WTF is going on with KAC stuff?

[The King]

And does someone really clean the piston in their gun? I have opened it maybe 3 times and it has looked the same every time, be it 100, 1k or 3k ammo since last cleaning.

I think I saw a dude clean a piston once on an M14 in 1998. He had been a Marine and had habits. So no...not really.

 

[XP1K]

When I was just getting into the large frame game roughly ten years ago I could have gotten an sr25 in the 3k-3500 range and an lmt was going for about $2500. I should have bought an sr25 then and been done with it.

Lord knows I've spent more than that on the three others I've had since then. Sig,pof and now pws. Still have the pws.

The pws has been a good shooter. I had been thoroughly impressed with their mk1 series with the 223 wylde chamber, especially suppressed, so I decided to try their large frame offering. I did have a gas block malfunction and the bolt catch broke one time early on but other than that it's been good.

 

[TacosGigante]

When I was just getting into the large frame game roughly ten years ago I could have gotten an sr25 in the 3k-3500 range and an lmt was going for about $2500. I should have bought an sr25 then and been done with it.

Lord knows I've spent more than that on the three others I've had since then. Sig,pof and now pws. Still have the pws.

The pws has been a good shooter. I had been thoroughly impressed with their mk1 series with the 223 wylde chamber, especially suppressed, so I decided to try their large frame offering. I did have a gas block malfunction and the bolt catch broke one time early on but other than that it's been good.

I too wish I bought an SR-25 a few years ago, before they started going for the same as a used Honda Civic.

 

[The King]

I too wish I bought an SR-25 a few years ago, before they started going for the same as a used Honda Civic.

I wish I'd bought an LMT MWS. So I did. Its a very nice gun and shoots very well.

 

[XP1K]

I too wish I bought an SR-25 a few years ago, before they started going for the same as a used Honda Civic.

The old buy once cry once. I've cried twice now and I can feel the tears welling up again lol.

 

[Bellerion]

I can’t understand paying $3k for any DI AR15 of any kind. Why? Because half of the hard to make stuff (a good piston and gas block) ain’t even there.

It’s a $8 tube stuck in a $15 gas block up there yo.

You would be hard pressed to trade me 2 SuperDuty Geisseles for 1 KAC. Soon to be 3 or 4 SuperDuty guns.

Please excuse the information "insertion" related to King's last remark. Followed the hide for year's and greatly enjoy the informative banter AND facts and now older will make an attempt to post ONLY firsthand, intelligent information. That being said contract machining and it's facets have been my life for 3 decade's now and the comment made by King about the piston and gas block is, unfortunately for consumers, embarrassingly accurate...we love our "hobbies" here in America and thank God for them may they never leave us however in total honesty I built two fixtures from ground up in late '19 for a client to make bolt carrier gas keys on a horizontal machining center "tombstone" style; only a 2 pallet machine however by design I made the tombstones and fixtures to produce 56 finished products, minus polishing, in just under 168 minutes. Now that's one full pallets run from blank to finish and when one pallet is finished, it's shuttled out and the second enters to run the same programming repeating the same process.. now do the math; I'm intentionally removing material and cutting tool cost because they are minor variable's. Take those 56 finished components and multiply by let's say $20, like a Brownells number, you'll find $1120. Now examine that the machine is making a finished carrier gas key in just at 3 minutes, selling for $20 per unit, that's approximately $6.70 manufacturing unit cost per key. Do the math on a "good" mid level gas key they're tripling their money. And as of two months ago the company was running that horizontal 24/7 and selling all they could make. Moral of this true story is that our beloved friends who manufacture weapons and components have no remorse of emptying our pockets when they feel the need. Hope this was informative in some small way.
V

 

[Bellerion]

That’s cool! But they need to invest in robots and up their game.

But I gotta say that sounds like you got them running really good! Nice!

Not being cynical but why would they invest those thousands in solid Fanuc bots and carriers when I factually "know" that they pay a 20 something year old young man to stand at that machine and keep it cycling for $14 an hour? And He'll keep doing it because it's all he knows. That is the true tragedy here.

 

[TheGerman]

Curious if you're considering any pistons-I have a mix of them along with DI and experienced zero downside other than some unique parts-
On the 556 side, I've an old LWRCi a3 still going strong, ( and yes it's a piece of piss to clean and the adjustable gas helps shooting suppressed), and in 308 POF with a 5R barrel from when they were cool back around 2010 ( with everyones' favorite, an IOR scope on top ), as well as a recent POF Revolution both of which do have some clever touches...If the internets are accurate, their QC is spotty of late, but curious if they are "good rifles". I have an MWS, but the older POF isn't worse in any regard. Different, but not worse.
I'm not OAF, just a few thousand rounds a year between the 308s, so it would be a while before I wear anything out...

For me, a piston is still a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure if it was a byproduct of the solicitation that got us the SCAR or just timing, but I remember in the early/mid 2000s it seemed like all of a sudden a lot of manufacturers got together and were like.....we need to make a piston AR. Aside from the actual SCAR, I remember there were a ton of piston uppers and complete piston guns. If I remember right, SIG at the time was the most popular (and also had the worst trigger on the planet).

Places like ARF were climbing over themselves to jump on the piston bandwagon because they didn't want a gun that 'shits where it eats' and now wanted an AR platform that they said was more accurate but less reliable than an AK47/AK74 to now have the best of both worlds with a super reliable piston in the super accurate AR. This was also during the same time people bought their AR based on 'the chart', rumors of an AK having a malfunction were shouted down, and the mantra of needing to clean the AR from top to bottom if you even looked at it funny or it might malfunction just like it did in the 'Nam, were the understood truths.

Then after a while.....everyone.....just....kind of....went back....to shooting their DI carbine.

If I recall, the thing that stood out from testing the piston system versus the DI was that the piston system actually had its internal parts stay cooler over the same length of fire than the DI did. That translates to longer maintenance cycles. Never could find out if that was planned in the design or just a , oh hey look at this! kind of thing. But again, why change over an entire weapons platform because 'it runs slightly cooler' and brings really nothing else to the table. Any differences between the two in the AR platform are negligible and do not merit any kind of changeover. The only way a piston based design shows up is if the entire platform just excels regardless of if it has a piston or not.

With that said, I have a SCAR20. I also shoot DI guns 4-5 times a week and have never felt myself needing a piston.

 

[theLBC]

For me, a piston is still a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure if it was a byproduct of the solicitation that got us the SCAR or just timing, but I remember in the early/mid 2000s it seemed like all of a sudden a lot of manufacturers got together and were like.....we need to make a piston AR. Aside from the actual SCAR, I remember there were a ton of piston uppers and complete piston guns. If I remember right, SIG at the time was the most popular (and also had the worst trigger on the planet).

Places like ARF were climbing over themselves to jump on the piston bandwagon because they didn't want a gun that 'shits where it eats' and now wanted an AR platform that they said was more accurate but less reliable than an AK47/AK74 to now have the best of both worlds with a super reliable piston in the super accurate AR. This was also during the same time people bought their AR based on 'the chart', rumors of an AK having a malfunction were shouted down, and the mantra of needing to clean the AR from top to bottom if you even looked at it funny or it might malfunction just like it did in the 'Nam, were the understood truths.

Then after a while.....everyone.....just....kind of....went back....to shooting their DI carbine.

If I recall, the thing that stood out from testing the piston system versus the DI was that the piston system actually had its internal parts stay cooler over the same length of fire than the DI did. That translates to longer maintenance cycles. Never could find out if that was planned in the design or just a , oh hey look at this! kind of thing. But again, why change over an entire weapons platform because 'it runs slightly cooler' and brings really nothing else to the table. Any differences between the two in the AR platform are negligible and do not merit any kind of changeover. The only way a piston based design shows up is if the entire platform just excels regardless of if it has a piston or not.

With that said, I have a SCAR20. I also shoot DI guns 4-5 times a week and have never felt myself needing a piston.

hot gasses are contained in the barrel and front of the rifle (for the most past), so cleaner running as well as cooler.
for whatever reason, the 20S is just better, lucky or not.

 

[Bellerion]

For me, a piston is still a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure if it was a byproduct of the solicitation that got us the SCAR or just timing, but I remember in the early/mid 2000s it seemed like all of a sudden a lot of manufacturers got together and were like.....we need to make a piston AR. Aside from the actual SCAR, I remember there were a ton of piston uppers and complete piston guns. If I remember right, SIG at the time was the most popular (and also had the worst trigger on the planet).

Places like ARF were climbing over themselves to jump on the piston bandwagon because they didn't want a gun that 'shits where it eats' and now wanted an AR platform that they said was more accurate but less reliable than an AK47/AK74 to now have the best of both worlds with a super reliable piston in the super accurate AR. This was also during the same time people bought their AR based on 'the chart', rumors of an AK having a malfunction were shouted down, and the mantra of needing to clean the AR from top to bottom if you even looked at it funny or it might malfunction just like it did in the 'Nam, were the understood truths.

Then after a while.....everyone.....just....kind of....went back....to shooting their DI carbine.

If I recall, the thing that stood out from testing the piston system versus the DI was that the piston system actually had its internal parts stay cooler over the same length of fire than the DI did. That translates to longer maintenance cycles. Never could find out if that was planned in the design or just a , oh hey look at this! kind of thing. But again, why change over an entire weapons platform because 'it runs slightly cooler' and brings really nothing else to the table. Any differences between the two in the AR platform are negligible and do not merit any kind of changeover. The only way a piston based design shows up is if the entire platform just excels regardless of if it has a piston or not.

With that said, I have a SCAR20. I also shoot DI guns 4-5 times a week and have never felt myself needing a piston.

Pardon the intrusion, and abuse as seen fit however German the post you painted of purchasing "your eyes occupance" for 2/3 the price I believe it precludes one factor. In NO way is this any type of insult to anyone but we, meaning NATO and the EU have pushed that insane midget named Putin into a corner which I totally accept. He instigated a threat to a lesser dominion for personal reasons and if on no other grounds, BY GOD I DON'T LIKE BULLY'S!
Having said that he is quite obviously upset at some losses and possibly delusional. An ex spy and narcissist is extremely dangerous with his voice/print command's so close to the " screw you option" , period.
I do not know what the next 10 seconds hold much less the next 10 month's or years, however, I was raised by an American Soldier born in 1913 and He taught me to "see" everyone as green, equal in all ways to God and hence respect that which you have earned and return the same. We do not live in a democracy but a Republic, if one cares to research and understand. Therefore it vexes me to unite your postings which are admirably intelligent with the outright blackheartedness that it requires to blatantly pronounce one's willingness to take advantage of those American's which have been defended by our military at such a high cost all in the name of what?? Profit, power, admiration, personal reward?
Please, do not lower yourself that far. One of Einsteins quote's which I keep continually in my mind's eye is simply this, " the only thing worse than ignorance is arrogance", these words are sent in humility, please accept them as such.
V

 

[epeet]

I've been a KAC fan for years. Bought an SR15 Mod 0, still runs like a champ. But we have a few M110s and SR25s at work. One of the ambi charging handle catches broke, maybe two years ago, leaving a sharp, ragged edge. Contacted their gov folks, who wanted the serial number, to validate it was a gov contract gun, and were then kind enough to tell me it would be $100+ to fix it. Fix their poor design or stamping on a $5000 gun. I took a file to it so it wouldn't hurt anyone and have been forever soured on them as a company. We break stuff all the time at work and companies always stand behind their stuff. Except KAC.

 

[Bellerion]

Yeah that’s sad. You are completely right though.
I got one set up at work taking 3.1 minutes per part on a tombstone, it averages 3,000 parts per month, running two shifts, the math shows it should get around 6,000, but it doesn’t.
But run robot 24 hours a day for only 4 days and we would have over 7,000 parts. Imagine it running 5 or more days a week!
Robots man!

No disagreement there Sir, it all comes down to "shopping". Where I built those is a job shop, they do quite a bit of commercial aerospace but have no AS9100 and simply bleed those in need.
I worked a contract for a tool manufacturing company, international to be specific and the operations name begins with "K", you're quick so I'm sure you've already figured them, with six axis grinders and packed stacks of three different style diamond impregnated wheels accompanied by a six position rear mounted turret pack changer, we were covering solid carbide coolant through drills from 4 mm to 16 mm and the occasional run of endmills on the side. Now the Fanuc robots were phenomenal in this setting cause it was ,pardon the phrase, but ' balls to the wall', hence my comment on the gas keys. That job shop is gulping air whereas the multinational is dropping six plus zeros on their grinders. It's all a game and I truly believe that you understand what I am saying.
Good to speak with an intelligent individual, please feel free to put foot to my ass anytime !!

 

[The King]

Please excuse the information "insertion" related to King's last remark. Followed the hide for year's and greatly enjoy the informative banter AND facts and now older will make an attempt to post ONLY firsthand, intelligent information. That being said contract machining and it's facets have been my life for 3 decade's now and the comment made by King about the piston and gas block is, unfortunately for consumers, embarrassingly accurate...we love our "hobbies" here in America and thank God for them may they never leave us however in total honesty I built two fixtures from ground up in late '19 for a client to make bolt carrier gas keys on a horizontal machining center "tombstone" style; only a 2 pallet machine however by design I made the tombstones and fixtures to produce 56 finished products, minus polishing, in just under 168 minutes. Now that's one full pallets run from blank to finish and when one pallet is finished, it's shuttled out and the second enters to run the same programming repeating the same process.. now do the math; I'm intentionally removing material and cutting tool cost because they are minor variable's. Take those 56 finished components and multiply by let's say $20, like a Brownells number, you'll find $1120. Now examine that the machine is making a finished carrier gas key in just at 3 minutes, selling for $20 per unit, that's approximately $6.70 manufacturing unit cost per key. Do the math on a "good" mid level gas key they're tripling their money. And as of two months ago the company was running that horizontal 24/7 and selling all they could make. Moral of this true story is that our beloved friends who manufacture weapons and components have no remorse of emptying our pockets when they feel the need. Hope this was informative in some small way.
V

I couldn't agree more.

I designed, machined, tested, and built QC fixtures for AR10 and AR15 components. The two expensive things really were re-work and bang time. You could dump 2000 rounds of ammo into something that wasn't going to work out at the end of the day....and then have to go and do it again to get to your 5000 round standard test run.

We developed a high speed camera system that measured BCG velocity and it did a great job of cutting down on that type of expense. You knew if the graph was in the zone that the gun would last - wasn't unlocking too early, had a good appreciation of bolt bounce levels, etc. You could reassess at different round counts to see how wearing in affected the velocity curve.

But...at this point we aren't designing new parts. We are machining to a 9/10 commonality system and then trying to differentiate with that extra 1/10th.

When someone whacks you for $3k on an AR15 they are laughing all the way to their Ferrari. I couldn't wait to get bought out. And I got to quit dealing with gun people professionally since they seem to come in the "know-it-all-asshole" form quite frequently. Much happier just shooting these things and making other shit for a living.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I always thought things should be priced fairly. Maybe its the "golden rule" - treat others like your mothers. I don't need some BRCC swilling tattooed gun bro telling me this thing is 5x as expensive as it needs to be because "GIMME!" Or that their new "hexagonal" machining pattern on the upper causes the overall system to cool better resulting in blah...blah....blah.

There HAVE been a few things that were innovative of late. Better BCG metallurgy and geometry. I think Surefire took the bolt design situation to the maximum with their OBC...longer stroke, elongated cam pin track, great coatings, and additional buffering in carrier. JP VMOS is also really cool. I'm happy to pay extra for their non-cosmetic enhancements.

 

[rottenruger]

So we all know KAC stuff usually fetched a premium/was priced pretty high at baseline as well as had an ebb/flow of availability, especially the newer stuff.

But over the last 6 months, all I've seen is KAC stuff go from normal/high pricing to absolute insanity whereas every other manufacturer who was somewhat close in price has stayed roughly the same.

For example, KAC SR15 lowers are now seen at 1200-1500+ and uppers are 2k-2500+. This is the exact same stuff you could get a lower for what, 600ish and a complete upper for 1k-1200 previously? Meanwhile, manufacturers like LMT are roughly the same price they were a year ago.

Did KAC stop making rifles or something? I'm seeing the retarded prices and initially chalked it up to morons; but the same ridiculous prices are everywhere as well as literally everything being OOS. Anywhere I do see them, its from some secondary seller on a WTS listing.

I love Knight's stuff and even laugh at the current asking prices.

Is my M110K1 worth like 100k now or some shit?

It's the old supply and demand, and KAC is telling you to buy elsewhere.

 

[Michael Threlkeld]

Sure, but I’d rather spend $3K on KAC before I spend $3K on Radian.

Lost me there. I have owned both the KAC SR16(do not still own it) and the Radian Model 1. Now granted always felt both were good rifles but the attention to details of the Radian were noticeable. The fit and finish of the Radian is superb. However the biggest difference I found was in the recoil impulse. Not that 5.56/.223 is something akin to a 300 Win Mag but nonetheless, the Radian does have a noticeably better recoil impulse. For me if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Radian.

 

[hlee]

Lost me there. I have owned both the KAC SR16(do not still own it) and the Radian Model 1. Now granted always felt both were good rifles but the attention to details of the Radian were noticeable. The fit and finish of the Radian is superb. However the biggest difference I found was in the recoil impulse. Not that 5.56/.223 is something akin to a 300 Win Mag but nonetheless, the Radian does have a noticeably better recoil impulse. For me if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Radian.

But, if you spend 3k on a Knights, you can make money on the resale. Spend the same on a Radian and you will probably get your money back...

 

[1911hombre]

 

[xxflyingturtlexx]

Lost me there. I have owned both the KAC SR16(do not still own it) and the Radian Model 1. Now granted always felt both were good rifles but the attention to details of the Radian were noticeable. The fit and finish of the Radian is superb. However the biggest difference I found was in the recoil impulse. Not that 5.56/.223 is something akin to a 300 Win Mag but nonetheless, the Radian does have a noticeably better recoil impulse. For me if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Radian.

Because it is like 100lbs heavier that is why. Lets be honest.