Winchester M70

[pitspitr]

Deleted

Been away for a while and am just getting back to this thread.

Pmclaine is correct about my ignorance of the finer points of the Win M70. I've never even shot one. In fact we could probably fill up a whole thread just addressing all the things I don't know or understand about the M70, especially vintage M70's.

When I posted the link to the GB auction my thoughts were along this line: We are discussing converting M70's into replica Viet Nam era sniper rifles. Here was one that exhibited several of the characteristics that those of you with knowledge of the originals were talking about, but that had already been screwed with. Someone looking to create a replica could buy it and make his replica without feeling guilty about cutting or drilling it because this wasn't a pristine original in factory condition. I apologize for being too eager.

pmclaine:
I still haven't had a chance to shoot my Cabela's acquisition. I've been busy with other shooting activities and haven't had a chance to get glass mounted on it. It looks like your load development is going well! I hope to someday have one that will shoot that well. You might enjoy this,

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/BrSxgk.jpg

It isn't a sniper rifle but it is former military

 

[pmclaine]

Fams just left for the beach.

I have an alone day.

Got the Revision B transportation loaded with the M70 and gonna do some 300 yard load testing with the magnetospeed attached.

 

[j-huskey]

Pics or it didn't happen!!!!!

 

[pmclaine]

Pics or it didn't happen!!!!!

Beautiful day in New England.....pleasant temps dry....

Started with ten rounds of FGMM, 168, factory to get a baseline some velocity data........

Plus 5 MOA was good and usually the Mspeed causes rounds to be .5" high at 100.

Waiting for another shooter to finish so I can go down and mark speeds on individual shots get you some pictures of final targets. Would really appreciate some knowledge of the results. I think my speeds are higher than I expected with my lowest loading being at about 2600 and me thinking the ideal would be 2550 to 2600.

 

[pmclaine]

Target 1.....

Target 2 ....

1. 52.5_________________5. 54.5______________9. 56.5
2. 53.0_________________6. 55.0_____________10. 56.8
3. 53.5_________________7. 55.5_____________11. 57.1
4. 54.0_________________8. 56.0

I fired each round of equal weight, marked the target, than fired two rounds of the next higher charge.

Kind of thinking I started a bit too high......Somewhere in the 51.5 to 53.0 range might be where I want to be for accuracy as well as not beating myself and the rifle up.

What say the175 SMK/IMR 4350 fans?

Note this is Winchester brass. My next loadings will be in HXP, Greek Military surplus M2, 1X brass.

 

[pmclaine]

Glad I decided to check out loads in what I think will be the 2550 to 2600 velocity range.....

Tomorrow Ill be in the 55 range.

 

[pre64win]

Glad I decided to check out loads in what I think will be the 2550 to 2600 velocity range.....

Tomorrow Ill be in the 55 range.

Love that crown! It's the only way we do them since building yours. And really glad to see that thing connecting holes!

 

[pmclaine]

From todays work Im thinking to load up 20 at 52.3.

Ill shoot two groups of five with a bare barrel and Ill shoot two groups of 5 with the MSpeed to get some velocity data/specs.

Tomorrow supposed to be little bit hotter 90s vs mid 80s.

Hoping everything Im doing now doesnt fall apart in January.

 

[Skunk]

Glad to see things coming together for you, @pmclaine

Seeing pictures like this kinda makes me just want to sell all my rifles that aren't wrapped in walnut.

 

[pmclaine]

Not as much joy today...

But Sig factory 175 delivers.....yesterday and todays cold bore/fouling groups of 5...

Im going to take this to a Sig Skill Builder class and mat down next to the most smug, new AI owner I can recognize than smear my dick all over him.....

From yesterday....

I think 52.2 is my solution to run with.

 

[deltawiskey]

Outstanding shooting!!
DW

 

[pmclaine]

Took 25 Rounds of 52.2 I4350 to the range today with the M70.....

Started out with clean/cold bore so I fired up 5 foulers. My foulers are the first two rounds off the shell plate and the last three - products of an unbalanced shell plate. Cold bore was low left the other 4 were meh!

Group 1 Looked good.

Group 2 confirmed I needed 1/4 MOA right windage.

Group 3 was with the Magnetospeed - the shift was almost exactly 2 MOA up. The one out happened to be my LO velocity for the 10 rounds measured and I called it low left.

Group 4 I subtracted 2 MOA.

11 SD is probably the best SD I have ever had for any of my reloading efforts.

So I think this thread has run its course.

My Model 70 build saga from buy, to build, to loading tests.

Ill post individual threads now such as "Good day with my Fashizzle M70"

Thank you @pre64win for sticking with it.

 

[pre64win]

Phil,

It has been a pleasure. It’s also been a saga… More than it should’ve been. We love what we see over the past few weeks, but feel bad this thread is two years long. It should have been faster to get to the point we are today.

Regardless, we are proud of how the rifle turned out. The folks here looking at pictures I have no idea about your insane attention to detail in your research and build spec. They also cannot see how beautifully distressed this rifle is. It truly looks like it’s stepped out of the 1940s and spent the next 80 years at ranges and worn by a marksman’s hands in the field. We are as proud of that as we are of you connecting holes on paper with it.

Thanks for letting us be a part of this journey, and thanks also for sticking with us even through the rough patches.

Justin

 

[pmclaine]

Everyone loves a Bromance....

Now if only....

 

[HogsLife]

Well here’s mine. Picked this up from a buddy that worked at Cabales. He knew I was looking for one so I could eventually build a Nam Sniper, and called me when one came in. 1951 Win M70 in 270. Plans are to send it up to Chad @ LRI, and have him work his magic on it. Have it fitted with the Douglas and chambered in a 30-06.

Id be lying though if I said I wasn’t in turmoil on whether to have the work done to it or leave it in original condition. Beautiful rifle. I’ve gone back n forth on that since I got it.

 

[Stevo86]

Well here’s mine. Picked this up from a buddy that worked at Cabales. He knew I was looking for one so I could eventually build a Nam Sniper, and called me when one came in. 1951 Win M70 in 270. Plans are to send it up to Justin @Pre64 and have him work his magic on it. Have it fitted with the Douglas and chambered in a 30-06.

Id be lying though if I said I wasn’t in turmoil on whether to have the work done to it or leave it in original condition. Beautiful rifle. I’ve gone back n forth on that since I got it.

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Do it! There are tons of 270s out there!

 

[j-huskey]

Id be lying though if I said I wasn’t in turmoil on whether to have the work done to it or leave it in original condition.

But, you can.... leave it original...

And build a sniper.....

buy another rifle in not quite as good a shape as this one...

Beautiful rifle. I’ve gone back n forth on that since I got it.

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[Charger442]

Well here’s mine. Picked this up from a buddy that worked at Cabales. He knew I was looking for one so I could eventually build a Nam Sniper, and called me when one came in. 1951 Win M70 in 270. Plans are to send it up to Justin @Pre64 and have him work his magic on it. Have it fitted with the Douglas and chambered in a 30-06.

Id be lying though if I said I wasn’t in turmoil on whether to have the work done to it or leave it in original condition. Beautiful rifle. I’ve gone back n forth on that since I got it.

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I mean, it's a 270, nothing of value is really lost, just don't go swiss cheese the action. Like this one, that they'll never get $6500 for.

Winchester 70 .250-3000 Savage (W10107)

www.collectorsfirearms.com

 

[HogsLife]

I mean, it's a 270, nothing of value is really lost, just don't go swiss cheese the action. Like this one, that they'll never get $6500 for.

Winchester 70 .250-3000 Savage (W10107)

www.collectorsfirearms.com

Oh I know. Probably only a $1500-ish rifle. not really about the monetary value. I’ve never been huge on nostalgia. and I’m not into 2 MOA rifles. Hate to tear apart a 70 y/o M70 in this good of condition.it’s beautiful rifle…..

but I will…. Lol

 

[pmclaine]

Oh I know. Probably only a $1500-ish rifle. not really about the monetary value. I’ve never been huge on nostalgia. and I’m not into 2 MOA rifles. Hate to tear apart a 70 y/o M70 in this good of condition.it’s beautiful rifle…..

but I will…. Lol

When the Zombies come you may not find .270 in just any old house but God's caliber will be just about everywhere.......

That is a beautiful rifle.

Change it to your liking for the mere fact of how horrible the buying a firearm process is at Cabelas.

Sure your changing the rifle is like blaming the victim when truth is you should be denutting the Cabelas sales guy.

 

[Skunk]

Ugh.. I'd find a beater. That rifle is cherry!

 

[HogsLife]

When the Zombies come you may not find .270 in just any old house but God's caliber will be just about everywhere.......

That is a beautiful rifle.

Change it to your liking for the mere fact of how horrible the buying a firearm process is at Cabelas.

Sure your changing the rifle is like blaming the victim when truth is you should be denutting the Cabelas sales guy.

Thanks man. Yea, it’s Hard to beat a 30-06.

My experience with Cabelas was an over the phone conversation where my buddy knocked $800 off their listed proce and sold it to me for $600. Lol

All in all, it wasn’t too bad.

 

[BJames]

Thanks man. Yea, it’s Hard to beat a 30-06.

My experience with Cabelas was an over the phone conversation where my buddy knocked $800 off their listed proce and sold it to me for $600. Lol

All in all, it wasn’t too bad.

Damn! They have 2?

 

[Duc]

Not Snipery

GunBroker.com - Error

 

[Skunk]

Bull Gun
Van Orden sniper
Rock Island stamped standard rifle

 

[pmclaine]

View attachment 7677938
Bull Gun
Van Orden sniper
Rock Island stamped standard rifle

If that doesnt raise your blood pressure......you are dead.

 

[RTH1800]

Something in that picture looks vaguely familiar.

 

[pmclaine]

Something in that picture looks vaguely familiar.

You too have "marble tile" flooring?

 

[RTH1800]

You too have "marble tile" flooring?

Not sure that is it.

 

[Charger442]

Something in that picture looks vaguely familiar.

Don't let him show you up. Pull out a 70 chambered in the first cartridge to break 3000 fps!!! Do it!

 

[pre64win]

I need the experts to help me. I’m driving home from purchasing a truckload of rifles out of a California collection. In the mix are the following:

Van Orden sniper #335339

Another apparent Van Orden sniper (or a very good copy - SN is not in Chandler but is the stock and rifle are correct and the SN is right smack in the middle of an Evaluators Ltd block - #268625)

But here are the pieces that really intrigue me: in the mix are…

A “USMC property” engraved Lyman STS scope (not sure if this can be documented by serial number).

A “USMC-SNIPER” stamped Unertl in the green phenolic military storage tube.

I can figure out the rifles (in fact 339335 was in our shop previously), but need help figuring out the scopes. I’m pretty sure neither is correct for the VO rifles I’m brining home (the Unertl is too early and the STS is too late), but I do know these are very hard to find and are correct for some generation of USMC snipers.

Any wisdom from the experts would be appreciated!

 

[RTH1800]

You seem to be confusing your 70’s. Very few Van Ordens were USMC. rifles.
Your USMC sniper scope would be correct for a Springfield sniper or a RVN era 70 sniper.
The Lyman was normally a range scope. Could be 40X RF, 1922 Springfield or any other range rifle of the era.

 

[Charger442]

I know I've seen that STS for sale somewhere

 

[USMCSGT0331]

I need the experts to help me. I’m driving home from purchasing a truckload of rifles out of a California collection. In the mix are the following:

Van Orden sniper #335339

Another apparent Van Orden sniper (or a very good copy - SN is not in Chandler but is the stock and rifle are correct and the SN is right smack in the middle of an Evaluators Ltd block - #268625)

But here are the pieces that really intrigue me: in the mix are…

A “USMC property” engraved Lyman STS scope (not sure if this can be documented by serial number).
View attachment 7708324

A “USMC-SNIPER” stamped Unertl in the green phenolic military storage tube.
View attachment 7708325
I can figure out the rifles (in fact 339335 was in our shop previously), but need help figuring out the scopes. I’m pretty sure neither is correct for the VO rifles I’m brining home (the Unertl is too early and the STS is too late), but I do know these are very hard to find and are correct for some generation of USMC snipers.

Any wisdom from the experts would be appreciated!

Nice score on the rifles and scopes! The STS is a rare find, don't see those often! The one in the photo you posted looks legit, but it's always good to verify by pulling records. There's a member here who has access to Lyman records, IIRC the USMC STS scopes were purchased in the 1950's. Hopefully he sees this thread, I'd like to know more about the SRS scopes I have.

The STS scopes were mainly used on target rifles, like @rth1800 mentioned above, I doubt any were used in combat. They're far more rare than the Unertls and the rollmarked ones are more rare than the hand engraved scopes. A few years ago a USMC PROPERTY rollmarked STS sold on ebay for $4,000.

Lyman also made a Junior Targetspot scope for the Marines, they were just rollmarked USMC. One just sold a few days ago on GB, it was mounted on an M1922 M2. The NRA also has a rollmarked STS on an M70 in their museum:

http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-g...t-storm/usmc-winchester-m70-sniper-rifle.aspx

Here's one of my USMC PROPERTY rollmarked STS scopes on a USMC 40X:

Here's my other STS scopes:

In regards to your VO rifles, I know someone who has all the VO records. IIRC, Evaluators Ltd. sold a few thousand rifles, but I'm not sure how many were ordered in their sniper configuration. Chandler's list doesn't have all of the serial numbers, so you might have an original VO sniper. I'll ask my friend if he can look yours up.

 

[mjmd11]

Not as much joy today...

But Sig factory 175 delivers.....yesterday and todays cold bore/fouling groups of 5...

Im going to take this to a Sig Skill Builder class and mat down next to the most smug, new AI owner I can recognize than smear my dick all over him.....

From yesterday....

I think 52.2 is my solution to run with.

Is the sig result 100m? or did i miss the verbage that stated the range, impressive. what was the average fps on the sig? was it consistent?

 

[mjmd11]

View attachment 7677938
Bull Gun
Van Orden sniper
Rock Island stamped standard rifle

What is the measurment on the bull gun barrel at the nose of the stock? I think I have an original stock for one.
I assume the number two van orden was restocked? Or was it delivered in that config ?
Beautiful collection. Number three is gold standard.

 

[RTH1800]

It’s 1.125” at front of receiver.

 

[pre64win]

You seem to be confusing your 70’s. Very few Van Ordens were USMC. rifles.
Your USMC sniper scope would be correct for a Springfield sniper or a RVN era 70 sniper.
The Lyman was normally a range scope. Could be 40X RF, 1922 Springfield or any other range rifle of the era.

Thanks for this. I had assumed the scopes were not correct for the the rifles and it appears that may only be partly correct.

I am not under any illusion the rifles were USMC guns. The one which is listed in Chandler's book and marked US PROPERTY was shipped to the US Army Rifle Team in June 1955, so we can be pretty sure it lived its life in Army hands and was never used as a sniper rifle. The other one - not marked US PROPERTY and not in the Evaluators Ltd records Chandler shows may not be a VO at all. Or, if @USMCSGT0331 can find the number in an expanded set of Evaluators Ltd records, it seems that gun is probably going to come back as a civilian rifle or as a replica.

Nice score on the rifles and scopes! The STS is a rare find, don't see those often! The one in the photo you posted looks legit, but it's always good to verify by pulling records. There's a member here who has access to Lyman records, IIRC the USMC STS scopes were purchased in the 1950's. Hopefully he sees this thread, I'd like to know more about the SRS scopes I have.

The STS scopes were mainly used on target rifles, like @rth1800 mentioned above, I doubt any were used in combat. They're far more rare than the Unertls and the rollmarked ones are more rare than the hand engraved scopes. A few years ago a USMC PROPERTY rollmarked STS sold on ebay for $4,000.

Here's my other STS scopes:

In regards to your VO rifles, I know someone who has all the VO records. IIRC, Evaluators Ltd. sold a few thousand rifles, but I'm not sure how many were ordered in their sniper configuration. Chandler's list doesn't have all of the serial numbers, so you might have an original VO sniper. I'll ask my friend if he can look yours up.

THANK YOU! I knew there were some experts here and this is more than I ever expected. What a collection, by the way!

Yes, unfortunately the Lyman is not rollmarked, so could easily be a fake. I'd love to know, so hopefully someone with the records comes along.

And thanks also for the information on the extra Evaluators Ltd records. I was not aware there were any more records in existence. It makes me feel better about bringing the rifle home. It has the correct VO stock, so I had assumed it was perhaps a genuine stock on a factory target action - cool as a tribute rifle, but not a VO. But if it turns out to be authentic, I will be tickled.

Thank you again for this and I will be watching to see if anyone turns up anything about that serial number.

 

[RTH1800]

Any Van Orden is a great gun in it’s own right. Great score.
BTW,
The scope and micarta can is a very desirable item. You will likely receive many offers on can alone. It will bring more as a set.
The guys with a scope and no can will be really persistent and annoying about yours. I have left the USMC sniper field due to the annoying people involved. Only a few items left. I find being uncompromisingly direct with them works best. (A simple go F … yourself seems to be effective on all but the worst cases)

 

[mjmd11]

It’s 1.125” at front of receiver.

a great collection of rifles.. thanks for posting them.

 

[RTH1800]

Not my post but I am very familiar with the bull gun.

 

[m1marty]

That's my old Van Orden and Lyman STS. What do you need to know about it?

 

[m1marty]

@pre64win
That Van Orden IS a documented rifle and I have the docs on the Lyman.

 

[pre64win]

@pre64win
That Van Orden IS a documented rifle and I have the docs on the Lyman.

That's fantastic about the scope. I really appreciate that information.

Man has 335339 made the rounds... from wherever you are to CA, to WA, to CA and back to WA in the past few years. And it definitely saw some abuse over the years - it's more than a bit rough, but those dings are all stories and it's still a gem in my book.

 

[m1marty]

That's fantastic about the scope. I really appreciate that information.

Man has 335339 made the rounds... from wherever you are to CA, to WA, to CA and back to WA in the past few years. And it definitely saw some abuse over the years - it's more than a bit rough, but those dings are all stories and it's still a gem in my book.

I'm one of the WA owners.

 

[Random Guy]

Fwiw, here's the M70 on display at the NRA museum in the Vietnam war section. USMC marked scope and wood transport case too. That's all I know.

 

[powdahound76]

Waiting for a shop to open and answer their dang phone.

Hopefully have pics to add to this later.

 

[powdahound76]

This came home with me.
7 hr round trip drive to get her.

 

[Average guy]

7 hr round trip drive to get her.

View attachment 7711125

Looks like my 270 featherweight

 

[powdahound76]

But a short action and .308

gonna need to replace the irons.

The rings and base are cool. But some part of me wants mellow blued mounts for the scope….
Its an old Buehler mount set up.

Scope is a Leupold M8 4x.