WOA AR 6.5 Creedmoor Bullet Selection Question

[Scottie15]

I have a 1:8 twist 6.5 creedmoor barrel from White Oak Armament on an LR308 pattern rifle. I have had a hard time getting it to group consistently since a particular lot of the factory 140's. Anyone have experience with this barrel? I was thinking about trying some other 139-142gr bullets, but wanted to get some feedback before burning through some H4350.

Thanks.

 

[Kiba]

Both of my semi auto 6.5 Creedmoors (GAP10 and JP LRP-07) have a strong preference for the 123 Scenar and 130 VLD over any of the 139-142 grain bullets. After experiencing lots of pierced primers running 140s in the GAP and seeing some slight cratering with 140s in the JP I made some phone calls; both GAP and JP recommended leaving the 140gr bullets for the bolt rifles and suggested trying the 130s and 123s.

While the 139-142s were accurate in each rifle it was hard to achieve reasonable velocity with them as even very moderate loads showed pressure signs and had primer issues. Both rifles are more accurate, more reliable, and show no pressure signs with the 123 Scenars and 130 VLDs. Additionally, the 123 and 130 loads are actually flatter to 1K compared to a 140 load that showed moderate primer cratering & ejector swipes.

 

[Scottie15]

both GAP and JP recommended leaving the 140gr bullets for the bolt rifles and suggested trying the 130s and 123s.

Thanks Kiba. I have pierced primers on certain 140 loads, and on hot days. Did GAP and JP give you any reason that the semi 6.5s prefer the lighter bullets?

I just bought some 123 Scenars and AMaxs to try. Have you loaded them with anything besides H4350?

 

[LRRPF52]

Both of my semi auto 6.5 Creedmoors (GAP10 and JP LRP-07) have a strong preference for the 123 Scenar and 130 VLD over any of the 139-142 grain bullets. After experiencing lots of pierced primers running 140s in the GAP and seeing some slight cratering with 140s in the JP I made some phone calls; both GAP and JP recommended leaving the 140gr bullets for the bolt rifles and suggested trying the 130s and 123s.

While the 139-142s were accurate in each rifle it was hard to achieve reasonable velocity with them as even very moderate loads showed pressure signs and had primer issues. Both rifles are more accurate, more reliable, and show no pressure signs with the 123 Scenars and 130 VLDs. Additionally, the 123 and 130 loads are actually flatter to 1K compared to a 140 load that showed moderate primer cratering & ejector swipes.

This is my experience as well, being a .260 Rem guy since 2007. I have yet to see a factory .260 Rem load that is worth shooting in the gas guns. A buddy of mine recently bought a .260 Rem factory Armalite AR-10, and all his primers looked horrible. He bought every .260 Rem factory load he could find, and they all seemed to run outside of optimum for a gas gun, while not grouping where you would expect.

I have never shot a factory load in both .260 Rem AR10's that I have owned. The 123gr Scenar and 130gr VLD run fast for me from my 22" GAP gas gun that George and Jeff built for me (before the GAP-10 existed). My 130gr VLD load is too easy to shoot with out to 100yds on man-sized sils, and beats the 140gr for drop with same drift.

H4350 has given me a lot of speed, with good gas system operation. I don't know what port diameter GAP used on mine, but it works well. I have also had good results with 140gr pills for accuracy, but I think 2700fps is where the limit is for me.

H4831 under the 139gr Scenar was super-accurate from the start load (.6" for 5rds then shrank down to .4" 5rds). RL17 also works well behind the 142gr SMK, but I like the 130gr VLD the most. I enjoy shooting the .260 Rem rapidly on small targets at distance for demos or in competition, especially explosive targets like we do at BoomerShoot.

If I had a Creedmoor, I would try some 123gr A-MAX's, 123gr Scenars, 129gr SST's, 130gr Norma's, and 130gr VLD's. The VLD's are expensive as crap, but they shoot so dang well at distance. You also might want to try the new Lapua Scenar-L's in 120gr and 136gr.

 

[Kiba]

Thanks Kiba. I have pierced primers on certain 140 loads, and on hot days. Did GAP and JP give you any reason that the semi 6.5s prefer the lighter bullets?

I just bought some 123 Scenars and AMaxs to try. Have you loaded them with anything besides H4350?

The short answer is that the pressure curve of the typical 6.5CM powder (H4350) combined with the heavier 140gr class bullets just doesn't play nicely in the gas guns when it comes to action timing and it manifests itself in poor primer condition & ejector swipes.

For example with my JP with a 22" barrel, I could push the 140 Amax to about 2700 but at that speed there was a slight crater on the primer, an ejector swipe on the brass, and I'd have about a 10% failure rate when it came to extraction & ejection. It was accurate though. With the 123 Scenar I can push them to 2920 with perfect looking primers & brass and I can push the 130 VLD to 2810 with perfect looking primers & brass-- and I haven't had a single extraction failure with either the Scenar or VLD loads. While the 140 Amax has the edge in the BC department the substantially faster 123 & 130 loads easily beat the Amax in drop and all 3 loads are nearly identical in wind out to about 1150Y.

As LRRPF52 said, the VLDs are a little spendy but group fantastic at long range. However, I'm having excellent luck with the 123 Scenars-- they've been holding about .5-.6 MOA at 750Y (farthest I've shot them for groups) which is right in line with what the Berger 130 VLDs are shooting at that distance. The Scenars are quite a bit cheaper than the Bergers too and are also available right now whereas the Berger's are on backorder everywhere.

I'm really looking forward to trying the upcoming Berger 130 Hybrid-- I'm hoping they'll be as accurate and around the same velocity as the 130 VLDs but with an even higher BC. Until then I have 500 of the VLDs and 1000 of the 123 Scenars to shoot.

 

[Scottie15]

H4350 has given me a lot of speed, with good gas system operation. I don't know what port diameter GAP used on mine, but it works well. I have also had good results with 140gr pills for accuracy, but I think 2700fps is where the limit is for me.

If I had a Creedmoor, I would try some 123gr A-MAX's, 123gr Scenars, 129gr SST's, 130gr Norma's, and 130gr VLD's. The VLD's are expensive as crap, but they shoot so dang well at distance. You also might want to try the new Lapua Scenar-L's in 120gr and 136gr.

I got 2680 out of my 20" barrel with the 140s. The H4350 did run my gun reliably.

I do like the ballistics of the 123s, I am starting to chase a load for the AMax, and might just try the new 120 Lapuas if I order anything soon. The 129 SSTs shot well enough for hunting, and that's what I'll be using this year if I'm ever hunting close to the truck. What loads have been accurate for you with the 123 grainers?

 

[LRRPF52]

For example with my JP with a 22" barrel, I could push the 140 Amax to about 2700 but at that speed there was a slight crater on the primer, an ejector swipe on the brass, and I'd have about a 10% failure rate when it came to extraction & ejection. It was accurate though. With the 123 Scenar I can push them to 2920 with perfect looking primers & brass and I can push the 130 VLD to 2810 with perfect looking primers & brass--

That's funny, because those are the exact speeds that I get for max loads with the same bullets. 2920fps with the 123gr Scenar, and 2810fps with the 130gr VLD's. Both are lasers. You break the 2nd stage of the Geissele, and you're connected on-target at 400yds almost instantly. I also have a 22" barrel, but a Bartlein.

The first time I shot the 130gr VLD at 1000yds, I shot a 9.25" group with an intentional non-compensated wind speed change, just to see what would happen, off the back of my truck bed on a bipod, bullseye boiling in the mirage. It's like cheating when shooting at distance, with way more consistency in the wind than .308, even with the 175gr SMK's. They're just too slow compared to the .260, and the 123gr 6.5's have better BC's than the 175gr SMK, let alone the 130's.

 

[LRRPF52]

I got 2680 out of my 20" barrel with the 140s. The H4350 did run my gun reliably.

I do like the ballistics of the 123s, I am starting to chase a load for the AMax, and might just try the new 120 Lapuas if I order anything soon. The 129 SSTs shot well enough for hunting, and that's what I'll be using this year if I'm ever hunting close to the truck. What loads have been accurate for you with the 123 grainers?

H4350, which is also a great powder for the Creedmoor. H4350 is a little faster on the medium-slow rifle powders, which is a good thing for us with gas guns, because we don't want slow-burning powders like Superformance hitting the port with higher pressure. In a bolt gun, the slower powders are the way to go because they don't spike on ignition, and run the curve out further, squeezing every foot of speed they can out of the barrel.

I was ladder-testing one load with 140gr and a slow powder, and I hit a certain charge weight that just violently slammed the action noticeably hard like I never felt before, and it would certainly damage the rifle if I would have continued using that combination. I think H4350 is the way to go.

 

[Scottie15]

I was ladder-testing one load with 140gr and a slow powder, and I hit a certain charge weight that just violently slammed the action noticeably hard like I never felt before, and it would certainly damage the rifle if I would have continued using that combination. I think H4350 is the way to go.

It's the slowest powder I have tried for that very reason. I don't have enough H4350 left for much experimenting, and was wondering if anything else would be worth trying with the lighter bullets. I have IMR4064 and Varget to play with, but haven't been able/tried very hard to get any H4350 lately.

 

[SeaBassHWD]

I'm getting about 1.5MOA using factory 140 Amax (2,700 FPS) and 0.68MOA using hand loaded 140 SMK w/IMR4350 (2,500 FPS). I'm shooting it out of my 22" JP. Both rounds showed slight primer cratering as well as brass "streaks" running down the necks. I just ordered some 130 VLDs and will work up a load using IMR4350 and maybe Varget.

I see you're in Sac. Are you a member of Sac Valley range? Do you ever shoot the 1,000 yd range?

 

[Kiba]

That's funny, because those are the exact speeds that I get for max loads with the same bullets. 2920fps with the 123gr Scenar, and 2810fps with the 130gr VLD's. Both are lasers. You break the 2nd stage of the Geissele, and you're connected on-target at 400yds almost instantly. I also have a 22" barrel, but a Bartlein.

Those were the highest velocity/accuracy nodes out of my 22" JP. I tested the VLD's up to about 2870 where they were still pretty accurate but showing some pressure signs. I tested the 123 Scenars up to about 3000 where they were still pretty accurate but the primers showed a pretty good crater. 2810ish was the sweet spot for the VLDs and 2920 was the sweet spot for the Scenars. When I was initially testing the 140 Amax about 2735 was the maximum from the 22" barrel, I tried a couple of loads with more powder but none of them went any faster than 2735. The highest velocity accuracy node with the 140Amax was right about 2690fps but it showed some pressure signs and had occasional extraction/ejection problems.

The 130 VLDs shoot so well out of the gas gun I need to try them in my 6.5CM AIAE Mk3; in a bolt gun with a 26" barrel I have no doubt they'll make 2900+ without pressure signs and that should be awesome at distance.

 

[sch2046]

Whata loads are you guys using on the 123 scenars? Reference only, also,where didnyounstart your loads?

 

[biner626]

I have a 1:8 twist 6.5 creedmoor barrel from White Oak Armament on an LR308 pattern rifle.

My only question is... Where the heck did you get the barrel? Did you special order from WOA?

 

[MLC]

Has anyone tried the SS/Tubb carrier weight system in their 260?

 

[Kiba]

What loads are you guys using on the 123 scenars? Reference only, also,where did you start your loads?

With the 123 Scenar I'm using 43.8gr H4350 and with the 130 VLD I'm using 42.7gr H4350. Both using GM210M primers and loaded to mag length. I started at 42.5gr with the 123 Scenar and 41.5gr with the 130 VLD.

Has anyone tried the SS/Tubb carrier weight system in their 260?

Tried one in my GAP10 to see if it would stop the primer piercing... it didn't, even with the heavy tungsten insert. The primer piercing was a combination of the 140gr bullets, pressure curve of H4350, and the .080 firing pin diameter of the DPMS style bolt. GAP swapped my rifle to an Armalite bolt & barrel extension as Armalite uses a .068" firing pin and that fixed the primer piercing problem but the 140's were still hard on the brass when trying to push them at 2700+. I took GAP and JP's suggestion and tried the lighter bullets and quickly realized I was able to get much better performance out of the 123s and 130s without pressure signs.

 

[MLC]

Thanks.
This thread is very informative and hopefully will save a lot of folks some grief.

 

[Casey Simpson]

The firing pin tips and firing pin holes in the bolt face are too large at @.078. Bush them to @.068. Carefully radius the pin tip as to avoid weakening it too much. Broken tips are the result. Bushing the pin and hole will help the problem if its done right.

 

[Scottie15]

I see you're in Sac. Are you a member of Sac Valley range? Do you ever shoot the 1,000 yd range?

I don't usually get out to Sac Valley, but I have shot the 1000 yard range. Looking forward to life calming down a bit next year so I can get out some more. Let me know if you find a decent Varget load. I have more Varget than H4350 and haven't been shooting 308 much.

My only question is... Where the heck did you get the barrel? Did you special order from WOA?

Called WOA and talked to John a couple years ago asking about a 6.5 barrel and he had just made a few. Sounded like a pretty small batch. Barrel date is 01-11 IIRC.

 

[Scottie15]

With the 123 Scenar I'm using 43.8gr H4350 and with the 130 VLD I'm using 42.7gr H4350. Both using GM210M primers and loaded to mag length. I started at 42.5gr with the 123 Scenar and 41.5gr with the 130 VLD.

Thanks for the info Kiba.

 

[lilharcher]

Great thread......going to use this info to work up some 130 gr. pills this weekend. I have been mainly shooting the 140 gr. Amax's from my JP gas gun, and my brass has been paying the price too. Going to continue experimenting with Hodgdon v100 until my H4350 arrives in the next few weeks.

 

[LRRPF52]

I spent Saturday working with load development in my Grendel and .260 Rem.

In the .260 Rem AR, I tried

* IMR4831 and the 130gr Norma Golden Target (awesome bullet BTW)

* RL17 and 140gr Barnes Match Burners

I might need to look into a bushed firing pin as well. I also need to polish my bolt face, and take off the edge of the ejector channel.

 

[Kiba]

I might need to look into a bushed firing pin as well. I also need to polish my bolt face, and take off the edge of the ejector channel.

From my experience with the GAP10 going to a smaller .068" firing pin allows you to easily run loads hot enough to beat the crap out of the brass & action without ever cratering or piercing primers-- even with the heavier 140gr bullets. With the 123s and 130s the larger .080 firing pin doesn't seem to be much of an issue as you run into mild primer cratering about the same time the brass is showing pressure signs such as nasty ejector swipes.

While the 123s and 130s play nicely with the .080" firing pin I'd prefer my JP have the smaller .068" firing pin-- more of a safety margin thing than anything else as it greatly reduces the risk of cratered/pierced primers. Having my GAP10 stick a firing pin on a piece of pierced primer back when it had the .080" firing pin and run away full auto with a partial mag of 140s was exciting... but not something I'd care to repeat.