like I can expect this thread to die out like others in deafening silence.
You are one of the few that I have read about having issues with the 6ARC. What barrel are you using?
In that "I wish 224-V worked for me" space, I've learned that my 6.5-CM AR10 from LWRCI is an awesome solution with great load development results and solid accuracy out to 1,000 and beyond. When I want to hit a mile target, I get out my Barrett MRAD with a 300-PRC or 300-NM barrel, and hit that mile target all day long. For everything closer, 6.5-CM works great, and in my local gas-gun competitions, it's so good that it's almost not fair.
