[MENTION=89931]RHunter[/MENTION], thanks for a great post! That information is worth remembering when I start reloading.
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Why No 30 06
- Thread starter mb3
- Start date
[MENTION=89931]RHunter[/MENTION], great post. I have several books, but much of my load development has been done with the aid of QuickLoad. It is a little pricey, but I think it is well worth it. QL was what lead me to using RL-50 in my 338LM with a 34" barrel. 108% capacity, 2750+FPS on a 300 Berger OTM. Excellent accuracy, about 3/8 MOA at 400 yds. I will be using RL-19 and RL-22 in my 30.06 Ackley Improved 32" barrel with 208-230 grain bullets, for the same reason. I try to get a powder that is 95% case capacity up to 110%, and has about 98% or better full burn. I try to be close to 100% burn, to cut ES on my velocity, but I want the bullet to be pushed all the way out the barrel---why have a long barrel if you don't use it to it's potential???
I do use the books to double check some of my figuring, and sometimes to get an idea of what powders I could try in a given caliber.
I do use the books to double check some of my figuring, and sometimes to get an idea of what powders I could try in a given caliber.
Funny enough I was looking today at 30-06's. I was looking at the Rem 700 Long Range, which is a new gun. It's a long action, and ofered in the 06'. Would this be a decent entry level rifle to build on? Thanks for all of the insight guys! I have learned a TON reading this thread.
With the heavy 26" barrel and the M-40 stock a lot of the "building" has already been done. I just wish that Remington would stop pushing that POS "X-Mark Pro" trigger. If I were to buy this rifle I'd order a Timney at the same time. From there it looks like the rest of the "build" would be a good bipod, optics, and a supply of ammo
.FWIW, Remington is using Hammer Forged Barrels in a lot of their production. While they don't show it in their specs for this model chances are great that this is a hammer forged barrel. They're smoother than even the best hand lapped barrels and tough enough to last many, many rounds, without loss of accuracy. I put over 10k rounds through my 5-R Milspec (hammer forged barrel) before re-barreling.
Once you find a load that works well with the long Remington Chamber they're great rifles (except for the POS X-Mark Pro trigger).
Mbro and Deadshot, thanks for the opinions, they make me like the idea of this rifle all the more. Just so I am a bit more clear, here is where I am. I have some AR's, a couple that are MOA guns to 200. I also shoot a bunch of pistols as well. As far as rifles, I have some hunting rifles, and they are fine for their purpose.
What I don't have, is a really nice precision rig. I would like to get into some longer distance shooting, and lack the gear. When I say "entry level", I guess I am probably not ready to get into the custom game yet, but realize there aren't any free lunches either. In what you guys have said, I didn't realize this was such a good value. Seems like it has a lot of good features for the money.
What is with the M40 stock? Is that a bring back from days gone by? Is it better than the high flat comb of the Sendero style guns?
Thanks again for the help. Josh
What I don't have, is a really nice precision rig. I would like to get into some longer distance shooting, and lack the gear. When I say "entry level", I guess I am probably not ready to get into the custom game yet, but realize there aren't any free lunches either. In what you guys have said, I didn't realize this was such a good value. Seems like it has a lot of good features for the money.
What is with the M40 stock? Is that a bring back from days gone by? Is it better than the high flat comb of the Sendero style guns?
Thanks again for the help. Josh
Worth mentioning IMHO, when ammo was flying off the shelf after Sandy Hook, guess what was still there? Yep, our old friend 30 06. That's what sold me over both the .308 and .300WM. Flawed logic? Perhaps in a lot of people's opinion, but availability beat out sexiness for me.
Was shooting this past Sunday afternoon from 1000 yards in a steady wind direction from 9 o/clock and wind was hitting 12 to 16 mph. Jeff was shooting his 6.5X47L using the 123 gr. Scenar using 37.5 Varget and was keeping them inside the Palma 10 ring using 13 MOA left windage. I was shooting my '06 using the 185 Berger VLD Target bullet shooting 54.0 grs. H4350 and was doing the same on the POI however the .30 caliber bullet only needed 8 MOA windage.
The Ole Warhorse ain't quite dead yet!
Beanland06 by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr
The Ole Warhorse ain't quite dead yet!
Beanland06 by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr
I'm glad this thread was revived...I was just reading a recent article asking if the .30-06 was dead, which made me think about the custom 06 that I had...
...but when I got engaged, we needed the money and it was sold, been regretting it ever since....its specs were:
Manners T4A
LW 50 #7 26 ss Barrel
Remington action - Blue printed and trued
Rifle Basix trigger
BO bottom metal
Seekins base and rings
PT&G Bolt
S&B PMII 4-16x50 w/ Premier Reticles Gen 2 XR
But since my wife said I could build another rifle, its now looking like its gonna be an 06 again, instead of one of the 6's
...but when I got engaged, we needed the money and it was sold, been regretting it ever since....its specs were:
Manners T4A
LW 50 #7 26 ss Barrel
Remington action - Blue printed and trued
Rifle Basix trigger
BO bottom metal
Seekins base and rings
PT&G Bolt
S&B PMII 4-16x50 w/ Premier Reticles Gen 2 XR
But since my wife said I could build another rifle, its now looking like its gonna be an 06 again, instead of one of the 6's
Man the thngs we do for women, sounds like she is a good one though Tundra. That is a bad ass rifle, I am really really liking that manners T4A stock lately, thinking about getting rid of my Mcrees and switching over on my 308 or 260.
Some of the loads posted here have me scratching my head...MontanaMarine is not included in that, I know he uses moly'd bullets...but some of the others using H4350.
My 30-06 is built for medium range (up to 600 yards) hunting...I use 168 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets loaded kissing the lands, 57.5 grains of H4350 in Lapua brass, 24" barrel....velocity is a very consistent 2,850 fps and accuracy is awesome.
I have loaded them up to very nearly 3,000 fps...but accuracy suffered.
I started out using Win brass...when I switched to Lapua I thought there would be a huge difference in case capacity...but it was only .5 grain....I use .5 less powder in the Lapua brass to get the same velocity.
I recently got to try this rifle at 1,000 yards for the first time...it performed much better than a custom 308 I used to have.
Its a Winchester model 70...its by far the best damn rifle I have ever owned, I had originally planned on rebarreling it to 280 AI but I made the mistake of shooting it and found the factory barrel to be one of those rare gems (really good factory barrel)...it stayed a 30-06, and I have no regrets.
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My 30-06 is built for medium range (up to 600 yards) hunting...I use 168 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets loaded kissing the lands, 57.5 grains of H4350 in Lapua brass, 24" barrel....velocity is a very consistent 2,850 fps and accuracy is awesome.
I have loaded them up to very nearly 3,000 fps...but accuracy suffered.
I started out using Win brass...when I switched to Lapua I thought there would be a huge difference in case capacity...but it was only .5 grain....I use .5 less powder in the Lapua brass to get the same velocity.
I recently got to try this rifle at 1,000 yards for the first time...it performed much better than a custom 308 I used to have.
Its a Winchester model 70...its by far the best damn rifle I have ever owned, I had originally planned on rebarreling it to 280 AI but I made the mistake of shooting it and found the factory barrel to be one of those rare gems (really good factory barrel)...it stayed a 30-06, and I have no regrets.
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Along those same lines....
These are chrono results...verified, not a chrono malfunction (same results on different chrono's on different days)....and I'm not the only person to see this happen in a 30-06....it didn't happen with Win brass, but is consistent in Lapua when using H4350....all aspects of the loading process are as consistent as modern tools can make them...I'm very careful and deliberate when loading ammo...and I use Redding National Match dies...seating depth is not the problem.
55....2699
55.5....2743
56....2737
56.5....2795
57....2789
57.5.....2850
Any explanation...anybody?
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You are scratching your head because you have a short pencil barrel on that rifle.
Shoot a rifle with a stainless steel match barrel with a heavier profile and add 4" to the length and you will be able to load 59 grains of H4350 behind that 168 and you will be driving tacks at 3050 fps.
I'm driving 208 Amax's at 2850 fps with VN160 with outstanding accuracy.
Think outside the factory rifle box.
Yeah, excess case capacity. Go back to the bottom of page 2 and read what I said.
You get numbers like that and your chrony is working, you have sloppy ammo.
Use those same charge weights but put a 190 SMK in the case. I shoot 190 VLD's out of a 28" barrel using 57 grains of H4350 in Lapua brass and I get 2950 FPS.
Thats not why I'm scratching my head...you misunderstood me completely...
I'm scratching my head over 57 grains under a 190 grain bullet...barrel profile has nothing to do with it...
And don't underestimate that factory pencil barrel...I kept it for a reason...yes, its nodes are different than a heavy barrel...but within the parameters for which it is intended (600 yards)...it just might humble you.
I had the budget to go as far as I wanted with this rifle...but didn't see the point in going further than is needed.
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Sounds reasonable...hadn't considered that.
At 57.5 grains the load is mildly compressed with the bullets I use...so if you're correct (and I believe you might be)...then my load should be fine as is.
I know the benefits of heavier bullets but really have no use for them in this rifle.
Wait a minute...
If its excess case capacity...why would it not happen with the Win brass? It has more capacity than the Lapua...
I realize this may well be a complicated physics question...but I've been curious about it for a year or so now (since it happened)
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If its excess case capacity...why would it not happen with the Win brass? It has more capacity than the Lapua...
I realize this may well be a complicated physics question...but I've been curious about it for a year or so now (since it happened)
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Seat them out longer with longer throated barrel, Win brass usually has the higher end of capacity, more than Lapua and many others. I am a Fan of the Model 70, my Featherweight shot 1/2 MOA but it Kicked the hell out of me. My &0 300 WSM shoote just as good but I put a brake on it and the barrel is a win heavy barrel.
They are seated to the lands...
The FN made Winchesters have tight chambers and short throats...like the FN SPR's...I have 2 of these Winchesters (mine and my sons), and both have short throats...you can jam well into the lands with plenty of room left in the mag...even with VLD's.
Edit: I just realized the tight chambers and short throats might be why I'm scratching my head over 57 grains under a 190 grain bullet...my rifle won't take that charge, I've played around with some 190's and got them to a very consistent and accurate 2,700 fps (pretty warm load, in my 24" barrel)...56 grains of H4350 in Lapua brass.
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The FN made Winchesters have tight chambers and short throats...like the FN SPR's...I have 2 of these Winchesters (mine and my sons), and both have short throats...you can jam well into the lands with plenty of room left in the mag...even with VLD's.
Edit: I just realized the tight chambers and short throats might be why I'm scratching my head over 57 grains under a 190 grain bullet...my rifle won't take that charge, I've played around with some 190's and got them to a very consistent and accurate 2,700 fps (pretty warm load, in my 24" barrel)...56 grains of H4350 in Lapua brass.
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My favorite combo, A Lefty 30.06 !Was shooting this past Sunday afternoon from 1000 yards in a steady wind direction from 9 o/clock and wind was hitting 12 to 16 mph. Jeff was shooting his 6.5X47L using the 123 gr. Scenar using 37.5 Varget and was keeping them inside the Palma 10 ring using 13 MOA left windage. I was shooting my '06 using the 185 Berger VLD Target bullet shooting 54.0 grs. H4350 and was doing the same on the POI however the .30 caliber bullet only needed 8 MOA windage.
The Ole Warhorse ain't quite dead yet!
Beanland06 by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr
Barrel profile has a lot to do with it. Harmonics in a heavier profile are less pronounced as they are in a thin barrel. A heavy barrel handles the pressure better, stainless tends to be "faster"...
I am not one who sets out to find a slow but accurate load. I believe in trying to do the best I can with powders and bullets that are available to come up with the fastest, most accurate load possible.
The greatest performance you can easily achieve is by increasing the barrel length and stepping up to a sendero/Remington Varmint profile. For joy of shooting the best thing you can do is add a brake. I know there are some traditionalists that will gasp a threading classic barrel but I prefer to be comfortable shooting. If you are comfortable when you shoot, you are a better shooter. I don't doubt your rifle is fantastic to 600, but a 30-06 can be fantastic to 1200. And when it is fantastic to 1200, it is also fantastic at 600 so why not have both?
I don't know what depth you seat your 168's at, I am lucky to get one caliber of depth in the neck and sometimes, it is even less with a 168 because (in my mind), they are way too short for a modern 30-06 and because I like to seat everything close to the lands. I use a Serengeti reamer in my -06's and it does not have a long throat, and I still have problems with 168's... At my depth for 168's, 57 grains is probably 95% of case capacity. Maybe even a bit less. Having said all that, I also think a 168 is also way too light of a bullet for a modern 30-06. 175's to 178's are my personal bare minimum.
I cant tell you why you did not have these issues with Winchester brass when there really is not that big of a difference between it's capacity and Lapua's to cause the situation you mention, I don't like Winchester brass because it is too inconsistent and does not last for shit for reloading but I do use it when I shoot some 208 and 215 recipes where I am using really slow powders like RL22 and I even have a scary accurate load using 63 grains of H1000 in Fire-formed Winchester brass. That is the only case I can get that much H1000 in with light compression. I know I said in a previous post RL22 is the slowest powder I would recommend for a 30-06, I discovered this H1000 load fucking around one day and just wanted to see what the crony numbers would be with H1000.. They turned out to be 2725 and 61 grains of RL22 Delivers 2800 in the same case (Berger 215).
I do want to add that I have also had some Winchester brass that had less case capacity than Lapua, They were Super-x marked cases and they weighed the same as LC match brass. I dont know Winchesters specs for their different cases but one thing is for sure, they have different cases for different applications. It reminds me of the difference between commodity Federal brass and their Gold Medal line. Two totally different cases.
I don't claim to know everything about shooting a 30-06, German Salazar could probably put me to shame but I do shoot 1000 to 1200 rounds of 30-06 a month, I shot 300 today.. So when it comes to what powder does what with what bullet, I doubt there is anyone on this forum hat has more experience with it than I do. I have literally tried every powder and every match type bullet suitable for a 30-06 case. My gunsmith finished a 30-06 for me in November and he is getting ready to order a new barrel for it because this 5 moth old barrel I shot today is 95% shot out... When you shoot that much, you know what works and what doesn't and what works better. I am just sharing that experience with you.
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And I do appreciate your sharing...very much so.
We have different purposes for our rifles...and therein lies the reason I didn't quite understand at first.
It was the brass taking the pressure I was wondering about...I got some pretty good ejector marks above 56 grains.
My seating depth is...hell, I can't remember the base to ogive measurement (not at home, truck driver)....but the OAL is ~3.34, which is SAAMI max, and kissing the lands.
The reason I use the 168 Ballistic Tips...l used them in the 308, for years....again, for hunting....I have several thousand of them, acquired over the years (buying them when I find them on sale)....they are extremely accurate and very effective deer bullets....even more accurate than Bergers (175, 185) in my rifle....its one of those "if it ain't broke" things.
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We have different purposes for our rifles...and therein lies the reason I didn't quite understand at first.
It was the brass taking the pressure I was wondering about...I got some pretty good ejector marks above 56 grains.
My seating depth is...hell, I can't remember the base to ogive measurement (not at home, truck driver)....but the OAL is ~3.34, which is SAAMI max, and kissing the lands.
The reason I use the 168 Ballistic Tips...l used them in the 308, for years....again, for hunting....I have several thousand of them, acquired over the years (buying them when I find them on sale)....they are extremely accurate and very effective deer bullets....even more accurate than Bergers (175, 185) in my rifle....its one of those "if it ain't broke" things.
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My primary 'Tactical' .30-'06 is an M70 with a sporter weight barrel that I bought used back in the mid '90's. I can't call it a Featherweight because it has an aftermarket stock (B&C?). I bought it along with five boxes of FGMM 168SMK Match, turned around back to the range and sighted it in.
The next morning it placed highly in a 300yd 'tactical' paper target match. It really likes that ammo, and I am fumbling around trying to find an equivalent handload. This process is becoming complicated by an exceptional Winter, my Wife's hip replacement, plus various and sundry (pleasant) family matters including one Granddaughter's HS graduation, and another's entry into Kindergarten, and an upcoming vacation trip to Georgia. Dang!
Greg
The next morning it placed highly in a 300yd 'tactical' paper target match. It really likes that ammo, and I am fumbling around trying to find an equivalent handload. This process is becoming complicated by an exceptional Winter, my Wife's hip replacement, plus various and sundry (pleasant) family matters including one Granddaughter's HS graduation, and another's entry into Kindergarten, and an upcoming vacation trip to Georgia. Dang!
Greg
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Like I said, some barrels handle pressure better than others. if you have a fast stainless barrel, that bullet can leave the bore "easier" than in a CM barrel so you will not get the same pressure curve. You get less of a spike.
The thing with the SAAMI spec... just because that 3.34 is the COAL of the spec does not mean your lands start just after that. The Ogive length is what is important and how far that is from the lands. I think you will find you have more room to play with.
That is a pretty piss poor excuse to trying something different.
If its a deer rifle and you have several thousand 168's, how long do you plan to live? 3 deer a year times 30 years is 90... add a couple rounds to check the scope each year... Id say you need 500 rounds to last you 30 years.Sounds like you have a target rifle that you occasionally use for deer and are stuck on 168....
You don't drive your truck in 2nd gear all the time do you? So why do that with your rifle?
Have you ever thought about retiring to Florida? We shoot year-round here.
Or at least spend the winter here so you can spend summer up there with your grand kids.
If I lived in New York I'd be looking for ANY reason to get the hell out of that nut-case state. The taxes alone..........
The past two years, my Wife has put a bunch of her money into fixing up the house; new roof, new siding, new porches, and some interior and plumbing accommodations for her mobility issues. Considering the market and the legislative climate, it's turning out to be questionable. Believe me, the upcoming vacation trip will also be something of a preliminary Recce to check out the ground and the realty situations.
Apologies for the topic detour.
Greg
Apologies for the topic detour.
Greg
Elite_KG - Sorry to have taken so long to reply - been spending all my time reading about 'scopes & drooling over Kahles K624i pics & specs.
I did finally get around to getting some chrono data on the 1st load I tried in this new '06, and found that it was only doing 2555fps with S175MKs. No wonder it took a 5 MOA come-up from 600 to 700yds....
I've had a couple of 8lb jugs of H100V sitting around for several years - never had found an application where it shot real well. But with all the guys who load 4350 in their '06s, and the fact that I don't have any 4350, and considering that Hodgdon's rate chart puts H100V right between H4350 & N550, I decided to try it with the 175s. Only load I've tried so far is 56.2grs with moly'd S175MKs in some old Win Super X & Super Speed cases with old nickel plated WLRs. Don't know what to make of the comment stating that Win makes different '06 brass for different applications - these cases weighed within less than a grain of each other, and ES with thrown charges is 26fps. The 56.2gr load is giving me 2830fps with the 175s out of the Bartlein 5R that I finished at 26", and accuracy is respectable at 600yds, the only distance I've tried it at to date.
I'm still looking forward to getting my hands on the Berger 185s (Hybrid & Juggernaut), and trying them with H100V, N160, AA3100, H4831, or anything else that looks promising. However, I've also committed to the purchase of a Kahles K624i, and could sure use some extra cash right about now....also just had a Sportsman STOL kit installed on my old '61 C150 that we converted to a taildragger, along with doing the O-320 Lycoming STC on....I may be selling several rifles in order to pay for all this foolishness.
I did finally get around to getting some chrono data on the 1st load I tried in this new '06, and found that it was only doing 2555fps with S175MKs. No wonder it took a 5 MOA come-up from 600 to 700yds....
I've had a couple of 8lb jugs of H100V sitting around for several years - never had found an application where it shot real well. But with all the guys who load 4350 in their '06s, and the fact that I don't have any 4350, and considering that Hodgdon's rate chart puts H100V right between H4350 & N550, I decided to try it with the 175s. Only load I've tried so far is 56.2grs with moly'd S175MKs in some old Win Super X & Super Speed cases with old nickel plated WLRs. Don't know what to make of the comment stating that Win makes different '06 brass for different applications - these cases weighed within less than a grain of each other, and ES with thrown charges is 26fps. The 56.2gr load is giving me 2830fps with the 175s out of the Bartlein 5R that I finished at 26", and accuracy is respectable at 600yds, the only distance I've tried it at to date.
I'm still looking forward to getting my hands on the Berger 185s (Hybrid & Juggernaut), and trying them with H100V, N160, AA3100, H4831, or anything else that looks promising. However, I've also committed to the purchase of a Kahles K624i, and could sure use some extra cash right about now....also just had a Sportsman STOL kit installed on my old '61 C150 that we converted to a taildragger, along with doing the O-320 Lycoming STC on....I may be selling several rifles in order to pay for all this foolishness.
Nope...no more room...the way I posted that it makes sense you would assume that though....more details, I didn't come to that seating depth by reading it in a book, I used a fired case, partially neck sized, put a bullet in it, put it in the half in the mag, half in the chamber (controlled round feed) and and closed the bolt...that one was at 3.4" before I closed the bolt on it...it came out measuring 3.38" with 4 very distinct land marks on it (4 groove rifling, those big wide lands leave no room for doubt)...those marks were pretty long so I repeated the process except this time I started out at 3.36"...that one came out still measuring 3.36" with slight marks from the lands (approximately .020" into the lands, measured the marks as accurately as I could with calipers), then I repeated the process again, this time at 3.35"...and again, there were marks from the lands but shorter...repeated it again at 3.34" and got no visible marks...tried it at 3.345", and had visible marks from the lands...that is with Nosler 168 grain Ballistic Tips...I also did the exact same thing with Berger 175 grain Hunting VLD's...and purely by coincidence, they also shoot best at ~3.34" OAL...but with them at that length they are further off the lands.
This was Berger 175 Hunting VLD's seated to 3.34" over 58 grains of H4350 in Win brass (2,775 fps)...old pics, from before I put the McMillan stock on it (bedded)...I was shooting these off shooting sticks, so its not my best effort...was too lazy to drag out the Bulls Bag that day.
These were shot the same day as above (same target, the above group is under the black "stick on" dot)...this is the 168 Ballistic Tips with 58 grains of H4350, 3.34", Win brass....
All the other holes in that target were shot with my rifle...but not with me pulling the trigger...my wife wanted to fire off a few....and after bedding the rifle into the McMillan, switching to Lapua brass, and Redding National Match Dies...the groups improved a little, 3 shots @ 100 is hard to measure...looks like one hole of about 40 caliber with either of the above loads...and yes, 3 round groups...it is after all a hunting rifle first and foremost.
That is a pretty piss poor excuse to trying something different.
Sounds like you have a target rifle that you occasionally use for deer and are stuck on 168....
A few years back I used to shoot a lot more than I do now...around 2-3,000 rounds per year (wore out a few 308 barrels and a 300 WM barrel)...I switched from local driving (shuttling auto parts) to heavy haul/oversize/super loads when the economy tanked in late 2008, these days I see home 3-4 times per year, spend most of my time in ND but I use my vacation (4 weeks) for deer season...I still have one 308, an AR10 that also likes those bullets, tried hunting with the AR10...too damn heavy and uncomfortable to carry, I still hunt on the ground a lot...spotting and stalking.
To continue that analogy....I drive my truck as hard as I need to to get where I need to be...no more, no less...which brings us back to our different uses for our rifles.
I have tried other bullets...many others...from 175 grain to 208 grain...Berger, Hornady, SMK's, Nosler Accubonds, and I have a box of 190 grain Nolser Long Range Accubonds but haven't loaded any of them yet....but for what I do with this rifle (hunt deer mostly, some bear, and hopefully elk someday)...that 168 BT does as good a job as any, and better than most.
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Forgot to mention...although the Berger 175's are just as accurate as the Noslers I hunt with...the terminal performance of the Bergers is not as good in the 30-06 as it is in the 300 mags...the Bergers do their thing (fragmenting) better when impact velocities are up around 2,000 fps. The Ballistic Tips do just fine down to 1,800 fps, and the new Nosler Accubond Long Range bullets that I have not tried yet are supposed to be good down to 1,300 fps...I have high hopes for the ABLR's, excellent BC, have shown to be accurate in other guys rifles...I just need time to work with them.
Ain't that the truth and she sure is.....Yea, i loved that stock, looking to get another one when I get this going...you wont regret it!
Love seeing the "tactical" .30-06's! I just love the round... Here is mine, fully blue printed and trued...
I often get asked when at the range, why .30-06? Then I tell them I can and have pushed a 190 grain bullet at 2850, some who reload gimme that yeah right look. I tell them about RL-22 and tell them to look for themselves. Then you see the surprised look. I also love to hear that "thunk" when it hits steel while my buddies who shoot .308s get that"tink"....
I often get asked when at the range, why .30-06? Then I tell them I can and have pushed a 190 grain bullet at 2850, some who reload gimme that yeah right look. I tell them about RL-22 and tell them to look for themselves. Then you see the surprised look. I also love to hear that "thunk" when it hits steel while my buddies who shoot .308s get that"tink"....
The 06 will always be a be a heavyweight round and the 308 will always be a light heavyweight that can't quite make the jump in weight class
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I asked this in the reloading section and didn't get much response. I would especially like to hear RHunter's opinions since I used his Serengeti reamer for my 06.
I have a bunch of H4831sc and would like to use it. I also have 178 Amaxes, and 208 Amaxes, but use the 208's for the Win Mag.
Barrel length is 26.5" #2 contour. Is the 178 on the light side for H4831sc? I also have H4350 and I know most use that powder over the 4831. If I load 190 SMK's or 208's, I'll definitely use the 4831.
Does anyone have any experience using 4831sc under the 178 Amax? Or am I driving 35mph in 5th gear...
Bill
I have a bunch of H4831sc and would like to use it. I also have 178 Amaxes, and 208 Amaxes, but use the 208's for the Win Mag.
Barrel length is 26.5" #2 contour. Is the 178 on the light side for H4831sc? I also have H4350 and I know most use that powder over the 4831. If I load 190 SMK's or 208's, I'll definitely use the 4831.
Does anyone have any experience using 4831sc under the 178 Amax? Or am I driving 35mph in 5th gear...
Bill
I haven't ran h4831sc under thr 178 but im loading 61.0gr under the 208. That is a full case and I have no pressure signs, velocity is right around 2700 with a 26" barlien. I think h4350 is going to be much better for the 178 if you want to maximize your velocity.
My primary meat rifle is a 30-06 Model 70 manufactured in 1938, all original including the front site hood. It's a 1 moa rifle with most stuff, a 3/4 moa rifle with a 150 gr Nosler BT over old fashioned IMR 4895 (still have a stash of the real stuff).
But when it comes to building a new rifle, I quite using factory 700s years ago and switched primarily to Stiller. And have no problems with the percieved stiffness issue of long actions, esspecially aftermarket, which I believe is a none issue with a quality pillar bedding job. I also got away from a heavier barrel than around a mid palma taper for a 26" or less barrel.
As far as bullets go, for other than hunting, loading less than 175 gr bullet is a waste in 30-06. An 06 will push 175s and up significantly faster than a .308. A lot of the "accuracy isssues" with the 30-06 vs the .308 were due to chamber design. The traditional 06 chambers had a 2 degree leade, the 308 a 1.5 degree leade which was much more suitable for match bullets.
Compared to other chamberings, yes the 300 Winmag pushes the same bullets faster but after a few 10 or 20 round strings, barrel life isn't looking so good. 7mm Remmag more so.
Do I have .308s too? Sure, including my latest F/TR, two AR10s, an L1A1, a 700P (the issues with this rifle being the reason my F/TR is built on a Stiller action which was good to go out of the box).
My best long range rifle? A fully custom 6.5 X 284 that is just plain magic.
But that old Winchester 06 would be the last rifle to ever leave my possession.
But when it comes to building a new rifle, I quite using factory 700s years ago and switched primarily to Stiller. And have no problems with the percieved stiffness issue of long actions, esspecially aftermarket, which I believe is a none issue with a quality pillar bedding job. I also got away from a heavier barrel than around a mid palma taper for a 26" or less barrel.
As far as bullets go, for other than hunting, loading less than 175 gr bullet is a waste in 30-06. An 06 will push 175s and up significantly faster than a .308. A lot of the "accuracy isssues" with the 30-06 vs the .308 were due to chamber design. The traditional 06 chambers had a 2 degree leade, the 308 a 1.5 degree leade which was much more suitable for match bullets.
Compared to other chamberings, yes the 300 Winmag pushes the same bullets faster but after a few 10 or 20 round strings, barrel life isn't looking so good. 7mm Remmag more so.
Do I have .308s too? Sure, including my latest F/TR, two AR10s, an L1A1, a 700P (the issues with this rifle being the reason my F/TR is built on a Stiller action which was good to go out of the box).
My best long range rifle? A fully custom 6.5 X 284 that is just plain magic.
But that old Winchester 06 would be the last rifle to ever leave my possession.
Simplifying my life. Reducing calibers. I recently got back a National Match Garand that I sold years ago. I'm buying a Remington 700 Long Range in 30-06 to match the Garand when they hit the shelves. Staying with 30-06 to reduce inventory of bullets, powders, bullets. I'm only shooting to 300yds (600 max in my state) so there would be more difference in individual rifles than caliber (06 vs 308)
Well if you don't like 30-06, you could try a 270 winchester! Took mine to a mile yesterday!! 165 grain matrix over 59.5. Grains of retumbo @ 2850 fps.
Elevation, 2400'
Temp, 75F
Wind, 5 mph full value @ 0300
Solution,
21 mills elevation
0.7 mills spin
Held 2 mils for wind
Elevation, 2400'
Temp, 75F
Wind, 5 mph full value @ 0300
Solution,
21 mills elevation
0.7 mills spin
Held 2 mils for wind
These days, the bulk of my effort is being expended on the .223, for reasons that relate most to economy and availability of the goods.
When I went through Parris Island in early 1966, we trained on the M-14, which became our issue combat arm as we shipped out to see the elephant.
But before then, we did our Infantry training with the M1 Garand, and the M1 and M14 have each vied for my service rifle preference ever since. While I still can't choose between them, when times got tough, it was the M1A that got sold. My Garand lives on, and comes out to frolic when the zephyr winds play.
I owned an M1903 for awhile, but I was undergoing Cancer treatment at the time, and the rifle was simply too light in weight for me to handle the '06 on its frame. Nowadays, for different reasons, the '03 would still be beyond my capacity.
What I might like to do is to come up with a modern rifle that emulated the basic concepts, sights, etc., behind the 03A1; only chambered in .308 or maybe .260 Rem. I'm thinking it would probably end up looking something like an XTC rifle.
Greg
When I went through Parris Island in early 1966, we trained on the M-14, which became our issue combat arm as we shipped out to see the elephant.
But before then, we did our Infantry training with the M1 Garand, and the M1 and M14 have each vied for my service rifle preference ever since. While I still can't choose between them, when times got tough, it was the M1A that got sold. My Garand lives on, and comes out to frolic when the zephyr winds play.
I owned an M1903 for awhile, but I was undergoing Cancer treatment at the time, and the rifle was simply too light in weight for me to handle the '06 on its frame. Nowadays, for different reasons, the '03 would still be beyond my capacity.
What I might like to do is to come up with a modern rifle that emulated the basic concepts, sights, etc., behind the 03A1; only chambered in .308 or maybe .260 Rem. I'm thinking it would probably end up looking something like an XTC rifle.
Greg
You forgot some thing, they both work very well. The 30.06 from 1903 and 308 from the 50's. I know if it isn't new it cant work. So give us a break.
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