Gunsmithing Yes!! Yet another Bore Scope Pic Thread…oh joy! Haha

[Baron23]

Yes, sad as it may be, this is yet another bore scope thread.

Before anybody jumps on me, let me please make a few opening statements:

• Inevitably, someone will want to tell me to throw it away..please, do not…it ain’t happening. Haha I got this Teslong mainly to look for carbon ring build up (and educate myself on what that looks like) and mostly (really, almost exclusively) I use it to evaluate cleaning.
• I’m not hyperventilating or panicking… “Oh my god, is my barrel ruined!!”. Not the point of this thread at all and absolutely not where I’m at.
• MV has not declined and precision is still better than me…I cannot discern any performance issues at this time
• Barrel is Proof SS 6.5 man bun at 25” with 2k rounds of mostly factory and some hand loads

So, what is the point of this thread, you may ask (or more likely don’t care! Haha).

Well, I’m trying to further educate myself and see if there is something to learn here.

Specifically, can anything wrt to remaining barrel life be determined from bore scope pics such as these. That is my only purpose.

Yeah, I get it….MV reductions or groups opening is the no shit “tell” for barrel burn-out. But can anything at all be projected from looking at these pics?

These pics start at the beginning of free bore and extends about 2 ½” down the barrel from there. Past that point, most all of the fire cracking and…what looks to me like…a bit of roughness of the edges of the lands is gone.

Can these pics tell an educated shooter or gunsmith anything at all wrt to remaining barrel life….or not, if that’s the correct answer?

So, here they are….

 

[longshot2000]

Are you sure this is not Joe Biden’s colonoscopy? haha

I cannot see a problem, but much if a bore scope is not the pic in time, other than the gas port in a gas gun. Most is knowing where you are and the actively evaluation during the process. At least for me. Bore scoping is not something I do every week.

 

[Baron23]

Are you sure this is not Joe Biden’s colonoscopy? haha

I cannot see a problem, but much if a bore scope is not the pic in time, other than the gas port in a gas gun. Most is knowing where you are and the actively evaluation during the process. At least for me. Bore scoping is not something I do every week.

Thank you for your reply

 

[Evintos]

Measuring the throat erosion is a better way of estimating whether or not you're starting to reach the end of the barrel life (still not a guaranteed method since there are more factors). You would need beginning measurement and compare it to the current measurement.

The only thing I can tell from the pictures is that if it was me, I'd start to do what I consider a deep clean which is 100% carbon removal and 90-100% copper removal (90% - mostly silver but with some copper tint in certain areas remaining). Reason being is I see a mixture of "crisp" defined edges of the lands mixed with "soft" edges. Cleaning stuff is personal preference though.

 

[pmclaine]

That 'alligator cracking" is indicative of just how violent and hot the initiation of a powder burn is.

When I had my new installed Douglas 30-06 scoped with my teslong at less than 200 rounds the throat looked similar to that.

 

[Baron23]

That 'alligator cracking" is indicative of just how violent and hot the initiation of a powder burn is.

When I had my new installed Douglas 30-06 scoped with my teslong at less than 200 rounds the throat looked similar to that.

@Evintos

Thanks for the replies, guys

 

[Baron23]

That 'alligator cracking" is indicative of just how violent and hot the initiation of a powder burn is.

When I had my new installed Douglas 30-06 scoped with my teslong at less than 200 rounds the throat looked similar to that.

Oh, also…just a bit past the point shown in the pics, everything become shiny, bright, and still sharp w just little tints of copper here and there.

I use BoreTech carbon and copper cleaning products and leave a mop soaked in carbon remover in throat and bit into the bore. Not sure I could clean it better without doing damage and I’m not sure any further cleaning would buy me much.

Thoughts?

 

[Nik H]

Thoughts?

Why not just lay there and talk about it?

 

[Baron23]

Why not just lay there and talk about it?

Haha…you getting some good mileage out of that one, Niki! Lol

 

[Jrb572]

Plug the barrel and fill it with CLR bet some of that cracking goes away. My barrel looked like that until I used CLR on it

 

[Nik H]

Haha…you getting some good mileage out of that one, Niki! Lol

Hope you're well

 

[Bradu]

I'd clean it good, measure the lands to seat bullet longer if mag length allows, and redo load development. Run that until it loses accuracy then toss the barrel.

 

[Baron23]

Hope you're well

You too, my friend.

Had cataract surgery last Mon so I’m hopeful of being able to actually see the target next year. I had such a good time in the clinic that I plan on taking one again if they are coming back to the area. Mifflin and Matt were great, and the hotel w restaurants right next door was wonderful, but it would be nice to shoot to that range on a flatter field and see the math work out.

I will have a higher bipod next year if we go back there….or bring my own piece of 4x4! Haha

 

[Baron23]

I'd clean it good, measure the lands to seat bullet longer if mag length allows, and redo load development. Run that until it loses accuracy then toss the barrel.

What you are seeing is after a very good cleaning w BoreTech. I can always go after those first few inches again w their carbon remover, but just past where the pics are it’s all shiny and bright.

I’m already running .010” from mag length, and don’t really want/see need to get any closer, as the lead has clearly eroded some and that’s as close as I can get…est. about .080-.100” off of lands.

Thanks for your reply and input!

 

[Quicksilver338]

Some fire cracking going on which is normal. Definitely have a lot of heavy carbon deposits, which usually can creep in and cause some grief but so far for you it sounds like it hasn’t which is good. Try thorroclean from bullet central. Very non invasive way to do a heavy clean on stuff. If things are really stubborn I use simichrome and lightly scrub just the areas that need it. Getting the heavy carbon deposits out of the grooves will give you a better evaluation of the barrel condition. Most Creedmoors can get well into the 2000rd count range before they go. Buddies last competition barrel made it 2400rds before it let go…now that’s a competition barrel and not treated nicely.

 

[Baron23]

Some fire cracking going on which is normal. Definitely have a lot of heavy carbon deposits, which usually can creep in and cause some grief but so far for you it sounds like it hasn’t which is good. Try thorroclean from bullet central. Very non invasive way to do a heavy clean on stuff. If things are really stubborn I use simichrome and lightly scrub just the areas that need it. Getting the heavy carbon deposits out of the grooves will give you a better evaluation of the barrel condition. Most Creedmoors can get well into the 2000rd count range before they go. Buddies last competition barrel made it 2400rds before it let go…now that’s a competition barrel and not treated nicely.

Thanks…as I mentioned, just had cataract surgery and can’t shoot for another 3 wks, so I’ll try to get more of that carbon out.

Few inches further down, all is clean, bright, and sharp.

You mentioned your buddy’s barrel going at 2,400 rounds. I’m at 2k which is why my interest in this. I’m not a competitive shooter w long strings of fire, so hopefully o can get north of 2,500 but I think it’s time to keep a close watch on mv and precision.

Cheers

 

[Quicksilver338]

Just keep an eye on it, I wouldn’t expect to go out for bit if it’s been treated nicer.

 

[Steel head]

Pics mean nothing if it’s shooting well.
You should see my 7 saum barrels at about the 1200 shots mark but they keep on trucking a good bit past that.

 

[Baron23]

Pics mean nothing if it’s shooting well.
You should see my 7 saum barrels at about the 1200 shots mark but they keep on trucking a good bit past that.

Thanks! As I said, I get it about mv and groups being the real tell in when it’s fried, but I was just wondering if any sort of projection of remaining life could be drawn from this….and it seems to be no.

 

[Wannashootit]

Pretty extensive firecracking, as you note could be "anytime" for target accuracy.

The stubborn carbon in the grooves- I'd recommend JB Bore Paste.
This is the only "abrasive" I've ever put down a bore- and I do it reluctantly- but it does work.

 

[Chicory01]

Great pics, mind if I ask what kind of bores cope you're running?

 

[Baron23]

Pretty extensive firecracking, as you note could be "anytime" for target accuracy.

The stubborn carbon in the grooves- I'd recommend JB Bore Paste.
This is the only "abrasive" I've ever put down a bore- and I do it reluctantly- but it does work.

Thanks, I think before I go w any abrasive I’ll try more carbon remover and if I start to see any degradation then maybe try to spruce it up a bit w something harsher.

Thanks again.

 

[Baron23]

Great pics, mind if I ask what kind of bores cope you're running?

Teslong w the rigid probe. On Amazon and Teslong’s site.

I did get the one w it’s own display unit. My friend got one after me and said it was a better pic than his prior unit that interfaced w his phone/iPad but I cannot personally attest to there being any difference

 

[Quicksilver338]

Simichrome is a milder version of jb paste and much less invasive. It’s a polish not an abrasive paste. It does the trick, I’ve only had to use JB once or twice and that was on a baaaaad setup.

Pretty extensive firecracking, as you note could be "anytime" for target accuracy.

The stubborn carbon in the grooves- I'd recommend JB Bore Paste.
This is the only "abrasive" I've ever put down a bore- and I do it reluctantly- but it does work.

 

[Holliday]

Yes, sad as it may be, this is yet another bore scope thread.

A borescope is just a tool. Imagine if we “flipped out” every time someone posted a picture of a caliper around here.

I’d say you are using this tool properly and your questions are more than reasonable.

I have looked at quite a few barrels through a borescope, including my nearly 100 year old Niedner Mauser, which is still more accurate than me. I see nothing to be overly concerned about here. I shot my best group ever, with a barrel that looks similar, the other day.

If accuracy falls off, go after that carbon. I have been using CLR and it works wonders. Just be careful to keep it out of the action, trigger etc. Don’t leave it in too long and clean it out good.

 

[Holliday]

A link to a @orkan post where I got the CLR tip from. There is a link to his blog with a write-up.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/carbon-rings.6874904/post-6954766

I get a carbon ring near the case mouth in my .280 AI which spikes pressure. My theory is that it increases neck tension by squeezing the case. Below are before and after with CLR with almost no effort. In the past have used a bronze brush with Slip 2000 and still not gotten it all. CLR make quick work of it.

 

[Baron23]

A link to a @orkan post where I got the CLR tip from. There is a link to his blog with a write-up.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/carbon-rings.6874904/post-6954766

I get a carbon ring near the case mouth in my .280 AI which spikes pressure. My theory is that it increases neck tension by squeezing the case. Below are before and after with CLR with almost no effort. In the past have used a bronze brush with Slip 2000 and still not gotten it all. CLR make quick work of it.

View attachment 7745253

View attachment 7745249

You pulled the barrel to do it, yeah?

 

[Bacarrat]

My 6.5CM probably looks worse then that at 3200-3500 rounds. It still shoots pretty good (under .5 MOA) just had it out today and was still smoking a 10" steel plate at 1K. I just use the bore scope as a indicator on how bad the barrel is and if I need to clean more or not. If the barrel still shoots and the speeds have not fallen off the cliff, just keep on shooting it.

 

[Baron23]

My 6.5CM probably looks worse then that at 3200-3500 rounds. It still shoots pretty good (under .5 MOA) just had it out today and was still smoking a 10" steel plate at 1K. I just use the bore scope as a indicator on how bad the barrel is and if I need to clean more or not. If the barrel still shoots and the speeds have not fallen off the cliff, just keep on shooting it.

Thanks fir the reply and yes…that is my plan.

 

[Holliday]

You pulled the barrel to do it, yeah?

No, I ran some patches in the chamber and felts down the bore both with CLR. Use a bore-guide to keep it out of the action though. I let it sit 15 mins. Then I blasted the chamber and bore with KG-3 solvent, then more patches w/ solvent and dry patches. Then I finished off with Montana xtreeme Bore conditioner in the bore, then a dry patch in the chamber and dry felt down the bore.

 

[jrsnell]

If you are interested in some before and after barrel surveys, very similar to your own to use for comparison please visit https://snellsnotebook.us/ShootingProjects.html and click the ‘Barrel Survey Listings by Firearm’ link about mid page.

The 6.5 CM is a Ruger Precision.

Fire cracking opens crevasses, the surrounding steel remains flat and smooth. It is the result of axial expansion due to pressure under high heat. Creedmoors tend to exhibit fire cracking immediately, whereas 308s often do not or do so to a lesser degree. It may have much to do with where along the barrel PMax occurs.

Many of my surveys are before and after cleaning. My cleaning regime is to use KG products to remove Carbon, not Copper until accuracy falls off, then remove both, and replace a light Copper coating by firing a few rounds to settle accuracy. I find accuracy falls off at different numbers of rounds fired for each caliber I own. Where I have more than one barrel (5.56 NATO) I haven’t been able to find the fall off point, even after a very productive season of ground squirrels. That may be a characteristic related to exclusively on using 223 CFE powder, which most definitely stops Copper buildup. The 6.5 Creedmoore was after H4350 loads following full cleaning. The 308 feeds on Varget mostly.

As to predicting the loss of accuracy by borescope, I have not shot out any of my barrels, although I expect my Savage 10FCP in 204 Ruger to go first, its already around 4,000 rounds, its had molly in the barrel (just don’t ever do that!), but it still holds 3/8 MOA even when firing at a 3-5 shot per minute rate for 10-20 minutes (squirrel wars), to stretch its accurate life, I’ve gone to using AR platforms with several uppers, now they get hot, and the old girl only gets used on the occasional 600 yd plus shots. The AR’s tend to group larger than ‘minute of squirrel’ around 400 yds, but do get their share of the longer hits. Sorry, back to the question at hand, I do not believe we will be able to predict remaining barrel life from borescoping, only performance will dictate replacement, and techniques like chasing the lands may stretch the service life. Cal Zant has done a lot of statistical work on the subject from the perspective of PRS match rifles, its very much worth reading.

 

[Maxduty]

I'd get that carbon out, but you've got green spots showing in the pic. I'd surmise that's the copper cleaner still in your barrel. Get that out.