Would appreciate a recommendation for a Good Beginner Long Range Rifle shooting Book for mil/mil

[want2learn]

As you may have seen in my other post, i've registered for a beginner class coming up in a few months.

I thought perhaps it would be best if i reviewed and learned some of the important/critical aspects in advance of the class.

I have a Sig Tango 6 mil/mil scope on a .308 Winchester rifle.

The book i purchased is all MOA (though the author does afford us yet another conversion to MIL)...and while i can figure out how to do the conversion it seems like an extra step. Figured there must be a good book out there that deals mostly with MIL/MIL. Plus it would be nice to read another text on the subject.

Would sure appreciate any recommendations, thanks

 

[ShtrRdy]

Have you looked at "Long Range Shooting Handbook" by Ryan Cleckner?

 

[Danattherock]

Hey man I went through a lot of the same stuff about 2 or 3 years ago myself. I'd be happy to talk with you if you want to give me a call. I'm heading out at 0500 EST Fri to the range and will shoot 0800-1200. It's a two-and-a-half-hour drive to the range. If you want to talk during that time tomorrow when I'm on the highway I have the time and the interest to help you out. Send me a private message if applicable.


Dan

 

[Lkwoolsey]

2nd on Cleckners book.

 

[seansmd]

I liked the Cleckner book, and his podcasts as well as Frank's and others.... I remember him being more MOA, and ambivalent but seemed to always answer or teach in MOA. I could be wrong, I bought my MOA scope after finishing this book and other research and wished I had chosen MIL. As a NOOB I didn't know, I am an engineer and doing the conversions is fine, but always speaking a different language just gets old after a while.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Cleckner's book is the most comprehensive and readable beginner's book on the subject that I am aware of. Ryan explains both MILS and MOA thoroughly.

Although, he falls into some of the wrong thinking that we hear constantly, such as measuring misses at distance in linear measurements and converting to an angular measurement (page 134) and the "sage" advice of "....if you think in feet and inches you might be more comfortable with MOA....and MILS is metric...." bullshit (page 135).

But, until Lowlight, or someone else writes a better book, this is the best I've seen.

 

[seansmd]

Cleckner's book is the most comprehensive and readable beginner's book on the subject that I am aware of. Ryan explains both MILS and MOA thoroughly.

Although, he falls into some of the wrong thinking that we hear constantly, such as measuring misses at distance in linear measurements and converting to an angular measurement (page 134) and the "sage" advice of "....if you think in feet and inches you might be more comfortable with MOA....and MILS is metric...." bullshit (page 135).

But, until Lowlight, or someone else writes a better book, this is the best I've seen.

@Skookum great tag to the exact page that sealed my decision on I think in inches so naturally I should buy MOA.... again its not wrong, but since I don't have a group of people who I shoot with who are MOA, and I am learning, choosing MIL would have provided me alignment with where the communicty is going and a better base language.

 

[308pirate]

I have a Sig Tango 6 mil/mil scope on a .308 Winchester rifle.

The book i purchased is all MOA

And the concept of use (which is what you really need to understand now) is exactly the same regardless of units.

You're a beginner. You don't need to understand application just yet. You need to understand concepts and basic theory.

You can take my advice or not, but I suggest you do.

 

[want2learn]

Thanks everyone, and especially Dan....i'm learning a lot and really appreciate all the help.

 

[RackOpsTactical]

1st Another vote for on Cleckners book.
2nd Also highly recommend the Snipers Hide Online Training.
3rd Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting Bryan Litz.

Do those three and you'll be well on your way.

 

[Racer88]

Yep... I think I recommended Cleckner's book in your other thread.

As has been explained, MOA... MIL... doesn't matter. And, no... the are NOT "English vs Metric." There is no conversion needed between them. Likewise, as has been said already, there is no need to convert from the angular measurement (MOA or MIL) to linear measurements. As long as your reticle subtensions match the turrets, you measure misses / corrections in the angular units, whichever they are.

If I have an MOA scope, I measure the miss by the subtensions (little hash marks, which I know are 2-MOA each) in the reticle. So, if I missed by one hash mark, that means I make the corresponding 2-MOA adjustment in the turret (8 clicks, since each click is 1/4-MOA).

If it's a MIL scope, and the miss is by 1 hash mark in the reticle (and I know each hash mark is 0.1-MIL), then I make a 0.1-MIL correction in the turret (usually 1 click, since most are 0.1-MIL per click).

It doesn't matter what the miss is in terms of inches, centimeters, cubits, or miles. Use the angular measurements conveniently integrated in your scope. No conversions needed at all.

 

[want2learn]

thanks...

i guess i was under the impression that the primary calculation one makes with a rifle scope is for ranging ....at least that's the impression i got from reading a couple of books.
....as such, employing the techniques delineated in the text, one went through calculations to establish range.... which is then converted to mils to accommodate my mil/mil set up.

If i'm understanding what is generally done in PRS type matches or bench rest type set ups, ranging is established with a rangefinder or the range is communicated to the shooter in advance...hence no additional calculation is generally needed.

At this point ,with vertical decision making completed, one accommodates for horizontal displacement (wind and also correcting for misses ) using a direct mil/mil reticle/turret adjustment.

Dan I hope i haven't messed this up, I"m still going through all the information you were so generous to provide to me.

 

[308pirate]

thanks...

i guess i was under the impression that the primary calculation one makes with a rifle scope is for ranging ....at least that's the impression i got from reading a couple of books.
....as such, employing the techniques delineated in the text, one went through calculations to establish range.... which is then converted to mils to accommodate my mil/mil set up.

If i'm understanding what is generally done in PRS type matches or bench rest type set ups, ranging is established with a rangefinder or the range is communicated to the shooter in advance...hence no additional calculation is generally needed.

At this point ,with vertical decision making completed, one accommodates for horizontal displacement (wind and also correcting for misses ) using a direct mil/mil reticle/turret adjustment.

Dan I hope i haven't messed this up, I"m still going through all the information you were so generous to provide to me.

Correct.

Two minor points:

1. The method for correcting for wind or misses is the same whether you use a mil/mil scope or a MOA/MOA scope
2. There are ranging formulas for use with MOA reticles. They are just as easy/difficult to use as the formulas for ranging with milliradian reticles. TLDR: use a rangefinder.

 

[Racer88]

thanks...

i guess i was under the impression that the primary calculation one makes with a rifle scope is for ranging ....at least that's the impression i got from reading a couple of books.
....as such, employing the techniques delineated in the text, one went through calculations to establish range.... which is then converted to mils to accommodate my mil/mil set up.

If i'm understanding what is generally done in PRS type matches or bench rest type set ups, ranging is established with a rangefinder or the range is communicated to the shooter in advance...hence no additional calculation is generally needed.

At this point ,with vertical decision making completed, one accommodates for horizontal displacement (wind and also correcting for misses ) using a direct mil/mil reticle/turret adjustment.

Dan I hope i haven't messed this up, I"m still going through all the information you were so generous to provide to me.

Correct.

Two minor points:

1. The method for correcting for wind or misses is the same whether you use a mil/mil scope or a MOA/MOA scope
2. There are ranging formulas for use with MOA reticles. They are just as easy/difficult to use as the formulas for ranging with milliradian reticles. TLDR: use a rangefinder.

Oh.... yeah... using the reticle to range is another matter. In my previous post, I was referring to shooting and making corrections for misses, etc... at known ranges. But, as 308pirate said... for the purposes of ranging, there are different formulas for the respective systems (MIL / MOA). Of course, you'll need to know the approximate linear dimensions of the target being ranged.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As you may have seen in my other post, i've registered for a beginner class coming up in a few months.
I thought perhaps it would be best if i reviewed and learned some of the important/critical aspects in advance of the class.

I would suggest that you sign up for the online training videos here (I noticed your tag doesn't show it so that's why I'm mentioning it).
For the $15 per month, it's about the best value anywhere for a beginner.
Watch the videos & have your rifle handy to practice what you see on the videos.

Do that for a couple months in addition to other things & I think you'll be way ahead of the average beginner curve.

Even if you don't keep the online training video subscription on permanently, at least a couple months of it is way worth the money.

 

[want2learn]

thanks
i'm just learning and really appreciate all the advice and help.

 

[Racer88]

I would suggest that you sign up for the online training videos here (I noticed your tag doesn't show it so that's why I'm mentioning it).
For the $15 per month, it's about the best value anywhere for a beginner.
Watch the videos & have your rifle handy to practice what you see on the videos.

Do that for a couple months in addition to other things & I think you'll be way ahead of the average beginner curve.

Even if you don't keep the online training video subscription on permanently, at least a couple months of it is way worth the money.

thanks
i'm just learning and really appreciate all the advice and help.

Totally agree. Read that book and sign up for the online training here (only $15 / month, and you can cancel anytime). I binge-watched about 45 videos in less than two weeks (over the Christmas holidays). Good stuff. They're not too long, so they're tolerable for those of us with short attention spans. I'm not suggesting you have to watch 45 of the videos before the course. Read the book and at least watch the "FOM" (fundamentals of marksmanship) series of online training videos here on the Hide. Do just THAT, and you'll be ahead of the game and likely have a much easier time assimilating the lessons at the live course you've signed up for.

Enjoy! This is FUN! Easily a life-long hobby / pursuit (like golf.... but for men!).

 

[Tony1320]

I would take a look at the Snipershide online training

 

[Danattherock]

Dan I hope i haven't messed this up, I"m still going through all the information you were so generous to provide to me.

You got it man.

Ballistic app, Chrono, SD and velocity, limit vertical dispersion so you can focus on the horizontal. Think about your neck tension and get control over it. Using quality brass and components will avoid a lot of unnecessary headache.

'Dope disconnect' video from Frank Galli (Lowlight-owner here) I sent is pure gold on how to true dope. I searched for the article high and low but could not locate it. Ballistic app is just that, an app. Bullet tells truth, making curve line up in app by truing the solver is the way to go. Hard dope not hope dope is moral of this story.

Continue to text or call, it's a tough nut to crack for a beginner, but you will be soon teaching someone yourself. Most of all, enjoy the process. It is deliciously complicated, but very rewarding, to advance this skill set.


Dan
NC

 

[want2learn]

so much to learn...

i've been working on loads recently and have obtained a couple of 3 shot groups that proved down to .6MOA (with some even down to .4MOA groupings) but too many are still over 1 MOA. It's humbling when i see the tiny groups posted here.

....so while i work on technique and learning the math and sport, i will begin to address neck tension.as well. I handload weighing each round individually. I have a Forster Co-AX press and their full sizing dies so i guess i'll need to purchase an expander die and mandrels as well as some sort of lathe. I think my better half is going to kill me with all of the expenses but i really enjoy this.

appreciate all the help

 

[Snuby642]

Buy the wife her own 308, let her customize it anyway she wants.
Hopefully there will be some women she can shoot with.

Take a second job!

 

[Danattherock]

Forster will custom hone neck portion of their sizing die and give you more control over neck tension, if needed. Call sometime and we will discuss and identify if you need it. Good buddy of mine finished the PRS season well into top 50. He uses unmodified Forster dies. Bushing dies offer a lot of flexibility, but with all things reloading, there are numerous ways to achieve the same outcome. That's why you see all the varying opinions on reloading forums.

 

[want2learn]

thanks, will do
(wife for some reason isn't a big fan of rifles, not sure why...... thankfully she loves her P7, so we share that sport....as per jobs, i'm too old and too beat up for yet another job)

 

[Scott P.]

Have you looked at "Long Range Shooting Handbook" by Ryan Cleckner?

I bought the book on Amazon and really found it useful. It also came with a free Kindle download version which was very handy to be able to read anywhere.

 

[Scott P.]

I know you mentioned "book", but I would also recommend a series of YouTube videos entitled "Sniper 101" by Tiberasaurus Rex. Highly informative and easy to understand. Just make sure to watch them in order, 1-101. Don't go skipping around because you may get lost in the shuffle. Much of the information given is expounding on previous videos.

 

[want2learn]

thanks, will review them as well