why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

[black_ump]

so all over the place on the net and in pereson i see quad rails with lights and lasers i see lights and laser units and they are all the rage, I have a light for my usc/ump and have though about how a laser plays a part in both cqb and other types of combat.

how ever the more i think about it the more it seems like a laser could be a distraction more then a help, now i can see how an ir laser could be cool but a normal laser, i would find my self looking at where the dot is then i would be hitting the target, could just be me.

just looking to see what all the talk is about are they worth it and if so yes and if not why

 

[marduk185]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

lasers are hyped garbage that have no place except ir with nvg's as you already mention. problem withthem is in dark environ where theyre supposed to be useful, you cant id targets without a light. if you have a light, you can use your irons. sooo...?

 

[Richard Clark]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Ya you are right.

The idea is that you don't need to aim, but fire more instinctively. However in daylight they are worthless and that is when most ranges are open.

As I have not seen combat I cannot say if it as viable as a movie may say it is. I will leave that to the experts.

 

[ChrisF]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Actually , I am after a well built compact day laser like the aimpoint model , to stick on a hunting rifle , to use at CQB ranges .

I cannot use a red dot micro sight due to the fact its blurry as they all donot have a dioptler focus , so in my case a due to my non master eye being almost perfect , a projected laser dot would mean I could use my left eye & it also means I could fire from the hip as well as shoulder .


I donot see it happening any time soon thro



Later Chris

 

[black_ump]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

thanks for the insight keep it comming, ya i have experiance with lasers other then messging with them at gunshows and i used to have a laser devices blast on my usp, it was nice to look at the dot but when some one brakes in my house the dot is the last thing i want to have my eye on

 

[Jong]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

In the military almost all IR lasers have an IR floodlight that accompanies it so you can id your targets at night.

 

[christian77]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Your grammar is so poor, I'll just assume that English is your second or third language. Now then...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I have a light for my usc/ump and have though about how a laser plays a part in both cqb and other types of combat...how ever the more i think about it the more it seems like a laser could be a distraction more then a help, now i can see how an ir laser could be cool but a normal laser, i would find my self looking at where the dot is then i would be hitting the target, could just be me.</div></div>
1. Yes, it is just you.

2. Visible lasers serve a viable purpose.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lasers are hyped garbage that have no place except ir with nvg's as you already mention. problem withthem is in dark environ where theyre supposed to be useful, you cant id targets without a light. if you have a light, you can use your irons. sooo...?</div></div>
Another genius with no concept of modern technology.
I guess Insight was way off base when they developed the most widely fielded laser in the military today: PEQ15 ATPIAL (IR laser, IR flood & <span style="text-decoration: underline">VIS laser</span>)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However in daylight they are worthless...As I have not seen combat I cannot say...</div></div>
I have put the breaks on many a Middle Eastern monkey with a visible laser in broad daylight.

 

[42769vette]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

i think a quality laser is a great BACKUP site. to many folks use it as a primary and thats not what it was designed for. if a laser is the only sight you pratice with and the battery dies you are screwed. but i think they are great in a lowlight situation if you get a good one. ive had the cheep 100 dollar lasers and they are worthless. the ct lasers are the brightest ive tried so far

 

[drmarc]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I have put the breaks on many a Middle Eastern monkey with a visible laser in broad daylight.
</div></div>

 

[birddog762]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

as usual DK is on the money. just like racking the slide on a 12ga , visible is a deterent.

 

[Helidonna]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Before lasers was it not the Cold Steel of a bayonet that was used to intimidate? I agree that there is some merit in the use of these tools and to dismiss them all together is ones right but for me I'll take a diffrent path. Just my 2 cents worth and with todays economy it ain't worth the paper it's printed on...

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Visible lasers also make it a tad bit easier to aim around a shield.

Add to that the fact that every major weapon light manufacturer make a light/laser combo unit. You can ID your target as well as use the pretty dot.

I will also say a quality laser is FAR from useless and I have yet to have a problem seeing one one attached to my Taser during the day. It is a great deterrent.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: birddog762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just like racking the slide on a 12ga , visible is a deterent. </div></div>

OMG, don't get that shit started. If your shotgun has en empty chamber when you approach a target all you have proven is that you are a moron and you better hope the guy you are approaching isn't armed.

 

[Arch]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

It was the Cold Steel. And I agree that their is some good usage for these tools. I do not have much experience with shooting with them, but quite a bit with marking.

I remember taking part in a conference that discussed the idea of laser weaponry as part of the shaping operations in battlefield prep. Not long afterward, the ICRC ('95 I believe) came out with it's rulings that disallowed blinding as inhumane (specifically, provisions 1 and 2). At one point in the conference, in my own forthright manner and as the junior man, I asked the obvious question that was likely in everyone else's mind but they were too skeert to voice it, "You are talking about blinding our enemies right?" The man doing the talking looked at me like I had just screamed, "I CAN FLY LIKE A CROW!"

He replied, "We do not use the B-Word."

Inhumane. I just love irony.

<span style="font-style: italic">KURTZ (dictates to tape)
"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders
won't allow them to write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "

Willard kills Kurtz with a machete, simultaneous the natives
sacrifice a water buffalo and kill it with their machetes.</span>

 

[ChickenLittle]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

What about that laser .38 'Coyote' Ruger of the gov's. I have marauding coons and coyotes eating my chickens at dusk and my cats too in broad daylight. They stand and look at us through a chain link fence and we back step back inside. Should I go for the laser version? Addl. $180 for the laser.

OR... maybe just a powerful pellet gun? Suggest? I'm not sure what I would do with the coyote or coon carcass. I live on solid rock, so burying it is out of the question. Thanks for any advice.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your grammar is so poor, I'll just assume that English is your second or third language. Now then...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I have a light for my usc/ump and have though about how a laser plays a part in both cqb and other types of combat...how ever the more i think about it the more it seems like a laser could be a distraction more then a help, now i can see how an ir laser could be cool but a normal laser, i would find my self looking at where the dot is then i would be hitting the target, could just be me.</div></div>
1. Yes, it is just you.

2. Visible lasers serve a viable purpose.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lasers are hyped garbage that have no place except ir with nvg's as you already mention. problem withthem is in dark environ where theyre supposed to be useful, you cant id targets without a light. if you have a light, you can use your irons. sooo...?</div></div>
Another genius with no concept of modern technology.
I guess Insight was way off base when they developed the most widely fielded laser in the military today: PEQ15 ATPIAL (IR laser, IR flood & <span style="text-decoration: underline">VIS laser</span>)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimsson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However in daylight they are worthless...As I have not seen combat I cannot say...</div></div>
I have put the breaks on many a Middle Eastern monkey with a visible laser in broad daylight.

</div></div>

wow, look whos calling who a genius, if you knew of what you speak youd be dangerous, the PEQ15's day laser is used to zero the IR laser, they are linked together for adjustment so you can zero your IR during the daytime.

if you ALLEDGEDLY took down zombies in the daytime deployed, more power to you, I USED MY SIGHTS, with amazing results!

 

[christian77]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wow, look whos calling who a genius, if you knew of what you speak youd be dangerous, the PEQ15's day laser is used to zero the IR laser, they are linked together for adjustment so you can zero your IR during the daytime.
if you ALLEDGEDLY took down zombies in the daytime deployed, more power to you, I USE MY SIGHTS</div></div>
The vis/ir laser are aligned on the same axis so you can zero both...hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all. Ever notice how the very first setting on a ATPIAL is VIS ONLY??? While it is on the same plane to zero...that isn't it's only function. Same applies to the DBAL & DBAL A2 with VIS only settings.

Point that was missed apparently is vis lasers have a place...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent)

Now your turn...

 

[marduk185]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

"OMG, don't get that shit started. If your shotgun has en empty chamber when you approach a target all you have proven is that you are a moron and you better hope the guy you are approaching isn't armed"

pretty much what i think when someone without night vision approaches with a laser on.
so far the best argument i hear for day lasers is riot shields. in any case...theyre not for me. ive tried several, even considered them as a training aid but in the end they just end up gathering dust. sorry if ive put some panties in a twist.

 

[Jong]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think a quality laser is a great BACKUP site. to many folks use it as a primary and thats not what it was designed for. if a laser is the only sight you pratice with and the battery dies you are screwed. but i think they are great in a lowlight situation if you get a good one. ive had the cheep 100 dollar lasers and they are worthless. the ct lasers are the brightest ive tried so far </div></div>

Are you serious? Do you know how much of the equipment that the military uses these days relies on batteries?

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At one point in the conference, in my own forthright manner and as the junior man, I asked the obvious question that was likely in everyone else's mind but they were too skeert to voice it, "You are talking about blinding our enemies right?" The man doing the talking looked at me like I had just screamed, "I CAN FLY LIKE A CROW!"

He replied, "We do not use the B-Word."

Inhumane. I just love irony.

<span style="font-style: italic">KURTZ (dictates to tape)
</span> </div></div>

As one that never has and never will, I can only hope there was a wink and sly grin when the grey haired man spoke. If not it is only additional confirmation that I never could, and will always do the logical thing.

"Don't blind those that are shooting at you...b/c they need their eyes - to shoot at you..."

If you can't beat them, BITE them.


[PhotoJournalist]<span style="font-style: italic">Hey, man, you don't talk to the Colonel. You listen to him. The man's enlarged my mind. He's a poet-warrior in the classic sense. I mean, sometimes he'll, uh, well, you'll say "Hello" to him, right? And he'll just walk right by you, and he won't even notice you. And suddenly he'll grab you, and he'll throw you in a corner, and he'll say "Do you know that 'if' is the middle word in life? 'If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you'..." – I mean, I'm no, I can't – I'm a little man, I'm a little man, he's, he's a great man. I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas – I mean –</span>[/PhotoJournalist]


Good luck

 

[rbhoover]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I have and use both an IR laser (in conjunction with a PVS-14 mono... soon a ANVIS-9) and a SureFire Scout light to aid in target identification (SureFire w/IR if using NVG's, white light if not) and target acquisition (AN/PEQ-2) during the darker parts of the day, they both help a lot! See pic of my "night fighter" rifle below:

 

[Richard Clark]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Well I can admit when I am wrong.

I must say every laser I have seen must be a crummy one, because in the daylight they we really hard to make out - making them just weight on the barrel.

If a veteran says the Military Issue lasers work than I'm inclined to believe it.

 

[VKC]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I tend to agree that lasers are not very useful, at least for me, on rifles. There are so many great scopes available and because of the long sight radius. But for a pistol, I find lasers very useful and fairly quick.

IR laser are in a different category.

There is also the consideration that your target or enemy may be able to use your laser to locate you, if they have similar equipment.

 

[i_Adam_i18]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I have a lazer on my taser, it works pretty good...

 

[Vanguard]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

To say IR lasers are incredible doesen't do it justice. On the PEQ-15 the visable laser was designed to zero the IR laser however it is used as a warning device AT NIGHT. The vis laser is too dull to see in broad daylight...green lasers are a different story but thats not the case here.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

Take a low light class. That'll make you a convert when it comes to visible lasers.

 

[huntler]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

If anyone has seen a GlARE MOUT in action then they wouldn't call visible lasers "hype" and "useless". I think a more accurate statement would be that consumer grade visible lasers are useless in daylight. However they work great indoors and in low light.

A peq-2 or 15 paired with a MOUT is an excellent setup.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

[/quote]
The vis/ir laser are aligned on the same axis so you can zero both...hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all. Ever notice how the very first setting on a ATPIAL is VIS ONLY??? While it is on the same plane to zero...that isn't it's only function. Same applies to the DBAL & DBAL A2 with VIS only settings.

Point that was missed apparently is vis lasers have a place...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent)

Now your turn... [/quote]

ok now I'm confused, you said yourself <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all.</div></div> so your saying it's close to worthless to use during the daytime but have taken down tangos?

you're point is not missed, I'm actually not saying they dont have a place, they do somewhere, just not in my collection, except at work, in IR mode, at night, and only for lazing target buildings or directing fire for my machine gunners, or telling the tracks where the zombies are, or identifying our position to the birds

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent</div></div>

help me with this, it was tangos first now vehicles, I'm not trying to read into it too much but are you saying that you use your PEQ15 to take aimed fire at vehicles to deter them and stop them, or are you saying you use it as a show of force warning system? Day? or night? cause for the latter at night I can actuually see that and say kudos, guess it depends on sector cause our warnings are and were live shots to the ground just short of said rolling VBIED, and if not than a surefire flashing your face from one of our vehicles is warning just the same. But lets be honest, derkas and ourselves cant see that laser in the blinding light of the desert, especially rollin in a vehicle.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another genius with no concept of modern technology</div></div>

this is where your wrong as two boys, assaulting people and insulting them when your blasting out your rediculous OPINION! that just makes anything you say afterward discredited, regardless if it comes out to us readers as a legit opinion or incoherrant babble Navajo wind talk. I, along with many others, have been there many times and not a once have I or they used the day laser for anything other than zeroing the IR laser

your turn? WTF is your turn?

 

[christian77]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I think I may have fixed our quotations to make sense...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The vis/ir laser are aligned on the same axis so you can zero both...hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all. Ever notice how the very first setting on a ATPIAL is VIS ONLY??? While it is on the same plane to zero...that isn't it's only function. Same applies to the DBAL & DBAL A2 with VIS only settings.

Point that was missed apparently is vis lasers have a place...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent)

Now your turn... </div></div>
ok now I'm confused, you said yourself <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all.</div></div> so your saying it's close to worthless to use during the daytime but have taken down tangos?

you're point is not missed, I'm actually not saying they dont have a place, they do somewhere, just not in my collection, except at work, in IR mode, at night, and only for lazing target buildings or directing fire for my machine gunners, or telling the tracks where the zombies are, or identifying our position to the birds</div></div>
The thread was not about what color laser is more visibly effective, it was about what is the point of it, and is their a legit application for them (that's what I read out of the OP anyways). Just about every RED laser I've used sucks during the day per visibility, however GREEN lasers do not and can be seen pending the power output for a fair distance. I have had great success "putting the breaks on" (stopping) johnny-jihad by beaming a GREEN laser in his face in the middle of the day.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm actually not saying they dont have a place, they do somewhere, just not in my collection, except at work</div></div>
My posts are predicated on the understanding that the laser is for work use.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent</div></div>
help me with this, it was tangos first now vehicles, I'm not trying to read into it too much but are you saying that you use your PEQ15 to take aimed fire at vehicles to deter them and stop them, or are you saying you use it as a show of force warning system? Day? or night? cause for the latter at night I can actuually see that and say kudos, guess it depends on sector cause our warnings are and were live shots to the ground just short of said rolling VBIED, and if not than a surefire flashing your face from one of our vehicles is warning just the same. But lets be honest, derkas and ourselves cant see that laser in the blinding light of the desert, especially rollin in a vehicle.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">help me with this, it was tangos first now vehicles, I'm not trying to read into it too much</div></div>
Here, I quoted myself for you... (I actually said monkeys and in keeping with the point, it wouldn't matter if they were tangos or tangos in vehicles, but I was referencing occasions where they "the monkies" were fast approaching the rear of our convoy)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have put the breaks on many a Middle Eastern monkey with a visible laser in broad daylight.</div></div>
That means I've stopped johnny jihad by displaying my laser, which was a TRG DD50 GREEN laser...it wouldn't have worked as a deterrent if it was the RED laser from an ATPIAL (during the day anyways).

*...but this post is about lasers (generalized) and if they are applicable not about specific lasers like the ATPIAL, DD50, PEQ11, etc...

Bottom line is...do they have a place. Sure they do!

The laser serves as a visual warning (for my use) not as an aiming point...their is no fucking way you're going to track a vis laser to fire on a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle with the expectation of a POA/POI. Laze the driver, get his attention and most of the time he'll remove his head from his ass, if he doesn't...fuck the laser...sight in and fire in accordance with your ROE.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm all about having a good debate on the merits of a visible lasers practicality. I'm fine debating multiple types of lasers and their capabilities...however I read this is a generalized topic on them and if they have a purpose</span>

 

[birddog762]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

racking the slide was to LOAD it. wtf good would it be other wise. lasers are another tool in the tool box. that like all tools need to be correctly used .

 

[marduk185]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think a quality laser is a great BACKUP site. to many folks use it as a primary and thats not what it was designed for. if a laser is the only sight you pratice with and the battery dies you are screwed. but i think they are great in a lowlight situation if you get a good one. ive had the cheep 100 dollar lasers and they are worthless. the ct lasers are the brightest ive tried so far </div></div>

Are you serious? Do you know how much of the equipment that the military uses these days relies on batteries? </div></div>

are you seriously saying that because the army with its tremendous supply chain runs around on battery power that its the correct answer for everyone?

 

[marduk185]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I may have fixed our quotations to make sense...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The vis/ir laser are aligned on the same axis so you can zero both...hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all. Ever notice how the very first setting on a ATPIAL is VIS ONLY??? While it is on the same plane to zero...that isn't it's only function. Same applies to the DBAL & DBAL A2 with VIS only settings.

Point that was missed apparently is vis lasers have a place...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent)

Now your turn... </div></div>
ok now I'm confused, you said yourself <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hardly worth a shit at best if you can see the red dot at all.</div></div> so your saying it's close to worthless to use during the daytime but have taken down tangos?

you're point is not missed, I'm actually not saying they dont have a place, they do somewhere, just not in my collection, except at work, in IR mode, at night, and only for lazing target buildings or directing fire for my machine gunners, or telling the tracks where the zombies are, or identifying our position to the birds</div></div>
The thread was not about what color laser is more visibly effective, it was about what is the point of it, and is their a legit application for them (that's what I read out of the OP anyways). Just about every RED laser I've used sucks during the day per visibility, however GREEN lasers do not and can be seen pending the power output for a fair distance. I have had great success "putting the breaks on" (stopping) johnny-jihad by beaming a GREEN laser in his face in the middle of the day.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm actually not saying they dont have a place, they do somewhere, just not in my collection, except at work</div></div>
My posts are predicated on the understanding that the laser is for work use.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've had great results using them as a rear gunner to ALLEGEDLY stop oncoming vehicles (deterrent</div></div>
help me with this, it was tangos first now vehicles, I'm not trying to read into it too much but are you saying that you use your PEQ15 to take aimed fire at vehicles to deter them and stop them, or are you saying you use it as a show of force warning system? Day? or night? cause for the latter at night I can actuually see that and say kudos, guess it depends on sector cause our warnings are and were live shots to the ground just short of said rolling VBIED, and if not than a surefire flashing your face from one of our vehicles is warning just the same. But lets be honest, derkas and ourselves cant see that laser in the blinding light of the desert, especially rollin in a vehicle.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">help me with this, it was tangos first now vehicles, I'm not trying to read into it too much</div></div>
Here, I quoted myself for you... (I actually said monkeys and in keeping with the point, it wouldn't matter if they were tangos or tangos in vehicles, but I was referencing occasions where they "the monkies" were fast approaching the rear of our convoy)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have put the breaks on many a Middle Eastern monkey with a visible laser in broad daylight.</div></div>
That means I've stopped johnny jihad by displaying my laser, which was a TRG DD50 GREEN laser...it wouldn't have worked as a deterrent if it was the RED laser from an ATPIAL (during the day anyways).

*...but this post is about lasers (generalized) and if they are applicable not about specific lasers like the ATPIAL, DD50, PEQ11, etc...

Bottom line is...do they have a place. Sure they do!

The laser serves as a visual warning (for my use) not as an aiming point...their is no fucking way you're going to track a vis laser to fire on a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle with the expectation of a POA/POI. Laze the driver, get his attention and most of the time he'll remove his head from his ass, if he doesn't...fuck the laser...sight in and fire in accordance with your ROE.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm all about having a good debate on the merits of a visible lasers practicality. I'm fine debating multiple types of lasers and their capabilities...however I read this is a generalized topic on them and if they have a purpose</span>

</div></div>
am i reading this right, that yer running around iraq pointing lasers at folks hoping this to modify their behavior? correct me if im wrong someone, but do they teach this at ait?

 

[jb7032]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?


DK, it seems that the discussion morphed into a discussion on daytime vis lasers as EOF(escalation of force)measures. So, i'll comment. I was also given a green laser for my gunner to use as an EOF measure. However, it makes no sense to waste time by pointing a laser at someone to try to get their attention and maybe they stop. If that bastard means you harm he isn't going to stop for a laser. We found that the M2 pointed straight at their grape worked quite effectively for stopping non-bad guys. If you determine that he's a bad guy, well then you're ready to turn his head into a canoe.

The original question asked, I think was a more in general question. IMO, most lasers available to civilians are junk to begin with, notice I say "most". I really don't think that they are very usefull except for shield men, then it'll prolly be on a pistol. Imagine a four man team entering a room running lasers, four lasers may or may not get confusing. But, what if there's a mirror on the wall? Or a <span style="font-weight: bold">GIANT DISCO BALL</span> twirling from the ceiling?

I do believe that lasers have their place in training to diagnose shooter error, especially in pistol shooting.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That means I've stopped johnny jihad by displaying my laser, which was a TRG DD50 GREEN laser...it wouldn't have worked as a deterrent if it was the RED laser from an ATPIAL (during the day anyways).

*...but this post is about lasers (generalized) and if they are applicable not about specific lasers like the ATPIAL, DD50, PEQ11, etc...

Bottom line is...do they have a place. Sure they do!

The laser serves as a visual warning (for my use) not as an aiming point...their is no fucking way you're going to track a vis laser to fire on a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle with the expectation of a POA/POI. Laze the driver, get his attention and most of the time he'll remove his head from his ass, if he doesn't...fuck the laser...sight in and fire in accordance with your ROE.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm all about having a good debate on the merits of a visible lasers practicality. I'm fine debating multiple types of lasers and their capabilities...however I read this is a generalized topic on them and if they have a purpose</span>

</div></div>[/quote]

I got ya, I don't agree with you but I get where your coming from. In MY experience, and have been there a few times, Ive never seen a day laser used in a real tactical situation, that being said, if it has worked for you than rock on with your bad self and do what you think keeps you safe. I just don't see any practical use for a day beam, it trends to bad habits IMHO

 

[black_ump]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

ok well i skimmed threw all of this and I am vary sorry i started a shit storm here.

let me ask this... do you see a laser being usefull on my usc/ump for 3 gun matches or for any thing ? I do run an aimpoint and surefire 660 light and soon a 3x magnifier, all that in its self adds weight to the weapon and if a laser will not really do much for what i use this gun for then i dont want to blow the money and add weight

 

[birddog762]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

one not in the chamber due to not under my direct control. the rest of your ASSUMPTIONS , well you know what happens when you assume. confidence in myself and skill set EXTREMELY. some intruder at home no doubt he will not prevail,nor will he hear it coming. and yeah it will be CNS. some you guys need to lay off that redbull shit.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's AIT? Oh that's some mythical school that pogs go to, to learn how to interact in combat.</div></div>

what? are you serious, or braindead? you mean pogue by the way, and EVERYONE goes to AIT, even you 11B, I should know, I was a drill at Benning, 1-50 to be exact, up until may of '09

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuck yes, we are taught to shine lasers at people. Ever had a dump truck flying towards you while you are the rear gunner in small ass HMMV? You shine that green laser at their windshield and have it splash you will see them screech to a stop, because they know their windshied is gone if they don't stop doing whatever they are doing. We use lasers to control traffic. Good job, desk jockey. And good job on the quote fail. I thought pogs knew internet etiquette, damn 11Bs gotta show you how it's done.</div></div>

again, what!?! no you werent, like I said, was a Drill and no unit on Sand Hill was teaching Joe to laze haj in the face. Desk jockey? seriously dude all you just did is feed a stereotype that Infantryman are retards, now all of us real 11B's with a brain just took a hit for you and your moronic comments!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This doesn't work anymore, after nearly 8 years of being flagged by .50 gunners, they don't even acknowledge that you are pointing it at their face. It used to work, but not anymore, they are complacent. With the current ROE, if you don't show a laser or some kind of notification and shoot, it's a 15.6 investigation. We are accountable for rounds and if one round goes off, we fill out sworn statements.</div></div>

this is a generalization, I know that statement was not true whatsoever the last time I was there which was 04-05 in Sadr City, been on the trail since, in our sector. It's the sector and chain of command tightening the chain with the 15.6's but not in ALL areas. Correct me if I'm wrong but I know JB just returned from that shit less than two weeks ago so I believe what he just said, not comments from one that doesnt know he went to 11B AIT!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for the OP, imagine your wife is at home alone, knows about your pistol but doesn't train on it much. She will know to shine a laser and squeeze the trigger.</div></div>

hmmmmmmm, this could go either way...but hey heres a thought..take her out and teach her, even a quick in the kitchen heres how you chamber a round, here's how you hold it, here's the trigger type thing is better than her tryin to figure out how to use a gun AND tryin to fiddle fuck with a laser switch

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hang on Haj don't ambush us yet, let me charge the .50.</div></div>

hang on Haj, dont run that VBIED into my truck, don't you see my laser light show? BOOM!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are accountable for rounds and if one round goes off, we fill out sworn statements.</div></div>

sounds like the caliber of "soldiers" in your unit the COC is very wise to 15-6 any rounds fired

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What the hell? Do you throw flashbangs at deer now? Tactical hunting rifles, damn armed deer.</div></div>

you know actually the laser on his hunting rig for close in makes a helluva lot more since than anything you've posted!

WOW, you're making my SH week with your teachings wise one, what a brain!

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I know why you have no clue, you are a reservist/nasty girl. I know I didn't go to AIT, I went to OSUT, but good job. Clearly the one that uses no grammar and punctuation, is the intelligent one here. Do you now what sarcasm is?</div></div>

now it's confirmed, you're a three day private, should known from being rear vehicle gunner. Well to educate your weak mind, 1-50 is an active Batallion, the only reserve Bats on the hill were 1-330, 1-329, 2-330 and it was only one of those three at any given time. And you didnt go to AIT you went to OSUT, PURE GENIUS private! OSUT IS basic immediately followed by AIT, remember turning green? thats the ceremony to mark the end of basic and the beginning of AIT, but I bet you were on sick call or barracks restriction and missed that one!

 

[42769vette]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jong</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think a quality laser is a great BACKUP site. to many folks use it as a primary and thats not what it was designed for. if a laser is the only sight you pratice with and the battery dies you are screwed. but i think they are great in a lowlight situation if you get a good one. ive had the cheep 100 dollar lasers and they are worthless. the ct lasers are the brightest ive tried so far </div></div>

Are you serious? Do you know how much of the equipment that the military uses these days relies on batteries? </div></div>

i didn't see where the op was limiting the discussion to the military. my response was for average joe homeowner

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

So before this thread became a pissing match, we were discussing the use of lasers on rifles and subguns as per the original post. Someone mentioned using a visible laser device as a means of using a long gun for cqb engagement. I think that is a novel concept, and to expand on it a little further, in respect to sub guns or sbr's, having a visible aiming point (or IR) gives you the advantage of being able to fire with precision without establishing a proper sight picture. If you are behind cover and trying to direct fire without exposing yourself, its a chore..lasers, mirrors, etc. are tools to make that kind of work easier.

That said, who makes a 'business-grade' day visible laser system? (all that IR stuff is out of my price range or practicality)

 

[jb7032]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok well i skimmed threw all of this and I am vary sorry i started a shit storm here.

let me ask this... do you see a laser being usefull on my usc/ump for 3 gun matches or for any thing ? I do run an aimpoint and surefire 660 light and soon a 3x magnifier, all that in its self adds weight to the weapon and if a laser will not really do much for what i use this gun for then i dont want to blow the money and add weight </div></div>

black_ump don't worry about the shit storm, its kinda fun! But seriously, IMO I don't think a visible laser on your gun would be beneficial for three gun. I've seen people try to use lasers on a range, where there is no pressure or time limit. They struggle with it and get obsessed with the laser. What caliber is your UMP? Do you really need a 3x magifier on a pistol caliber carbine? If you do then go for it. You mentioned weight and money, I know those magnifiers aren't cheap and they add some weight.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so all over the place on the net and in pereson i see quad rails with lights and lasers i see lights and laser units and they are all the rage, I have a light for my usc/ump and have though about how a laser plays a part in both cqb and other types of combat.</div></div>

I think in your original post you already knew the answer to your question.

What truly is the purpose for a weapon mounted laser? I think it so you can still aim the weapon if you can't use the other sights, like if you're shooting from the hip or around a corner or over a wall. I'm not saying you'll never do that, but if you are you're automatically loosing stability and you'll lack a good shooting position. If you don't ever plan on not using a good shooting position then you should be able to see through your Aimpoint. And, if thats the case then why would you put a laser on your gun.

Lights, lasers, quadrails <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">are</span></span> all the "rage". For the most part in most peoples cases thats all they are. They're fashionable or cool, if it says it tactical then they gotta have it. 15 years ago it was anything that said "National Match" was cool and they had to have it.

To quote jayjaypunisher "YOU'RE NOT COOL UNLESS YOU HAVE 16 FEET OF RAIL ON YOUR AK,SKS, OR AR!!!!!!!!"

 

[CK_32]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I was thinking the same thing the other day.. If you were a "good guy" and holding up in a house. I'd hope the "bad guys" were dumb enough to use a laser so I could know when and what door and direction they would be coming from.

It would be more of a give away than an aid. Takes away one of the most important things of close quarters combat, the element of surprise and popping around that corner with them not being ready for it. I say they are just hype other than looking cool.

If I was looking for ratings and a photo shoot I'd pop one on. Life or death scenario you wouldn't catch me dead with a laser attachment. Let me rephrase that you would catch me dead because if I used one I probably wouldn't last long

 

[Red Ryder]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

DK is damned near the Shakespeare of the 'hide.

 

[black_ump]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

JB7032:

i mainly bought the 3x ( its a clone ) cause it was cheep, i do shoot out to 100 yards and the 3x at that distance ( for me ) helps out, i would like to get a flip mount for it but for now the twist will have to do.

i was on the fence about the laser as i said i had a blast unit for my usp and in some cases i could see it being usefull ( on a pistol ) but for a rifle it seemed more of a way to give your location away.

i guess i will save my money on the laser and just look for some neat little up grades like vert grip and ?? mag clamps for my ump mags or somthing

 

[BigBoss0311]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

So at risk of being dragged into the "my internet dick is bigger than yours" pissing match, I think I'll throw my 2 cents in here. Yes, lasers have their uses. For home defense I don't think it matters whether or not you are "giving your position away" as you firing your weapon will do that pretty well anyways. And most people have a flashlight on their weapon for home defense so what the hell's the difference at 15 feet? And by the time rounds are flying, it really doesn't matter if you have a rainbow kaleidoscope flashing. Most people have not fired their weapon at a person before. And during a high stress situation where one might use their weapon, the adrenaline and stress will usually have them so amped that the majority of their shots will miss. So I believe a laser can help in that it keeps it simple. Aim the laser and pull the trigger when it's on the target. Helps with follow up and premature trigger pulls. Mind you this is for the untrained and those who have never trained to shoot people. In a military situation, lasers and lights are now standard in the ROE's. Granted you might skip past all the ROE's to the "kill" part, but imagine you are at a road checkpoint or at a convoy stuck in traffic. A vehicle is coming at you. Mo one ever accused hajj of being smart so he keeps coming at you. You see this. A flashlight is hard to see during the day in the Middle East. So you have a green laser on your weapon. (Green because it is easier to see in the day than red) You point your weapon at the vehicle and shine the laser in hajj's windshield. This is a deterrent and is now standard in the ROE's. That is why laser devices are issued now. 99 times out of 100, Mr. hajj stands on his brakes and can't back up fast enough. That 1 time he doesn't then he gets his face forcibly removed by a bunch of lead. The days of killing indiscriminately are over. There are investigations on the use of force. ROE's must be followed or people go to jail. And no disrespect to jayjay, but everyone knows that the first thing your unit tells you when you get to the fleet or the batt is, "forget everything you learned in boot camp, this is the real world." Everyone gets an ROE card and covers their ROE's before every mission. Lasers/lights are part of the ROE's. So for military use, yes there is a definite use and an effective one. For matches? Can you even use lasers during matches? If you are in a match, I would hope you know how to use the sights you have. Otherwise there is no reason to even BE in a match. Now, to the guy who asked is there a good civilian laser, whatever DK suggests is usually pretty good. Contrary to some people's beliefs, he knows his shit. Also, Insight makes a visible laser setup but it's expensive, around 600 bucks. However, if all you have for home defense is a bolt gun, then I can see a laser being very effective. Otherwise spend the 300 bucks for a Mossberg or 870.

 

[christian77]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...am i reading this right, that yer running around iraq pointing lasers at folks hoping this to modify their behavior? correct me if im wrong someone, but do they teach this at ait?</div></div>
VIS lasers are (for some) a step in the escalation of force when applicable...it does work most of the time and keeps unnecessary shootings down. I have no idea what they teach in AIT these days I went 13yrs ago?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jb7032</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DK, it seems that the discussion morphed into a discussion on daytime vis lasers as EOF(escalation of force)measures. So, i'll comment. I was also given a green laser for my gunner to use as an EOF measure. However, it makes no sense to waste time by pointing a laser at someone to try to get their attention and maybe they stop. If that bastard means you harm he isn't going to stop for a laser. We found that the M2 pointed straight at their grape worked quite effectively for stopping non-bad guys. If you determine that he's a bad guy, well then you're ready to turn his head into a canoe.</div></div>
I agree with you, the last thing I want to worry about is shining a laser on someone that I think means me harm when I could be aligning my sights...however not to give a dickcheese answer like "situation dictates", but TIME and DISTANCE is where the laser can be handy. If I have the time to use then I will, if not then I won't...but it's an added layer to use if/when possible.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jb7032</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The original question asked, I think was a more in general question. IMO, most lasers available to civilians are junk to begin with, notice I say "most". I really don't think that they are very usefull except for shield men, then it'll prolly be on a pistol. Imagine a four man team entering a room running lasers, four lasers may or may not get confusing. But, what if there's a mirror on the wall? Or a <span style="font-weight: bold">GIANT DISCO BALL</span> twirling from the ceiling?</div></div>
I think <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> lasers available to civilians aren't suited for practical use either...maybe it was me that took this thread in a totally different direction...(if so oops). I assumed the topic was inquiring about "real world" lasers on small arms and their use in a hostile environment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got ya, I don't agree with you but I get where your coming from. In MY experience, and have been there a few times, Ive never seen a day laser used in a real tactical situation, that being said, if it has worked for you than rock on with your bad self and do what you think keeps you safe. I just don't see any practical use for a day beam, it trends to bad habits IMHO</div></div>
I really don't think we disagree as much as it appears. I don't personally care for VIS lasers myself, I've used them with decent success, but I'd rather be getting my sight picture than waving a light-sabre at someone. I do think however they serve a purpose at times and are worth keeping as a "tool in the tool box"...so I don't dismiss them.
I think in a situation like this (pic), one could use a laser on someone inching their way forward.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok well i skimmed threw all of this and I am vary sorry i started a shit storm here. </div></div>
You know that I like to give you shit on your post, but don't apologize to anyone...this has turned into a good post on the merits of lasers and when they are/aren't practical. With that said, a VIS laser won't do you much good for 3gun in my opinion. Like you said, you''ll be looking for a dot vs. aligning your sights.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who makes a 'business-grade' day visible laser system? (all that IR stuff is out of my price range or practicality) </div></div>
Here is a link to the DD50 we used: http://www.trgear.com/osc/eshop/product_info.php/products_id/20

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

I got ya BigBoss, my point was that I've been on the trail so couldnt tell you the current ROE, and was not aware that green lasers were now a part of it. I have however just came from Infantry training land and know they aren't currently TRAINING privates on the use of green lasers. The only laser type training they receive is with old school PEQ4C's and PEQ2's, weapons pool on Benning has a small handful of PEQ15's so if your BN is lucky you might get to show your joes one and give them an informal class on it. I have been around about 12+ years and COMPLETELY agree that basic/AIT doesn't mean a thing once you arrive to your first unit!

DK, was that an issue Item or personal purchase?

I do apologize to everyone if I went on a tirade on someone. I really just don't appreciate someone running him gums via the internet on things he doesnt even know what he's talkin about making the rest of our branch look dumb, hell he didnt even know he went to AIT, that still cracks me up.

I much enjoy a solid even heated debate, like with DK, which i can tell is an intelligent guy, not so much with the other.

back to topic, I still have my personal opinion that the "majority" of ones you see are a complete gimmick, however some discussions on here and some viewpoints are very legitimate, for example I have never thought of one being used for the lead shield man, makes total since. I can also understand it as a warning signal but I really do trust you guys but that's one I'll have to see for myself, being able to see a laser, green, blue, futia, toupe or whatever in the middle of the brightest place I've ever been. So in that role does it need to be a super duper weapon mounted or a solid handheld unit? what I mean by that is I've seen handheld green ones that were issued in Sadr City to our PL's on my last deployment, which couldnt be seen during the day granted that was five years ago and I know they're better now. On the ground we always had multiple guns pointed in case a car wanted to act derka derka ish, might answer my own question but I agree it's a different story with that initial outer security man on a hasty TCP, probably needs to be weapon mounted

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really don't think we disagree as much as it appears. I don't personally care for VIS lasers myself, I've used them with decent success, but I'd rather be getting my sight picture than waving a light-sabre at someone. I do think however they serve a purpose at times and are worth keeping as a "tool in the tool box"...so I don't dismiss them</div></div>

I think you're right, and actually think you and one or two more are getting me to change my stance, ever so slightly, on the use of said jedi light sabres..........A-HOLE!

 

[christian77]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DK, was that an issue Item or personal purchase?</div></div>
The DD50 was issued in small quantities, so as you can imagine...the 1SG, CO and everyone else that didn't need one, had one. I contacted the company and bought one once I saw the power output and how effective they were. I actually sold it in the FS section a couple years ago now that I think about it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I much enjoy a solid even heated debate, like with DK, which i can tell is an intelligent guy, not so much with the other.</div></div>
+1, this was a great debate with intelligible banter.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayjayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll have to see for myself, being able to see a laser, green, blue, futia, toupe or whatever in the middle of the brightest place I've ever been. So in that role does it need to be a super duper weapon mounted or a solid handheld unit?</div></div>
The DD50 I used was weapon mounted. Currently we have a stand-alone unit that is powerful enough to give free PRK surgery to johnny jihad....but I hate it, being that it's stand-alone. I would shitcan the stand-alone unit entirely since it removes your hands from your actual fighting weapon system. I haven't figured out how to laser someone to death with it yet

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: why lasers on rifles/sub guns ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DD50 I used was weapon mounted. Currently we have a stand-alone unit that is powerful enough to give free PRK surgery to johnny jihad....but I hate it, being that it's stand-alone. I would shitcan the stand-alone unit entirely since it removes your hands from your actual fighting weapon system. I haven't figured out how to laser someone to death with it yet </div></div>

pretty much my thoughts on a handheld, shoe goo or 100 mile an hour tape it to your gat? not pretty but would work