Range Report Wind at 200 yards?

lordt313

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May 27, 2007
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Louisville. KY
I was shooting today at 200-250yds with my 700P, having no working knowledge of ballistics (yet) I noticed some of my shots (.308, 168gr FGGM) were WAY off target at this close range, there was a sustained wind of 18-27mph on the range, could this wind at this close of a range affect my shots in such a manner? or do you think its my inexperience showing through?

Thanks
Taylor
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. Wind is not going to throw a 308 off that much at 250 yds. </div></div>

Unless your target is a 2" dot.

 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. Wind is not going to throw a 308 off that much at 250 yds. </div></div>

Unless your target is a 2" dot.

</div></div>

It's still only about 4.5 moa at 25 mph.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike - we don't know how much "WAY off target" is. Until he quantifies that, I'd not rule it out. With my 175SMK load, a 22 mph full-value wind at 225 yards moves it almost 9 inches.


</div></div>

Lindy, I agree and made some assumptions where I could very well have been wrong. The way he said WAY off implied to me a greater distance than one should expect with those conditions. However in retrospect it may not be that far off the mark.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike - we don't know how much "WAY off target" is. Until he quantifies that, I'd not rule it out. With my 175SMK load, a 22 mph full-value wind at 225 yards moves it almost 9 inches.


</div></div>

Lindy, I agree and made some assumptions where I could very well have been wrong. The way he said WAY off implied to me a greater distance than one should expect with those conditions. However in retrospect it may not be that far off the mark. </div></div>

Mike and Lindy!. Agree with both of you that at 225 yards should not have that much of an effect by the wind, especially with the 175 SMK. I don't know what is "way off" either. Unless the target is extremely small, that the wind may push it off slightly. JMHO
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

The target in question was a 1ft by 1ft square that had a 3 inch red dot center, a few of the shots were not even on the cardboard backing behind it which was about 18in in width, based on the previouys comments I am going to assume that it is still my inexperience with a scoped rifle ( I am still working on my fundemental mechanics as far as a repeated hold on the rifle each time, stock weld, etc.) I know the scope is fine because at 100yds, as I started the day I shot about a 3 inch, 5 shot group to comfirm my zero from the previous day. I am still learning and I definately appreciate the comments from you all.

Thanks,
Taylor
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lordt313</div><div class="ubbcode-body">) I know the scope is fine because at 100yds, as I started the day I shot about a 3 inch, 5 shot group to comfirm my zero from the previous day.

Thanks,
Taylor </div></div>

Do I read you correctly that you shoot a 3" group at 100 yards to confirm your zero from previous day? If so, then I would have to say that you need more trigger time my friend. As Lindy and Mike pointed out before, at 225 yards, using a 175 SMK, or 168 grains AMAX, should not put you off a 12" x 12" target, even if the wind is about 25 mph. I would read the fundamentals of marksmanship and practice it over and over again. You can practice dry fire also. A good drill is to place a quarter on the barrel of your rifle. The goal is to pull the trigger without knocking the quarter off the barrel. Good luck
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

I was prone when shooting, but your right Desert, I fully admit and understand that I need to learn how to shoot this style, I have shot pistols for 9 years, never shot a scoped rifle til I bought mine last week, I practice daily dry firing and keeping my reticle on target while doing so, I was just curious if wind would affect a bullet at that distance.
Thanks,
Taylor
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lordt313</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a follow up, Desert, what kind kind of group would a proficient shooter realize at 100yds?

-Taylor</div></div>

With a capable rifle, a 5 shot group under .5 is the accepted standard. Anything less does not test the shooter.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As Lindy and Mike pointed out before, at 225 yards, using a 175 SMK, or 168 grains AMAX, should not put you off a 12" x 12" target, even if the wind is about 25 mph.</div></div>

Actually Lindy said that his standard load would be 9" of the POA @22mph, which would be 3" off the target.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

dude these are awesome shooters at this site. if youre startin out anything around an inch is "minute of bad guy" in my book and gets you out to practical hits at practical distances. keep workin on it and good luck.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

Lordt, do you have access to a .22LR rifle? It might be something to look into to get some trigger time as opposed to $30+ boxes of FGMM.

Another thing you should do would be to dry fire in between shots with the 700P. Single load live rounds and dry fire 3-4 times after every shot. Get smaller dots to shoot as as well, 1" or smaller.

Parallax isn't going to be an issue at 200 yds.

What kind of scope and mounts are you using? Who installed it? I've got a Ruger Model77 in 30.06 and unless the scope rings are torqued down enough it won't hold zero.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

I have a Nightforce 5.5-22, nightforce ultralight rings and badger 20moa base, all installed by Sterling Shooter (hide name) he is a duly qualified professional. I have gooten that bit on the .22 from many people and I am in the process of getting one to work on the fundamentals.

Thanks,
Taylor
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. Wind is not going to throw a 308 off that much at 250 yds. </div></div>

+1

It must have been you. Not the gun or ammo. But you must consider the size of the target and of small the groups were.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

It was zeroed at 100, this was when I moved it out, everything else was the same other than wind, when I zeroed the rifle there was no wind but the next day it was bad, but I have been told that at that close of a range wind would not affect the type of ammo I was shooting.

-Taylor
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

There could be a multitude of problems here: from position, wind, and trigger control to follow through. Not correctly countering the wind as described could amount to a 4 MOA error or even more. Learning to follow through and call your shots would provide some idea of what's going on. Or, some basic training could get you a handle on it.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There could be a multitude of problems here: from position, wind, and trigger control to follow through. Not correctly countering the wind as described could amount to a 9 MOA error or even more. Learning to follow through and call your shots would provide some idea of what's going on. Or, some basic training could get you a handle on it. </div></div>

I think that if you can get Sterling Shooter to give you a bit of help at the range one day, you'll be astounded at how much those groups shrink.

Don't know what kind of bribe it would take, but I'm pretty sure it'd be worth it.
cool.gif
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

Lordt;

The Adjustable Objective actually combines two semi-related adjustments, optical focus and parallax. This is a subtle but often critical difference. When the scope maker coordinates the two adjustments correctly, all is well. But this is often not done properly during scope assembly, and while focus is obvious, parallax is not.

Once you have your scope focussed as sharply as possible, wag your head up and down, side to side, while observing through the eyepiece. If the crosshairs and point of aim remain stationary with respect to each other, then parallax is correctly compensated. If, however, the crosshair appears to move with the eye across the point of aim, then the prallax is improperly compensated. It is very much possible for the relationship between parallax and focus to be out of sync with a riflescope, and this subtle difference is actually very common among lower priced optics. For as much as the crosshair moves across the POA between shots, the effects of parallax displace the POI by precisely the same amount. In order to obtain a proper parallax compensation with such scopes, it can become necessary to readjust the A/O to remove the relative motion, and consequently to also at least partially defocus the scope.

Many scopes have a fixed parallax compensation, and these scopes are arbitrarily set up to be properly compensated at one single distance. With hunting scopes this is often either 100 or 200yd.

When using a scope that is either poorly compensated or not adjustable at distances different from the arbitrary distance, one should take a moment to center the eye behind the eyepiece. This is accomplished by doing the 'head bob and wag maneuver' behind the eyepiece, and then carefully positioning the eye in the estimated center of the limits where the edge shadowing occurs. This is called 'quartering the reticle', is how one finds the proper cheek weld with a riflescope, and why it is so important.

My approach to parallax is to confirm it's presence or absence each time I shoot, and when necesssary, quarter the reticle for each shot. I personally suspect that unrecognized imcorrect parallax compensation is responsible for maybe even as much as the majority of all group dispersion, and that it is impossible to shoot to the shooter/rifle's full potential without taking it into conscious consideration for every shot. Proper linkage and synchronization of the parallax and focus combination adjustments is one of the lesser known key features that you pay the extra bucks for with more expensive optics, but one should never assume it's correct. Always do the 'maneuver'.

Greg
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lordt;

The Adjustable Objective actually combines two semi-related adjustments, optical focus and parallax. This is a subtle but often critical difference. When the scope maker coordinates the two adjustments correctly, all is well. But this is often not done properly during scope assembly, and while focus is obvious, parallax is not.

Once you have your scope focussed as sharply as possible, wag your head up and down, side to side, while observing through the eyepiece. If the crosshairs and point of aim remain stationary with respect to each other, then parallax is correctly compensated. If, however, the crosshair appears to move with the eye across the point of aim, then the prallax is improperly compensated. It is very much possible for the relationship between parallax and focus to be out of sync with a riflescope, and this subtle difference is actually very common among lower priced optics. For as much as the crosshair moves across the POA between shots, the effects of parallax displace the POI by precisely the same amount. In order to obtain a proper parallax compensation with such scopes, it can become necessary to readjust the A/O to remove the relative motion, and consequently to also at least partially defocus the scope.

Many scopes have a fixed parallax compensation, and these scopes are arbitrarily set up to be properly compensated at one single distance. With hunting scopes this is often either 100 or 200yd.

When using a scope that is either poorly compensated or not adjustable at distances different from the arbitrary distance, one should take a moment to center the eye behind the eyepiece. This is accomplished by doing the 'head bob and wag maneuver' behind the eyepiece, and then carefully positioning the eye in the estimated center of the limits where the edge shadowing occurs. This is called 'quartering the reticle', is how one finds the proper cheek weld with a riflescope, and why it is so important.

My approach to parallax is to confirm it's presence or absence each time I shoot, and when necesssary, quarter the reticle for each shot. I personally suspect that unrecognized imcorrect parallax compensation is responsible for maybe even as much as the majority of all group dispersion, and that it is impossible to shoot to the shooter/rifle's full potential without taking it into conscious consideration for every shot. Proper linkage and synchronization of the parallax and focus combination adjustments is one of the lesser known key features that you pay the extra bucks for with more expensive optics, but one should never assume it's correct. Always do the 'maneuver'.

Greg</div></div>

Greg,

I think you said it very well. Interestingly, even for folks who do understand it, recognizing a consistent perspective of aim, to minimize the effects of parallax error, may not be as easy or as possible as it is to minimize sight alignment error using iron sights. In other words, eyeball movement off a good chipmunk stock weld will reveal perfection of sight alignment using irons, while using a scope, only gross recognition of divergent perspectives are possible. This may be why I'm not any more likely to shoot better scores using a scope than when using irons, that is of course assuming I can establish a consistent relationship between the front sight and target.
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

Basically, find myself posting this relationship here about once every two years. While I believe it is easier to shoot better with optical sights, I also believe it is less likely to happen, since the system has a lot of issues that are not as readily apparent as those associated with irons.

There's a reason why BR shooters use optics with lots of magnification. They are the best source of info about accuracy shooting techniques. BTW, when I have a question about optics, I ask LL.

Greg
 
Re: Wind at 200 yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Basically, find myself posting this relationship here about once every two years. While I believe it is easier to shoot better with optical sights, I also believe it is less likely to happen, since the system has a lot of issues that are not as readily apparent as those associated with irons.


Greg</div></div>

Well, I'm glad you touched on "perspective of aim", as it's a concept important to good shooting, that's to say, it's one of those things that must be consistent. Thing is, I get the impression that not many others here have thought much about it, perhaps because it has not been brought to their attention.

BTW, recently, while training folks to get good hits at 600 meters using the TA31 RCO-M4 ACOG, it was discovered that parallax error was going to preclude any success. However, thanks to an on the fly lesson in "perspective of aim" most students were able to acquire a consistent stockweld and eyeball position to hold and favor for good hits after an initial sighter.