Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Jacked-up? Now you can come at the targets like a spider-monkey.

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Later</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nevermind. </div></div>Best post on this thread so far.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jacked-up? Now you can come at the targets like a spider-monkey.

</div></div>


It is on.


I embody all that you fear.


And I just ate a basket of fermented fruit.


I come for you.

 

[peanutlover]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

None of you 'manned-up' and said anything to Bruce about his supposedly f'd-up competition to his face.

Sure, I heard grumblings from some of you guys, but I didn't see or hear anyone go and tell the man to his face that he'd done anything that wasn't to your satisfaction.

After the shoot, during pictures, you guys were making fun of Bruce and his competition out of his earshot. Reminded me of kids acting-up while the teacher isn't looking.

Thought I'd made a few friends this past Saturday. Hope I wasn't wrong . . .

My shooting partner was a stand-up guy and we'd never met before that day. His name was Mike. I'd shoot with him anytime. I think I met Ryan/RK, Timberwolf, and Novadesign, but I'm not positive. Also a LE named Robert. All good guys who had nice gear and knew how to shoot well. They were friendly to me and gave me shooting advice.

I'm surprised by what I've read here today. You all who are running down on Bruce should have told him to his face and let the chips fall where they might have.

Then, if you wanted to come here to the relative anonymity of your local internet forum to alert others to your perceived slight, so be it.

I am not a sniper. Nor do I play one on TV. I'm not an experienced long-range shooter. I've not done other comps or many classes elsewhere. I've learned a tremendous amount from this site and others. I go my own way as do most guys that I know. I can also shoot up to my rifle sometimes and did so this past Saturday a few times to my satisfaction.

I was planning to start going out to APS and West End. Hopefully I'll still be welcomed there, as some guys on Saturday told me I would be. If not, I'll still be a well-equipped gear queer at my local flat range.

Flame on. I'm not checking back to this thread again.

 

[MercilessMike]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I am so over this. I have resided in the fact that I spent over $100 to find a great new place to shoot, Hung out with friends, met a couple real nice people (both from Bruce's group, and from this group), pulled the trigger a couple times, learned to improve a FPP and had a damn good Chili Size at Mike's Roadhouse Cafe (ohh that was $10 more). I also learned/confirmed that there are people in this community that will screw you, though I am glad to see that there is a little justice here for that.

Is there any of that popcorn left?

 

[rksimple]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Peanut-we told him straight to his face when he told us he DQ'ed us for moving. You were probably still in position and couldn't see it from there.

Despite being wrong about us "manning up" and telling him, you're always welcome in my neighborhood.

 

[Novadesigns]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

WTF ever.

Manned up? Are you serious??? I think the fact that we didn't all pack up and leave the match right then and there like we were considering, and thereby ruining the match for <span style="font-style: italic">everyone</span> was pretty darned manly.

Dude you REALLY need to come to a real match before you judge us on how angry we are. You have no idea... none.

 

[Timberwolf]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Peanut - I not only told him to his face at the match but in several emails before and a couple of emails since that are not general knowledge. Anyway you're welcome at APS anytime, hell grab a 22 and come on down this Sat cause we're doing the same thing just on a smaller scale.

 

[peanutlover]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Since RK courteously pm'd me I will respond to his new post.

I was in the shooting position closest to Bruce and his spotter. I was shooting with a guy named Mike, didn't catch his last name, good guy.

I didn't see Bruce go over to you guys who moved your positions. Nor did I see/hear any displeasure voiced to Bruce. If you did that and I'm wrong, then I take back my comment about not 'manning up.'

I think this thread is petty and whiny. But it's a free country and I like this site alot. I've learned alot reading here and applying what I've learned.

I had a good time Saturday shooting under tough conditions, some of which were self-imposed and others were imposed by the comp director (Bruce.) If I'd done a better job shooting and not rushing things I would've scored much better.

It didn't bother me that it took awhile to move the targets. It didn't bother me having to wait for others to shoot before I could take my turn. It did bother me that I couldn't shoot in any position I wanted or use whatever rest I wanted. Too bad for me. I improvised and tried to overcome.

I didn't feel cheated out of $100. I couldn't tell you if that's alot to pay for a comp. I don't care. I enjoyed it.

We're not snipers out there. We're playing a game by competing in a comp.

I've probably met only one real sniper. If I get to see him again next year I'll ask him for his thoughts on Bruce's comp this past Saturday and if he's got any suggestions for Bruce. On second thought, I'll let Bruce ask him since he sometimes teaches with Bruce and that's how I met him. His name is Bill Skiles. Why don't one of you ace detectives drop him a line to see if he's the real deal and if he vouches for Bruce?

Never heard of Skiles? How about this link:

http://www.usmcscoutsniper.org/news_articles/bronzestar_skiles.htm

or this link:

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Heroes.db&command=viewone&id=71

or this one will give you everything you need about Skiles:

http://www.google.com/search?q=mari...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Anyway, I'm out.

 

[Novadesigns]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

You were shooting with two actual snipers on Saturday, peanut. One was right next to you with Ryan and Bill.

 

[peanutlover]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Robert is the LE sniper, right?

And, if I'm not mistaken, did you just return from a stay in the sandbox? If that's correct, thank you for your service. I tried to get your attention to tell you that Saturday but you guys were busy crossing your arms in X's.

Anyway, I'm very sleepy and I've got to do some laundry before packing in. Goodnight.

 

[Novadesigns]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Yep Bob, he was military in the past as well, I believe.

But not me, my friend, I'm too old, hehehe. I'm just a shooting enthusiast and an avid student of the craft.

The other sniper serviceman was the guy way down on the other end, in the shooting jacket. I believe he's of Italian decent? Not certain. I think he might've been the first place individual shooter as well.

 

[Timberwolf]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Well the hits just keep on coming. Y'all might find this interesting as I just rec'd this via an email from Bruce (addressing a yahoo group that I'm a member of) regarding this fiasco:

"[Tactical-Rifle] You Guys Might Find These Documents Interesting&#8207;
From: [email protected] on behalf of Bruce Krell ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 10/21/08 1:35 AM
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Security scan upon download
Precision...pdf (62.7 KB), Stalking ...pdf (43.2 KB)

I thought you guys might find these interesting.
Print them out and look at the dates on them.

The Stalking Rules one was completed in 2000.
I did about 20 stalks and the hell week over about an
18 month period. I wrote these stalking rules to summarize
all that I had learned.

At the time, there was no manual on stalking. They had a power point
presentation which was very high level. At the time,
all of these rules were passed around verbally from instructor to student.
Some of these I figured out on my own based on things that
I did or happenned to me at the time. So I used
all of my stalks and the hell week experience, which included
a lot of stalks and team stalks, among other things, to list
all of the rules. I passed these around to the other instructors.

Those of you who've been through the training should recognize
the validity of these rules.

Maybe they have an actual manual now that lists all of this.
I still have the Scout Sniper Instructor Manuals which were given
to me to study carefully. This 8 volume series from the Sniper Instructor
School at Quantico did not even have a section on stalking.
Maybe they have a newer version that has these.

I spent a bunch of time working with a STA platoon at 29 Palms.
At the time, they did a regular qualifier for the Sniper School. For several
of the qualifiers, I did my ballistics lecture,
which took a full day, the same lecture I did at the full school. Then,
we used the handout to train the sniper candidates on stalking methods.
I would walk through each rule, then we'd use myself and other local instructors
to demonstrate how to apply the rules.

I spent time at both the Sniper School and the STA platoon acting as
an OP on the back of a truck, trying to bust the stalking students. I was OK,
but (now) Sgt. Major Bill Skiles was unbeatable -- he had eagle eyes.

At one time, I hosted a class in Tactical Methods. Bill was the primary OP.
I stalked from 250 yards out to within 10 yards of him in RED BDUs, no ghillie.
This is no BS guys. Bill took the red BDUs back to the school. He wanted
to get the instructors to stalk using red BDUs.

The Precision Shooting Checklist is what I use in my classes today.
This is the technique that I learned at that time I did the Marksmanship
training. I kept careful notes and the exercises that I recorded are used
in my Field Methods class.

Note the date on this checklist -- 2001. I did this checklist in order to
prepare a handout for a private class. I was hired to teach a class to the
CEO, the USA President, and the Marketing Mgr of Accuracy International.
Day 1 was on the range, Day 2 was up in the mountains. Then, we came
back and on Day 3 spent the day as my guest at the Sniper School, letting
all of the students in that class shoot the AI/AW.

I have a 200 page very formal ballistics class -- both practical and theory --
that I spent 8 hours delivering every class for about 2 years.

I also have a 100 page Land Navigation book/class handout that takes you through
a series of lectures and activities and ends up with a series of longer and longer
navigation exercises. This uses the UTM coordinate system, which is pretty much
the same as the MGRS system used by the Marines.

Finally, I have a full class syllabus that I have generated for tactical mantracking.
This uses a lot of materiels generated by David Scott Donelon. These were done
after I left the Sniper School, because they didn't teach this stuff.

Look, you can believe what you want. But, this is the real stuff.

This is all my original materials generated by taking training and by
trying to help the other instructors become better at what they did.

Bruce"

 

[scb6]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Timberwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Hey, at least this time we shot FROM the ATV and not AT the moving ATV.

 

[SoundFx]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Novadesigns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The other sniper serviceman was the guy way down on the other end, in the shooting jacket. I believe he's of Italian decent? Not certain. I think he might've been the first place individual shooter as well. </div></div>

That's correct. He's a great guy. I met him before when Bruce hosted Jeff Gonzales's pistol course. He did take first place, and he seemed to have a good time too.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I am calling absolute bullshit on this shit bag and he is not only a poser he is a liar!!!

I went thru School in 1993 guess what there was a outline for sniping, a outline for land nav and a outline on man tracking!!

Hell the Marine Corps also has a MCI course for land nave and it teaches everything you can ever want to know about land Nava nd that isnt even 100 pages.

So if this clown thinks he has anything to do with his 2001 outlines he is the biggest FAKE we have seen to date!!

As for Skiles he is good to go, how he is tied into this Bruce clown is yet 2 be seen.

Maybe we should all patrol in red bdu's as well!!!




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Timberwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well the hits just keep on coming. Y'all might find this interesting as I just rec'd this via an email from Bruce (addressing a yahoo group that I'm a member of) regarding this fiasco:

"[Tactical-Rifle] You Guys Might Find These Documents Interesting&#8207;
From: [email protected] on behalf of Bruce Krell ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 10/21/08 1:35 AM
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Security scan upon download
Precision...pdf (62.7 KB), Stalking ...pdf (43.2 KB)

I thought you guys might find these interesting.
Print them out and look at the dates on them.

The Stalking Rules one was completed in 2000.
I did about 20 stalks and the hell week over about an
18 month period. I wrote these stalking rules to summarize
all that I had learned.

At the time, there was no manual on stalking. They had a power point
presentation which was very high level. At the time,
all of these rules were passed around verbally from instructor to student.
Some of these I figured out on my own based on things that
I did or happenned to me at the time. So I used
all of my stalks and the hell week experience, which included
a lot of stalks and team stalks, among other things, to list
all of the rules. I passed these around to the other instructors.

Those of you who've been through the training should recognize
the validity of these rules.

Maybe they have an actual manual now that lists all of this.
I still have the Scout Sniper Instructor Manuals which were given
to me to study carefully. This 8 volume series from the Sniper Instructor
School at Quantico did not even have a section on stalking.
Maybe they have a newer version that has these.

I spent a bunch of time working with a STA platoon at 29 Palms.
At the time, they did a regular qualifier for the Sniper School. For several
of the qualifiers, I did my ballistics lecture,
which took a full day, the same lecture I did at the full school. Then,
we used the handout to train the sniper candidates on stalking methods.
I would walk through each rule, then we'd use myself and other local instructors
to demonstrate how to apply the rules.

I spent time at both the Sniper School and the STA platoon acting as
an OP on the back of a truck, trying to bust the stalking students. I was OK,
but (now) Sgt. Major Bill Skiles was unbeatable -- he had eagle eyes.

At one time, I hosted a class in Tactical Methods. Bill was the primary OP.
I stalked from 250 yards out to within 10 yards of him in RED BDUs, no ghillie.
This is no BS guys. Bill took the red BDUs back to the school. He wanted
to get the instructors to stalk using red BDUs.

The Precision Shooting Checklist is what I use in my classes today.
This is the technique that I learned at that time I did the Marksmanship
training. I kept careful notes and the exercises that I recorded are used
in my Field Methods class.

Note the date on this checklist -- 2001. I did this checklist in order to
prepare a handout for a private class. I was hired to teach a class to the
CEO, the USA President, and the Marketing Mgr of Accuracy International.
Day 1 was on the range, Day 2 was up in the mountains. Then, we came
back and on Day 3 spent the day as my guest at the Sniper School, letting
all of the students in that class shoot the AI/AW.

I have a 200 page very formal ballistics class -- both practical and theory --
that I spent 8 hours delivering every class for about 2 years.

I also have a 100 page Land Navigation book/class handout that takes you through
a series of lectures and activities and ends up with a series of longer and longer
navigation exercises. This uses the UTM coordinate system, which is pretty much
the same as the MGRS system used by the Marines.

Finally, I have a full class syllabus that I have generated for tactical mantracking.
This uses a lot of materiels generated by David Scott Donelon. These were done
after I left the Sniper School, because they didn't teach this stuff.

Look, you can believe what you want. But, this is the real stuff.

This is all my original materials generated by taking training and by
trying to help the other instructors become better at what they did.

Bruce" </div></div>

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Whats even more funny, for a guy that has a 100 and 200 page manofesto's he is pretty short winded in his web site descriptions!!

 

[Tactical]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I am done with this thread except Bruce sent me this via email last night. I am not about to check it out or comment further

"Short Biography Of Bruce Krell



Am I the real deal or am I just an academic theoretician?
Have the patience to read the biography below and decide for yourself.


I started by obtaining an MBA and a PHd in Applied Math and Computer Science.

I have prior military service.
I spent 4 years on active duty with the US Air Force.
When I left the Air Force, I had the rank of Captain.
Given the importance some people seem to place on titles,
I should probably refer to myself as Captain, but I don't do this.

During the first 2 years in the Air Force, I had a great job. I was an
asshole for various Generals. I would review and critique work by junior
officers when the General didn't want to be critical of subordinates in
public. For the last two years, I was on assignment to The Rand Corporation.
I worked on management of spare parts around Europe, helped design scenarios
for a gaming facility to teach generals how to fight a war, and make
predictions using computer models to determine the amount of time
until defense communications satellite coverage was lost after
a shuttle explosion.

All of the work I did was coordinated with members of the Air Staff
at the Pentagon and was used to influence policies that directly
effected budgets, the abilities of general officers, and the front line
pilots and support staff on the ground.


After I left the Air Force, I worked for 15 years for a defense contractor.
Add that up: 4 + 15 = 19 years. This is typically the amount of time that
an active duty military person spends before retiring. So, this is a whole career
devoted to the military and hard core weapons systems.

During the first 7 years, I worked on building ground
systems for processing all sorts of satellite data. The data that we processed
went straight to the highest levels -- the President and the Secretary of Defense.
In order to do this work, I had a Top Secret Security Clearance as well as clearances
with all sorts of 3 letter agencies at the highest levels.

Then, I worked on tactical systems -- I was one of the lead engineers on the development
of "big arms", as opposed to the small arms we use in firearms training. Among the
systems I worked on included the Tow Missle Control System for Cobra helicopters,
night vision systems for the Apache and Cobra helicopters, a control system for
a smart missile that used GPS and imagery to guide the missile to a very precise
target location, automated target recognitions systems to identify friend and foe
from infrared imagery, and target recognitions systems for the F14 radars.
Frankly, these are all hard core weapons technology that would be a pile of wasted
metal without the design skills and software skills that I applied to development.
Many of our tactical systems, like the Tow Missile Control System, were in the
first Gulf War. One of our engineers went out (not me, unfortunately) and came back
with requested improvements. We made these improvements and published the upgrades
in a short time period.

As far as I know, these tactical systems are still in use today
and have saved lots of American lives. I am proud to have been one of the
the lead engineers of these systems and feel they played an important part in
our ability to win the wars in which we are engaged

Additionally, I have about 30 years of experience developing ballistic computer
codes that are still in use today by various military organizations throughout
the world. One of these is used by Navies of several countries, including ours,
to determine how far away to put other buildings from a building that stores
explosives. The pieces of the walls of the building would move ballistically if
the building explodes. We worked with universities and sometimes military units
to validate these computer codes with real world data


After completing 19 years of working on weapons and information systems for our military,
I chose to start my own software consulting firm. One of the first projects we decided to
implement was a hand-held computer for snipers to setup their shots. This was the reason
that I was able to get involved with the LE and Marine Sniper training. I wanted the system
to use the same process that real snipers use to set up a long distance shot. I ultimately
was able to make this system work. I included stuff like wind cues, libraries of typical target
sizes, and a ballistic algorithm that used your actual dope to predict trajectory. Not theoretical
but practical based on what I learned. I spent lots of hours at the Marine Sniper School and at various
LE Sniper classes validating the accuracy of the predictive algorithm against real world shooting.
I documented the existence of this system in 2001 through a registered trademark.
This was the first system of this type ever available. I know this because
my trademark was used to bust a phone patent on a device that came after mine was on sale.

After thinking about the system, I voluntarily chose to remove the
the system from the marketplace. I felt that training snipers to use this system would cause
them to stop learning the mechanics of the shot, would make them dependent on a device that
could fail -- dead batteries, and would ultimately put their lives at risk. More importantly, they
would be less successful at getting hits because they had not internalized ballistic theory and
used that knowledge to make the hits.

Now, to my involvement with Sniper Training. When I started the hand held computer project,
I realized that my product would not be good unless I had sniper training. I explained what
I wanted to do and was invited by several groups, such as the Chandlers at Iron Brigage Armory,
to participate in a lot of LE only training. I did a bunch of these classes and have the certificates
to prove it. One of the classes was at Camp Pendleton. Gunnery Sgt Bill Skiles (now First Sergeant)
asked me to teach a full day of ballistics to each incoming sniper class for the next two years.
In exchange for volunteering my time, I was allowed to take all of the training. I did the 10 weeks
in weekly pieces spread over a long time. I also did the infamous hell week. Had a blast. If you
take one of my classes, you will hear the stories. Part of my agreement was that I would be able
to state that I was a Part Time Instructor at the school.

After completing all the training, I was awarded two hog's teeth as given to all graduates. For those
of you who don't know this tradition, the hog's tooth is a 308 bullet on a piece of paracord given to
all graduates. One was given to me by Gunny Skiles. The other was given to me by the Scout Sniper
Association and presented to me by Chuck Mawhinney, who has 105 confirmed sniper kills in Vietnam.

During the two years that I spent helping at the Sniper School at Camp Pendleton, I donated about 10 days
of help to every 50 day class -- 10/50 = 20%, 8 classes over 2 years. In addition to my full day of ballistics
lecture, I began helping to instruct in other areas, such as stalking, land navigation, and mantracking. I wrote
a lot of handouts that were used for a while and probably lost in transition between teaching staff. My 3 page
handout on stalking rules was quite well accepted. Don't ask for a copy -- I will only hand out in classes.
Ten days out of 50 days (20%) of donated time certainly constitutes a part time instructor role, and that's
probably why Bill Skiles was comfortable with my using that title. This was all on top of the training
weeks that I put in to get the training. All these days cost me quite a bit in lost income, but I was very happy
to donate the time in exchange for the training, as I felt I was contributing. By the way, Bill Skiles has taught
several classes for me over the years. Hopefully, when he returns from his Virginia assignment, we will teach
more classes for and with me. Don't miss any of these if he does.


So, here are the claims I make in my classes, which I feel are justified.

I was a Part-Time Instructor at the Marine Sniper School at Camp Pendleton.
I took the whole ten week class -- which I can still describe in gory detail,
although admittedly I spread this out over ten different weeks.
I am the only civilian that has taken the training.
I took a bunch of LE Sniper classes, and received college credits for at least one of them.

While I do have an extensive military background -- way more that most dweebs -- I have never
claimed to be an operator or a Marine Sniper.

However, I do know the material cold, more than just the theory or the shooting mechanics part.
I teach 3 courses in this area -- precision shooting, ballistics theory and application, field methods.
I will be adding a 4th course in advanced field methods. In these classe, I teach a very detailed
mix of LE and Marine Sniper techniques that you won't likely get in other schools. And, we do a lot
of work out under real field conditions in the desert. I've developed lots of very cogent, clear, and
precise handouts in these areas as well as the areas of land navigation using the MGRS, stalking, and
mantracking. These are NOT theoretical BS handouts but step by step clear instructions that allow a
student to acquire these skills quickly.

The classes that I teach combine a lot of information that I learned while taking and teaching in
the various sniper communities. Most people who take the classes see this right away.

If you take one of my classes, you will realize within minutes
that I know what I am talking about and that you are getting good information. After you leave the class,
you will have acquired and used much of the skills and information that I impart due to my teaching ability.

Over the past 7 years, I have taught many hundreds of students -- real operators, real LE snipers, and all types
of civilians. If I had not accomplished the things that I claim, and could not deliver real information and skills
based on those experiences, I would not have students, much less repeating students. The actual LE Snipers and
operators who take my classes ask me not to reveal their existance in the class or afterwards. I feel that
I am obligated to respect these requests, since their lives may depend on my silence. In the past, I was hired by
by Accuracy International to teach a private class for the CEO, USA Sales Manager, and the National Marketing Mgr.

Don't take my word for all of this -- ask some of my current and former students.

In addition to these classes, I teach Tactical Handgun, Carbine, and Shotgun. Our classes are very reasonably
priced and cover in 1 day what many famous instructors teach in 3 days and charge 6 times as much. If you really
want to see how you will operate under stress, come take some of these classes. I am a master at applying stress
without pushups and situps. I use techniques in curriculum design that I learned at the Marine Sniper School
under FSgt Bill Skiles



The claims that I make above are exactly what I state in my class and on my web site.
I believe they are fully justified based on my explanations above.
If anyone told you that I claimed to be a Marine Sniper or an operator, they are relaying distorted information.
If anyone told you that all I did was lecturing in the schoolhouse and just did a few stalks,
they are badly uninformed.


Am I the real deal or am I just an academic theoretician?
If you had the patience to read through this, then you can make your own decision.
Better yet, come out and take one of my classes. See if you have what it takes to make it
through one of my 900 round tactical classes in 110 degree heat without breaking a sweat."

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

I will be trying to track down Skiles while he is here in VA on his assignment and we will see what he has to say.

The only way to learn man tracking is to go out do it learn it and master it. What the fuck did you create man tarcking for dummies and now everyone is a expert?

This is a deep hole i hope you can live up to your resume!!

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Tony,

This is an email I got from Bruce when I asked about him going to SS training.

"I am the only civilian in the history of the school to ever take the training.

I did all 10 weeks spread on a weekly basis over about a year or so.
It was lots of fun and I learned a lot.

When you graduate, they give you a hog's tooth: a 308 bullet on a piece of paracord.
I was given two: one by FSgt Bill Skiles, who at the time was NCO In Charge and
one my Chuck Mawhinney. They recently discovered that he had more recorded
kills than Carlos Hathcock.

If you ever take one of my classes, you'll hear some of the stories and
see from the presentation that I did take the training.

Bruce"

 

[woodspider]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

this thread started with a friendly warning/advice on what comp to skip, then it grew and grew as it always does into charactert assassination. The comp looks like it suked , thanks for the review, I would steer clear of course after reading the review. but man threads seem to take a life of their own......Wow someday id like to see a good libel/slander suit come from all the hating on the various web sites. Too much internet policing goin on, who cares if he is fo real or not, dont take the mans classes if you hate him, or really who gives a fuk.
It never amazes me how people feel the need to have others approve of them. What a joke , seems so 5th grade playground to me? In the end its about accurately putting rounds on target right? So all the "I did this and that shit, so I am FO REAL YO YO shit doesnt really matter does it. If the guy next to you is hitting what he is shooting at and you arent all the IM FO REAL shit and your not doesnt mean much at that moment does it?.
WHEW!!! Man too much hating on this site, and too many people who think they have the corner market on crowning who is FO REAL My observations are that ...Technology, Money, the internet and the speed of the transfer of knowledge has shortened the relative time and commitment it takes to get good at many sports/activities/jobs, including shooting/sniping. Big resumes arent what they used to be. Respect is earned through a mans actions not his words. Like Franks signature line ends Character becomes your what???...
If you dont believe Big Resumes arent what they used to be why is this Country about to elect a President who's resume is super thin handing him the ultimate authority over every Airmen,Sailor,Soldier and Marine, including every Sniper in Service/ ask yourself that? For the record I already voted for JM/SP early voting here in my State

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodspider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Technology, Money, the internet and the speed of the transfer of knowledge has shortened the relative time and commitment it takes to get good at many sports/activities/jobs, including shooting/sniping. Big resumes arent what they used to be.</div></div>I don't agree with everything you say, but I find the above quote to be insightful.

Of course one can't learn to be a Sniper on the internet, but it IS true that access to information is no longer determined by one's function in society. Likewise, one's experience and talent are no longer as limited to job function as they used to be. I have learned much about sniping while rock-climbing, shooting and hunting. I have learned a lot about life while racing motorcycles [for example: when you get knocked down, shake off the doubt, get back up, and finish the race].

Point is, the internet is fostering an intellectual renaissance by encouraging a new type of active citizenship: people NOT tied to technocratic interests, who use their power of reflection and judgment to develop the craft that they practice.

Think of what we do here as Sniping-craft freed from the technocratic decision-making of the military. Enthusiasm and knowledge are the fuel for this process. Who you 'are' according to a formal institution, or what you have 'done' in the past, means a lot less than it ever did.

I'm not defending Bruce; I don't know him. He still may or may not be a dweeb. But I do wonder why, if he has so much education and so many advanced credentials, he chooses to make his money $100 a throw in the Cali desert.

 

[Novadesigns]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

If it were just about him making grandiose claims about who he is and what he has done I would just shake my head, laugh at him, and move on... but when a person uses a those claims to lure people in and rip them off, THAT is when I take offense. We all should take offense.

In the end I really don't care if people want to waste their money on his classes and comps... so long as they go in with eyes open.

 

[woodspider]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment


In the end I really don't care if people want to waste their money on his classes and comps... so long as they go in with eyes open. [/quote]

Well said!

 

[guns_and_labs]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I am the only civilian in the history of the school to ever take the training."</div></div>

I was once told by someone who I believe did graduate the SS school as a Marine, that he had a civilian from one of our "agencies" attending the class with his cohort. Can anyone here who has done the course comment? Does the SS school have "guest students"?

 

[Arch]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

They are all guests...

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guns and Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I am the only civilian in the history of the school to ever take the training."</div></div>

I was once told by someone who I believe did graduate the SS school as a Marine, that he had a civilian from one of our "agencies" attending the class with his cohort. Can anyone here who has done the course comment? Does the SS school have "guest students"? </div></div>

I have never seen or heard of it PERIOD!!! It was hard as hell and far and few between to let in a seal or someone from the Army.

So the only one who can really shed light on this will be Skiles who i am seeking out as we speak!

 

[secret squirrel]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Guns and Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I am the only civilian in the history of the school to ever take the training."</div></div>

I was once told by someone who I believe did graduate the SS school as a Marine, that he had a civilian from one of our "agencies" attending the class with his cohort. Can anyone here who has done the course comment? Does the SS school have "guest students"? </div></div>

The only "Guest Students" I have seen are SEALs LOL (and some guys from Ranger Bn and SF). I have seen "Agency" students at SOTG courses though

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

OSS,

Maybe he is like the end all to Secret Squirrel....even you dont know about him...

 

[Arch]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kmussack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Grahm wrote:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">Think of what we do here as Sniping-craft freed from the technocratic decision-making of the military. Enthusiasm and knowledge are the fuel for this process. Who you 'are' according to a formal institution, or what you have 'done' in the past, means a lot less than it ever did.</span></span></div></div>

Worth reading again... </div></div>

The technocratic decision-making in the military is often sadly without the decision maker, or, at best he is someone that only generally knows how something works. Look, I read this and know this means you are saying you have no military background in sniping, but have the money to read, buy and shoot what you want, and therefore can back up what you say except for the part about where the term comes from or what it means. You should not be so bitter. You could have done what they do. You just didn't... The formal training does mean so much less than it ever did. I mean, there is no way I would hire some graduate just out of the mathematics department at MIT to support my efforts when there is a rich kid that has some paper from the University of Phoenix online... Screw the good colleges with entrance requirements, formal institutions, rites of passage and standards. I say give 10 points to any applicant that supports online gun forums, and certainly there needs to be a SI Bill to match the GI Bill, for Shooter Instructors that know what they are talking about but never took the time to say, send me... If you have ever served in the military and now shoot in weekend competitions, you are a SNIPER. If you were a supply NCO in the National Guard, or a tech writing Captain in the Air Force, you have every right to stand and be counted as a SNIPER. If you have a support our troops medallion on your car, you might as well tell people that you served active duty for 30 years. Verdun, Normandy, Inchon, Hue City, Ramadi, it don't mean crap, because what you have "done in the past" means so much less than it ever did...

George Washington defeats Cornwallis and becomes 1st President. Loser. It means nothing these days.

Grant, Sheridan and Sherman, a leather worker, railroad VP and crazy teacher, respectively, rise from nobodies to General and defeat the Confederacy to win the Civil War. Respectable? Hell no, they never even log on here.

West Point Grad George Patton pushes III Army across Europe. Who really cares? He never shot a match.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Timberwolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Stalking Rules one was completed in 2000.
I did about 20 stalks and the hell week over about an
18 month period. I wrote these stalking rules to summarize
all that I had learned.

At the time, there was no manual on stalking. They had a power point
presentation which was very high level. At the time,
all of these rules were passed around verbally from instructor to student.
</div></div>

1. When I attended the Basic Course in 98 our instructors mentioned that they at one time hosted Law Enforcement packages at Stone Bay. They had to cease the practice due to Posse Comitatus. They were not allowed to train civilians or even FBI. I had no reason to doubt this or even bother verifying it. I just cared about graduating.

2. I still have all of my OUTLINES from the Basic Course and even my well worn copy of FMFM 1-3B is dated 1984.

The bullshit this guy is spewing is reaching epic proportions. I really am interested to see what NOMAD digs up on this.

ETA: Arch, I love reading your posts.

I still have to wonder what someone must think of themselves that they have to make shit up to feel worthwhile or make others think they are worthwhile.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Just for clarification in the late 1990s and up to 2001 they had a program where they allowed "Train alongside Law Enforcement Officers" You could train alongside with class but you could not get a certificate or any formal recognition of training. You did what they did and where given scores.

This is how I was able to attend some of the training (No I did not attend whole course). I was a guest there.

I have done smae thing with Army NG.

I did not know they ever allowed non LE to do this but who knows.

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> George Washington defeats Cornwallis and becomes 1st President. Loser. It means nothing these days... To hell with how things have been done in the past and giving respect to standards and all those military rules. </div></div> Easy Arch: you're bright; bright enough to know that taking any argument to an extreme will distort both it and its context. Nobody said THAT.

The question of who is/is not a 'real' Sniper has no concrete answer absent a commonly accepted definition.

Does the soldier who passed the sniper course only because of the skill of his spotter have the same right to call himself a 'Sniper' because someone 'carried' him through the course?

What about the student with me on my last course, a working Sniper, who didn't know what an 'MOA' was?

 

[Arcangel8654]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

nevermind...

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Wow! Tough room.

 

[Arcangel8654]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arcangel8654</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well golly.. maybe one day I can earn your aprroval and appraise too sir. </div></div>Why so angry so quickly? When I asked: "Does the soldier who passed the sniper course only because of the skill of his spotter have the same right to call himself a 'Sniper' because someone 'carried' him through the course?" I didn't have you in mind. No offense intended.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

The LE class's that were ran at Stone Bay ever so often went away around 1994 and never came back. They stopped when they fired all the instructors and cleared the school house out

So it was long ago and very rare. I was gonna suggest it may have been a weekend LE thing but his tiem frame didnt seem to fit this.

So no as i said we will have to see if Skiles allowed this guy to play at his school house when he was NCOIC there. If he did his training was in the last 8-10 year frame.

 

[Arcangel8654]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

 

[Arch]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Henry Aaron fights through racism and with losing teams continues to knock the ball out of the park. Passes the Bambino on the all time HR list. Big deal? No way. Who cares what he did in the past? How many HR’s did he get this year? Nada. He rolled a big egg. Didn’t even start a game... How can you respect that?

All this talk about our Forefathers writing a Constitution. Come on guys, it’s ‘in the past…’ these ‘formal institutions’ have less and less meaning… ignore them. Start your own hit parade. You might just getcha picture on the cover of the Rolling Stone…

Michael Jordan. Yeah, he dunked a few baskets. So what? Didn’t see him in the championships this year, did you? He ought to be on the new hit TV show about the life of dwarves…

Gretzky-Smetzky. Hockey Hall of Fame….I fart in its general direction. Who he ‘are’ according to that formal institution, or what he did in the past, means less than it ever did. We ought to buy him a big, red hat to wear that has on the front a GIANT L…for LOSER.

What we do ‘here’ on the internet is to be alive and free, unconstrained from soaring to new heights of anything we want to conceive…

I am a lilliputian…

I once dined with William Wallace…

I was the RTO for Dan Daly at Belleau Wood…

I am a songbird…

I grow fresh clover and press them for use as bookmarks…

I fart and all over the world the needy clap with glee…

The eagle, globe and anchor? Just a trademark for a formal institution. No one really cares what it did in the past, and it is starting to mean a lot less than it ever did. Buy your own….it’s just a couple of clicks away….

 

[pascal]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Arch,

You're stretching it a little. He is talking about Sniper-Craft (which can vary from countries to countries and various branchs of service) - not world history

There also been a lot of advance in the markmanship area due to the Internet and heck, sites like this one, 6mmbr, etc...

In most part due to the free exchange of ideas and being able to learn from the creativity/research of some individuals. Sites like 6mmbr have been a wealth of knowledge. Heck, if we take a look at the gears used a few years ago and what is used now in matches - there has been a noticable evolution. Advances in that field will probably affect/benefit the military as well in the long run.

Techniques have also evolved and many people have been aware of schools such as Rifles Only, etc...through the Internet and feedback from people who attended. The way matches have been setup has definitely beneficied from the exchange of ideas of match directors/competitors.

I would think that, without the free exchange of ideas and the capability to dip into the knowledge that has been amassed on the net (and apply it not just read it), you would be behind to some degree.

Bruce may be an example - I actually don't know the man or his experience but had he done research on what people expect in competitions (and not what "he think" people expect)and what is currently being done in that area (for the price he was asking for), the outcome could have been different or he could have written his original announcement in a way that competitors would have known what this was all about before paying for it. If you were to survey people on what they think is an "Xtreme Sniper Competitions", I think the answers would have been different than what was provided at that competition.

 

[secret squirrel]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OSS,

Maybe he is like the end all to Secret Squirrel....even you dont know about him... </div></div>

Shit... I don't even know who the hell I am! LOL

 

[Arcangel8654]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

 

[Arch]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Actually, I think you ought to change your name to angryangel, because I prefer to make friends these days...

Thanks for the compliment, BTW, but I do not even come close... I do not have the strength to lift the bootbands of Skiles and quite a few others I consider brothers. This topic/person was discussed at length last night and this morning with a few key people, and these things came to light:

Over the years, civilians have visited and assisted at the schools. Guest instructors are often brought in because of either the ability of someone with specific skills, or because of the Twain maxim you should be familiar with, "An expert's just a man from out of town." Very careful records have been kept and maintained. For several years, at various locations, LE courses were conducted although abbreviated to 1 or 2 weeks. Virginia put on a Fed. LE course every summer for 4-5 years. This came to an end due to several reasons that I will not go into here. Key relationships remain between schoolhouses and their local LE professionals. Relationships exist between instructors and friends, and sometimes these friendships are exaggerated by one or another party.

There are also marksmanship teams. In some cases, snipers have been on these teams, but they are separate entities. The marksmanship teams train to compete in matches. The snipers train to be good infantrymen and to deploy to support their nation at war. In a competition on local ranges, my hard-earned cash would be put on the marksmanship teams. From underneath the trash heap in a dusty city on the otherside of this hateful world, the infantryman gets my pick. In most cases these days, same planet, different worlds.

Bruce has been called a wealthy, very intelligent, nice guy from somewhere in Cali, around Beverly Hills. He began stopping by the schoolhouse to show a PDA that had ballistic software on it that he wrote. Because of his PhD in physics, he could dumb down or explain ballistics in an expert manner to new guys, and some friendships were established. That he visited their house, listened into the banter and some classes, and visited the ranges is not disputed. 'Graduated' insults the people and the process.

Once, returning from a planning cell in Rome, my flight was delayed 20 minutes for a VIP that was not ready to board yet. I craned my neck to see who it was before he flopped into a 1st class seat. He was easy to make out because he was grossly fat and pompous and goes by the name "Teddy." Does this make me a member of the Kennedy clan?

 

[pascal]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

There are always exceptions to the rules

The guy must have been an incredible shooter.

If I recall, you have some limitations on what can be shot at Camp Perry as well.

Seriously though, records are been shattered every year through improvement in technology and ballistics. I.E 50 Cal records, etc...

It's just factual.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

Thanks for squaring that Arch. I kinda figured you might have some numbers in your little black book that could verify or dispute any claims in the realm of Marine Sniping.

And thanks for the Twain quote. He had some amazing insight into human nature. I love hearing some of his gems. Going to have to hunt down some more of his works. I haven't read any in awhile.

 

[Arch]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

DF. Stretched it? Yep. But I did once dine with Wiliam Wallace. Actually, it was at his feet, in Aberdeen. And I did not read in too much on what was meant. Words should mean something.

…certainly the internet breeds ideas and their exchange. I learn from this and many sources. This website was a fantastic idea...you'll notice the stock on the rifle I shoot most often looks very similar to the one Frank spoke so highly of, what, 10 years ago? I have made some great friends here. Heck, the military might add suppressors to their long guns now that Bobby Ricky and Joe Bob Henry have been hunting with their own for 10 years.

Institution denotes bureaucracy, and this is true. The bad side is that it does not move fast. The good side is that it is not moved easily. I am resistant to change as part of my nature...I would not have allowed women at West Point, the asshole is not a vagina, and helmets should never have been permitted in football, but change is inevitable in this world. It is a constant.

Enthusiasm and knowledge are the fuels for many processes, I certainly agree.

But who you are, and what you have done, are certainly intertwined with the institutions you support and belong or have belonged to, and to me these things indicate a lot about your character. Unless, you are lying...which can say even more.

----
LW(USMC) - Twain is one of my favorites for having pressed an old man dying of throat cancer that I admire into writing a book that was one the best of the 19th Century. THIS is a good place to start.

 

[pascal]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch Stanton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But who you are, and what you have done, are certainly intertwined with the institutions you support and belong or have belonged to, and to me these things indicate a lot about your character. Unless, you are lying...which can say even more.
</div></div>

Yeah, I understand that.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">An expert's just a man from out of town.</div></div>

And Will Rogers said an expert is "A man fifty miles from home with a briefcase."

And the repute of the expert and his fee both vary in direct proportion to the distance to his normal place of practice.

Experts from across an ocean are much more expensive.

And the inverse of that is that no man is an expert in his home town.

This is a real effect. It once became quite obvious that the reason a L.E. agency close to a well-known training center I am familiar with chose to train elsewhere was that there was no trip involved for the trainees.

 

[Graham]

Re: Xtreme Sniper Match...Xtreme Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arch Stanton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Enthusiasm and knowledge are the fuels for many processes, I certainly agree. But who you are, and what you have done, are certainly intertwined with the institutions you support and belong or have belonged to, and to me these things indicate a lot about your character. Unless, you are lying...which can say even more.</div></div>Well said & agreed. My point relevant to becoming a Sniper was that training and equipment are now widely available. Therefore these can be (and often are) outsourced. However, brand (Army/Marines/LE); team; and strategic intent remain proprietary.