WTF barrel worms?

Sako man

Sako man

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    • Sep 7, 2012
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    Galactic Sector ZZ9 Alpha Xray Plural.
    #1
    Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from erosion? Whats the copper color stuff, is that copper or rust? Gunsmiths chime in please.

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    Screen Shot 2021-12-22 at 8.13.51 PM.png
     
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    #3
    Sako man said:
    Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from erosion? Whats the copper color stuff, is that copper or rust? Gunsmiths chime in please.

    View attachment 7767379View attachment 7767380View attachment 7767381
    Click to expand...
    Start your air compressor, get it up to pressure, blow the CLEANING PATCH LINT out of the barrel.....

    Optional; re-scope for a waste of time.
     
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    #5
    Sako man said:
    Please elaborate, is that lint that has somehow pitted the barrel? What it looks like to me is erosion?
    Click to expand...
    No, he’s saying it’s lint, not etching. Which I don’t believe, but it’s easy to check. Run another patch dry and see if those spots move, clear up, and/or change.

    Copper color in a streak along the bore is almost always copper. Rust in the bore won’t look smooth, and a few passes with a bronze brush will knock it out, basically.

    Looks to me like pitting from corrosion, can’t explain the pattern though. Chime back in with your findings after you run another dry patch and re-scope.
     
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    #7
    KnowNothing256 said:
    No, he’s saying it’s lint, not etching. Which I don’t believe, but it’s easy to check. Run another patch dry and see if those spots move, clear up, and/or change.

    Copper color in a streak along the bore is almost always copper. Rust in the bore won’t look smooth, and a few passes with a bronze brush will knock it out, basically.

    Looks to me like pitting from corrosion, can’t explain the pattern though. Chime back in with your findings after you run another dry patch and re-scope.
    Click to expand...
    Don't think there is any way it could be lint. I have scrubbed that barrel down with a nylon brush, I am certain it's pitted, just wondering from what???
     
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    #9
    Sako man said:
    Please elaborate, is that lint that has somehow pitted the barrel? What it looks like to me is erosion?
    Click to expand...
    I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

    Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

    Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.
     
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    #11
    Threadcutter308 said:
    I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

    Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

    Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.
    Click to expand...
    Deal!
     
    #13
    Threadcutter308 said:
    I'll bet $10 it's lint, I've seen it before. Look at the bottom of the bottom picture. See how the lint lays over the top of the striations of the barrel ? Lint isn't going to "pit" a barrel. No offense intended, but I'm also willing to bet this may be the first time you've scoped your barrel. This is why so many people are against barrel scopes. Additionally, many barrels look like shit, but shoot lights out.

    Something else that should make you feel better.....I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt. My barrel scope comes out of the tool box rarely anymore. I've spent a lot of time chasing Goblins because of it. It's not a bad tool, but one has to know how to interpret the information the tool is providing.

    Blow out the barrel and post your results, particularly if I'm wrong. It always helps closing the loop, good or bad.
    Click to expand...

    If that top picture is lint, with the copper streak running through it, then Ill wear a sign saying "Im a Fucking Retard" around my neck for the entire Christmas period.
     
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    #15
    Sako man said:
    How's it shoot?
    Click to expand...
    It's a Rem. 700 30-06 deer rifle with a plastic stock. LOL! That being said I can't see any degradation in the accuracy from when it was new but I never shoot more than just a few rounds prior to hunting season to check the zero so I can't say what it would do if more shots were fired.
     
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    #19
    Pattern reminds me of what it looks like when crystals form. Can this be a chemical crystals/pattern etching? Can the dark be carbon build up and thats not why it in all the channel and why it looks like its lifting in places?

    End of day if the accuracy is acceptable, why worry. Being its a hunting rifle doubtful that any animal is going to wake up from the dead to complain.
     
    #20
    Looks like barrel etching to me. What type of barrel solvents do you use? I have learned to NEVER leave any solvent in a barrel overnight due to prior etching from some products. YMMV...
     
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    #23
    This looks like etching.

    Etching is caused by a chemical reaction on the metal.

    I had it happen to me on a couple of barrels I left shooters choice cleaner in.

    Will definitely happen if you leave an ammonia based cleaner in.


    Used to be you could leave old hoppes in the barrel.... used to be.

    Definitely could leave WW2 and Korean War Era bore cleaner bc it was kerosene based.

    Today, if you want to leave something in the bore, I recommend Kroil.

    Etching fills with copper after the first shot, and after that, normally, normally doesn't affect accuracy.

    Best to yall.
     
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    #31
    It's pitting/etching.

    Gun/barrel is from 2014 or before? How many rounds on the barrel? What cleaners have you been using, type of ammo/powder etc...

    Guys...even the SS barrels if you let them sit long enough with out cleaning and depending on the environment can have an effect on how long it can take...but they will pit...they will corrode! I guarantee it. The barrels are not made out of surgical stainless.

    The type of cleaner you are using etc...and how your doing it can be the cause as well.

    Put a drop of blood on the outside of the barrel. Wipe it off after a couple of days...pitting and corrosion will have started.

    The orange color stuff is copper from the bullets.

    Yes this type of etching/pitting will also cause accuracy issues as well.

    5R rifling as well. Most likely our barrel the OP has.

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
     
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    #32
    I say, go ahead and order another barrel.
    I would just shoot it, let it fill with copper and roll til you can’t accept the accuracy no more.

    Rebarrel



    Rinse and repeat.

    Also, are you chasing the lands.
    It may not be that etching opening groups up.
     
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    #36
    longebow said:
    Looks like barrel etching to me. What type of barrel solvents do you use? I have learned to NEVER leave any solvent in a barrel overnight due to prior etching from some products. YMMV...
    Click to expand...
    Just some M-Pro-7 de carbonizer, so not really solvent, and a patch. I don't like to use anything strong in my barrels. The etching could have been in there for years and I just now noticed?
     
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    #38
    Frank Green said:
    It's pitting/etching.

    Gun/barrel is from 2014 or before? How many rounds on the barrel? What cleaners have you been using, type of ammo/powder etc...

    Guys...even the SS barrels if you let them sit long enough with out cleaning and depending on the environment can have an effect on how long it can take...but they will pit...they will corrode! I guarantee it. The barrels are not made out of surgical stainless.

    The type of cleaner you are using etc...and how your doing it can be the cause as well.

    Put a drop of blood on the outside of the barrel. Wipe it off after a couple of days...pitting and corrosion will have started.

    The orange color stuff is copper from the bullets.

    Yes this type of etching/pitting will also cause accuracy issues as well.

    5R rifling as well. Most likely our barrel the OP has.

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
    Click to expand...
    Ok, thank you. Barrel is pre 2014. I got it used so not sure how many rounds. There were long periods of time where the barrel was uncleaned, but generally I have only used a gentle carbon solvent in the barrel M-Pro-7. I think it's either from neglect, or probably me not cleaning the barrel properly. Time to be more aware of how I maintain my barrels. As mentioned this could have been going on for years and I just didn't notice. Next barrel will be less neglected.

    I did have a theory that perhaps there was moisture in the barrel and when shot the liquid compressed against the metal at super high pressures and caused the damage. Someone had mentioned cavitation. I will accept any theory at this point. But once again, and to your point the barrel did sit uncleaned for a long time, so you are most likely right, I'm sure, after all it's your field.
     
    Last edited:
    #43
    Sako man said:
    Ok, thank you. Barrel is pre 2014. I got it used so not sure how many rounds. There were long periods of time where the barrel was uncleaned, but generally I have only used a gentle carbon solvent in the barrel M-Pro-7. I think it's either from neglect, or probably me not cleaning the barrel properly. Time to be more aware of how I maintain my barrels. As mentioned this could have been going on for years and I just didn't notice. Next barrel will be less neglected.

    I did have a theory that perhaps there was moisture in the barrel and when shot the liquid compressed against the metal at super high pressures and caused the damage. Someone had mentioned cavitation. I will accept any theory at this point. But once again, and to your point the barrel did sit uncleaned for a long time, so you are most likely right, I'm sure, after all it's your field.
    Click to expand...
    I’ll say no to a liquid/moisture being in the bore and being compressed when it was shot. That I’ve never seen.

    but you do bring up a reminder to me….everytime you shoot the gun…when the bullet leaves the bore it creates a suction and sucks in the outside air. Whatever is in the air gets brought into the bore of the barrel as well.

    So when you leave the bore of the barrel sit for an extended period of time..the fouling from the powder etc…will react to moisture and the humidity in the atmosphere. This is where and when the problems like this seem to happen.

    I’ve had a few customers over the years who put the guns away dirty and guess what. They lived really close to the ocean. Just imagine all that salt/mositure in the air and what it’s doing.

    About a year ago one customer got lucky. He shot his rifle for around 700 rounds and never cleaned it. When he took the muzzle brake off once he did finally clean it…and he started getting the carbon off the face of the crown…it was all pitted. Where he got lucky was there was no pitting inside the bore and the gun still shot great.

    This is where this stuff is weird…we cannot always replicate what happens from one shooter to the next. Just too many variables but a lot of similarities.

    Just had a barrel sent to the metallurgical lab a month back. It had what looked like voids in the material. Looked like random pits in it. What the lab found out was it was actually little mounds built up. As tall as .004” of an inch. The build up had traces of chlorine in it. I know the s/n and heat lot that barrel came out of. It’s the only barrel out of that whole lot that had any sort of an issue. So I’ll rule out it was the steel and it didn’t leave the shop looking like that. I’ve ever seen anything like it at all. The gun manufacturer nor us can figure out how or where chlorine would‘ve come from. Now start thinking of things beyond our and the gun makers control once it’s out of our hands.

    Later, Frank
     
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    #45
    Frank Green said:
    I’ll say no to a liquid/moisture being in the bore and being compressed when it was shot. That I’ve never seen.

    but you do bring up a reminder to me….everytime you shoot the gun…when the bullet leaves the bore it creates a suction and sucks in the outside air. Whatever is in the air gets brought into the bore of the barrel as well.

    So when you leave the bore of the barrel sit for an extended period of time..the fouling from the powder etc…will react to moisture and the humidity in the atmosphere. This is where and when the problems like this seem to happen.

    I’ve had a few customers over the years who put the guns away dirty and guess what. They lived really close to the ocean. Just imagine all that salt/mositure in the air and what it’s doing.

    About a year ago one customer got lucky. He shot his rifle for around 700 rounds and never cleaned it. When he took the muzzle brake off once he did finally clean it…and he started getting the carbon off the face of the crown…it was all pitted. Where he got lucky was there was no pitting inside the bore and the gun still shot great.

    This is where this stuff is weird…we cannot always replicate what happens from one shooter to the next. Just too many variables but a lot of similarities.

    Just had a barrel sent to the metallurgical lab a month back. It had what looked like voids in the material. Looked like random pits in it. What the lab found out was it was actually little mounds built up. As tall as .004” of an inch. The build up had traces of chlorine in it. I know the s/n and heat lot that barrel came out of. It’s the only barrel out of that whole lot that had any sort of an issue. So I’ll rule out it was the steel and it didn’t leave the shop looking like that. I’ve ever seen anything like it at all. The gun manufacturer nor us can figure out how or where chlorine would‘ve come from. Now start thinking of things beyond our and the gun makers control once it’s out of our hands.

    Later, Frank
    Click to expand...
    Tap water and Brake cleaner would be the only things I could think of. Tap water I doubt would be large enough quantities, brake cleaner on the other hand definitely could
     
    #47
    Seen it before. Also in the camp that's not sure exactly why it happens. A friend/coworker had a 6mm barrel that was shooting very well. He had chambered it himself and bore scoped it after chambering, "break in" (~200 rounds), and cleaning. Everything looked great & shot great. We went a few weeks later to a local match and mid-match he started having serious pressure issues and lots of vertical stringing. He was near book max loads but should not have had issues like he was, and he wasn't having issues in the lead up to the match.

    Anyway, we go home, he leaves the gun in the case for like 2 months before he has time and takes it back out to investigate WTF. Bore scopes it now with another 120 rounds and 2 months of time and it has the little etching like the OP's pic. Rifle won't group worth a shit, runs all factory and hand loads hot (flat primer, case head swipes, etc..)... So he stripped it down clean, shot a few rounds, and in those little pits immediately filled up with copper and started leaving copper streaks down the rifling towards the muzzle-- like lots of copper. We don't know when they showed up, if they were the problem or the result, or totally arbitrary... Nonetheless, the solution was to chop the pits off and have a 20" trainer barrel that now shoots very well.
     
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    #48
    It's defiantly something to do with what I am cleaning them with, how I am storing them, something to do with me. I noticed same thing in one of my SRS barrels, basically my other 308. So.....FUCK! Pardon the French but this is systemic! Ok, what is the procedure to clean my barrels and store them? This is a bummer.

    Screen Shot 2021-12-23 at 6.20.38 PM.png
     
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    #49
    Clean them out with whatever solvent gets them carbon-free, then a lubricant that won't dry off. Some follow with a dry patch, but if @Frank Green doesn't then that seems as safe a bet as any. You can use gun oil, Kroil, or any number of CLP-type cleaners, and no shortage of opinions about which is "best."

    I feel your pain, I shot my Howa Mini in the dark, air temps were pretty cold, then I tossed it in the case and didn't look at it for a week. Opened the case up to find significant rust on the exterior of the barrel, and the borescope confirmed my fears that it was very much in the bore too. Tossed the barrel without even shooting it, I was so ticked off.
     
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