Excuse me ...
I have said stuff like this over and over and I get called every name in the book
Even just now on FB, they are saying I only posted this for the Clicks
I have been telling you, and they have been calling me a liar for years now
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Why we can't have nice things,
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Excuse me ...
I have said stuff like this over and over and I get called every name in the book
Even just now on FB, they are saying I only posted this for the Clicks
I have been telling you, and they have been calling me a liar for years now
So either follow this guy or the other one that's hiding behind the non profit Jerry Falwell busines model..... I'll just continue being the journeyman spot filler I've been for the last few years and having a good time.
Let the flightless ostriches keep there heads in the sand, I believe you frank.
Imagine a private business owner in Tennessee trying to tell the entire world they can't have shooting matches.
Fuck Frank, you need to get off of social media.
Social media is a shithole of an echo chamber. Too much "group think", especially in the precision rifle community. Spending too much time on there is going to rot your brain.
I went to a match in Texas.
I will despense with the location since MD's get replaced at times
I was filling out my form and asked the md a question. Instead of answering the question he told me "he didn't care if I got dq'ed he just wanted my money for the prizes".
I picked up my money as he was reaching for it and left.
For 250$ an answer to a simple rules question would have been nice.
Good luck setting up proper regions with some people like that running things.
That event had out of state, sponsored teams and nationally recognized competitor's.
I knew I was donating but expected to be able to compete and enjoy it.
I will despense with the location since MD's get replaced at times
I was filling out my form and asked the md a question. Instead of answering the question he told me "he didn't care if I got dq'ed he just wanted my money for the prizes".
I picked up my money as he was reaching for it and left.
For 250$ an answer to a simple rules question would have been nice.
Good luck setting up proper regions with some people like that running things.
That event had out of state, sponsored teams and nationally recognized competitor's.
I knew I was donating but expected to be able to compete and enjoy it.
Why do we need an international series?
It’s hard enough trying to get supplies right now, registering for a match before it’s full, getting a barrel from the manufacturer or smith, etc.
Global popularity will wreck the supply line as we’ve seen in the last 5 years just from US popularity and do nothing more than put money into others pockets.
idk I’m not convinced we need an international series. (Not that my opinion matters.). This sport has grown enough already.
It’s hard enough trying to get supplies right now, registering for a match before it’s full, getting a barrel from the manufacturer or smith, etc.
Global popularity will wreck the supply line as we’ve seen in the last 5 years just from US popularity and do nothing more than put money into others pockets.
idk I’m not convinced we need an international series. (Not that my opinion matters.). This sport has grown enough already.
Members of Snipershide really can't claim this is a surprise. Frank has been vocal about these issues often over the years. I don't know if this is discussed on other rifle forums, but we have been quite well informed on this one.
It's not about the international series,
It's more about creating a system for precision rifle shooters that works for everyone, which can then be replicated to new areas.
The International angle just pulled the curtain back, it showed why the US Precision Rifle Community is a disorganized mess. That there are forces working behind the scenes to prevent people from opening up the doors to a more inclusive community
the International crowed just called the PRS on their bullshit, and now more people here are getting an education
It's more about creating a system for precision rifle shooters that works for everyone, which can then be replicated to new areas.
The International angle just pulled the curtain back, it showed why the US Precision Rifle Community is a disorganized mess. That there are forces working behind the scenes to prevent people from opening up the doors to a more inclusive community
the International crowed just called the PRS on their bullshit, and now more people here are getting an education
Yep. I've seen a few of the "big guys" do that shit. F'ing repugnant.
The reason an international series is helpful is because Olympic level sports adds tremendous credibility to the shooting sports. This makes it much harder to deny there are "sporting purposes" to our equipment and supplies. Very helpful when we're fighting against increased regulation of our pastimes.
Man, that list of questions and the circling back to "who owns this?" bullshit is pretty enlightening as to the motivation behind the PRS... What kind of bureaucratic, govt mindset, non productive idiot writes that shit? I've never been a fan of the PRS bunch top competitors as to the way they carry themselves but now I'm actively saying fuck em.... I would rather get behind the South Africa crew as they seem to have the proper motivation and mindset.
I know issues exist, and the only way I gather that data anymore is through SH and Franks podcast.
I'm not saying I didn't know issues existed, I did. But I kind of remove myself from the drama, and quite frankly part of the reason I've been shooting PRS less and less is because of the drama, group think and egotistical nature of some of it. That and the fact that shooting off the same contrived props again and again gets old.
While I knew there was issues, these letters really illuminate for those of us that aren't involved in the backdoor conversations of what's really going on, and how things are really ran. This is solid evidence on paper, rather then the "he said, she said" things we normally hear. Not that I didn't believe any of it before, but damn, that letter really illuminates the ugly side of it, and how deep it really goes.
It's like hearing people talk about how ugly a girl is, but then you see a picture and it looks like this:
That was sort of the idea behind Scout ...
They were a sports site and the idea was to put shooting alongside mainstream sports. So when Liberal Bob went to Scout to read about Colin Kappynicker he saw Sniper's Hide right next to it,
Many may not remember but we switched to Scout in October and at the first Shot after, I went to the PRS Match there, the Sin City and I did every shooter that wanted to, a Hero Video,
Hi I'm Frank shoot for SH, I have an AI, and Life is great,
I had Scout foot that bill, but shortly after, everyone hated Scout so they jumped ship to Facebook and I ended the project and walked away from the Comps.
There are dozens of examples of trying to help blend this into mainstream sports. Heck I can tell you about a long conversation Tom Fuller and I had about working on the NRA to add this in...
Things have been tried, because it was more broad and not focused towards certain individuals it was shot down.
They were a sports site and the idea was to put shooting alongside mainstream sports. So when Liberal Bob went to Scout to read about Colin Kappynicker he saw Sniper's Hide right next to it,
Many may not remember but we switched to Scout in October and at the first Shot after, I went to the PRS Match there, the Sin City and I did every shooter that wanted to, a Hero Video,
Hi I'm Frank shoot for SH, I have an AI, and Life is great,
I had Scout foot that bill, but shortly after, everyone hated Scout so they jumped ship to Facebook and I ended the project and walked away from the Comps.
There are dozens of examples of trying to help blend this into mainstream sports. Heck I can tell you about a long conversation Tom Fuller and I had about working on the NRA to add this in...
Things have been tried, because it was more broad and not focused towards certain individuals it was shot down.
Several years ago when there used to be matches held in Cookeville, TN I shot with Shannon on several occasions and I can say first hand the guy is a POS. He whined and cried when a stage didn't go his way and took the fun out of the match. We were all there for a good time and shooting, he obviously didn't get the memo.
For what it's worth I have experienced little to none of this from NRL as an MD, especially in the NRL22 world... lots of support and passing of sponsorship relationships down to the MD level. Team has been very supportive to MDs and willing to listen to feedback and make changes. I think that's why they broke out into their own to start with. I don't see NRL and PRS doing the same things, if NRL sent an email like this I would disassociate so quickly...
He is just hyper competitive ... and has no filter so everything he does uses the same mindset
I remember the first event he was at, ASC, we were all squadding together. It was like him and George trading first place (within the squad at least) with each other, I was in 3rd behind him, he turned to me, said, why you shooting so bad, funny, but it's constant. So you have to be on the same mindset plane as he is or it's definitely off putting.
bit of narcissistic tendencies too, but I get told the same thing, so who am I to talk.
The competitive mindset is what keeps the PRS from growing actually, he wants everything for himself, he demands loyalty but it's far too early to be about me. In the beginning is when you reinvest into other venues to create a true PR Series where the venues begin to mirror each other so. the events can improve.
the PRS is actually competing within it's own ranks, especially in the South East where everything is so close. Once you start competing against your program, people will take issue with your decisions. Every decision has two lenses, Shannon the owner operator, and Shannon the PRS. Which comes first, the Owner Operator or the PRS ?
I remember the first event he was at, ASC, we were all squadding together. It was like him and George trading first place (within the squad at least) with each other, I was in 3rd behind him, he turned to me, said, why you shooting so bad, funny, but it's constant. So you have to be on the same mindset plane as he is or it's definitely off putting.
bit of narcissistic tendencies too, but I get told the same thing, so who am I to talk.
The competitive mindset is what keeps the PRS from growing actually, he wants everything for himself, he demands loyalty but it's far too early to be about me. In the beginning is when you reinvest into other venues to create a true PR Series where the venues begin to mirror each other so. the events can improve.
the PRS is actually competing within it's own ranks, especially in the South East where everything is so close. Once you start competing against your program, people will take issue with your decisions. Every decision has two lenses, Shannon the owner operator, and Shannon the PRS. Which comes first, the Owner Operator or the PRS ?
NRL has not (in my personal experience) said anything about not hosting PRS or any other matches to MDs. They did mention PRS may not allow us to continue hosting NRL matches if we want to host PRS matches but they left that decision up to us.
My understanding is the NRL doesn't care, remember they are a non profit marketing company so they sort of understand volume and keeping the doors open to everyone.
That said, they were treated unfairly early on, the attacks were pretty personal. There always was a scorched earth policy with the PRS and under Shannon his demands for loyalty are well known.
I think if they didn't try to erase people like they have on the past, like mentioned in regards to Scott in the email, things would be easier to correct.
The competitive, take no prisoner approach is what pushed people, to include me, away.
That said, they were treated unfairly early on, the attacks were pretty personal. There always was a scorched earth policy with the PRS and under Shannon his demands for loyalty are well known.
I think if they didn't try to erase people like they have on the past, like mentioned in regards to Scott in the email, things would be easier to correct.
The competitive, take no prisoner approach is what pushed people, to include me, away.
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Hi,
Just for reference..
This is just one source/venue the International Organization brings to the table....
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Pretty much...this is really a solvable problem..
Real easy to solve to be honest!!
Sincerely,
Theis
Just for reference..
This is just one source/venue the International Organization brings to the table....
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
Pretty much...this is really a solvable problem..
Real easy to solve to be honest!!
Sincerely,
Theis
I noticed that pretty quick but with that said there are other guys on the scene like Dave Preston that is ultra competitive and you never hear a thing about him.
It's kind of incredible that a guy who's ran his own business for a while hasn't learned that a rising tide raises all boats.
Businesses go nowhere when they behave in the way the PRS is behaving. There's example after example of that. If your business practices are ran by ego, then it's not going to last long...
@THEIS, cool video but I personally am not crazy about the idea of encouraging improved marksmanship skills in Russia because of their communist tendencies and the way our own country is going. I’m honestly curious about your thoughts on this since you hail from close to that area and are now a dyed-in-the -wool American with a southern accent. 
Probably not the point of the thread but to me precision rifle is a fun hobby with the side benefit of improving skills for freedom loving people. Those skills may eventually be needed to defend freedom. Russia and China don’t really fit the description of “freedom loving”, quite the opposite.
Really that kind of sums up our issue with PRS too. We’re a generally friendly crowd until someone comes in and tries to control us or tell us we have to pay to play or that we owe them something. Hasn’t ever worked well but it’s a fight every generation seems to have and right now we’re losing it in America.
Probably not the point of the thread but to me precision rifle is a fun hobby with the side benefit of improving skills for freedom loving people. Those skills may eventually be needed to defend freedom. Russia and China don’t really fit the description of “freedom loving”, quite the opposite.
Really that kind of sums up our issue with PRS too. We’re a generally friendly crowd until someone comes in and tries to control us or tell us we have to pay to play or that we owe them something. Hasn’t ever worked well but it’s a fight every generation seems to have and right now we’re losing it in America.
Ya but if you look at it through his eyes, he is doing it right
K&M is very busy, it is the place to shoot PRS in the SE
the PRS is selling sponsorships, that is pretty much free money, I would bet there is zero ROI for those sponsor packages beyond a feeling it worked. I can't see them having a metric to work off with numbers as small as they have. What ROI metric can they use beyond a feel? The money is too high for market value.
He doesn't have reinvest in anything but K&M with it, he can keep 100% of profit, pour it back into K&M and it's all for the PRS too, it's the perfect cycle as a business. One feeds the other, which is fed by the first.
K&M is very busy, it is the place to shoot PRS in the SE
the PRS is selling sponsorships, that is pretty much free money, I would bet there is zero ROI for those sponsor packages beyond a feeling it worked. I can't see them having a metric to work off with numbers as small as they have. What ROI metric can they use beyond a feel? The money is too high for market value.
He doesn't have reinvest in anything but K&M with it, he can keep 100% of profit, pour it back into K&M and it's all for the PRS too, it's the perfect cycle as a business. One feeds the other, which is fed by the first.
Hi,
BUT all the sponsorships would cease immediately IF all MDs and venues cancelled all PRS sanctioned matches for 2021 and ran their own unaffiliated matches.
He could not hold enough PRS sanctioned events at K&M to keep them.
Sincerely,
Theis
I thought the idea behind Scout was a excellent one. I agreed with the concept that if the shooting shooting sports could be seen as mainstream as football or basketball, it would be much harder for anti gun people to use the "violence and criminal" thing in furthering their gun bans. Didn't work, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea. Same with this International Federation idea. It would be great to see Precision Rifle, Action Pistol, Multigun, all as Olympic sports.
Not for the first time. Last PRS match I shot was Franks in Ft. Morgan in like 2015? Drama city, NONE of it Franks fault.
They bitched because Vibbert helped set up a stage with his steel he somehow had an advantage and took the win away.
Some jack wagon from the AMU claimed during the alibi period that he got shorted like 30 points, like a whole section of the match worth.
Then nobody would let Frank talk at the awards and they descended on the prize table like vultures.
PRS = Precision Rifle Stupidity.
Bingo.
Because he's not a douchenozzle.
Frank, Thanks for finding this and posting it up. Shedding sun light where it's really needed.
I'll happily admit I have butted heads with Frank however he is 100% correct on all of this. Shannon is toxic and the sport will not be healthy or grow to its potential until he is gone.
I just like to shoot stuff man. I don’t care who runs the match.
I remember a competitor at the 2015 getting into it with an RO on one of the B stages, (I forget the numbers) He was a Jersey wearing shooter at the time and the person he was arguing with was Kasey from B&T, and the shooter has B&T on his shirt because he ran an Atlas. He had no clue who he was talking too, and back then, people were putting whatever they wanted on their shirts.
Kasey made sure to point that out to him as he was being a jerk
I have made plenty of mistakes, I try not to make the same mistake twice, but I make mistakes like anyone else.
I am also willing to admit changes in thought, new philosophies gained through experience, good or bad, etc,
Kasey made sure to point that out to him as he was being a jerk
I have made plenty of mistakes, I try not to make the same mistake twice, but I make mistakes like anyone else.
I am also willing to admit changes in thought, new philosophies gained through experience, good or bad, etc,
So Summit calls are coming in,
People like the idea of a Summit to hash out the high level topics and put the community on better footing,
You can't get too granular on this stuff, you want talk coordination, community goals and standard, then how to work together across series or regions
What would you think is a good way to put some of the bigger issues to bed ?
People like the idea of a Summit to hash out the high level topics and put the community on better footing,
You can't get too granular on this stuff, you want talk coordination, community goals and standard, then how to work together across series or regions
What would you think is a good way to put some of the bigger issues to bed ?
That match was epic and fun. But what you’re talking about was rampant that weekend. Guys changing scores and all that shit. I saw it in 2014 as well. 200 plus people there and rainy as hell. And we got through it. I’d like to see Sniper’s hide cup back in Colorado for sure. Even unaffiliated, it was a sweet ass deal.
What’s next? Will there be Rules on using a Kahles with SKMR # reticle in the NRL or the IVPFMFNG league?
Frank spinning up the cancel culture outrage in here as a shit stirring flex. Haha. No biased intentions there. Haha.
Frank spinning up the cancel culture outrage in here as a shit stirring flex. Haha. No biased intentions there. Haha.
Well, it is Frank's house that we all get to use for free unless we choose to pay. He's free to stir and cancel to his heart's content, we're all volunteers here.
I suppose the same applies to Angry PRS Guy on his platform, but I don't see the staff here saying if you log on to another forum you can't log in to Sniper's Hide anymore like they do with their matches.
I suppose the same applies to Angry PRS Guy on his platform, but I don't see the staff here saying if you log on to another forum you can't log in to Sniper's Hide anymore like they do with their matches.
Probably refer to the Ben Franklin quote of “We must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang separately.” because that really applies in this current climate.
Point out that we are all one team in a way. Everyone has their own thing, but it is like mutually supporting fire positions. You do your own thing but help each other out if needed. And don’t shoot the guys in the other fighting position who are on your team.
Most of all, shooting sports need to be FUN. If we want to grow the sport no one will want to come and hang out with overly douchey hyper competitive assholes. If that is a guy’s thing, cool, but don’t put it on display for the new shooter.
I thought when I deleted my Facebook account, I would lose my ability to stir the pots. I found a couple pots for one day.
All I did was relay a message,
I did not write the replies, I did not sit down together with either side to craft the messages, before or after...
I just got a hold of information that is of value to the entire shooting community and posted it, of course there is bias, there is bias in everything we do, read the letters.
I did not force anyone to say anything, I am just Calling Balls and Strikes as I see,
You know interesting, when I started Sniper's Hide in 2000, there was 2 sites, Sniper Company with a shitty threaded message board, Sniper Paradise with Thomas B running it. (Affiliated to Rifles Only at the Time out of Texas)
I wrote them, as they were both Army based doctrine and said I was starting SH, I would not create accounts on their site and poach members and if we have an issue here my contact information. I will stay in my lane as best as possible, thanks.
20 years later here I am ... my basic rule was always, just don't poach my members and I won't go on your platform. I have great relationships with Len B, Paul, etc... those two site were both my era. We talk, we communicated, we laid out ground rules early , which basically said to stay in our lanes. Nothing crazy, no threats, no butts, just manage your own members.
So this Bias, bullshit, no drama here, fuck you, I am not part of any of this, the shoot the messenger crowd needs to be slapped in the dick, hard, brand loyalty bullshit. This is the problem, the team sport aspect of everything in our lives, the politics, team sport, my side, your side, shooting, PRS, NRL, Whatever, SH Vs FB Groups,
You're fools if you want to throw this on me .. so eat my dick.
I did not write the replies, I did not sit down together with either side to craft the messages, before or after...
I just got a hold of information that is of value to the entire shooting community and posted it, of course there is bias, there is bias in everything we do, read the letters.
I did not force anyone to say anything, I am just Calling Balls and Strikes as I see,
You know interesting, when I started Sniper's Hide in 2000, there was 2 sites, Sniper Company with a shitty threaded message board, Sniper Paradise with Thomas B running it. (Affiliated to Rifles Only at the Time out of Texas)
I wrote them, as they were both Army based doctrine and said I was starting SH, I would not create accounts on their site and poach members and if we have an issue here my contact information. I will stay in my lane as best as possible, thanks.
20 years later here I am ... my basic rule was always, just don't poach my members and I won't go on your platform. I have great relationships with Len B, Paul, etc... those two site were both my era. We talk, we communicated, we laid out ground rules early , which basically said to stay in our lanes. Nothing crazy, no threats, no butts, just manage your own members.
So this Bias, bullshit, no drama here, fuck you, I am not part of any of this, the shoot the messenger crowd needs to be slapped in the dick, hard, brand loyalty bullshit. This is the problem, the team sport aspect of everything in our lives, the politics, team sport, my side, your side, shooting, PRS, NRL, Whatever, SH Vs FB Groups,
You're fools if you want to throw this on me .. so eat my dick.
To that point, that sort of reputation among your membership it is off putting to new shooters.
You know what is off putting to a new shooter, being the biggest, baddest, kick ass Shooting Series available and yet have zero consistency or processes in place to run a single Season, to include the Finale, correctly. When you have trouble crowning the division winners right the first time, maybe your priorities are misplaced.
I had a great phone call with Travis from the NRL this afternoon, you never hear me say much about them, and believe me, we had words early on. That all went away, how, they showed me. Not that I was really looking, but I saw stuff, and I told Travis straight up,
Nothing shut me up more than seeing the little things. When I scanned FB here and there, I saw tiny raffles, I saw kids awarded prizes after the fact, I see emails go out with NRL22 courses of fire, the little things they do.
That is all it took, show me SOMETHING
I had a great phone call with Travis from the NRL this afternoon, you never hear me say much about them, and believe me, we had words early on. That all went away, how, they showed me. Not that I was really looking, but I saw stuff, and I told Travis straight up,
Nothing shut me up more than seeing the little things. When I scanned FB here and there, I saw tiny raffles, I saw kids awarded prizes after the fact, I see emails go out with NRL22 courses of fire, the little things they do.
That is all it took, show me SOMETHING
I shot in the 2013 or 2014 Ft.Morgan SH Cup match (the year before the mud fest) and was woefully unprepared but still had a ton of fun and learned a lot.
After shooting a stage in a green field with white flowers looking for targets that were mottled grey and white me and a couple newb buddies were casually mentioning that the targets were really hard to find and needed to be repainted. We were doing the complaining to Frank and he told us if they were real snipers we would have been shot, lol
.
The delivery was kind of harsh but I’m sure both Frank and I have learned a thing or two since then and as the MD with a million things happening it wasn’t fair to expect him to be worried about fresh-painted afternoon targets.
The point of this story is to both reminisce and show that people can grow and change. If you’ve been around Frank or the hide you probably have had a run in with him but I respect what he’s done for the community and his willingness to help guide the industry and sport in a good direction with conversations like this.
Frank @lowlight, to answer your question, I don’t know 100% what “The Summit” should involve but it would be cool to see a club series not controlled by PRS that could keep scores through PractiScore like you mentioned while talking to Scott. Local club matches to make up a local series that could then be compared to other local series for a low cost of $10 a year or something. Basically a way for local shooters to compare themselves nationally, maybe even internationally without paying a $100 fee for matches that aren’t even in their area. We don’t need to get rid of the gaming, open guns, it’s human nature to progress and improve and extract advantages and it drives innovation. Having different flavors like CD, NRL Hunter series, team matches, rucking matches all are great because you can participate in the style depending on YOUR goals, physicality, etc.
I think more and more people are going to be passing on some of the big two day matches in favor of local matches due to budget and reloading component constraints in the coming few years. Especially with this kind of crap coming from the East coast league. Might be a perfect time to get something like that going.
I like seeing industry support and more attention on product development due to the rise in popularity and everyone likes a good prize table when they get something out of it. Jersey shooters like Jake Vibbert and others have risen to the top without being jerks and pass on a lot of knowledge to newer shooters.
People making their living in the industry is all fine and good, just don’t think you own it. I’m excited to see where NRL goes, in a few years I’m hoping to hit their 22 matches with my boys.
After shooting a stage in a green field with white flowers looking for targets that were mottled grey and white me and a couple newb buddies were casually mentioning that the targets were really hard to find and needed to be repainted. We were doing the complaining to Frank and he told us if they were real snipers we would have been shot, lol
.The delivery was kind of harsh but I’m sure both Frank and I have learned a thing or two since then and as the MD with a million things happening it wasn’t fair to expect him to be worried about fresh-painted afternoon targets.
The point of this story is to both reminisce and show that people can grow and change. If you’ve been around Frank or the hide you probably have had a run in with him but I respect what he’s done for the community and his willingness to help guide the industry and sport in a good direction with conversations like this.
Frank @lowlight, to answer your question, I don’t know 100% what “The Summit” should involve but it would be cool to see a club series not controlled by PRS that could keep scores through PractiScore like you mentioned while talking to Scott. Local club matches to make up a local series that could then be compared to other local series for a low cost of $10 a year or something. Basically a way for local shooters to compare themselves nationally, maybe even internationally without paying a $100 fee for matches that aren’t even in their area. We don’t need to get rid of the gaming, open guns, it’s human nature to progress and improve and extract advantages and it drives innovation. Having different flavors like CD, NRL Hunter series, team matches, rucking matches all are great because you can participate in the style depending on YOUR goals, physicality, etc.
I think more and more people are going to be passing on some of the big two day matches in favor of local matches due to budget and reloading component constraints in the coming few years. Especially with this kind of crap coming from the East coast league. Might be a perfect time to get something like that going.
I like seeing industry support and more attention on product development due to the rise in popularity and everyone likes a good prize table when they get something out of it. Jersey shooters like Jake Vibbert and others have risen to the top without being jerks and pass on a lot of knowledge to newer shooters.
People making their living in the industry is all fine and good, just don’t think you own it. I’m excited to see where NRL goes, in a few years I’m hoping to hit their 22 matches with my boys.
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