Rifle Scopes Why is the schm. Bender pm2 losing popularity?

[chevytruck_83]

A lot of friends ask me what’s the best scope for long range. I typically tell them you can’t go wrong with the new razor. The kahles 624i the Nightforce BEAST or Bender pm2. I personally like the kahles but at the top it’s as much what appeals to you. I never know what to tell them when they ask about the pm2. I just say it’s a fantastic scope that would be on most of the shooters rifles if nobody was sponsored. Is that a fair statement or is there something else I’m missing?

 

[gr8fuldoug]

S&B scopes are excellent scopes. Actually of the top tier scopes the two brands we have been selling more of then ever before are Kahles and S&B. Don't know if you've seen our latest S&B sale post, however,
Here's an example, those looking for Schmidt & Bender:

Part Number Description

666-911-972-G8-E8 5-45x56 PMII High Power LP P4F cm ccw Black Normally $5,400.00 Reduced to $4,399.99

667-911-992-F3-F1 3-20x50/P4FMOA 1/4 ccw DT LT Ultra Short Black Normally $3,800.00 Reduced to $3,099.99

878-911-982-A5-A5 12-50X56/P4FMOA 1/4 CCW Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

669-911-972-G6-A8 3-27x56/P4F cm ccw .340 Black Normally $4,900.00 Reduced to $3,699.99

669-911-972-B2-A8 3-27x56 PMII High Power LP P4F cm ccw 24 mil normally $4,900.00 Reduced to $3,999.99

669-911-972-B8-B4 3-27x56 PM II High Power LP P4F cm cw Normally $4,900.00 Reduced to $3,999.99

677-945-972-B2-A8 5-25x56 PM II LP P4FL 1cm ccw LT RAL8000 Normally $3,575.00 Reduced to $2,949.99

677-945-982-B3-A9 5-25X56/P4FMOA 1/4 CCW RAL8000 Normally $3,575.00 Reduced to $2,949.99

677-911-982-91-66 5-25x56 PM II LP P4FL-MOA 1/4 CW DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

677-911-972-B8-B4 5-25x56 PM II LP P4FL cm cw LT Black Normally $3,500.00 Reduced to $2,949.99

677-911-995-A8-A2 5-25x56 PMII LP 2.BE P4FL2-MOA 1/4 ccw DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

677-911-972-94-67 5-25x56 PM II LP P4FL cm cw DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

677-911-982-A8-A2 5-25x56/P4F 1/4 ccw DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

677-911-972-90-68 5-25x56/P4F cm ccw DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

677-911-962-90-68 5-25x56/Klein cm ccw DT Normally $3,200.00 Reduced to $2,699.99

644-911-762-98-74A20 3-12X50/P4 1/4 LP Normally $3,080.00 Reduced to $2,499.99

755-911-72D 4-16X56/D7 POSICON POLAR T96 Normally $2,726.20 Reduced to $2,199.99

755-911-72D-E4-03 4-16X56/D7 CM CW BDC POLAR Normally $3,021.00 Reduced to $2,499.99

755-911-712-F8-E1 4-16x56/L7 1/4 ccw Polar T96 Normally $3,021.00 Reduced to $2,499.99

756-911-72D-E4-03 3-12x54 Polar T96 2.BE D7 cm cw BDC Normally $2,700.00 reduced to $2,299.99

845-811-862-30-05A02 3-12x42/P3 Klassik Normally $2,447.16 Reduced to $1,799.99

645-811-482-05-05-A02 3-12X42/L3 Normally $2,447.16 reduced to $1,799.99

644-811-732-30-05A02 3-12X50/L7 BDC Normally $2,612.00 Reduced to $1,799.99

847-811-862-30-08A23 4-16x50/P3 Precision Hunter with external BDC Normally $2,497.00 Reduced to $1,999.99

847-811-702-08-08A02 4-16x50/7 Normally $2,300.00 Reduced to $1,799.99

932-B11-422 6x42/9 Normally 1,294.00 Reduced to $999.99

952-B11-704 2.5-10x Normally $2,068.00 Reduced to $1,499.99

Please call discuss what would be best for you.
Thanks

Thank you for your continued support.
If there is anything else we can assist you with please let me know.
Doug
Camera Land
720 Old Bethpage Rd
Old Bethpage NY 11804
516-217-1000
Please visit our website @ www.cameralandny.com

 

[steve123]

Theirs much more competition in the top tier tactical scope realm than there was years ago. FFP - it used to be S&B or USO. I've had both, S&B easily won outright.

Then, until the beginning of this year, S&B was getting so expensive that people looked to other Co's for the simple reason a $3500 scope was too much of a financial sacrifice. S&B milked it as long as they could but had to step up or loose sales.

It didn't help when S&B changed their warranty to 2 years for a period of time, while other Co's offered lifetime warranties.

Also other Co's came up with superior, or at least, more preferred tree reticles.

Many of us have found out that the job gets done with scopes costing half as much or even less than that. I used to change around my S&B's from the tactical rifles onto my air rifles and 22rf's so I could have close focus and the H59 reticle, it was a PITA. For the most part I don't need to anymore, some cheap Athlon scopes have filled that niche because of their particular feature set.

If $3000 was pocket change to me I'd put a S&B on every rifle I own or would own, lol, and in this fantasy I could think of all kinds of them.

 

[Rob01]

Not really a true statement with today's scopes. I started using S&B 5-25s in 2006 in matches and they are very good scopes but in the past 5-7 years the high end scope market has blown up and S&B bumped their prices up and lost some of their slice of the pie with higher prices and nothing really new to offer people. They recently started dropping the prices on some of the 5-25s to start to compete again but I believe it's too little too late. Lots of good scopes in the high end market now giving shooters better reticles and features while still having great glass and tracking. S&B wouldn't be on the top of my list now.

 

[Glassaholic]

Steve and Rob have already answered appropriately. Schmidt & Bender are still top tier scopes, some of their designs are "old" compared to what some other manufacturers are offering today, but Schmidt basically pioneered the 5-25 craze of which most others have followed. I have just two complaints for Schmidt & Bender, I don't like their illumination tumor and would prefer it to be inline with the parallax like just about everyone else does now and even though they have a large offering of reticle choices I'm not really thrilled with any of them, the new Mil-LRR reticle is intriguing but wondering if it might be too busy. What I'd like to see from Schmidt is a new PM III line of scopes but not sure when that will happen, and another issue I have with Schmidt is they take so darn long to bring things to market, for example, the aforementioned Mil-LRR reticle was announced a year ago but we still do not have scopes on the market with it. The folks at Schmidt are innovators, always pushing the limits and they excel at bringing together the best of the best in most every scope they make, this is what makes them highly sought after and at the top of most everyone's list.

 

[loudandproud]

I never liked the extreme tunneling at low magnification. They're nice and I wouldn't turn one down but the Kahles is better bang for the buck.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[Lowlight]

How is 1.5x extreme tunneling and how often are you shooting below 8x ? Really, 99% never go below 10x let alone down to 5x... the tunneling is very limited and was addressed in many of the scopes after the original PMII, you can easily buy a PMII with no tunneling at all.

The adjustments in price have seen a lot more people revisit the S&B line. You see a lot more them now than just 2 years ago.

 

[steve123]

I painted my Mom's closet shelves 'once", she didn't like the slight stippling the roller made on them, though it looked better than brush marks IMO. I said, Mom, your shoes will be on top of the shelves and it looks fine anyway. Her responce was, I know the stippling is there and it bothers me. LOL

 

[LastShot300]

No matter what, S&B is a tier 1 scope, and will continue to be. Hard to beat the glass and overall quality. There are other great scopes to shop around, but that doesn't mean S&B is "old" or whatever.

 

[hk dave]

Like others have said, I think it was simply a cost thing. A few years back when the 5-25 PMII went up to $3500-4000, people started looking elsewhere.

Now with their new aggressive pricing structure, they're on the radar again. The quality is still at the very top, nothing has changed except the pricing.

I picked up another 5-25 PMII not too long ago for less than $2500. Looks and behaves exactly like another I purchased a couple years back for $3300.

 

[IntoTransonic]

Schmidt & Bender is and will remain high on the scope food chain. If price is refective of quality, then S&B is definitely a higher tiered product. The fact remains, S&B is a great scope with absolutely great feature and benefits.

I, typically, shoot at 17-19 power, so tunneling has never been a issue nor have I ever thought about it.

I have two S&B scopes and my favorite is my 340 click 3-27x56. Perfect tracking and I baby that thing like its my own child. In my opinion, S&B has few equals but there is a reason for competition..... The existence of S&B has made other competitors better, and that is good for our sport. You have options to suit each persons needs.
Good shooting
Chris Schmidt

 

[JayOpticspecialist]

Schmidt & Bender make a great rifle scope, no doubt about it, but they have had some problems in the last few years

-listening and hearing the U.S. market = reticle and feature design wasn't up to par with the competition

-eroding warranty - warranty went from life time to 2 years, it's back up to 20 but that change pissed a bunch of loyal customers off and swayed them

-rising prices and lack of margin - scopes went from avg cost of 3200 to 4200 and higher. every year for a couple of years there was a 20 % increase. it made it difficult on customers and the dealer base to continue using the scopes and gave other manufactures room to get into that premium market.

-lack of dealer support - talk to any dealer, support hasn't historically been there, i'm confident they are trying to change that, but we shall see. people tend to push brands that support them.

I love the brand as a user and I built significant business on the dealer level. I still use S&B scopes, as a matter of fact i'm looking at one for a hunting rifle, they are fine scopes, they just need to work hear to recapture who they were vs who they are now.

 

[chevytruck_83]

Sounds like I may have done good going with the kahles 624i with msr-k reticle a couple years ago. I know I’m happy with it. I am a sucker for the latest greatest though so I’m always second guessing myself.

 

[jonthomps]

Like others have said, I think it was simply a cost thing. A few years back when the 5-25 PMII went up to $3500-4000, people started looking elsewhere.

Now with their new aggressive pricing structure, they're on the radar again. The quality is still at the very top, nothing has changed except the pricing.

I picked up another 5-25 PMII not too long ago for less than $2500. Looks and behaves exactly like another I purchased a couple years back for $3300.

^^^ This. Two things happened: first, S&B priced themselves out of the market while, second, other companies began to offer comparable scopes for much less.

 

[MATADOR]

As far as popularity on this forum (US market), the above stated reasons. However, globally, it's not even close to losing ground.

 

[davere]

The one thing I keep thinking about S&B is that they need to nut up and design a solid "Christmas tree" style reticle that they own. You can buy a PMII w/ a Horus reticle, but it's a $4k+ optic at that point, still, last time I looked. If S&B had a reticle you could buy without that large premium for the Horus reticle, I would think they'd be positioned better to reclaim market share.

Optically, they're the best scope I've looked through (though I haven't by far looked through everything out there). But, the difference is relatively small vs. what's on the market now, which is obviously not how it always was.

 

[surgeon260]

They aren't losing popularity with me. I bought two S&B 5-25s in the last year. Both for around $2300 new from a reputable seller. Try finding an ATACR for that price.

S&B definitely suffered from pricing themselves out of the market. But recently they have really responded by enabling some incredible price reduction. $2300 for a PMII 5-25 is pretty amazing value in my book compared to other high end optics.

 

[flyright]

For my last purchase I was really torn between an S&B and ATACR 5-25x56. Prices were close enough and I had a chance to play with both for a while. I ended up going with NF just because I liked the glass, feel and warranty better. There were many other choices at that price and I don't believe I'd have been unhappy with any of them. Just more choices these days and like someone said - that's a good thing.

 

[stradibarrius]

They aren't losing popularity with me. I bought two S&B 5-25s in the last year. Both for around $2300 new from a reputable seller. Try finding an ATACR for that price.

S&B definitely suffered from pricing themselves out of the market. But recently they have really responded by enabling some incredible price reduction. $2300 for a PMII 5-25 is pretty amazing value in my book compared to other high end optics.

Where did you get that deal?

 

[Basher]

Where did you get that deal?

I was just wondering that myself...

 

[CSTactical]

I love S&B scopes and I still run one but I really like my Kahles K624i SKMR3 and Minox 5-25x56mm MR4. Do not get me wrong S&B are great scopes and I will do the job, Like others have said there are a lot more options.

 

[brutus1776]

Bump for the 2300$ SB deal.....

 

[spife7980]

It was a bunch of models in the, imo, less favorable reticles. Mile high may have some, I think eurooptic may. Not sure what the vendors could offer on a call in price.

 

[surgeon260]

I got that deal from Optics Planet (and EuroOptic will match anyone else's deal). Mile High also has great deals, unless you live in CO like me. The Optics Planet deal was for the mil double turn 5-25 with P4F and Gen II XR reticles. Not unfavorable reticles in my opinion; I really like the Gen II XR. I don't think you can get sub $2300 at the moment, but the big vendors run deals all the time. Keep an eye out. I will try to post on here next time I see a big S&B sale.

 

[RollinCoal11]

I'm in the market for a S&B 3-27. Did they change their warranty? When I bought my last S&B they had a lifetime warranty. What is it now ?

 

[spife7980]

2395 for the FFP, 2250 for a second focal plane https://www.milehighshooting.com/schmidt-bender-677-911-972-90-68-pmii-5-25x56mm-p4lf-dt-ccw/

 

[XTREM HTR16]

I’m a hunter and just picked up a PMII 3-12x50 P3 reticle off eBay for a good price. I don’t see many longer range hunting scopes in that category, with 13 mils of single turret elevation.
And the PMII 10x42 is bombproof.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I bought 2 last year a 5x25 and 3x27 and mat look to pick up 1 more this year. I also have Kahles and Vortex but the S&B just look better to my eye.

 

[ironsight1000yard]

my problem with s&b is that there are too many models. I saw the deal at Optics Planet a while back but did not had enough time to do search.
Got the razor gen 2 in stead

 

[Smokyred]

my problem with s&b is that there are too many models. I saw the deal at Optics Planet a while back but did not had enough time to do search.
Got the razor gen 2 in stead

That's my problem too. Too many choices, not sure what to get when sales come up!

Dave

 

[nexusfire]

Love me some pm2 with gen 2xr. S&B is still the standard imo