Winchester Model 70: Need proof that the is was official used by army/police before '66.

[Steffen Jobst]

Hello enthusiasts,
I would like to take part in a sport shooting competition in Germany in wich only rifles that were used by an army or police unit before 1966 are permitted.
I want to shoot a Winchester Model 70 and have seen the M70 was used for example by the "Royal Canadian Mounted Police" from 1960 to 1973.
I already had the idea that the M70 was used as a sniper rifle by the USMC.
Unfortunately, the rules of the competition speak of a “standard weapon”.
The exact wording is:
“Repeating rifles with open sights (rear sight and front sight) and a magazine capacity of at least 5 cartridges that were introduced as standard armament in an army unit or police unit by December 31, 1965 are permitted.”
And exactly about the M70 in the USMC/US Army you can find the following wording everywhere:
“These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon.”

However, apart from these infos, there is nothing else to be found about it.
Unfortunately I need something more detailed as proof.
Maybe here is someone who could help me with some research for more detailed information or documents.
Perhaps it's possible to send me written proof that the M70 was official service rifle before '66 in a police/army unit.
And also important to know: Which version of the Winchester M70 was used?

Thank you in advance for your help and best wishes from Germany,
yours sincerely,

Steffen Jobst

 

[sinister]

Steffen, the US Army used the Winchester Model 70 as a target competition rifle and never standardized it for general issue to troop units.

Link to 1959 manual: Army Manual for Competition and Training Weapons

 

[cplnorton]

I mean I have purchase orders by the Marines for Model 70's in sporter configuration, target configuration, etc.

I have counts of them on the Marine rifle teams used in competition.

1930's to 1940's. Would that work?

 

[hlee]

Reading between the lines, sounds like some version of “service rifle” match. As such, I think the spirit of the rule would favor rifles issued to “regular” infantry units…

 

[Steffen Jobst]

cplnorton & hlee​

Thanks for the Infos. As Sergant hlee wrote: They want regular standard rifles in the competition. So the proof that they rifle was used for training and match purpose is no help.
Would the sniper M70 used in Vietnam have been ordern regular as equipment it would be no problem, but in fact they were build from the existing match rifles and never regular ordered for what they were used.
But I am sure in other units (FBI, Police etc. they were regular ordered. I also know that the "Royal Canadian Mounted Police" used them regular.
So if I can bring a document or something else that says for example: "Arizona Police used 120 Winchester M70 Rifles from 1950 to 1960" or something similar, it would be a big help.

 

[pmclaine]

It was a regular order.

Precision rifles we're use do for precision purposes be that match or field.

 

[pmclaine]

Story I was told - likely myth....

The military was against using something outside of inventory for their precision rifle.

Once upon a time they cared about budgets even if it cost them millions in order to maintain he appearance of being budget conscious.

Hope was to turn existing 03s into Sniper rifles. The Winchester was bought as a neutral comparison model.

At the end of the testing the evaluators opinion was that rather than rework 03s just buy the Winchester.

 

[sinister]

It was a regular order.

Precision rifles we're use do for precision purposes be that match or field.

I think Chandler or Senich posted documents showing Van Orden sent Model 70 sniper versions to both the Army and Marines -- but they weren't standard-issue.

Base competition teams at division, interservice, and National Matches shot Model 70s in any rifle / any sight and Palma categories. Those were carried on unit rolls as match weapons, or at base Morale, Welfare, and Recreation shooting clubs and ranges.

Los Angeles Police Department had probably fewer than a dozen Model 70s serving as sniper rifles around 1974-75.

Steffen, I'd research that RCMP connection if you can. The Canadian Arctic Rangers were issued .303 Enfields which have been replaced by Tikkas. The Danish Sirius Patrol troops have M1917s.

 

[pmclaine]

FBI was flush with Model 70 builds weren’t they check the stickies FBI thread.

 

[fdkay]

Us model 1917 is probably the easy answer, if you can find one

 

[Random Guy]

And exactly about the M70 in the USMC/US Army you can find the following wording everywhere:
“These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon.”

Perhaps it's possible to send me written proof that the M70 was official service rifle before '66 in a police/army unit.

As noted in this thread, a few hundred M70s were ordered by the USMC in early WWII, but it was never issued as "standard military weapon." They were used as target rifles in the 1950s and a small number used as sniper rifles in Vietnam as early as late 1965, but I think the top sentence of the rules you pointed out suggests that they want to purposely exclude the M70 from this "service rifle" match - as they don't view the M70 as a "standard weapon." I wish you luck, but I think the rules committee is not going to allow it. It seems to be an argument over the semantics of what they consider a "standard weapon" which I suspect are rifles issued by the thousands in the pre-1966 era.

BTW, pre-1964 Winchester Model 70s were pretty expensive rifles in the 1950s-early 1960s, and I am not sure Police Depts would have been able to afford them, unless it was a large metro area with a big budget (ie, New York or Los Angles) or maybe the FBI. Even then, seems doubtful more than a small handful would have been purchased given their high costs. The level of machining required on a pre-64 M70 was expensive, as was the level of the metal polishing and the quality of the wood stocks that were nicely finished and fitted to the actions. Again, I would be surprised if the rules committee in Germany allows the M70, given what I think is their intent re their "service rifle" match - as the pre-64 M70 was too finely crafted and too finely finished to ever be a real "military service rifle." It's a classic hunting and target rifle though. Good luck regardless.

FBI was flush with Model 70 builds weren’t they check the stickies FBI thread.

As for the FBI, their elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) did build a few M70 sniper rifles around 1980 using pre-64 actions, but that is not going to help re this match in Germany - since it's about iron sights and pre-1966 "service rifles." Fyi: the FBI HRT team is tiny compared to the size of the FBI itself.

FBI Sniper Rifles Through The Years

Early FBI sniper rifles were surprisingly basic. Today’s FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) models are the tip of the spear in long-range shooting accuracy and features.

gundigest.com

 

[RTH1800]

Why not a K98? Are they not generally available in Germany?

 

[pmclaine]

As noted in this thread, a few hundred M70s were ordered by the USMC in early WWII, but it was never issued as "standard military weapon." They were used as target rifles in the 1950s and a small number used as sniper rifles in Vietnam as early as late 1965, but I think the top sentence of the rules you pointed out suggests that they want to purposely exclude the M70 from this "service rifle" match - as they don't view the M70 as a "standard weapon." I wish you luck, but I think the rules committee is not going to allow it. It seems to be an argument over the semantics of what they consider a "standard weapon" which I suspect are rifles issued by the thousands in the pre-1966 era.

BTW, pre-1964 Winchester Model 70s were pretty expensive rifles in the 1950s-early 1960s, and I am not sure Police Depts would have been able to afford them, unless it was a large metro area with a big budget (ie, New York or Los Angles) or maybe the FBI. Even then, seems doubtful more than a small handful would have been purchased given their high costs. The level of machining required on a pre-64 M70 was expensive, as was the level of the metal polishing and the quality of the wood stocks that were nicely finished and fitted to the actions. Again, I would be surprised if the rules committee in Germany allows the M70, given what I think is their intent re their "service rifle" match - as the pre-64 M70 was too finely crafted and too finely finished to ever be a real "military service rifle." It's a classic hunting and target rifle though. Good luck regardless.


As for the FBI, their elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) did build a few M70 sniper rifles around 1980 using pre-64 actions, but that is not going to help re this match in Germany - since it's about iron sights and pre-1966 "service rifles." Fyi: the FBI HRT team is tiny compared to the size of the FBI itself.

FBI Sniper Rifles Through The Years

Early FBI sniper rifles were surprisingly basic. Today’s FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) models are the tip of the spear in long-range shooting accuracy and features.

gundigest.com

Sounds like they don’t want it putting Mausers to shame……..

 

[sirhrmechanic]

FBI was flush with Model 70 builds weren’t they check the stickies FBI thread.

@Skunk has a ton of info on this.

And if you had not beat me to it I was going to say that the FBI and probably several other large law enforcement agencies fielded them. LAPD was a pioneer of SWAT tactics. Probably the NYPD as well. Texas Rangers likely had marksmen after the Whitman incident.

Before the Model 700 took over, the Model 70 was ubiquitous as a target and sniper rifle. They didn’t call it “tactical” then!

Cheers!

Sirhr

 

[Skunk]

@Skunk has a ton of info on this.

And if you had not beat me to it I was going to say that the FBI and probably several other large law enforcement agencies fielded them. LAPD was a pioneer of SWAT tactics. Probably the NYPD as well. Texas Rangers likely had marksmen after the Whitman incident.

Before the Model 700 took over, the Model 70 was ubiquitous as a target and sniper rifle. They didn’t call it “tactical” then!

Cheers!

Sirhr

Lots of Winchester M70’s in the FBI. There’s still one in the vault in FBI El Paso…

 

[Steffen Jobst]

Lots of Winchester M70’s in the FBI. There’s still one in the vault in FBI El Paso…

Hi Skunk,
do you have more detailed information or documents that the M70 was official FBI service rifle before '66?
And also important to know: Which version of the Winchester M70 was used?

 

[Mister Ridge]

Hi Skunk,
do you have more detailed information or documents that the M70 was official FBI service rifle before '66?
And also important to know: Which version of the Winchester M70 was used?

What kind of rifles do competitors typically run at these matches?

 

[Steffen Jobst]

They mostly run K98, Schweden Mauser,Schmidt Rubin, Lee Enfield ...
Many weapons from WWI and WWII. Actually, you can set the limit almost to 1930 and everyone could still shoot. There was no major discussion of other weapons until 1966 like the rules allows.

 

[Random Guy]

Outside a hyper specific Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to a specific FBI Field Office (there are 56 of them), I doubt even Skunk can provide any purchase or procurement “documentation” from 5 or 6 decades ago about some M70 rifles purchased by an FBI field office (or FBI HQ).

It might be easier to write a an email or better yet, a formal letter to Winchester, and see if they have any records of sales to the FBI HQ in DC, or field offices. As a private company they might not respond as it will take time to research their archives for old info, but that might be the only way to really get definitive “documentation” and esp info regarding specific configuration. This info is not on the Internet…as we would have seen it already.

 

[Skunk]

Hi Skunk,
do you have more detailed information or documents that the M70 was official FBI service rifle before '66?
And also important to know: Which version of the Winchester M70 was used?

I don’t have any documentation to support my claim. If the FBI used the M70 prior to the inception of the SWAT program in 1973, I don’t know what they would’ve been used for without a sniper program.

I’ve seen pre-war M70’s and short and long action push-feed (post-64) M70’s. I imagine most would’ve been purchased as standard rifles in .30-06 or .308 before being built into sniper rifles.

 

[Random Guy]

I’ve seen pre-war M70’s and short and long action push-feed (post-64) M70’s. I imagine most would’ve been purchased as standard rifles in .30-06 or .308 before being built into sniper rifles.

The last part of this sentence is key. The FBI did not field the M70 as a "standard weapon", anymore than the USMC fielded Remington M700s as a "standard service rifle" back in the 1960s. (The M40s were bought as dedicated sniper rifles with a 3-9x scope - not as iron sighted service rifle). Likewise, the FBI apparently bought a few M70s in both the pre-64 and post-64 configuration, in a very ad hoc fashion, for the purpose of building them into dedicated sniper rifles. I don't know the size of the HRT (or SWAT) team back in 1980, but I'm guessing it was a fairly small number of specially trained agents:

...and in the early 1980s the FBI then built a very few similar to the USMC M40A1 rifles, but with a different McMillan stock.

Again, these rifles were likely small, ad hoc purchases and never fielded w ir/on sights - but donor rifles that were purpose built into sniper rifles.

What did the FBI possibly use prior to 1966 for "precision rifles"? Apparently some obsolete, but probably free - hand-me downs from the US Army.

 

[Skunk]

HRT was born in 1983.

 

[Skeptic1]

Here's one. I don't know if it was an ordinary issued "standard weapon" and this one has been messed with some but.........

 

[sinister]

HRT was born in 1983.

... for the 1984 Los Angeles Summer Olympic Games.