WWI poison gas attack in MO last weekend......

[fpgt72]

Yup in my shop.......I know there are more then a few "handy" guys on this forum, and in reading the title of this thread they are thinking, that stupid fuck did............

Yup I sure did it, but if you don't know you now will before you end up killing yourself, yes KILL YOURSELF.

I had known about this for years, but for some reason I was thinking it was carb cleaner, now thinking back on it I can't imagine how foolish I was, but you know the saying god loves fools, he makes so many of them.

What the deal is if you degrease your metal before welding with brakekleen then start to weld you are going to make phosgene gas, and this shit does not fuck around....AT ALL. Does not matter if it is "dry" or not, it will leave shit behind and if you heat it over 300F it will make phosgene gas....welding is a pretty hot thing.

I was building a platform and welding it together. I had just drilled and tapped some holes and hit it with brakekleen to get the cutting oil off the metal. Then grabbed the welder. I had in one sec a very strong "pool" smell. Chlorine, then a sec later, and I do mean SEC I started to feel real shitty. In that sec I knew what I had done, opened the big door to the shop and went outside. Had to lay down.

Wife can only be described as FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, called an old army buddy that does chemical warfare shit, and he told her to call poison control. She does, they told her if I had not gotten right out of there I would be dead, as in DEAD as Julius Caesar, and going about as peaceful. Got real foggy, hard to think and I basically laid down outside for a few minutes. Then went in the house and did what everyone does......what does the internet say.....oh boy, that is some bad stuff.

Poison control said if I am not coughing up blood, or bleeding out my eyes, yup that can happen, or nose bleeds don't bother taking me to the hospital, not anything they can do but watch me. They called her back in about an hour to see how I was.

I really thought it was carb cleaner, but stupid that stuff will burn, it could not be that.

My hope is it brings it back to the front of your minds, and perhaps lets some people new to "hobby welding" know about this. It seems natural, use brakekleen to get greasy parts clean.....but don't do it, you likely will die.

Now what about me? My sinus is still fucked, feels like I snorted a bunch of dish washer soap, just raw inside, likely the lining of my sinus is damaged, hot steamy showers feel real good to my nose. A mild sinus headache is all I have, so I got REAL lucky.

Be careful, Just wanted to bring it up incase it helps someone.

 

[phxfa]

Holy shit! I’ve used The Green can Non-chlorinated brake cleaner forever prior to welding. Did you use the red can stuff?

 

[jb0311]

Glad you’re ok. Close call for sure.

 

[Namekagon]

I’m not a welder, so I had no clue this was a thing. But holy crap! I use brake kleen on stuff occasionally. Might not do that so much anymore.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

When I was a kid, had a chemistry set and one of the 'experiments' was actually to make Chlorine Gas.

Also rode in pickup truck beds, drank from streams, jumped down stairs wearing a towel pretending to be Superman, Played Lawn Darts, had a Red Ryder. Like most of my generation

And yet here we are! We may be boomers, but we are survivors!

Sirhr

 

[hollowoutadime]

Casual welder here - thank you for the post.

 

[Short-bus]

I was going to respond Acetone when I heard it said in the video.

Glad you made it out alive with only a lesson learned. I've recently bought a small welder so I can teach myself how to weld. Just seems like a skill I need to have to round out my personal man card.

Branden

 

[stevieb92]

Yep, happened to me over two decades ago. I was welding underneath a JD crawler and using the red can (chlorinated stuff) to degrease some parts and then MIG weld. I immediately got out from underneath the equipment and got outside for fresh air asap. Haven't used the red can stuff since then on anything. That's a close call. Go play the lottery, because you're a lucky dude.

 

[ggmanning]

Always used alcohol or acetone not because I knew better. I could easily pick up the brake cleaner and use it. Had no idea. Thanks for the post.

 

[fpgt72]

Holy shit! I’ve used The Green can Non-chlorinated brake cleaner forever prior to welding. Did you use the red can stuff?

Yup CRC

 

[TxWelder35]

Yep always buy the non chlorinated so this doesn’t happen.

Glad you are alright.

 

[Maggot]

Yup in my shop.......I know there are more then a few "handy" guys on this forum, and in reading the title of this thread they are thinking, that stupid fuck did............

Yup I sure did it, but if you don't know you now will before you end up killing yourself, yes KILL YOURSELF.

I had known about this for years, but for some reason I was thinking it was carb cleaner, now thinking back on it I can't imagine how foolish I was, but you know the saying god loves fools, he makes so many of them.

What the deal is if you degrease your metal before welding with brakekleen then start to weld you are going to make phosgene gas, and this shit does not fuck around....AT ALL. Does not matter if it is "dry" or not, it will leave shit behind and if you heat it over 300F it will make phosgene gas....welding is a pretty hot thing.

I was building a platform and welding it together. I had just drilled and tapped some holes and hit it with brakekleen to get the cutting oil off the metal. Then grabbed the welder. I had in one sec a very strong "pool" smell. Chlorine, then a sec later, and I do mean SEC I started to feel real shitty. In that sec I knew what I had done, opened the big door to the shop and went outside. Had to lay down.

Wife can only be described as FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, called an old army buddy that does chemical warfare shit, and he told her to call poison control. She does, they told her if I had not gotten right out of there I would be dead, as in DEAD as Julius Caesar, and going about as peaceful. Got real foggy, hard to think and I basically laid down outside for a few minutes. Then went in the house and did what everyone does......what does the internet say.....oh boy, that is some bad stuff.

Poison control said if I am not coughing up blood, or bleeding out my eyes, yup that can happen, or nose bleeds don't bother taking me to the hospital, not anything they can do but watch me. They called her back in about an hour to see how I was.

I really thought it was carb cleaner, but stupid that stuff will burn, it could not be that.

My hope is it brings it back to the front of your minds, and perhaps lets some people new to "hobby welding" know about this. It seems natural, use brakekleen to get greasy parts clean.....but don't do it, you likely will die.

Now what about me? My sinus is still fucked, feels like I snorted a bunch of dish washer soap, just raw inside, likely the lining of my sinus is damaged, hot steamy showers feel real good to my nose. A mild sinus headache is all I have, so I got REAL lucky.

Be careful, Just wanted to bring it up incase it helps someone.

That explains some of your recent posts.

 

[fpgt72]

That explains some of your recent posts.

That was before, now imagine........

 

[NH4X]

When I was a kid, had a chemistry set and one of the 'experiments' was actually to make Chlorine Gas.

Also rode in pickup truck beds, drank from streams, jumped down stairs wearing a towel pretending to be Superman, Played Lawn Darts, had a Red Ryder. Like most of my generation

And yet here we are! We may be boomers, but we are survivors!

Sirhr

No chemistry set.......parents knew better. Ya , left off the part about riding the red wagon off of the barn holding an umbrella...... That didn't work out too well .And yet here I am . Oh yeah , glad OPs family didn't have to go through the " slow walk, sad singin ordeal " ,as "Uncle Brother " used to call it.

 

[Pbgt]

I used to repair a ton a transmission bell housing cracks, customers think they did you a favor de-greasing it ......you cant see it, but from a 100ft away the Brake cleaner fumes will choke you. Another one thats common is refrigerant tanks like r-12, customers wanted fittings welded on to make an portable air tank....once you heat any chemical mix, you change the chemical make up and its toxic. THINK before you weld ANY project.

 

[chevy_man]

I wear a 3m respirator with cartridges that are rated for 99% of organics and metals.

I can weld galvanized with it without any smell or getting sick later.


The old welders wear a respirator. They don't get old breathing that shit every day.

 

[mick243]

was an EOD guy for a while, some chem training.

yup, if you hit chlorinated brake cleaner with intense heat in a reducing environment (eg a welding arc) then you are a deep breath away from being dead. fully endorse and encourage (as others have mentioned) the use of full face respirators whenever using any hazardous chemicals and wherever possible have forced ventilation and someone observing from a distance who knows what you are doing and what to do if you go tits up.

OP - your lungs/sinuses/eyes will feel pretty fucked up for a while, possibly may never fully recover... lucky you got outside, even luckier that the missus didnt feel the need to go into the welding area to try and save you, that could have been a double fatality.

 

[rumblesniper]

Yup in my shop.......I know there are more then a few "handy" guys on this forum, and in reading the title of this thread they are thinking, that stupid fuck did............

Yup I sure did it, but if you don't know you now will before you end up killing yourself, yes KILL YOURSELF.

I had known about this for years, but for some reason I was thinking it was carb cleaner, now thinking back on it I can't imagine how foolish I was, but you know the saying god loves fools, he makes so many of them.

What the deal is if you degrease your metal before welding with brakekleen then start to weld you are going to make phosgene gas, and this shit does not fuck around....AT ALL. Does not matter if it is "dry" or not, it will leave shit behind and if you heat it over 300F it will make phosgene gas....welding is a pretty hot thing.

I was building a platform and welding it together. I had just drilled and tapped some holes and hit it with brakekleen to get the cutting oil off the metal. Then grabbed the welder. I had in one sec a very strong "pool" smell. Chlorine, then a sec later, and I do mean SEC I started to feel real shitty. In that sec I knew what I had done, opened the big door to the shop and went outside. Had to lay down.

Wife can only be described as FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, called an old army buddy that does chemical warfare shit, and he told her to call poison control. She does, they told her if I had not gotten right out of there I would be dead, as in DEAD as Julius Caesar, and going about as peaceful. Got real foggy, hard to think and I basically laid down outside for a few minutes. Then went in the house and did what everyone does......what does the internet say.....oh boy, that is some bad stuff.

Poison control said if I am not coughing up blood, or bleeding out my eyes, yup that can happen, or nose bleeds don't bother taking me to the hospital, not anything they can do but watch me. They called her back in about an hour to see how I was.

I really thought it was carb cleaner, but stupid that stuff will burn, it could not be that.

My hope is it brings it back to the front of your minds, and perhaps lets some people new to "hobby welding" know about this. It seems natural, use brakekleen to get greasy parts clean.....but don't do it, you likely will die.

Now what about me? My sinus is still fucked, feels like I snorted a bunch of dish washer soap, just raw inside, likely the lining of my sinus is damaged, hot steamy showers feel real good to my nose. A mild sinus headache is all I have, so I got REAL lucky.

Be careful, Just wanted to bring it up incase it helps someone.

That's very wild. Glad you are doing fine. They really need to destroy every war weapons from the old wars, especially WWII. A lot land mines all over the world yet to be destroyed.

 

[oneshot86]

Use a acetylene and oxygen torch to heat the area to be welded to burn contamination off followed by a ss wire brush.
I used to do mobile repair at some of the dry cleaning plants here and the gas given off from burning the dry cleaning chemicals was syanide. If you get a sweet tomatoe taste in your mouth, you know you need more air circ or change your position

 

[Sean the Nailer]

That's very wild. Glad you are doing fine. They really need to destroy every war weapons from the old wars, especially WWII. A lot land mines all over the world yet to be destroyed.

Interesting statement. Are you sure you're a member here? Or is this one of them fancy new 'computer fake-intelligence' generated thingy's?

 

[hollowoutadime]

Interesting statement. Are you sure you're a member here? Or is this one of them fancy new 'computer fake-intelligence' generated thingy's?

Man, that's what I was thinking, re-read his other posts.

 

[RonA]

Did it once myself. Felt it for several days. Acetone only now.

 

[lead ƒarmer]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I weld occasionally and use Brakleen all the time! It's great for degreasing and cleaning stuff, killing wasps (surprisingly well), and I use it a bunch as a gun cleaner too. This makes me a little nervous about my willy nilly use of the stuff...

 

[Salad_shooter]

Yup in my shop.......I know there are more then a few "handy" guys on this forum, and in reading the title of this thread they are thinking, that stupid fuck did............

Yup I sure did it, but if you don't know you now will before you end up killing yourself, yes KILL YOURSELF.

I had known about this for years, but for some reason I was thinking it was carb cleaner, now thinking back on it I can't imagine how foolish I was, but you know the saying god loves fools, he makes so many of them.

What the deal is if you degrease your metal before welding with brakekleen then start to weld you are going to make phosgene gas, and this shit does not fuck around....AT ALL. Does not matter if it is "dry" or not, it will leave shit behind and if you heat it over 300F it will make phosgene gas....welding is a pretty hot thing.

I was building a platform and welding it together. I had just drilled and tapped some holes and hit it with brakekleen to get the cutting oil off the metal. Then grabbed the welder. I had in one sec a very strong "pool" smell. Chlorine, then a sec later, and I do mean SEC I started to feel real shitty. In that sec I knew what I had done, opened the big door to the shop and went outside. Had to lay down.

Wife can only be described as FREAKED THE FUCK OUT, called an old army buddy that does chemical warfare shit, and he told her to call poison control. She does, they told her if I had not gotten right out of there I would be dead, as in DEAD as Julius Caesar, and going about as peaceful. Got real foggy, hard to think and I basically laid down outside for a few minutes. Then went in the house and did what everyone does......what does the internet say.....oh boy, that is some bad stuff.

Poison control said if I am not coughing up blood, or bleeding out my eyes, yup that can happen, or nose bleeds don't bother taking me to the hospital, not anything they can do but watch me. They called her back in about an hour to see how I was.

I really thought it was carb cleaner, but stupid that stuff will burn, it could not be that.

My hope is it brings it back to the front of your minds, and perhaps lets some people new to "hobby welding" know about this. It seems natural, use brakekleen to get greasy parts clean.....but don't do it, you likely will die.

Now what about me? My sinus is still fucked, feels like I snorted a bunch of dish washer soap, just raw inside, likely the lining of my sinus is damaged, hot steamy showers feel real good to my nose. A mild sinus headache is all I have, so I got REAL lucky.

Be careful, Just wanted to bring it up incase it helps someone.

From my understanding, it's not so much the heat that creates the phosgene, but an interaction between the argon and chlorine and the uv light from the weld arc. After 25 years behind the lens, if I even see a bottle of chlorinated break clean in the shop, I'm outta there.

It's a smell that you'll never forget and don't want to experience again.


Glad you're OK!

 

[mi223]

Interesting statement. Are you sure you're a member here? Or is this one of them fancy new 'computer fake-intelligence' generated thingy's?

Read through all 8 posts of his. Something is off buddy

 

[Blue Sky Country]

When I was a kid, had a chemistry set and one of the 'experiments' was actually to make Chlorine Gas.

Also rode in pickup truck beds, drank from streams, jumped down stairs wearing a towel pretending to be Superman, Played Lawn Darts, had a Red Ryder. Like most of my generation

And yet here we are! We may be boomers, but we are survivors!

Sirhr

Knew guys whose submissions to metal shop class final exams were beautiful and functional matchlock arquebuses. And flintlocks as well. AND even wheel locks. Now THAT is try-harding with absolute style.

The mechanism in these "primitive" guns make open bolt recoil operated stamped steel SMGs seem like caveman crafts. You can easily crank out hundreds of open bolt pistol caliber full autos under wartime conditions in a shed with a couple of assistants working basic shop tools on a generator. Now try making a 19th century percussion revolver in there. The latter would be much, much more demanding, if not impossible.

ETA: Kudos to OP for reacting in time and promptly knowing what happened. Safety = Utmost importance.

 

[Jumper]

From my understanding, it's not so much the heat that creates the phosgene, but an interaction between the argon and chlorine and the uv light from the weld arc. After 25 years behind the lens, if I even see a bottle of chlorinated break clean in the shop, I'm outta there.

It's a smell that you'll never forget and don't want to experience again.


Glad you're OK!

Yep. Oxidize it in a normal atmosphere and no harm, no foul. But heat it without oxygen in an inert atmosphere (TIG or MIG) and breathe it in, it will ruin your day. If it happens watch for your urine to go clear like water. That's usually a sign that your kidneys are shutting down. I'm not sure what the next stage is....

 

[AngryKoala]

If it weren't so dense I can imagine we would see more chemical attacks using phosgene.

 

[fpgt72]

Yep. Oxidize it in a normal atmosphere and no harm, no foul. But heat it without oxygen in an inert atmosphere (TIG or MIG) and breathe it in, it will ruin your day. If it happens watch for your urine to go clear like water. That's usually a sign that your kidneys are shutting down. I'm not sure what the next stage is....

I read about that kidney part and that really worried me. I am always drinking, you don't see me much without a water bottle in my hand. So it is usually pretty clear. There is still a tinge of color there like always, don't think I could go this long with kidneys bailing on me.

It really is amazing when I stop back and think about it. Just how fragile your meat suit is. Then I have seen people half torn apart and still come out of it.....ok I guess I will say.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

That explains some of your recent posts.

Which begs the question, what have you been huffing for the last decade?

 

[fpgt72]

Which begs the question, what have you been huffing for the last decade?

It goes WAY farther back then just one decade. Like someone said I grew up in the America before the lawyers ruined it for us. After I was born I was put in a crib with lead based paint, went to bed in my asbestos PJ's, rode around in the package shelf in the back of the car and never wore seatbelts till the .gov made me, drank from a garden hose, rode 40 miles to Worlds of Fun in the back of a pickup truck going 75 down the highway, and took my bike off of a great many "really coool" jumps, some even held together all while wearing shorts and a t-shirt and Kids shoes that the laces got tangled in the chain.

I am sure if you asked some people, like those in charge I am a big part of the problem.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

It goes WAY farther back then just one decade. Like someone said I grew up in the America before the lawyers ruined it for us. After I was born I was put in a crib with lead based paint, went to bed in my asbestos PJ's, rode around in the package shelf in the back of the car and never wore seatbelts till the .gov made me, drank from a garden hose, rode 40 miles to Worlds of Fun in the back of a pickup truck going 75 down the highway, and took my bike off of a great many "really coool" jumps, some even held together all while wearing shorts and a t-shirt and Kids shoes that the laces got tangled in the chain.

I am sure if you asked some people, like those in charge I am a big part of the problem.

 

[Maggot]

It goes WAY farther back then just one decade. Like someone said I grew up in the America before the lawyers ruined it for us. After I was born I was put in a crib with lead based paint, went to bed in my asbestos PJ's, rode around in the package shelf in the back of the car and never wore seatbelts till the .gov made me, drank from a garden hose, rode 40 miles to Worlds of Fun in the back of a pickup truck going 75 down the highway, and took my bike off of a great many "really coool" jumps, some even held together all while wearing shorts and a t-shirt and Kids shoes that the laces got tangled in the chain.

I am sure if you asked some people, like those in charge I am a big part of the problem.

Mrs. Sunshine graces us with her presence.

 

[gigamortis]

I started in auto repair back when R-12 was still the most common vehicle AC refrigerant. The leak detectors of choice back then was a propane torch attachment. If refrigerant from a leak was sucked up the sample hose, the flame would turn color. I was always told that the fumes from the off color flame was phosgene gas. I was told back then that phosgene smells like fresh cut grass.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

It goes WAY farther back then just one decade. Like someone said I grew up in the America before the lawyers ruined it for us. After I was born I was put in a crib with lead based paint, went to bed in my asbestos PJ's, rode around in the package shelf in the back of the car and never wore seatbelts till the .gov made me, drank from a garden hose, rode 40 miles to Worlds of Fun in the back of a pickup truck going 75 down the highway, and took my bike off of a great many "really coool" jumps, some even held together all while wearing shorts and a t-shirt and Kids shoes that the laces got tangled in the chain.

I am sure if you asked some people, like those in charge I am a big part of the problem.

Mrs. Sunshine graces us with her presence.

Nah.
I think you are just a pothead.

 

[fpgt72]

Nah.
I think you are just a pothead.

Never partook, not even in college. Now if you would have said alcoholic that would have hit the mark for some time in my past. But never the wacky tobaccky.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Never partook, not even in college. Now if you would have said alcoholic that would have hit the mark for some time in my past. But never the wacky tobaccky.

I'm
Not.
Talking
About
You.

 

[Maggot]

I'm
Not.
Talking
About
You.

Isnt that cute?

Chkin tried to make a funny.

 

[fpgt72]

I went to "try" to weld some more on that same frame last night, let me tell you it looks like something off the internet, and not in a good way. Now I am not a welder, but it will hold and look halfway good. Basically a farmer welder....but this is just horrid. I struck the arc and pulled back right away. In the square tube I had to drill a 1" hole for some 1" bar stock to go through for a tie down mount, so more cutting fluid....oil. This time I put it in the parts washer, then hit it with just water....real well. I bet I had to start over a dozen times, and it looks it. It will hold but I am not proud of it at all.

I hope my fear of this will calm down as I do more and more. I admit I was really "gun shy" of welding this time. Hope it goes away, it was always fun.

 

[Jigstick]

I’ve got hit with chlorine gas when helping my in-laws with their pool filter. Passed right the fuck out. Lungs and eyes on fire.

 

[turbo_bird]

I've done the same but not gassed myself quite as bad with the brake clean. It's not good stuff to play with.

Sort of related, a place I worked at long ago we were using I think muriatic acid and industrial strength hydrogen peroxide to etch cast metal parts to check the grain structure of the directional solidification stuff we were working on. We'd set the parts in a glass cassarole dish outside then dump the chemicals in and get out of there while it worked for 10 min or so. To stop the reaction, we'd run into the cloud of billowing green gas with a 5 gallon bucket of water to pour into the pan. After I got a pretty good lungful one day, I was told there was a gas mask in the shop I could use.
Kristian

 

[nikerret]

Yep always buy the non chlorinated so this doesn’t happen.

Glad you are alright.

Same. I only buy non-chlorinated.