Why not- how about we start a Project Appleseed thread for 2024

[LuckyDuck]

Is anyone planning on attending a Project Appleseed shoot for 2024? I shot my first one over Patriot's Day weekend last April and enjoyed my time doing so (and was able to bring in some coworkers to tag along with me which I reckon if I was being fair only added to my positive experience). I received a 'cool' patch somewhere for participating over Patriot's Day& got an equally nice shirt but fell just short of walking home with the "Rifleman" patch once the weekend concluded. I really don't have any major complaints over the weekend and think that they're doing good work- especially knowing that all of the folks that make it happen are volunteers. But the reason for this post is I can't help but want to try again this year if for no other reason than I want to get that silly "rifleman" patch. Anyone else here feel the same way?

-LD

 

[LuckyDuck]

I'll bump my own thread as long as it's kosher with the Mod's here. I figured that I could take this opportunity to explain my previous experience from last year's Appleseed should anyone be interested. It was the standard 25m event and I chose to run my 20" Colt AR with iron sights which I'd purchased to justify adding another in my stable. I kept a similar model from WW as my backup even though the WW seemed to produce tighter groups prior to the Applessed The Colt AR performed without any issues which was interesting to me as I was the only one shooting centerfire that weekend. The other 15 or so folks were all running rimfire rifles, most of which/if not all were running optics of some sort and goodness gracious I saw a lot of those rimfire starting to go down like the Titanic even on the first day.

I'd have to believe most of those problems were operator error but dang it was quite a sight to see. Anywho back to my point- I experienced some wild shifts in the POI running the cotton sling that's essentially the #1 tool that Appleseed stands by. I don't take myself that seriously on the internet but the best score I was able to produce for the AQT was 187 on Sunday. So essentially missed getting that darned 'Rifleman' patch by a few shots which is frankly the motivation of this post.

Positional shooting- standing, sitting/kneeling, and prone with a sling may be falling out of favor and not blow anyone's 'skirt up' but dang don't I want that stupid piece of cloth saying "Rifleman". As I alluded to, I was impressed with the volunteer instructors that weekend and if anyone out there in cyberspace has been sitting on the fence- go ahead and sign up for a local Appleseed and even if you don't learn anything about positional shooting (Think you will) you'll likely walk away from the event with more knowledge of the Revolutionary War with Britton. That in itself is likely a good thing to see where we came from as a nation.

-LD

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Agreed solid weekend of learning and enjoyment.

I suspect the reason for the failures is this is a beginner class. A lot of folks that show up day 1 usually know their way around a rifle, likely have shooting experience & probably have some fun stickers on their vehicle.

Very quickly you realize most people don’t know as much as they get think they do.

I think it’s a wonderful program and recommend it to everyone.

I hope you get your Rifleman patch in 2024. I got mine, it’s kinda silly how happy I was when I earned it.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Agreed solid weekend of learning and enjoyment.

I suspect the reason for the failures is this is a beginner class. A lot of folks that show up day 1 usually know their way around a rifle, likely have shooting experience & probably have some fun stickers on their vehicle.

Very quickly you realize most people don’t know as much as they get think they do.

I think it’s a wonderful program and recommend it to everyone.

I hope you get your Rifleman patch in 2024. I got mine, it’s kinda silly how happy I was when I earned it.

Thank you sir. I personally was a bit surprised how rusty I'd become using the sling as a shooting aid as I've been relying on bipods & shooting bags for the type of shooting I've typically been doing for quite some time. I went in thinking I'd be a shoo in for the rifleman patch on the first day but the rust was thicker than I was aware of and needed to be knocked off. I did learn or hear at least the stories from Lexington & Concord about the "3 Strikes of the Match" throughout the weekend, got to examine a period correct flintlock & bayonet from that era as well as clothing (uniform doesn't seem like the correct term for militia), and (accuracy of that type of account will always be disputed with historical/original records but they do hold their own unique value) hear about some personal experiences from that time from the participants, and on top of everything else got to burn through several hundred rounds of ammo with likeminded people over a weekend.

Not a bad use of... something like $70 if I remember right for two full days of range time/instruction on (if nothing else) an alternative way of doing things in my own opinion. But keeping myself honest, the best I managed on Sunday was as I mentioned earlier was a score of 187 out of the 210(?) I think was needed once I started getting things dialed in but I'm ok with that. I'll keep at it if for no other reason that it irritates/motivates me to regain that skillset to keep in my toolbox should I need to reacquaint myself with proper use of iron sights and/or take the plunge into High Power/Garand matches or something along those lines. As anglers often say, a bad day spent fishing still beats a good day at work.

-LD

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I've always been an advocate of sling use for shooting and love the Project Appleseed concept. Late last year I returned to focusing on using the sling as the primary support and quickly learned that rifle set up needs to be different compared to when running a typical bipod and rear bag arrangement. Not only that but the body needs to get used to the contortions and positioning of body parts required to get into stable positions with the sling. When I started doing it again it'd been a while since I'd really looped up and I was pretty sore after the first couple range sessions. After some dry firing at home and making some adjustments, my body got used to the positioning, the gun felt more stable, and pretty soon I could be relatively "comfortable" in position.

I know they have their affinity for the cotton web sling but I've been having some good success with the Magpul Rifleman Loop Sling in practice. I've shot two AQT courses of fire using it with pretty good results, I think I'd have fun at an event, unfortunately any Appleseed events close enough to me that wouldn't require a hotel stay are months out, hopefully I'll be able to go when the time comes.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

I've always been an advocate of sling use for shooting and love the Project Appleseed concept. Late last year I returned to focusing on using the sling as the primary support and quickly learned that rifle set up needs to be different compared to when running a typical bipod and rear bag arrangement. Not only that but the body needs to get used to the contortions and positioning of body parts required to get into stable positions with the sling. When I started doing it again it'd been a while since I'd really looped up and I was pretty sore after the first couple range sessions. After some dry firing at home and making some adjustments, my body got used to the positioning, the gun felt more stable, and pretty soon I could be relatively "comfortable" in position.

I know they have their affinity for the cotton web sling but I've been having some good success with the Magpul Rifleman Loop Sling in practice. I've shot two AQT courses of fire using it with pretty good results, I think I'd have fun at an event, unfortunately any Appleseed events close enough to me that wouldn't require a hotel stay are months out, hopefully I'll be able to go when the time comes.

I didn’t care for the stretch in the cotton sling. Ended up getting this sling from Turner:

https://turnersaddlery.com/ts/product/national-match-service-rifle-all-weather-sling-aws/

 

[Trigger Monkey]

That's funny, I was looking at those to have something more traditional but without the upkeep of leather. How do you like it?

 

[JoeZ]

So to answer the OP, I have already attended an Appleseed this year as I instruct at them. Please feel free to ask questions.

About the rimfire, so I was an instructor before rimfire was allowed at Appleseed and I was against it when they were introduced. Appleseed was a 308 battle rifle group in the beginning and we even looked down on the 556 (mouse gun and all). In retrospect, the 22rf saved Appleseed as most people are unwilling to spend the money.

Rimfire rifles fail often for a variety of reasons, and mostly it's the operator. Improper lube, improper hold (yes, that's a thing), cheap bulk ammo, poor scope positioning/mounting, etc. We can usually get folks back up and running, but not always.

I'm partial to the older thicker nylon slings myself, but not the new nylon as they are too slippery.

A shooter had a Magpul sling at the shoot in Feb. His quicktach was only on the side so he didn't benefit much as sling tension caused lots of can't. I showed him how to run it as a two point carry/transition to ready but that isn't as stable as the USGI in standing. Maybe I'm mistaken and if so, someone could show me how Magpul intends that sling to be used.

One shooter had an Armageddon sling which is used as a 2 point with elastic to your back so standing is tight but it also has a loop built in so the shooter can quickly transition to the loop in seated or prone.

 

[JoeZ]

I've always been an advocate of sling use for shooting and love the Project Appleseed concept. Late last year I returned to focusing on using the sling as the primary support and quickly learned that rifle set up needs to be different compared to when running a typical bipod and rear bag arrangement. Not only that but the body needs to get used to the contortions and positioning of body parts required to get into stable positions with the sling. When I started doing it again it'd been a while since I'd really looped up and I was pretty sore after the first couple range sessions. After some dry firing at home and making some adjustments, my body got used to the positioning, the gun felt more stable, and pretty soon I could be relatively "comfortable" in position.

The rifle set-ups are very different, but the same rifle can do both. For Appleseed an AR needs the scope ocular lens to be about an inch forward of the charge handle and a full length (or extended) stock. Touch the charge handle with your nose (as an index) and set your eye relief and height to that. (think plastic prone green army man) To use that same rifle on a bench or prone on a bipod the stock needs to be collapsed in to maintain eye relief and place the shooter straight behind the rifle.

The body's inability or unwillingness to stretch is an issue. I recommend building the position first, ignoring the target, and once the position is built and as comfortable as you can make it, now pivot the whole body, around the elbow until your on target.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

That's funny, I was looking at those to have something more traditional but without the upkeep of leather. How do you like it?

I love it!

I haven’t used leather or cotton since I got this….11 years and it still looks new and it felt “broken in” on day 1.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Nice, I like the sound of that, I think I'm going to grab one in Dark Brown.

@JoeZ, have you seen anyone using a data book or taking notes at Appleseed Events to track progress, scores, or take notes on shooting positions? I saw that Impact Data Books makes an Appleseed specific data book and it sparked my curiosity, so much so that I made my own version so that I could log ammo info, zeroes, and scores on practice AQT targets.

 

[Romeo458]

Took my nephew to one years ago. We both learned something new. Both got the patch too.

 

[JoeZ]

Some few do take notes. You also should have gotten the Appleseed Guide handout. It has the event POI boiled down to the critical parts. Also, check out Appleseed Prep on YouTube as a refresher. An instructor posted what you went through.

I also bought the Impact Data book to check it out. It has a bit more in it than we will cover at an Appleseed, and some of the info in it is not from the Project Appleseed, but it is a printed form so you'll always have it.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Interesting, it sounds like the Impact Data Book had more info in it than I thought. When I made a data book for my Liberty Training Rifle I created pages that would allow me to true the LR aperture on the Tech Sights, log shots and scores on the AQT, as well as some typical shot data pages for when I was working different shooting positions or zeroing new ammo. I made them so that I could print them out on standard printer paper and cut them out at home.

It may not fit all use cases but a few examples of the sheets are below:

 

[LuckyDuck]

Thought I'd share my experience with equipment/general tips I picked up from the 25m match from last year and hope it may help others out or at least give something to think of about while preparing. I'll say that the "How to prepare" document that they have on their website I found to be very comprehensive. A lot of the folks that I saw struggling either failed to read that or follow the recommendations outright and could have avoided the majority of the problems I saw just by simply following the guide that they make available. Maybe that's a list in its own right of what NOT to do/bring if you want to enjoy the weekend. But anywho- here's some quick takeaways I remember from last year.

The GOOD:

-Hydration. Beginning the night beforehand I had drank plenty of water and brought along a 64oz thermos with Gatorade along with a small cooler with mostly water, a soda or two, and my lunch. I don't recall ever getting to the soda but was thankful that I was able to drink throughout the day without worrying about trying to ration it out. I was a bit surprised with how many folks were not out there drinking water/having to take advantage of the bathroom breaks.

-Tylenol/whatever your favorite equivalent is. I think I picked this tip up ahead of time from other forums that it was recommended to take some Tylenol throughout the day and I took some in the morning, at lunch, and in the evening without any soreness issues. I know some of the other folks were hitting me up halfway through the first day for some Tylenol from me so I'd repeat this strategy at my next event.

-Identifying tape of some sort. This is another trick I likely picked up on the forums ahead of my event. Essentially if you pick up something along the lines of a 'loud' patterned duct tape (even the silver would likely work fine) and apply it somewhere visible but out of the way of the targets, it'll not only help you identify your own target but also serves as a deterrent from your neighbors on the firing line mistaking your target for there's. There were a number of instances I saw where that was a problem and I didn't have any issue and found it to be worth the extra time of placing a marker on the edges of the paper.

-Shooting mat. I was very pleased with the one I brought along with me and being that I was the only one at the event shooting centerfire, I was placed at the far side of the firing line and was able to sit an extra one up on its side which worked very well keeping my brass in one place. I believe that the instructors had enough to cover the folks that didn't have a shooting mat but there was a noticeable number that didn't pick up on that being pretty essential gear to bring along. I know the alternative suggestion from Appleseed is a carpet remnant but I'd say you'd be much better served buying the $35 one from their website which was surprisingly nice for the money.

-Showing up with the rifle in shooting condition. I'll keep it simple and just say having everything lubed up from the get go is the way to go. It seemed like another chunk of folks showed up with guns pulled out of the safe that hadn't been cleaned before they got there nor had seen any oil/lubricant applied in quite some time. There's a lot of other rifle-specific setup mistakes but since I'm trying to keep it gear/tip focused I'll just leave it at that.

-Proper Hat and sunscreen. My Tilley was just what I needed for the weekend. I'm fair skinned and the sun hurts me. Having a hat with a broad brim kept the sun off of my face and the brass from my neighbor off of me as well. I pulled through the whole weekend without brass or sun burns and would have been up the proverbial creek had I not brought & worn one as there wasn't any shade to hide under throughout the weekend.

-Handi Wipes/Hand sanitizer. It sure is nice to be able to clean the dirt, oils, and whatever else you have on your hands before you dig into your food. I wouldn't plan on having facilities to wash your hands, the venue I was at didn't and I was very happy that I thought to bring these along so I wasn't injesting CLP with my sandwich/snacks. If you like to add a splash of CLP to your meals in lieu of hot sauce then your mileage may vary on this tip.

This is getting rather long so I'll add what I'd change/undecided on in another post and will update this should I think of any other gear tips or tricks to add.


-LD

 

[LuckyDuck]

What gear/tips I'm UNDECIDED on:

-A Tarp. This may be more specific to the location but mine sat in my vehicle and never did see the need for it. I'd likely skip worrying about bringing this next time.

-Elbow Pads. Another one that may be reliant on a number of variables. Shooting in the grass and on a padded mat these didn't seem to add much value to me in those conditions. I did pick up a nice pair of pads geared towards basketball or volleyball (can't remember which) that have a soft pad rather than a hard plastic pad like you'd see on elbow pads for say bicycling and in that regard I chose well for being the correct style for the application at hand but knowing what I know now I probably would have saved the money. That said, if you don't know if you're shooting on concrete/gravel or something similar- it's still fairly inexpensive insurance. Since I have them now, I'll probably bring them along but don't know if I'll try shooting with them on all weekend.

-Bug Spray. Wasn't needed for my match but that may be a different story if shooting during other months. I'll likely keep them in the bag since it doesn't add any weight/space to be concerned about.

-Notepad. This may be slightly controversial but while I'll keep the pens/sharpie with me I don't know if I'd bother with a dedicated notepad for my purposes. I was able to use the handout they give to jot down notes in the white space and could likely supplement it with an index card or two but to thy own self be true, if you're prone to taking lots of notes, feel free to bring one along but I'm always looking to optimize what I have to prep/bring/carry so for me this will likely be replaced with 2 index cards.

-Trashbag/Towel. The idea behind this recommendation is to keep the sun, precipitation, sand/dirt, etc. I brought one along but at least here in my AO, I'm not worried about blowing sand, don't care if my rifle is in the rain/snow since it's going to get just as wet while you shoot anyway and I can always place it under a shooting mat for shade. So for me, while I understand the idea for the recommendation but it just doesn't seem to bring much to the table for me and probably won't be joining me next time.

-Backup Rifle. Never needed it and it's just more to bring/clean/etc. I'd likely be just as well served with a spare parts kit. Still on the fence with this one.


What gear/tips I know I'll CHANGE:

-Push pins/Staple gun. Wasn't needed as they supplied the thumbtacks and this was just extra weight in the bag.

-Rifle Cleaning Supplies/Cleaning Kit. I had a small OTIS kit along for the ride but never needed it and can't see needing it over a 400 round or so weekend especially considering the rifle will be cleaned beforehand. I'll keep a bottle of CLP with me but the cleaning kit needn't tag along.

-Magazines. The 20 round magazines were great but I brought too many of them. I probably had around 8 or with the idea that I'd be able to prep a number of them but aside from shooting the ACT, the number of rounds kept changing on what we were instructed to load and it became difficult keeping things straight on which mags had how many rounds to either down load or up load so that plan went by in a hurry. Moving forward I'll probably stick with only bringing 4.

-Ammunition. I was fine with the PMC 5.56 I brought and made the right call by storing them loose in an ammo box but I was hauling around a half case of ammo both days and that wasn't necessary. I think I'll make a small tweak to using a smaller ammo can and just topping it off at lunch or during one of the breaks if needed but will keep most of the extra ammo in the truck to avoid carrying them when not necessary. YMMV if shooting rimfire as far as if you want to take them out of the box but I'd highly recommend bringing a speed loader for rimfire and save your thumbs as that turned into a bigger deal for some folks than I had issues with using the 5.56.

-Lunch/Snacks. I'll likely take a smaller sandwich as the 12" sub was too much on either day and pack more things like beef sticks/jerky/nuts and not bother with Hershey bars/chips and other similar junk food for snacks.


I reckon that's everything off the top of my head. Hope that helps someone.

-LD

 

[308pirate]

check out Appleseed Prep on YouTube as a refresher. An instructor posted what you went through.

What's your take on the appleseed pistol program?

I've watched one go on at my gun club and saw very little emphasis on actual instruction. I think the "instructors" I saw don't really know shit from shinola about how to really shoot a pistol.

 

[LuckyDuck]

What's your take on the appleseed pistol program?

I've watched one go on at my gun club and saw very little emphasis on actual instruction. I think the "instructors" I saw don't really know shit from shinola about how to really shoot a pistol.

I sincerely hope that my assessment is inaccurate sir but the way you carry about outside of the Pit and the tone of your posts in the other forums, within the context of this thread specifically, suggests the equivalent of someone that claims to have dined in a Michelin rated restaurant and has made it their personal mission in life to use all of their free time to visit the local soup kitchens to pontificate how the food quality that the volunteers are serving are beneath your refined culinary tastes. And somehow in your mind, this makes you feel superior. I'd humbly suggest you do a little bit of soul searching on this comment and try to determine what kind of validation you are lacking & are seeking to feel whole. As a suggestion- maybe if you took a little bit out of your time to back up your attitude to explain the volunteer work you provide in that discipline that'd at least help how you come across to others.

@JoeZ I would also be interested in learning about the appleseed pistol program's goals outside of what's already posted on their website if you have it handy & the time. If not that's ok- appreciate you volunteering your free time to the program regardless.

-LD

 

[308pirate]

I sincerely hope that my assessment is inaccurate sir but the way you carry about outside of the Pit and the tone of your posts in the other forums, within the context of this thread specifically, suggests the equivalent of someone that claims to have dined in a Michelin rated restaurant and has made it their personal mission in life to use all of their free time to visit the local soup kitchens to pontificate how the food quality that the volunteers are serving are beneath your refined culinary tastes. And somehow in your mind, this makes you feel superior. I'd humbly suggest you do a little bit of soul searching on this comment and try to determine what kind of validation you are lacking & are seeking to feel whole. As a suggestion- maybe if you took a little bit out of your time to back up your attitude to explain the volunteer work you provide in that discipline that'd at least help how you come across to others.

@JoeZ I would also be interested in learning about the appleseed pistol program's goals outside of what's already posted on their website if you have it handy & the time. If not that's ok- appreciate you volunteering your free time to the program regardless.

-LD

It's an accurate observation of what I saw. It's 95 fucking dollars for an appleseed pistol clinic. The attendees at the one I watched were robbed of their money, they just don't know it.

So no, I don't give a shit how it comes across.

If you're going to teach, have some subject matter expertise. If you don't, call it entertainment instead of training.

 

[JoeZ]

I went through an Appleseed Pistol shoot as a student and passed the "Pistoleer" test.

It is a strange hybrid between speed shooting and bullseye. The speed tests are controlled doubles (as opposed to double taps) and just a flat out 10rnds/ 10 sec. The "slow fire" portion is very small targets.

Some cons are it's not a CCW class, and there is no draw from holsters. There is not movement while firing, and there is only standing position. It's not really a self defense class.

The one or two handed grip is what I've seen at the few other courses I've taken.

The material seems comprehensive enough to get you through the test, which is challenging.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

It's an accurate observation of what I saw. It's 95 fucking dollars for an appleseed pistol clinic. The attendees at the one I watched were robbed of their money, they just don't know it.

So no, I don't give a shit how it comes across.

If you're going to teach, have some subject matter expertise. If you don't, call it entertainment instead of training.

Which day did you catch it on? 2nd day does not have a lot of instruction and is usually an AQT target grind with some misc refinement instruction here and there. Almost all the instruction on the pistolseed I attended was on the first day. It is geared towards newbies: how to hold single and double grip, NPOA, how to present, index centerline, controlled pairs, different types of mag changes and malfunction clearing drills for different failures. Basic safety is always covered. There is NO holster work, everything is off a table you stand behind. Distance 7 meters or yards, cant remember which.

Being a pistol newbie I got a lot out of it, enough to go try some USPSA style matches. What I was taught in appleseed was useful for the matches. I still need a lot of work, but find it rewarding enough to go again

Pistolseeds are relatively new to appleseed, 2nd year I think. Their rifle program is very well dialed down and is the best beginner/intro to 3 position shooting I've experienced. They are also pretty rigorous in how their instructors teach, every rifle clinic I've been to has been almost a copy of the previous clinic in what is taught and how it is taught. Pistolseed program may be going through some growing pains as it gets polished and finalised.

I've Been to much more expensive rifle instruction classes that did not cover half of what appleseed covers in their 2 day rifle clinic, and to be frank I was pretty disappointed that a "big name" class I attended didn't even cover NPOA or breathing techniques and was marketed towards beginners. I paid 5x what Appleseed costs and got maybe 1/10 of that value, yea it was that bad (basically a local swat guy filling in for the missing big name and prone shooting, and off a vehicle hood at paper target practice, no real instruction outside of "breathe in and focus" WTF???, waste of $$$)

Compare that to where I have seen a brand new shooter at an appleseed clinic shooting beachball size groups (if they hit their own target) learn and get proficient enough to be shooting 2-3" groups at the end of the next day. I consider that a big win for the 2A all around. I always drag 1-3 friends, coworkers, neighbors a couple times a year to Appleseed events. Everyone says they had a good time and would like to shoot more. I think its a great program that advances shooting sports in a positive way with some great history lessons on how our country was founded.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I didn't know Appleseed added a Pistol qual. In late 2007 I did it with rifle after not shooting for a couple of years. A retired Navy Distinguished Rifleman was one of the instructors and had me bring out all of my gear and got me tuned back up for the Sunday shoot. I think it was $25. A few years ago someone wanted to run one at our club and we were pretty supportive until he said he was charging $90 a shooter and wanted to use our range.

 

[JoeZ]

The pistol seed is pretty new. It is more popular and has been around longer down south, our first one in WI is March.

 

[LuckyDuck]

It's an accurate observation of what I saw. It's 95 fucking dollars for an appleseed pistol clinic. The attendees at the one I watched were robbed of their money, they just don't know it.

So no, I don't give a shit how it comes across.

If you're going to teach, have some subject matter expertise. If you don't, call it entertainment instead of training.

I get it- I really do. You're some kind of USPSA master shooter and your opinion means more than anyone else here can contribute. And your USPSA expertise carries over to every other sub-forum that exists and ever should exist on this website right? You don't give a shit and that's evident- but how about you place your ego aside- just this once, and let some adults talk about a program that's actually trying to make a difference without insulting the very same people that devote their own personal time as volunteers to promoting this effort? If you think the pistol portion of Project Appleseed isn't up to your high standard then how about you match the very same people that you're insulting tonight with your own time to make the results better like everyone you've been insulting? Something to think about at least right?

-LD


As for everyone else- my sincere apologies for this divergence on what we've been trying to talk about. Sometimes you just need to call a troll out for what they are so that the adults can get back to the original discussion.

-LD

 

[308pirate]

I get it- I really do. You're some kind of USPSA master shooter and your opinion means more than anyone else here can contribute. And your USPSA expertise carries over to every other sub-forum that exists and ever should exist on this website right? You don't give a shit and that's evident- but how about you place your ego aside- just this once, and let some adults talk about a program that's actually trying to make a darn without insulting the very same people that devote their own personal time as volunteers to promoting this effort? If you think the pistol portion of Project Appleseed isn't up to your high standard then how about you match the very same people that you're insulting tonight with your own time to make the results better like everyone you've been insulting? Something to think about at least right?

-LD


As for everyone else- my sincere apologies for this divergence on what we've been trying to talk about. Sometimes you just need to call a troll out for what they are so that the adults can get back to the original discussion.

-LD

It's gratifying to know that I live rent-free in your head

 

[308pirate]

how about you match the very same people that you're insulting tonight with your own time to make the results better like everyone you've been insulting?

I actually enjoy teaching people how to shoot.

I do it from my own playbook not someone else's.

I also don't do it for free when the students have to pay so applseed's owner can make bank from my free labor.

Lol fuck that shit

 

[JoeZ]

I also don't do it for free when the students have to pay so applseed's owner can make bank from my free labor.

The Project Appleseed is run by a 501.3.c not for profit. It in fact lost money/relied on donations for at least a decade. It was pretty lean for a while and there have been quite a few budget cuts; travel expenses, instructor meals, etc.

It is a corporation started by Jack Daily (AKA "Fred") who has since turned over control to an operational committee of long time Appleseed instructors. It's laughable to accuse ol' Fred of milking people when he put so much into it himself.

I fully understand Appleseed has flaws. That it is made up of flawed men. That its mission may be doomed. Lot's of men deride what we do as a justification for inaction. "Oh I just teach folks myself" and that's great if you actually do but it really is mostly just blah, blah, rabble, rabble, bark, bark.

As for Appleseed not being perfect, perfection prevents accomplishment, good enough gets it done. 4 moa isn't perfect, it's good enough. Teaching the skill itself is in fact the secondary goal. A mind set needs changing. Young and middle aged men come to us to learn to shoot. What took them so long to even try? Worse yet, they most certainly will not persist when you are not there. Something is wrong in American men's motivation, desire to be at liberty. That is what Appleseed tries to be the remedy for. We attempt a true awakening, a motivation, a sense of gratitude for what was given us and an urge to be worthy of the founding generations sacrifice, and mostly because our innocent posterity needs us to do this. The will must be engaged, and the intellect directed to the truth to give the will a proper course of action. That is the Project Appleseed.

 

[JoeZ]

If you're going to teach, have some subject matter expertise. If you don't, call it entertainment instead of training.

The Project Appleseed instructors must shoot rifleman score and then go through 200 hrs of training before they get the Red Hat (full instructor).

The Shoot Bosses need an additional 40hrs to run a shoot.

The Shoot Boss of a Full Distance shoot must fd qualify.

The Pistol Instructors must be a Red Hat, shoot pistoleer score, and must pass a pistol specific instructor boot camp.

The average term of an instructor is like 3 years. It's not very rewarding, folks burn out.

 

[JoeZ]

@JoeZ I would also be interested in learning about the appleseed pistol program's goals outside of what's already posted on their website if you have it handy & the time. If not that's ok- appreciate you volunteering your free time to the program regardless.

-LD

If this thread isn't answering your questions, I can get you in contact with one of our pistol instructors from down south.

 

[LuckyDuck]

If this thread isn't answering your questions, I can get you in contact with one of our pistol instructors from down south.

Thank you for the offer, I'll keep that in mind. I mainly was hoping to have an open discussion and bring awareness to the Project since the season is upon us for 2024. Appreciate all you do for the program.

-LD

 

[308pirate]

The Project Appleseed instructors must shoot rifleman score and then go through 200 hrs of training before they get the Red Hat (full instructor).

The Shoot Bosses need an additional 40hrs to run a shoot.

The Shoot Boss of a Full Distance shoot must fd qualify.

The Pistol Instructors must be a Red Hat, shoot pistoleer score, and must pass a pistol specific instructor boot camp.

The average term of an instructor is like 3 years. It's not very rewarding, folks burn out.

LOL

 

[Trigger Monkey]

What is the 200 hour curriculum like? How long on average does it take to complete?

 

[LuckyDuck]

That's certainly a question for @JoeZ

 

[Old Man with Gun]

What's your take on the appleseed pistol program?

I've watched one go on at my gun club and saw very little emphasis on actual instruction. I think the "instructors" I saw don't really know shit from shinola about how to really shoot a pistol.

I have taught at about a dozen events, only one was pistol. Regardless of the type of event, the quality of instruction is usually very good from a core group and can varry widely with the rest. The process that takes a new volunteer from orange hat to red has less to do with their talent at instruction than the ability to learn and repeat their way of doing things. All know what to tell you, not all can diagnose and adjust to the shooter though.
The pistol program is relatively new, so there is an experience gap between it and rifle for many instructors, even shoot bosses.
That said, it is a basic class, in my opinion, more basic than the rifle. To me it feels like national couldn't decide if it should be precision or action and fell short on both. It is a good introduction to pistol and exposure to technique. If it goes beyond it is because of what your instructor knows in addition to Appleseed.

 

[JoeZ]

The 200 hrs is mostly attending the minimum of 6 weekend shoots as an instructor in training, completing the written and oral work sheet for your level and there are some hours in homework/study and reading the instructor manual and watching the Appleseed Academy videos on each specific POI. The practical portions take quite some time (most of the hours), but working on presentation of material and presentation of the history, while not a lot of hours, takes several shoots to accomplish. Besides the shoots, most state coordinators require attendance at an IBC (instructor boot camp), so that's an additional weekend.

It's not hard to do but you have to be persistent. The program is hard on instructors but it was meant to be. The principle of self improvement, be it personal or national, is not easy. The pre-Appleseed JoeZ would never have gotten up in front of a group and tried to convince them of anything. By the grace of God, Appleseed has improved me and I try to pass that along.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Meaning no disrespect but

I have to bend functioning idiots to my will day in and day out at my day job.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Meaning no disrespect but

View attachment 8363253

I have to bend functioning idiots to my will day in and day out at my day job.

And this contributes to the Project Appleseed thread how...?

-LD

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Is that rhetorical?

I expressed my opinion in regards to the lengthy process to be an Appleseed Instructor and I said meaning no disrespect.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Is that rhetorical?

I expressed my opinion in regards to the lengthy process to be an Appleseed Instructor and I said meaning no disrespect.

Yep- rhetorical for sure- we need a BabylonBee tag to flag posts here that are satire- Carry on sir-

-LD

 

[Trigger Monkey]

 

[308pirate]

Yep- rhetorical for sure- we need a BabylonBee tag to flag posts here that are satire- Carry on sir-

-LD

LOL I guess you got your comeuppance

 

[LuckyDuck]

The March 2024 version of the "Liberty Pole" which is essentially a monthly newsletter that Project Appleseed started up a year or so ago was recently published. Current release can be accessed below should anyone be interested.

https://cdn.mc-weblink.sg-mktg.com/...9fN4KjJosY1e4TEL2xma2HcETeloDVBJd660lE8yAEcf1

-LD

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Got signed up for another Appleseed, taking a buddy along who’s new to the hobby.

I always enjoy the events and feel like there’s always something I can improve.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Got signed up for another Appleseed, taking a buddy along who’s new to the hobby.

I always enjoy the events and feel like there’s always something I can improve.

Do you know what you'll be shooting yet? Rimfire/centerfire?

-LD

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Do you know what you'll be shooting yet? Rimfire/centerfire?

-LD

Rimfire.

Cause I’m a poor

 

[Old Man with Gun]

Rimfire.

Cause I’m a poor

Poor or not, until you can get good scores, stick with rimfire. Then add recoil, known distance and heavier guns into the mix.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Was anyone able to knock out an Appleseed for a Patriots' Day weekend?

-LD

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Was anyone able to knock out an Appleseed for a Patriots' Day weekend?

-LD

Got an email that’s this weekends shoot for us. Supposed to get a fancy smancy T-Shirt.

Just got my 10/22 bolt polished and ready to go.

 

[LuckyDuck]

Got an email that’s this weekends shoot for us. Supposed to get a fancy smancy T-Shirt.

Just got my 10/22 bolt polished and ready to go.

If it's anything like my Appleseed last April, not only will you get a snazzy t-shirt, you should also get a limited edition fancy smancy patch! I hope you have a great time and please let us know how it goes if you find the time.

-LD

 

[Old Man with Gun]

My previous post shows the patch.