Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?

[Greg Langelius *]

My Mosin project rifles aren't going to attract the admiration of many purists, but that's OK; they're not supposed to. They are a hobbyist's effort to emulate the capabilities of the wartime Mosin Snipers. They are intended to affordable, rugged, simple, and to benefit from a small dose of modern technology. They are also intended to do no irreversible harm to a genuinely historic artifact.

Nowadays, gun owners and their property are under coordinated assault by extremists within their own government. Despite Constitutional guarantees to the contrary and double-faced assurances of the Foggy Bottom Vulture Corps, this goes on in both the darkness of night and the bright sunlight.

Some day, the Grabbists will have removed every other, more 'despicable', implement from the hands of their citizenry. In that moment, I hope my descendants will still have a few (of my) "Peasants' Protector" artifacts with which to resist further oppression.

Greg

 

[lash]

[MENTION=76235]MJ1[/MENTION]
I always appreciate your posts, especially since they usually contain beautiful specimens of military hardware. You have one amazing collection and I'd imagine that I don't even know the half of it.
Keep on keeping on.

 

[Weird one]

Well, they're just plain fun to shoot and it's a satisfying feeling of accomplishment to hit stuff a ways out there sometimes even further than the guys and gals with the more modern stuff.

 

[DRAGON64]

those things have a soul_ good or bad, they have it, embedded on them with the sweat and the fears of their previous owner(s)_ the trick is the research of "your" twin soul_ not an easy task, but if you'll find it, you understand why only some artillery could part you from her_

(I repectfully disagree with the comment about fake tits below)

I bought a German Mauser, albeit a mix-master, and I swear that when I unboxed it, pure evil entered my home... I have no doubt that that Mauser made dead people in its day; and that possibly the original owner was the devil himself... dramatics aside, that Mauser had a soul, and it was bad; I sold the rifle in short order, having never fired it.

 

[MJ1]

Time for new eye glasses. Have a fit with small/thin blade sights again.

 

[kraigWY]

Time for new eye glasses. Have a fit with small/thin blade sights again.

This guy makes wider front sights or the 1903/1903a3. [email protected]

I had the same problem as you and had him make me a .075 sight, which is the same width as my M1 and M1A. I also got a wider front sight for my M1917.

My Scores have gone up quite a bit with the wider sight.

 

[MJ1]

Front sight just disappears in the black at 100M and the targets I used are small and don't help much but I like the challenge.

 

[proneshooter]

Front sight just disappears in the black at 100M and the targets I used are small and don't help much but I like the challenge.

That's why the 6 o'clock hold was invented

 

[sandwarrior]

That's why the 6 o'clock hold was invented

Interesting point. I always thought it (the 6 o'clock hold) was to take advantage of a longer point blank range capability, like the M16... Things you learn here. I've shot these a bunch and never had that problem and never knew that was the solution to it. But, it makes sense.

 

[MJ1]

That is the six hold as we were taught with a 200 yard zero. That is a yes sandwarroir.

 

[sandwarrior]

That is the six hold as we were taught with a 200 yard zero. That is a yes sandwarroir.

Yes to both then probably?

Back when you went through basic it was either the M14 or M1 Garand they used. When I went through basic it was the M16A1. We were always taught "center mass" as opposed to 6 o'clock hold. But we never qualified with paper targets, we qualified with OD green pop-up targets. When asked (for the a-million and eightieth time) what about bullet drop, the Range instructors referred to the charts at qualification ranges showing "One hold hits all" i.e. HOLD CENTER MASS (it was painful if you continued to argue).

 

[Tango down]

That is the six hold as we were taught with a 200 yard zero. That is a yes sandwarroir.

MJ1

Had to say it; beautiful range!

 

[brianf]

having a few in my stable i always find myself getting irritated although i love it. when firing vintage sniper rifles (or vintage anything) i try to use period correct ammo or as close as i could get to it. of course the ammo and rifles themselves in current used/original condition are net nearly as accurate as their modern safe mates, so when i find my self not "shooting well" i never know if it is the rifle or me so i start double checking everything etc... like i said makes me crazy but i can't stop myself every few range days from bringing them out.
and by the way because they are all larger caliber and really light almost hunting weight rifles, man the kick.

 

[MJ1]

brainf said, 'of course the ammo and rifles themselves in current used/original condition are net nearly as accurate as their modern safe mates,'

Brianf I know a few guys shooting 41b's and #4's on modern service rifle National teams in Europe who win with as many as a dozen center cuts ay 900M and beyond. This sounds like on of my excuses. LOL

 

[brianf]

i would think they have been rebarrled and such, my 1919 springfield and 1918 #4 triggers are so long and gritty i dont think i could hold a 8 ring on a f-class target at 1000. if not i really do need more practice..LOL

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Just purchased a Schmidt-Rubin M96/11 to add to my stable. I have a K-31, which I have shot at 1035 yards, but I wanted to compare that to the longer version, so I got the M96/11.
I love the thought of shooting a rifle that is 2.5 times as old as I am.

 

[farmerbrown]

Just purchased a Schmidt-Rubin M96/11 to add to my stable. I have a K-31, which I have shot at 1035 yards, but I wanted to compare that to the longer version, so I got the M96/11.
I love the thought of shooting a rifle that is 2.5 times as old as I am.

I have a K31 (thing kicks worse than my .338LM) but my favorite is the M96 Swede.
What a beautiful piece of steel and craftsmanship - and 110 years old.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Mike Radford]

brainf said, 'of course the ammo and rifles themselves in current used/original condition are net nearly as accurate as their modern safe mates,'

Brianf I know a few guys shooting 41b's and #4's on modern service rifle National teams in Europe who win with as many as a dozen center cuts ay 900M and beyond. This sounds like on of my excuses. LOL

I agree totally with MJ. Folks can shoot as well, or nearly as well, with Vintage snipers as they can with the current offering.

I have said this on several forums, as will say it again, it is amazing how far we have not gone. Current snipers are in the 16 lb range and are doing about 0.8 MOA with 10X optics. So many classic snipers are doing that at 9lbs and with about 4X optics and good handloads or even military select ammo like US match or Soviet Extra Match. To me, it is amazing how little we have gained with current technology.

I recently held a 2012 US sniper in 300 Win Mag. It had places to put lights, and all kinds of BS. It was heavy!! It is rated at 0.8 with the best ammo the miltary can produce. The 338 LM that was rejected, was 0.6 MOA with considerable more range. Read the US testing. The 308 was also 0.8 MOA and range was silly bad in comparison. I say, considering the current cost of over $10K per example, and I do not recall the contact number, the difference in a PU doing near MOA at less than 9 lbs with select milsurp ammo, and what we have now is so small a progres it is mind boggling.

The Vintage snipers were capable and effective. Those who belittle them and blow them off are not well informed IMO.

 

[Win308]

I took my byf 41 Mauser to the range using some Yugo surplus M75 196gr fmj sniper ammo, kind of windy day @100yds: I'd like to get a better trigger besides the original Mauser trigger on this one, but I don't realy want to have to hog out the stock for a Timney like I did on my 1912 Steyr Chilean 7.62x51 Mauser..
I shoot this old Mauser because it's fun to get good groups from this old beast.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

That is a nice looking piece there, Win308.


Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed

 

[MJ1]

This post has lost it's way. New posts are grasping lily pads to stay afloat.

We are now sorting strawberries over the phone.

Chuc Mong Nam Moi

 

[delixe]

Gentlemen,

The rule that I find the most inconsistent with history is the requirement that a rifle have a scope. There are numerous documented examples of snipers using iron-sighted rifles and besides being accurate to what was actually used, it would allow new shooters to participate in this match who might not be able to procure a scope.

The NRA has made similar mistakes in their BPCR Silhouette program, namely that of not being consistent with recorded history and requiring scopes in a "Scope" class rather than saying "Any Sight".

In any kind of a "vintage" match, specifying a date and adhering to equipment available prior to that cut-off is the best way to avoid having a 90-page rule book. The other added benefit is that people actually research the period in history rather than simply reading a rule book.

If I'm wrong on the "scope-required" rule for Vintage Sniper I will gladly stand corrected.

Steve

Especially being as the sniper with the most wartime kills, Simo Häyhä, predominantly used iron sights, since glass tended to fog up in the abysmal conditions he operated in.

 

[delixe]

This post has lost it's way. New posts are grasping lily pads to stay afloat.

We are now sorting strawberries over the phone.

Chuc Mong Nam Moi

I've got a few ARs built on M16A1 uppers. I love the simplicity and the light weight of a rifle equipped only with iron sights. The rifles are nowhere near original, though, as the upper receiver and lower LPKs are the only original parts.

 

[Steve Garbe]

Delixe,

To add more fuel to "What was actually used?" argument, this passage from "Out Of Nowhere" by Pegler-

"There are also surviving records showing Government purchases of commercial telescopic sights in late 1914 and early 1915 and these total 2,914 items. Among them were German Zeiss, Goerz and Voightlanders, British Watts, Aldis, Rigby, Evans and Winchester scopes. These were fitted to SMLEs by all manner of mounts and bases, designed and produced by almost every gunmaker who had the facility for doing so. Some, such as the Rigby, Purdey, Holland & Holland and Evans, were well designed and extremely solidly constructed, others rather less so. The Army also made use of captured German scopes, and there is at least one example of a German claw mount fitted to an SMLE held in the MoD Pattern Room collection. If the list of scopes and mounts available at this time appears somewhat haphazard, so was their issue."

Makes for interesting thought.

Steve

 

[ChrisBCS]

I agree totally with MJ. Folks can shoot as well, or nearly as well, with Vintage snipers as they can with the current offering.

I have said this on several forums, as will say it again, it is amazing how far we have not gone. Current snipers are in the 16 lb range and are doing about 0.8 MOA with 10X optics. So many classic snipers are doing that at 9lbs and with about 4X optics and good handloads or even military select ammo like US match or Soviet Extra Match. To me, it is amazing how little we have gained with current technology.

I recently held a 2012 US sniper in 300 Win Mag. It had places to put lights, and all kinds of BS. It was heavy!! It is rated at 0.8 with the best ammo the miltary can produce. The 338 LM that was rejected, was 0.6 MOA with considerable more range. Read the US testing. The 308 was also 0.8 MOA and range was silly bad in comparison. I say, considering the current cost of over $10K per example, and I do not recall the contact number, the difference in a PU doing near MOA at less than 9 lbs with select milsurp ammo, and what we have now is so small a progres it is mind boggling.

The Vintage snipers were capable and effective. Those who belittle them and blow them off are not well informed IMO.

AWESOME post and info. Especially the emboldened.

 

[Mike Radford]

AWESOME post and info. Especially the emboldened.

WW2 rifles, or their replicas, are doing about MOA or better in the CMP Vintage sniper matches. I have fired, and have friends who frequently get MOA or less out of their vintage rifles including the common and lowly PU. If you use handloads or Soviet Extra Match ammo, which is rated 6-9 cm for 10 shot groups at 300meters, you can get very good results. Many other CMP Vintage snipers and replicas are getting MOA or better from their rifles. These rifle are usually under 10 lbs with optics from 2.2-4X. Germany had a few 6X but their field studies showed that 4X was probably adequate for up to about 800 meters. Many folks are making hits out to 1000 meter plus with these rifles.

When the US selected its new standard sniper, it went with a rifle over 15 lbs, 300 WM, and capable of 0.8 MOA with carefully loaded match ammo. The stats are available on the net. Wish I had a link. These rifles are heavy. They will accept all that stuff that folks use these days, lights, Night vision, etc.. I held a 2012 sniper and it was very heavy. As a former Army SF guy, every pound I carried mattered. We always ditched our steel pots. I even got rid of the C-ration boxes. Every ounce mattered. I hope to shoot one soon, but do have an invention to the 4 day military sniper match in March.

Good news is that the US has recently developed a 220 grain load for the 300 win mag and range is pretty impressive. Not as good as the 338 LM, nor as accurate in original testing for the 338, but not bad.

The point being that WW2 snipers with 4X or less optics were doing head shots out to 300 meters easily and 600 yds on a good day. Hitting a full body at 500-800 meters was not unusal and the rifles were under 10 lbs, sometimes less than 8.5lbs. Cost on a PU was very low and today available for about $600. I forget the price on the new US rifles but it is over $10K. Just how much progress is this?

 

[kraigWY]

On Okinawa, Private David W, Cass took out a machine gun crew at 1200 yards that was holding up the advance, I couldn't find he used the M1941 or M1903A4. I would assume it was a 'A4 since the Commandant of the Marine Corp, LG Alexander Vandegriflt canceled the M1941's Unertl orders to acquire the Army's M1903A4s.

These guns worked then, and if you take in one of the CMP's Vintage Sniper Match, you'll find they work today.

I went to the AMU's sniper school using the M21, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have been able to pass the shooting portion of the course with my M1903A4 and its 2.5X M-82 scope.

The only disadvantage would be the ability to add a Starlight Scope. Like others, being infantry when infantry walked, I like the lighter weight of the Springfield.

 

[sandwarrior]

On Okinawa, Private David W, Cass took out a machine gun crew at 1200 yards that was holding up the advance, I couldn't find he used the M1941 or M1903A4. I would assume it was a 'A4 since the Commandant of the Marine Corp, LG Alexander Vandegriflt canceled the M1941's Unertl orders to acquire the Army's M1903A4s.

These guns worked then, and if you take in one of the CMP's Vintage Sniper Match, you'll find they work today.

I went to the AMU's sniper school using the M21, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have been able to pass the shooting portion of the course with my M1903A4 and its 2.5X M-82 scope.

The only disadvantage would be the ability to add a Starlight Scope. Like others, being infantry when infantry walked, I like the lighter weight of the Springfield.

I have to agree with you there Kraig, if you can see the 1000 yd. target a 2.5x scope is only going to make it easier. Provided it's not molded over or scratched to the point you can't see through the glass. Any normally capable scope you can see through is really perfectly adequate. We've gotten used to some pretty nice glass as of late.

 

[hrfunk]

One of the things I like about the 2.5X scope on my 03A4 is the fact that it DOESN'T magnify any vibration or movement of the scope. I find that helps me concentrate on my sight picture without the distraction of the "jiggle effect".

HRF

 

[MJ1]

i would think they have been rebarrled and such, my 1919 springfield and 1918 #4 triggers are so long and gritty i dont think i could hold a 8 ring on a f-class target at 1000. if not i really do need more practice..LOL

None of the rifles I have mentioned been barreled after 1946. Triggers? Clean your gear.

 

[sandwarrior]

MJ1,

I have to agree with you there. Any time someone says a trigger is "gritty" it needs to be pulled apart and brought back to it's original condition as much as possible. Either through cleaning or honing (rust getting where it should not). If you don't know how to do the latter correctly, DO NOT TRY IT AT HOME! Take it to a professional who does know. An accidental discharge (AD) because of a botched trigger job is a bad thing to have. Any AD is a bad thing to have.

As for rebarreling, my K31 is a 1951 original barrel and my 1909 Argentino was made in 1910 with an original barrel still on it, shooting 2 moa @ 1k.

 

[MJ1]

Another jewel PF MkII

 

[lash]

[MENTION=76235]MJ1[/MENTION], I know that envy is not an admirable trait, so let me just say that your collection of vintage rifles is amazing and I enjoy seeing every one that you post. You know your stuff and have done well!

 

[lonegunman762x51]

When the batteries die and the power goes out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a good marksman with a 4x scope will win. A geek who can only shoot with wifi, a datat link and a GPS won't be of use to anyone.

Vintage sniper is fun to shoot and it involves skill to some degree. The trick is to make it easy enough to appeal to people who have rifles and lack the ability and equippment of a serious high power shooter. What's the fun in having a rifle if you can't shoot it?

 

[MJ1]

Before the rain hit and closed all the ranges. I must add I'm no expert on or about anything. I have HAD to make a few shots and HAD to maintain arms both in the mud and monsoon rain under direct and indirect fire. What I leaned was OJT. I don't think there is a certificate or a grade for that class.

 

[steppenwolf]

Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?

.... Because they're fun, they're cool, and they're likely to be more effective in a real-deal conflict involving ordinary folk, say, L.A. riots, Katrina aftermath, WWZ, or [insert here your own catastrophy of choice] than most would think.

 

[didithurt]

God what a great thread..! I loved everything in here..!
The first rifle I shot was a 1903, The first rifle I was given was also a 1903.
I also really dig the Mosin, I know a few of you will give me a real flogging for that statement, but it was a real blast to shoot, I actually enjoyed it more than sending bullets down range with my AR that day...
The guy that was eyeballing my 1903 came over to ask if he could shoot it, he was long in tooth, but a solid, well spoken man. In my head I actually compared him to John Wayne, Haha..!
He let me shoot his 45-70, then he pulled out his Mosin, all completely original, "never messed with it" he said. It always shoots just fine he said... so I gave it spin, hit the gong at 100 yards E V E R Y time..! yeah, good times...

 

[steppenwolf]

Don't know if this technically qualifies as a vintage "sniper," but this is my low-serial numbered (30268XX) Remington 1903 ...
Note the infamous red-stripe. Was told emphatically by a Remington '03 collector, "Do not scrape that paint off!"



Great shooter.
Took it to the Nat'l Rifle matches @ Camp Perry in 2009 for the Springfield Bolt Match and bronzed with it.



Might have done better if I'd gotten more trigger-time behind it, but only had it for a month or so before Perry and back then my opportunities to get it out to the local range were very few.

As was said before, all these rifles are old-school cool.

 

[didithurt]

Steppenwolf... I don't know what that red stripe is either... but it sure is a cool rifle..! It looks like a great day at the range...
Congrats on the bronze too..! It ain't as easy as it looks that's for sure. I have to agree with the earlier posts that state something along the lines of "being part of the rifle/an extension of you" It really is true, when you have those days, where everything "flows", God it's nice..!

 

[steppenwolf]

didithurt:

The red stripe signals that this Remington is a unique Lend-Lease 1903 from WW2, a so-called "red stripe Remington," one of many we sent the British in early 1942. The Brits painted all the Rem 1903s they got from us with a red stripe so that during a blitz or Nazi ground invasion it would alert a hurried British soldier that he was grabbing a U.S. rifle chambered in 30.06, not .303 Brit. That would, in theory, stop him from slamming a clip of .303 Brit cartridges into it.



Yep, it was a beautiful day at Perry when we shot the Springfield Match. Bright clear sky and hardly a cloud to be seen.

 

[didithurt]

Thanks..! It looks like it was awesome... I'll be headed east this year to check it out, a friend of mine was over that way last year during a huge show of some sort.
He came home with all sorts of stuff... An M1 Garand, a .30 carbine, ammo, a Bushmaster upper for his C.M.P. shooter...
His wife was pissed... Hahaha... now she shoots C.M.P. too..!
I learn something new every time I check this site out, there's so much info here..

 

[MJ1]

Lets just say it is to bad some people don't get it. let them snuggle down behind their $3K wounder guns and leave us mere mortals to our fun. LOL

 

[sandwarrior]

Lets just say it is to bad some people don't get it. let them snuggle down behind their $3K wounder guns and leave us mere mortals to our fun. LOL

Hey now...someday my $3000.00 Wundergun will be old too. And kids like us will want to shoot it. "Tell us what it was like before computers aimed our weapons?"....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

"Tell us what it was like before computers became our weapons?"....

Fixed it...

 

[hrfunk]

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto

HRF

 

[richidaho]

Love my Browning 1885 40-65 with cast bullets. Learning how to load black powder is half the fun and casting takes talent. Your learn over a few years time and gran-mam can even shoot the rifle.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVt02ijTcN8XqLoFXhFJF2YXq85KfrZZW0beA8wmCvcv8_S9x-

Rich L

 

[MJ1]

 

[sandwarrior]

Fixed it...

Thank you.