You send your barrel back because "It won't shoot" - first thing the maker does is.....

[secondofangle2]

I have only done this once, and not recently. But I've read some reports. List your answer for the first thing the maker (barrel maker or gunsmith does), and explain your interpretation/inferences. I'll go first.

First, they clean the shit out of it....

And I infer this to mean that, despite all the controversy about cleaning, they want to get the barrel back as close to an original state as they can before they evaluate further, and moreover that cleaning a barrel matters.....

discuss...

....also, would be delighted to hear some "maker" (barrel maker or gunsmith) stories too

 

[BurtG]

This sounds like a Friday night troll post

Il start

WTF barrel worms?

Ok, the title is a joke, but check this out. From my AIAX barrel, it used to shoot one shot on top of the next, now the groups have opened up, it still shoots good but just not 1/4 moa anymore. WTF did I do, was this from rust? Overpressure? I have never oiled my barrels and was this from...

www.snipershide.com

Stuff of nightmares there for civilized shooters that think they can go long periods without cleaning

 

[308pirate]

First, they clean the shit out of it....

And I infer this to mean that, despite all the controversy about cleaning, they want to get the barrel back as close to an original state as they can before they evaluate further, and moreover that cleaning a barrel matters

It's hard to do a thorough visual and dimensional inspection when the part in question is covered in shit.

Inferring more beyond that is injecting self bias into the discussion.

 

[Chris1972]

Only have had to do this once. The barrel manufacturer insisted I send in my entire rifle, scope and all. They got back to me promptly and said there was nothing at all wrong with the barrel but they replaced it to eliminate it as an issue. They then proceeded to tell me I had my scope mounted wrong and that was likely the issue.
Had a similar issue with a Leupold Mk-5. They replaced the erector but said there was nothing wrong with it.


I guess this is good customer service while denying any liability.

 

[strikeeagle1]

"Plausible deniability".

 

[hero's machine]

The favorite maker here told me to send it in dirty. I had a 2b that wouldn't shoot anything under 3moa. I replaced it with the same and now it's a hammer.

 

[TicTacTex]

@Frank Green we got another one for ya. Lol.

 

[davsco]

mine sent a call tag, checked out the barrel and agreed it could have been made better, and replaced it.

 

[Easy_E]

Only have had to do this once. The barrel manufacturer insisted I send in my entire rifle, scope and all. They got back to me promptly and said there was nothing at all wrong with the barrel but they replaced it to eliminate it as an issue. They then proceeded to tell me I had my scope mounted wrong and that was likely the issue.
Had a similar issue with a Leupold Mk-5. They replaced the erector but said there was nothing wrong with it.


I guess this is good customer service while denying any liability.

Well did it shoot better after they returned it ?

 

[Maxduty]

I bought a commercial rifle that wouldn't shoot. Sent it back to the manufacturer. They said it was fine. When if came back they had replaced the stock, the barrel and the bolt. It was better but soon became someone elses problem.

 

[Chris1972]

Well did it shoot better after they returned it ?

Marginally. I was not happy, and it may have been my lack of resolve. I’ve had much better luck with others. It NEVER shot good. I did put forth the effort.

 

[Megalodong]

@Frank Green we got another one for ya. Lol.

I’ll save him the trouble. The customer messed the barrel up cleaning it. They messed the barrel up because they don’t know how to reload. It was something other than the barrel. You’d be surprised the dumb stuff people do to their barrels. It’s never the barrel itself.

 

[308pirate]

I bought a commercial rifle that wouldn't shoot. Sent it back to the manufacturer. They said it was fine. When if came back they had replaced the stock, the barrel and the bolt. It was better but soon became someone elses problem.

We investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrongdoing

 

[Maurygold]

Fought for weeks with Greg at SPR because he left a bur in my chamber that was gouging brass and wouldn’t extract.

He forced me to agree to pay for him to test the barrel if it wasn’t a bad chambering. In the end he had to fix the barrel for free but refused to admit it was his fault (even though polishing the chamber and taking the bur out made it work properly)

I will never be back there. He refused to admit fault despite how obvious it was he did bad work.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Assuming the entire rifle, or the barreled action is on hand we visually inspect things with naked eye and borescope. Just to make sure it should function properly.

Then we go shoot it. If customer supplies ammo, we'll use that. Also just common factory and our in house loaded ammo. We don't clean first unless it's so dirty that we can't see anything or feel it will likely not shoot well that dirty. The reason for this is that we want to give every chance to recreate the issue the customer is describing.

If we can recreate the issue, then find out its something user related, it's much easier to explain to the customer that the rifle exhibited the issue and we were able to correct it via something they didn't do or should have done. For example, if it is a cleaning issue....if we clean the rifle and it shoots well, we'd send it back to customer saying everything is fine. They would get the barrel dirty again to a certain point and it will start shooting poorly again. They'll be more inclined to think it's something wrong with the work. Rather than we show them the groups the rifle shot with how dirty it was, then the way it performs properly when clean.

We don't even check all the torque at first unless it's obviously loose somewhere. As again, we want to exhibit the issue, then find out that it was because of something loose. Then we torque it properly and show the customer it's performing properly due to proper assembly.

Once it's determined it was no problem, user error, or our error, we will make sure the rifle is properly cleaned and then a few fouling shots before shipping back to customer.


Other's may do it differently. But we feel that as long as its safe, starting with the product in the exact shape the customer sends it, is the best way to make sure they customer is happy going forward.

 

[stanley_white]

Fought for weeks with Greg at SPR because he left a bur in my chamber that was gouging brass and wouldn’t extract.

He forced me to agree to pay for him to test the barrel if it wasn’t a bad chambering. In the end he had to fix the barrel for free but refused to admit it was his fault (even though polishing the chamber and taking the bur out made it work properly)

I will never be back there. He refused to admit fault despite how obvious it was he did bad work.

What is SPR?

-Stan

 

[Maurygold]

What is SPR?

-Stan

Southern precision rifles aka bugholes. Some have had a positive experience but him blaming alpha brass for weeks and refusing to help, then being a complete asshat when it was his fault turned me away forever.

 

[stanley_white]

Southern precision rifles aka bugholes. Some have had a positive experience but him blaming alpha brass for weeks and refusing to help, then being a complete asshat when it was his fault turned me away forever.

Thank you!

-Stan

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I guess it depends on how much the vendor is willing to share about their process right?

I had Proof replace a barrel recently, after exhausting the limits of their email troubleshooting.

After inspection, the explanation I got was that "they found a few things that would add up to create accuracy issues", the only one that was shared with me was irregular gas port erosion.

Its the only barrel Ive ever had to send back, so who knows what the norm is for that type of conversation? I could anticipate another company similarly saying "we're replacing it" and not share any more detail either.

 

[Rodney65]

At what point do you as a customer feel a barrel is unsatisfactory and a manufacturer should take action? Non sub MOA groups? Can't put ten in the same hole with your favorite load?

 

[Chris1972]

For me it was when the reamer chatter was so bad it printed on the brass.

 

[Rodney65]

For me it was when the reamer chatter was so bad it printed on the brass.

That's fair. I had a barrel where brass fired in any other barrel needed to be small base sized with a special die or they would get extremely stuck in the chamber. It was an accurate and fast barrel that I sold with a disclaimer because I didn't want the extra headache.

 

[4O6shootist]

I’ll save him the trouble. The customer messed the barrel up cleaning it. They messed the barrel up because they don’t know how to reload. It was something other than the barrel. You’d be surprised the dumb stuff people do to their barrels. It’s never the barrel itself.

This is what Bart will tell you. They do make bad barrels, as EVERYONE let's a bad one out the door from time to time. 3rd party carbon wrapping has been their biggest issue. Inconsistency in wrap, inconsistency in resin, gaps at steel shoulders on muzzle and shank. Put it in the cerakote over after paint and the fn resin bleeds out. I don't do many carbons anymore.

 

[mewillis]

I sent an .308 Armalite 16" barrel back because of inconsistency, the armorer called me and said "we're just going to swap the barrel out no testing, no excuses" Perhaps they knew of issues with a run of barrels but he changed it out and sent it back the next day. All along I was blaming my ACOG until I suspected the barrel. Shoots great now, that is what CS is all about, no BS

 

[AleksanderSuave]

At what point do you as a customer feel a barrel is unsatisfactory and a manufacturer should take action? Non sub MOA groups? Can't put ten in the same hole with your favorite load?

I would imagine that the generally accepted criteria from any decent barrel maker now who offers a sub moa guarantee is performance that doesn’t meet Sub Moa grouping with match ammo (not bubbas pissin hot loads).

If I spend $500+ on a barrel with a sub moa guarantee, and it shoots 1.5” 5 shot groups with $1.50-$2/round ammo, it’s being sent back.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Buy a bartlien, benchmark, kreiger, hawk hill (crb) and have it done by a good Smith ( most arent) who is willing to explain their chambering process in detail and the chance of getting a bad barrel is almost zero. Even better if you have your own reamer to ensure its fresh cut and the same as your other barrels.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Buy a bartlien, benchmark, kreiger, hawk hill (crb) and have it done by a good Smith ( most arent) who is willing to explain their chambering process in detail and the chance of getting a bad barrel is almost zero. Even better if you have your own reamer to ensure its fresh cut and the same as your other barrels.

That was originally my plan. Just didnt want to wait 6-8 months for a barrel. My mistake for being impatient honestly..

 

[4O6shootist]

That was originally my plan. Just didnt want to wait 6-8 months for a barrel. My mistake for being impatient honestly..

Keep an eye at Bugholes or OTM they have shipments arriving regularly. I'd personally opt for a kreiger myself.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Keep an eye at Bugholes or OTM they have shipments arriving regularly. I'd personally opt for a kreiger myself.

I already got the replacement from proof, and Im 500 rounds into it at least. Im committed to this one by now.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

I would like to share my experience, from the builder side......I'll try not to MF companies/customers too much.......haha.

Lately I have been battling 7prc accuracy issues.

Customer bought Hornady "Match" ammo...... shot like dick......like 2"......lots of two close together than one out. I took the rifle back in......totally cleaned and checked EVERYTHING. Nothing obvious, so I ordered more factory ammo and slapped on a Cortina tuner brake. Figured if I can get tight groups with a tuner......than the customer should be able to fine tune a handload for it. I have never seen a truly bad barrel shoot good with a tuner. Shot 25rnds of different lot Hornady "Match" ammo.......complete dogshit.......like 120fps ES dogshit.......and not just a single outlier.......pretty much all rounds were 40-60fps different from the previous. Tuner didn't do much......too much velocity difference.

Switched to Federal Terminal Ascent.....couple 2-shot groups about .75moa while I tuned......then found the sweet spot and shot multiple groups well under .5moa guarantee. I have no doubts this rifle can shoot really well with a well tuned handload. Customer preferred not to reload for this rifle. Also this ammo had a 20fps ES for 20rnds.

I DON'T EAT THE COST OF A RE-BARREL BECAUSE YOU PREFER NOT TO RELOAD!!!

If this becomes the industry expectation......count on prices going up 50% or more.

Personally, I think there is more "out of tune" ammo out there than bad barrels. I also think it is dumb to purchase a top shelf rifle setup and not reload for it. Call me retarded, but I even reload for shitter factory rifles.......and pistols.

Ern

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Good ammo doesn't need a tune. Hornady bullets are very unforgiving of seating depth. That's why berger hybrids are the gold standard. Anything that says hornady is not close to match. A 120 es has nothing to do with bullet comp...that's just piss poor powder measuring and inconsistent neck tension. If I have to shoot box ammo it's norma, lapua or federal. They have much tighter controls and higher standards for production ammo.

Shoot bergers....be happy.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Or the oldschool design Sierra Matchkings. They may not be the highest BC nowadays but man they sure are "set it and forget it"......very forgiving.

Ern

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I DON'T EAT THE COST OF A RE-BARREL BECAUSE YOU PREFER NOT TO RELOAD!!!

If this becomes the industry expectation......count on prices going up 50% or more.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I’ve often heard FGMM offered as a benchmark for “if it won’t shoot that well, toss it” and of course “you gotta try a couple different factory options” so I find the trust you put in bubbahJoes hand loads interesting. I would have assumed a shop would make judgements based on factory ammo, since you can point to a box on the shelf and say “yeah dude, it passed with this ammo” but tbh I’ve never given much thought to accuracy guarantees or been stuck with a bum barrel(touch wood).

 

[Cascade Hemi]

SPR made a barrel for me and there was an error on the prefit. I contacted them and had a return label within a couple of hours. I had some additional work I wanted done to the same barrel, and another barrel, at the same time. I asked to pay for the additional work. SPR comp'd the additional work and overnighted both barrels both ways.

I have a handful of barrels cut by SPR. I have spoken with them a bunch of times and found them to be both knowledgeable and genuine. I can only imagine what it would take to get those guys to react negatively. Their barrels shoot and they are excellent to work with.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I would like to share my experience, from the builder side......I'll try not to MF companies/customers too much.......haha.

Lately I have been battling 7prc accuracy issues.

Customer bought Hornady "Match" ammo...... shot like dick......like 2"......lots of two close together than one out. I took the rifle back in......totally cleaned and checked EVERYTHING. Nothing obvious, so I ordered more factory ammo and slapped on a Cortina tuner brake. Figured if I can get tight groups with a tuner......than the customer should be able to fine tune a handload for it. I have never seen a truly bad barrel shoot good with a tuner. Shot 25rnds of different lot Hornady "Match" ammo.......complete dogshit.......like 120fps ES dogshit.......and not just a single outlier.......pretty much all rounds were 40-60fps different from the previous. Tuner didn't do much......too much velocity difference.

Switched to Federal Terminal Ascent.....couple 2-shot groups about .75moa while I tuned......then found the sweet spot and shot multiple groups well under .5moa guarantee. I have no doubts this rifle can shoot really well with a well tuned handload. Customer preferred not to reload for this rifle. Also this ammo had a 20fps ES for 20rnds.

I DON'T EAT THE COST OF A RE-BARREL BECAUSE YOU PREFER NOT TO RELOAD!!!

If this becomes the industry expectation......count on prices going up 50% or more.

Personally, I think there is more "out of tune" ammo out there than bad barrels. I also think it is dumb to purchase a top shelf rifle setup and not reload for it. Call me retarded, but I even reload for shitter factory rifles.......and pistols.

Ern

Im perplexed by this explanation as well..

You’re trying to say that you trust bubbas pissin hot loads as a better accuracy test of a barrel you’ve sold than a commercial match grade ammo….?

The whole point of match ammo is to control another layer of variables, one that you're instead introducing by encouraging hand loads.

So how do you account for the novice or shit hand loader…?

What happens if the customer double charges or similar, runs a hot load, and ruins the rifle in the process? You going to process a "warranty return" on your dime and eat the cost, because you stated that hand loads are more reliable as an accuracy test than factory ammo?

 

[JR1200W3]

I sent an .308 Armalite 16" barrel back because of inconsistency, the armorer called me and said "we're just going to swap the barrel out no testing, no excuses" Perhaps they knew of issues with a run of barrels but he changed it out and sent it back the next day. All along I was blaming my ACOG until I suspected the barrel. Shoots great now, that is what CS is all about, no BS

The "armorer"? Sir, this is the real world. We use gunsmiths

 

[Mister Ridge]

I would like to share my experience, from the builder side......I'll try not to MF companies/customers too much.......haha.

Lately I have been battling 7prc accuracy issues.

Customer bought Hornady "Match" ammo...... shot like dick......like 2"......lots of two close together than one out. I took the rifle back in......totally cleaned and checked EVERYTHING. Nothing obvious, so I ordered more factory ammo and slapped on a Cortina tuner brake. Figured if I can get tight groups with a tuner......than the customer should be able to fine tune a handload for it. I have never seen a truly bad barrel shoot good with a tuner. Shot 25rnds of different lot Hornady "Match" ammo.......complete dogshit.......like 120fps ES dogshit.......and not just a single outlier.......pretty much all rounds were 40-60fps different from the previous. Tuner didn't do much......too much velocity difference.

Switched to Federal Terminal Ascent.....couple 2-shot groups about .75moa while I tuned......then found the sweet spot and shot multiple groups well under .5moa guarantee. I have no doubts this rifle can shoot really well with a well tuned handload. Customer preferred not to reload for this rifle. Also this ammo had a 20fps ES for 20rnds.

I DON'T EAT THE COST OF A RE-BARREL BECAUSE YOU PREFER NOT TO RELOAD!!!

If this becomes the industry expectation......count on prices going up 50% or more.

Personally, I think there is more "out of tune" ammo out there than bad barrels. I also think it is dumb to purchase a top shelf rifle setup and not reload for it. Call me retarded, but I even reload for shitter factory rifles.......and pistols.

Ern

Depending on the caliber, I'd be pretty upset if I paid for top shelf work and then got told I need to invest extra time and money for it to actually perform better than off the shelf rifles. I'd like to get an M24 but it damn sure better shoot well with factory available ammo.

 

[JR1200W3]

Depending on the caliber, I'd be pretty upset if I paid for top shelf work and then got told I need to invest extra time and money for it to actually perform better than off the shelf rifles. I'd like to get an M24 but it damn sure better shoot well with factory available ammo.

It's not going to shoot better than the ammo. That's his point. A custom barrel won't make bad ammo shoot well. Think about it....

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Indeed, in a perfect world, the chosen handloader would know what he is doing and the ammo maker would put out an excellent and consistent product. Along those lines the rifle builder and parts suppliers would be perfect too......thus problem avoided.

Until then, I will stick to custom reloading to suffice guarantee if needed. The customer can play roulette on his dime with barrel jobs until he gets one that shoots to expectation with factory ammo......he better buy cases of the same lot for the life of the barrel too.......or say a prayer every night the ammo company doesn't tweak something on the next batch......haha.

I don't understand the resistance to reloading? I started reloading for accuracy long before I had a factory rifle rebarreled.

It's the crawl, walk, run of rifle shooting.

Ern

 

[JR1200W3]

Indeed, in a perfect world, the chosen handloader would know what he is doing and the ammo maker would put out an excellent and consistent product. Along those lines the rifle builder and parts suppliers would be perfect too......thus problem avoided.

I don't understand the resistance to reloading? I started reloading for accuracy long before I had a factory rifle rebarreled.

It's the crawl, walk, run of rifle shooting.

Ern

How do you account for people that stuff C4 in their reloads? I don't understand your logic.

 

[kthomas]

This is what Bart will tell you. They do make bad barrels, as EVERYONE let's a bad one out the door from time to time. 3rd party carbon wrapping has been their biggest issue. Inconsistency in wrap, inconsistency in resin, gaps at steel shoulders on muzzle and shank. Put it in the cerakote over after paint and the fn resin bleeds out. I don't do many carbons anymore.

Yeah, it seems like there's too many potential areas for failure with carbon barrels.

I agree with you, I would rather stick to full steel. If you need lighter weight, get a lighter contour.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Indeed, in a perfect world, the chosen handloader would know what he is doing and the ammo maker would put out an excellent and consistent product. Along those lines the rifle builder and parts suppliers would be perfect too......thus problem avoided.

I don't understand the resistance to reloading? I started reloading for accuracy long before I had a factory rifle rebarreled.

It's the crawl, walk, run of rifle shooting.

Ern

I shot a class a few years back. One of the other students had a brand new custom rifle. He had never shot the gun prior to the class and he bought the ammo blind. More or less took all of it out of the package on the first dat. He could not get it on paper at 300 yards and struggled for four days.

When I spoke with him he was pretty knowledgeable and had taken an Accuracy First class the month before. Some people are "gun people" but are not technically proficient.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

Depending on the caliber, I'd be pretty upset if I paid for top shelf work and then got told I need to invest extra time and money for it to actually perform better than off the shelf rifles. I'd like to get an M24 but it damn sure better shoot well with factory available ammo.

Given that M24s are 1moa rifles/118lr at best.......and its common that "off the shelf" 308win rifles shoot 1moa ish......you may be disappointed in your wishes.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

I shot a class a few years back. One of the other students had a brand new custom rifle. He had never shot the gun prior to the class and he bought the ammo blind. More or less took all of it out of the package on the first dat. He could not get it on paper at 300 yards and struggled for four days.

When I spoke with him he was pretty knowledgeable and had taken an Accuracy First class the month before. Some people are "gun people" but are not technically proficient.

Absolutely, so I try my best to work with that. The best solution I have found is to get the customer to try a few basic trouble shooting things. Swap ammo, swap scope, swap shooter.

Other than that.....send it back for full inspection and accuracy test (possible handloading). If it passes and nothing is wrong, customer gets a bill.

Option B - I felt is screwing over the knowledgeable reloader guy, which I will never do. My goal is to promote learning/experience not reward the ignorant/lazy. I am not going to factor in added costs to every build on the chance of a small percentage coming back for accuracy proofing.

Option C - Again screwing over the motivated technically proficient guy by shooting every rifle I build for accuracy before it ships. Again added costs for time and supplies passed on to the customer for a service most prefer to do themselves.

Just some things I have thought about over the years.

Ern

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

How do you account for people that stuff C4 in their reloads? I don't understand your logic.

Hahaha......after they get out of the hospital and pick up the pieces my insurance agent can show them the QC sheet and factory ammo test fire casing logged with their order.

Other than that, I guess we are both shit outta luck.....

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Indeed, in a perfect world, the chosen handloader would know what he is doing and the ammo maker would put out an excellent and consistent product. Along those lines the rifle builder and parts suppliers would be perfect too......thus problem avoided.

Until then, I will stick to custom reloading to suffice guarantee if needed. The customer can play roulette on his dime with barrel jobs until he gets one that shoots to expectation with factory ammo......he better buy cases of the same lot for the life of the barrel too.......or say a prayer every night the ammo company doesn't tweak something on the next batch......haha.

I don't understand the resistance to reloading? I started reloading for accuracy long before I had a factory rifle rebarreled.

It's the crawl, walk, run of rifle shooting.

Ern

Repeating my question.. what’s your plan for when a customer uses their home brew loads and gets shit results..?

You going to eat the cost to prove them wrong? Waste your personal time developing a load after taking the barrel back..?

I have a mark 7 reloading setup downstairs, as far as capability and equipment goes.. that’s all here.

if Proof’s response to the bad barrel they sold me would have been “it needs some hand loads to shoot”, I’m not sure what would have ended first, the laughing fit I’d have, or the immediate return shipment that would have been sent back for a refund instead of agreeing to an exchange.

 

[stanley_white]

I DON'T EAT THE COST OF A RE-BARREL BECAUSE YOU PREFER NOT TO RELOAD!!!

Do you let your customers know your expectations of them prior to them making a purchase?

-Stan

 

[misser]

i did send an upper back , a bolt action version for an AR 10. I was saying its a headspace problem??. i was contacted an was told there was nothing wrong . i then said look at the bolt face .was then told the bolt was made out of spec. they replaced the bolt. i am now a happy camper

 

[Mister Ridge]

Given that M24s are 1moa rifles/118lr at best.......and its common that "off the shelf" 308win rifles shoot 1moa ish......you may be disappointed in your wishes.

I thought the context would make it clear that I was talking about an M24 from someplace like GAP or RWS. And yes, I would be very disappointed if it didn't shooter at least as well as a stock Savage or Tikka.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

I thought the context would make it clear that I was talking about an M24 from someplace like GAP or RWS. And yes, I would be very disappointed if it didn't shooter at least as well as a stock Savage or Tikka.

Clones definitely shoot better.