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Why No 30 06
- Thread starter mb3
- Start date
The 1st CF rifle I fired was Dad's old '03'A3 - not an ideal rifle for prairie dogs, but I wish I still had it. When I told him I was going into town to buy a new M70 in 243 Win, he told me to take the '06 along and trade it off, as "There's no reason to have more than one hi-power rifle on the place." That was in '68, and there's a darned sight more than one hi-power here in my office today.
Hadn't played with an '06 for a long, long time, and had only chambered three for customers in the 9yrs I've been doing custom barrel work. But about a month ago, after reading some posts on the '06, I got to looking around the shop, and realized I had all the parts to build myself a fairly nice rifle in .30-'06. So I trued a new M700 LA, chambered a Bartlein 5R 1-11tw sendero contour with a Serengeti reamer, bedded it in a desert camo McM A3-5 purchased off their inventory list, hung a straight shoe Timney trigger on it, along with a steel NF 20 MOA sloped base, and put my oldest Nikon 30mm 4-16x50 tactical scope on it with a set of steel TPS TRS rings, after CeraKoting the bbl'd action, base, & PTG Stealth DBM in FDE. And since I'm used to shooting 6 Dashers, 6 RATs, 6x47s, 6.5x47s, and 260 Imp 30*, I added a Harrell's Precision 4-port tactical brake. Wound up with a rifle weighing just over 13lbs.
I'm still waiting on some Berger 185 Hybrids & Juggernauts to arrive; since all I had in quantity were 155s & S175MKs, I've been shooting the 175s with Data 86, a surplus Czech single base extruded powder that was advertised as having a burn rate between 4350 & 4831. Have been mostly very pleased with the accuracy, but have yet to get any chrono data. Based on come-ups at 600 & 700, I'd guess my velocity is around 2750fps, which according to a couple of you guys should be a fairly mild load in the '06 case. Whatever - the rifle is fun to shoot, and I'm looking forward to getting more experience with it when the weather settles down a bit. We're getting gusts in excess of 45mph today - don't think I'd have much luck keeping the sky screens sitting upright.
Hadn't played with an '06 for a long, long time, and had only chambered three for customers in the 9yrs I've been doing custom barrel work. But about a month ago, after reading some posts on the '06, I got to looking around the shop, and realized I had all the parts to build myself a fairly nice rifle in .30-'06. So I trued a new M700 LA, chambered a Bartlein 5R 1-11tw sendero contour with a Serengeti reamer, bedded it in a desert camo McM A3-5 purchased off their inventory list, hung a straight shoe Timney trigger on it, along with a steel NF 20 MOA sloped base, and put my oldest Nikon 30mm 4-16x50 tactical scope on it with a set of steel TPS TRS rings, after CeraKoting the bbl'd action, base, & PTG Stealth DBM in FDE. And since I'm used to shooting 6 Dashers, 6 RATs, 6x47s, 6.5x47s, and 260 Imp 30*, I added a Harrell's Precision 4-port tactical brake. Wound up with a rifle weighing just over 13lbs.
I'm still waiting on some Berger 185 Hybrids & Juggernauts to arrive; since all I had in quantity were 155s & S175MKs, I've been shooting the 175s with Data 86, a surplus Czech single base extruded powder that was advertised as having a burn rate between 4350 & 4831. Have been mostly very pleased with the accuracy, but have yet to get any chrono data. Based on come-ups at 600 & 700, I'd guess my velocity is around 2750fps, which according to a couple of you guys should be a fairly mild load in the '06 case. Whatever - the rifle is fun to shoot, and I'm looking forward to getting more experience with it when the weather settles down a bit. We're getting gusts in excess of 45mph today - don't think I'd have much luck keeping the sky screens sitting upright.
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Remington is now cataloging a long range hunter type rifle in 30-06 with a varmint weight barrel and the B&C M40 style stock.
To me, that would be the perfect jumping off point.
Excellent stock, decent barrel (Rem factory tubes are usually good shooters) so-so trigger.
I have been lucky with the two x mark triggers that I have, one is the original x mark, the other was the x mark pro.
Both were very functional, with a nice clean break as long as you don't go below about 3#'s or so.
Remington 700 Long Range 4+1 30-06SPRG 26" $652.00 SHIPS FREE
It's all in the numbers : recoil impulse, BC and MV are all objective numbers.
From shooters point of view you want least recoil and least muzzle blast, and from hitting the target point of view you want the highest BC and MV.
It's a balancing act with mathematically correct answers.
Some cartridges can be very easily improved by necking them up or down - basically matching the case capacity to best possible MV/BC compromise.
308 can be easily improved with lower recoil and with less drift down the range by necking it down to 264 (260rem, 6.5CM, 6.5SLR).
30-06 size case is much more suited for 7mm bullet (280rem, 280AI)
To properly utilize 30cal bullet you need 300WM capacity - and if you are willing to deal with 30-ish ft/lb of recoil - more power to you (pun intended). And while the energy is going to be drastically higher with 300WM - trajectory will be basically identical to 260Rem, except 260 will have HALF the recoil.
P.S. 7x57 Mauser
85% factor = 223 Remington
120% factor = 338 Lapua
The only thing that slightly changes is the shoulder - 21, 23, 25 degrees respectively; everything else is dead on - the caliber, the case length, the base diameter - it's kind of crazy.
I don't know about all the history stuff all that well. I just like to screw them together, and gotta say, I love my 30-06. BTW, I do have, and have had a lot of other calibers to compare, but there's just something special about this one for me. Not saying its the best caliber by any means, just saying I like it.
Am certain that German Salazar and some others that use the 06 in competition have their reasons for it.
The 06 cartridge "design" may be old, but it's good. With the selection of bullets and powders available now it certainly deserves consideration.
As the youngsters conduct research about the extent of 6mm use, they may discover that a significant percentage of people using 6mm must also squat to pee as compared to the "old" and "outdated" 30-06.
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I'm improperly using the 208 AMax at 2720 fps from my 22.5" 30-06.
That will retain 1300 fps to about 1300 yards at sea level. In local atmo (4500') it's retaining 1300 fps to about 1500 yards.
That will retain 1300 fps to about 1300 yards at sea level. In local atmo (4500') it's retaining 1300 fps to about 1500 yards.
Thanks but I'm pretty happy with the 208s for my go-to ammo. One day I'll run some Berger 215 Hybrid through it though for S&G.
I did start off with 190 SMKs back in the beginning. They would do 2920 fps in a 26.5" bbl, via moly and RL22. Another blatantly improper use....grin.
I did start off with 190 SMKs back in the beginning. They would do 2920 fps in a 26.5" bbl, via moly and RL22. Another blatantly improper use....grin.
As with most things it all depends on your purpose.
For large targets at long range, higher muzzle velocity only slightly improves hit percentages. You generally need a much higher percentage MV gain to appreciably increase hit percentages on larger targets. You will gain more by increasing the consistency of whatever MV you are shooting.
For hunting deer I suspect the deer won't notice 100 fps difference between a 150g slug in either caliber as long as the bullet is constructed properly.
If you are shooting smaller targets at distance, that 100 fps difference might be worth a switch.
They are both good calibers and will both get most jobs done well.
I have been shooting a 30-06 so long I guess I had not noticed it was no longer popular. My mountain rifle is a late 40s FN Mauser. It currently has a #3 Lilja 1-11 3 groove, a McMillan stock, and a Timney trigger. Launching Berger 185s it packs well and kills with authority.
My light '06 is a 700 SPS cut to 20". McMillan BDL, Leup 2.5-8x36 with M1s. 208 AMax at 2650 fps.
[MENTION=232]MontanaMarine[/MENTION] I will be searching some of your blatantly improperly used reloading threads soon. Got me one of those piss poor convolutions, AKA, Remington Long Range 30-06’s coming to fling 208’s and 215’s into the hereafter. I may just introduce a mule deer to it in your home state this fall pending draw results...
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I don't favor a current military chambering because of surplus ammo availability, because I prefer ammo of a higher accuracy than surplus. Modern combat doctrine is based on the fire and maneuver model, and to some extent, some inherent inaccuracy is desirable in that role. I see the point of supporting fire as forcing the OpFor into cover, suppressing return fire; so some dispersion combined with massed fire would seem optimal.
I own three .30-'06's and no .308's. My short action precision rifles are chambered for .260 Rem, which utilizes the .308 case capacity much more efficiently. My long action precision rifle is chambered in .280 Rem, again to find closer to ideal efficiency from the '06 chamber capacity. My '06's are a Garand and a pair of bolt action hunters. If the '06 can rival some .300WM performances, I suspect the .280 Rem has a leg up on that.
The '06 hunter is an M70 24" sporter, set up to emulate the Featherweight with a lightweight B&C replacement stock. The other is a factory Ruger 77 MKI, which has proven to be the bane of Yates County Whitetails using 150gr Core-Lokt Express in my Son-In-Law's hands.
Greg
I own three .30-'06's and no .308's. My short action precision rifles are chambered for .260 Rem, which utilizes the .308 case capacity much more efficiently. My long action precision rifle is chambered in .280 Rem, again to find closer to ideal efficiency from the '06 chamber capacity. My '06's are a Garand and a pair of bolt action hunters. If the '06 can rival some .300WM performances, I suspect the .280 Rem has a leg up on that.
The '06 hunter is an M70 24" sporter, set up to emulate the Featherweight with a lightweight B&C replacement stock. The other is a factory Ruger 77 MKI, which has proven to be the bane of Yates County Whitetails using 150gr Core-Lokt Express in my Son-In-Law's hands.
Greg
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Take a look at your 30 cal cartridge. Ask yourself:
- how fast can I shoot 168gn out of it?
- what if that 168 had a .315 G7?
- did my new load improve drop and wind drift VS my current load?
If the answer is "yes" - then your case is much better suited for 7mm; not only you'll improve your external ballistics, but will reduce the recoil as well.
Since BC is the king past PBR, for 30 cal to work better than 7mm - you HAVE to shoot higher BCed bullets. 320+ BC bullets are heavy, and you have to shot them fairy fast, so that initial MV of lighter 7mm doesn't overbear the higher BC of 30s (within intended range that is - BC always wins in the long, sometimes very long run).
But I can already shoot you in the pupil of your eye ball at 100 meters, the head at 700, the body at 1000, if you are wearing body armor I break out the 300 wm and blow through it with ease, if you are in an up armored vehicle I break out the 300 WM with AP and stop your engine then I shoot you in the pupil, if I want to do face shots at a 1000 I will use my custom 260 Rem or my Model 70 300 WSM. In reality, I see no issue with teh 0.308 caliberl.
I'd never choose to hobble myself with the 168gr in any 30 cal. That wouldn't make sense on any level.
The LR performance lies in the 200+ gr projos, with BCs in the .6+ range, driven at 2700-2800 fps in typical bbl lengths. There you get excellent values in drift, supersonic range, and retained energy. Barrel life is excellent to boot. I'm getting to 1000 yards with 27.5 moa/8.0 mils.
Yes it's true a heavy bullet will dish out more recoil than a lighter one. No different than all the big 30s, 338s, an on up. Recoil is a fact of life, and we all choose where we want to be on that scale, and how we wish to accomodate that recoil. My 16-lb 30-06 with a muzzle brake is a pussycat to shoot.
The LR performance lies in the 200+ gr projos, with BCs in the .6+ range, driven at 2700-2800 fps in typical bbl lengths. There you get excellent values in drift, supersonic range, and retained energy. Barrel life is excellent to boot. I'm getting to 1000 yards with 27.5 moa/8.0 mils.
Yes it's true a heavy bullet will dish out more recoil than a lighter one. No different than all the big 30s, 338s, an on up. Recoil is a fact of life, and we all choose where we want to be on that scale, and how we wish to accomodate that recoil. My 16-lb 30-06 with a muzzle brake is a pussycat to shoot.
I agree about choosing where we want to be on the recoil scale.
My heaviest '06 is my Garand, and shooting M2 equivalent loads is enough for me.
My '06 bolt gun is a relatively light weight M70, and FGMM .30-'06/168 works at about my recoil limit.
I would consider each to be effective enough at reasonable distances. I figure the Garand is effective with its irons out to at least 600yd, and I can use the sights to find a good POA for well beyond 1000yd if I want to play the odds. I know the M70 will hit what I want to at 800yd, and that's just the farthest I've gotten to try it at, yet.
Greg
My heaviest '06 is my Garand, and shooting M2 equivalent loads is enough for me.
My '06 bolt gun is a relatively light weight M70, and FGMM .30-'06/168 works at about my recoil limit.
I would consider each to be effective enough at reasonable distances. I figure the Garand is effective with its irons out to at least 600yd, and I can use the sights to find a good POA for well beyond 1000yd if I want to play the odds. I know the M70 will hit what I want to at 800yd, and that's just the farthest I've gotten to try it at, yet.
Greg
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Who said the 30-06 has no place in this modern world? I beg to differ. I love the 30-06 so much I had the guys at Short Action Customs (SAC) create this masterpiece for me.
If you listen very carefully, you can hear steel targets all over South Texas quivering in fear!
Specs:
BAT Tactical Long Action
Schneider Fluted Barrel, 1-10 Twist, MTU Contour, 30" Long.
APA Fat Bastard Brake
McMillan A5 Stock, Fully Adjustable. (McMillan "McCamo" Finish)
Surgeon DBM Bottom Metal
Timney Wide Shoe Trigger Set At 2 1/2 Lbs.
All Metal Is Cerakoted Desert Sage With OD Green Accents
If you listen very carefully, you can hear steel targets all over South Texas quivering in fear!
Specs:
BAT Tactical Long Action
Schneider Fluted Barrel, 1-10 Twist, MTU Contour, 30" Long.
APA Fat Bastard Brake
McMillan A5 Stock, Fully Adjustable. (McMillan "McCamo" Finish)
Surgeon DBM Bottom Metal
Timney Wide Shoe Trigger Set At 2 1/2 Lbs.
All Metal Is Cerakoted Desert Sage With OD Green Accents
[MENTION=30081]ogonzalez13[/MENTION]----nice piece!!
I have a 30.06 AI in the works. Rem700 L/A, 32" Kreiger 1-10 twist barrel, HS Precision stock, JP Recoil Eliminator, going to be throated to shoot Berger 230's. Can't wait to get home and try it out!
I have a 30.06 AI in the works. Rem700 L/A, 32" Kreiger 1-10 twist barrel, HS Precision stock, JP Recoil Eliminator, going to be throated to shoot Berger 230's. Can't wait to get home and try it out!
ogonzalez13 & Sniper Uncle
30+" 30-06 with a break makes me scratch my head. What's the purpose of YOUR rifles? Heavy bench hunting?
I have six 30-06s myself, 5 are for Vintage matches and one is a light-weight brush shorty (like MontanaMarine's). I also have a few 30" guns - but they are all dedicated F-class rigs.
30+" 30-06 with a break makes me scratch my head. What's the purpose of YOUR rifles? Heavy bench hunting?
I have six 30-06s myself, 5 are for Vintage matches and one is a light-weight brush shorty (like MontanaMarine's). I also have a few 30" guns - but they are all dedicated F-class rigs.
Just for fun my friend. I have dedicated hunting rifles. I have lots of short and long range rigs. I have plenty of pistols and "CQB/ Battle carbines and rifles.
They all have a place. This 30-06 will be for prone shooting out to 1000 yards on steel targets, just for fun.
Stop scratching your head so much. People will think you have lice.
gonz'...that rifle with a good bullet will get you out to a mile with consistent accuracy.
I'm at 4000' ASL, and I take my 22.5" 30-06 to 1500+ yards with repeatable accuracy. I'm sending 208s at 2720 fps.
Your 30-06 will shoot like a 300 WinMag with a 26" bbl.
I'm at 4000' ASL, and I take my 22.5" 30-06 to 1500+ yards with repeatable accuracy. I'm sending 208s at 2720 fps.
Your 30-06 will shoot like a 300 WinMag with a 26" bbl.
I just loaded 10 rounds of 190SMK and H4350 in win brass and 210M primers to start with. 53.5 grains.
Can you recommend what you think would be my top end load using this powder bullet combo. Should I increase by .5 grains of powder or perhaps .3 grains until I see pressure?
Ogonzalez, that reamer work out for ya ?
Just got the rifle back yesterday.
Trying to load some ammo for this weekend. What did you find works?
If you want the best velocity, RL22 will probably be your best bet.
I got tired of the temperature sensitivity and went with H4350 or H4831sc. Both gave great accuracy with H4831sc the edge to velocity and H4350 the edge for accuracy.
If you like ball powders, ramshot hunter worked really well too, but again temp sensitive.
Below is 53.5gr H4350 lapua brass 208 Amax seated 3.447" out of a 26" brux. 7 shots at 110 yards.
Velocity is only around 2650fps, but the pressures are low, accuracy is lights out, and I'm on the 12-15 loading with tight primer pockets. I can go quite a bit higher but I didn't see the need to the way it was shooting.
send me a pm we can talk loads.
I got tired of the temperature sensitivity and went with H4350 or H4831sc. Both gave great accuracy with H4831sc the edge to velocity and H4350 the edge for accuracy.
If you like ball powders, ramshot hunter worked really well too, but again temp sensitive.
Below is 53.5gr H4350 lapua brass 208 Amax seated 3.447" out of a 26" brux. 7 shots at 110 yards.
Velocity is only around 2650fps, but the pressures are low, accuracy is lights out, and I'm on the 12-15 loading with tight primer pockets. I can go quite a bit higher but I didn't see the need to the way it was shooting.
send me a pm we can talk loads.
Started life as my first hunting rifle, but since I have started shooting open sights, I'll probably use my K-31 for deer hunting in PA. I decided to see what I could do with the 30.06, after shooting my 338LM, and decided to see if I could get to a mile with the 30.06. In a 30.06 AI, I can get a little more squeezed out of it. I always wanted to be able to reach out and touch something....
You'll probabaly be getting to around 60k psi somewhere between 55-57 gr, depending on brass, throat, etc.
I haven't used 4350 myself though, just predictions from Quickload.
Thanks you sir.
I have gone from 53.5-55.5 in 5 grain increments. I'm going to try that out first slowly and see what she does. 10 rds of each weight.
I would use one of each as a pressure test sequence first...
Whenever I venture into unknown charge weight territory, I always do a pressure test sequence first. No pressure test if valid unless it is done in the barrel in question.
Whenever I venture into unknown charge weight territory, I always do a pressure test sequence first. No pressure test if valid unless it is done in the barrel in question.
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This is great advice. I will do this and use it also as a way to get my scope dialed in.
I really appreciate the words of wisdom. You really can't be too carefull when practicing the art of loading/reloading.
Another point is that one can identify excess charge weight by noting that beyond a certain point, more powder no longer results in the same incremental velocity increase.
When I say excess charge weight, I am not necessarily talking about more pressure. I am talking about efficiency; but pressure will pretty much always become an issue as well. It also may not, which is one reason why slow powders won't work optimally in short barrels
You can identify an excess charge in a shorter barrel with the bed sheet test. A bed sheet, spread out ahead of the muzzle, will catch unburned powder kernels.
Greg
When I say excess charge weight, I am not necessarily talking about more pressure. I am talking about efficiency; but pressure will pretty much always become an issue as well. It also may not, which is one reason why slow powders won't work optimally in short barrels
You can identify an excess charge in a shorter barrel with the bed sheet test. A bed sheet, spread out ahead of the muzzle, will catch unburned powder kernels.
Greg
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It also helps to have someone observe your muzzle flash when shooting. Sometimes more powder will give you a long flame as it burns outside the barrel but not leave much un-burned powder to collect on a bed sheet.
I prefer to do my ladder test over a chrono so I can spot the point of diminishing return on charge weight before I've "diminished" too much of my powder supply
Never thought about ( powder burn ) just got lucky ??? H4831LongCut( 6" drop tubed ) works great in My 27" 30-06 barrel shoving 200Hybrids - these are lit off by Mag primers because the Verticle dipersion / speed spread was alot better than with regular primers??!! My muzzle flash is pretty big But My ES hovers around 12fps. and Verticle at range coincides so I never questioned it any further??
ogonzalez 13 I am running 180 grains sierra game kings in mine and ran into pressure signs at 56.5 grains of 4350. Your top end seems reasonable I would probably push it to 56 grains if I was shooting 190's. But that's just my opinion on my gun your test seems reasonable and safe.
55.5 of H-4350 under a 180gr Hornady Interbond works very well for me. 2720 out of a 24" barrel with .3" groups at 100 yards and a 11fps extreme spread with 5 shots. I have pushed it to 57.5 with 2950 and did not see pressure signs in my Kimber 84L Montana. At the higher velocities the accuracy and extreme spreads did open up. Now if only I can get out and try the load on game instead of just at the range.
OMG, I actually agree with every word Graham said in a post!
That is complete BS right there. I can push 190's to 3000 FPS in a 28" 30-06, and 208's to just under 2900. It does not kick the shit out of me and bulk 30-06 brass is available from Lapua, 300 WM isn't or any of the belted magnums for that matter. In fact, the 30-06 is the largest case Lapua makes other than the .338 and the 9.3x62.
300WM match grade brass is near impossible to find and does not last long because the primer pockets go to hell so quickly. I get about 14 reloads out of my 30-06 Lapua brass before it is toast, maybe 5 out of my 300WM.
lots of truth there
And that is the biggest bunch of BS I have read on the hide in a LONG time.
I find that long neck gives me a lot less bullet runout and much better neck tension. For me that is a performance plus.
Accuracy was not a design issue for this cartridge, it was made for shooting equipment. Shoot your engine block with a 50 BMG API and tell me if it did a piss-poor job of putting a hole through it.
I use 57 grains of 4350 in Lapua brass and Federal match primers with both 190VLD's and 190 SMK's. Have better luck with the VLD's just off the lands, SMK's are a bit more forgiving of depth but a little less accurate for me. 57 is hot, primers crater a little but it is the last safe accuracy node for my 2 rifles (both have 28" Sendero profile barrels)
RL22 is much better for the over 200's, namely 220 SMK's. It's too slow for anything lighter. H4350 is better for the 175's to 190's. H4831 works really well for the 215 Hybrids with their heavier weight and shorter bearing surface than the 208 Amax. I actually get higher velocities with the 215's than I do with the 208 Amax. I had to take the spacer block out of my Accurate mags to be able to load the 215's to 3.51 which is just off the lands in a Serengeti chamber and WOW is this is an awesome combination. Those LONG assed 215's shoot really really well out of that chamber.
The best powder for 208's is N160 but it is a bit dirty.. Lots of graphite on that powder. But good luck finding it, that powder has been unavailable for over a year. Reloader 19 is also another awesome powder for a 30-06 and 208 Amax. Reloader 17 is fantastic for 150's to 168's.
Hands down my favorite bullet in a 30-06 Serengeti is the Berger 215 Hybrid. When I go to shoot 220's and above, the 300 WM comes out.
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DAMN! That's pretty awesome for some parts laying around the shop. I have a 308 that I built up some, but I have a special affinity for the 30-06. If you decide to kick that bucket of parts to the closet, I'm sure someone like myself would give it a good home...
I would love to re-barrel my old Rem700 30-06 and toss it in decent composite stock. How does that gun shoot?
I am switching to IMR 4350 for the 190's , want to keep the H 4350 for the Rem 260, any good loads shooting the IMR 4350 with the 190's? My current 1 holer load is 53.4 of H 4350 in Win cases.
Great input by all in this thread, well, except for one gent.
Great input by all in this thread, well, except for one gent.
Thank you sir. I appreciate the information. Great to have some guys with real world knowledge chiming in.
@ RHunter
WOW! Thanks for all the great info!! Just what I needed as those are the type of loading combinations I would like to try.
What kind of velocities were you getting from these loads?
Thanks again.
WOW! Thanks for all the great info!! Just what I needed as those are the type of loading combinations I would like to try.
What kind of velocities were you getting from these loads?
Thanks again.
2950 fps in a cold bore. Well, in Florida that's 70 degrees. I'd subtract 50fps per inch of barrel under 28 inches.
I have never been able to get my head around why someone wants/likes shorter barrels... Sure you get decent accuracy out of them but the velocity goes to shit.
I'd shoot 30" barrels if I could fit the gun in a Pelican 1750... I don't use my LR rifles for hunting so I am not carrying them around all day... So why the hell anyone would want anything shorter than a 28" is beyond me.
If you subscribe to using OBT theory, sometimes hitting the accuracy node is easier with shorter barrels vs longer barrels... Optimally, you'd want the highest velocity while being in an accuracy node. If you have great velocity but crappy accuracy, the speed gains aren't worth it. That being said USUALLY there's a powder out there that will allow you to find that sweet spot even with the longer barrels..
That is the key right there.
One of the biggest mistakes I see, where a lot of guys never reach the full potential of their rifle, is using powder that is mismatched to the bullet weight and length of barrel. If you don't understand how to use burn rates to your advantage and how the weight of the bullet affects pressure, you will never squeeze out that last FPS of potential performance. Slow powders like RL22 should only be used with the heaviest of bullets but I see guys using it for 168's.. Might be accurate, but you just shaved off 300 FPS and 300 yards of supersonic flight. Or, if range is not what you are after, you just lost a lot of ftlbs of terminal performance. Reloder 22 is "borderline" a good powder for a 30-06 and should not be used in a short barrel no matter how big the brick is you are trying to push down the pipe. But that slow burn can be really good in a long barrel because you still have powder burning the bullets whole trip down the barrel. That results in a constant increase of velocity.
To me, reloading manuals are pretty worthless for good load data. I will look at them when I get a new cartridge but only to see the range of powders being used, what powder has the max weight suggested, and the pressure it produces. That powder is the benchmark. I can figure out the rest from there. That benchmark powder will be too slow for my liking, I start my load development with something a little faster and work up to the point where my loads are compressed. If I don't reach any pressure signs, I try a faster powder the next time. Usually the powder that starts to show pressure signs right at full case capacity is the one I will be able to find a good precision load for at 98% of case capacity.
There are some powder and bullet combos that no matter how hard you try you could not blow yourself up unless you plugged the pipe. I can grab a 338 Lapua case and pack it full of US869 until I can not get another single grain of powder in the case, press a 300 grain bullet into it and no kaboom and it's reasonably accurate. I can do the same thing with my 50BMG with some of the slow Winchester powders for the 20mm.
Where a lot of people risk blowing their head off is using a powder that is too fast. My opinion, if you have more than 6-7% of the case empty.. you might be using the wrong powder. If you start with the slow powders first and work your load development to the faster powders last, you will never blow yourself up or damage your hardware by having too much powder in a case.
Another point, when powder has a lot of case to slosh around in, your ED and SD goes to hell because the rate of which the powder is consumed fluctuates round to round and you will never have a precision load.
Now before all of you know-it-alls jump all over me, there is a big difference between a precision load and a "really accurate" one. Any 3/4 MOA load that has paper between holes at 100 yards is really accurate, a load that produces a pattern where each hole touches, THAT is a precision load.
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