Zermatt Origin Vs ARC Coup De Grace? New vs Used make a difference?

[brian2382]

Sure, if you are into push feed trash.
(Those differing opinions lash was referring to)

very interesting, what makes you say its push feed trash?

I know no different so honest question; but your also the first person I have seen on SnipersHide who has spoke negatively of the 737r

 

[spife7980]

very interesting, what makes you say its push feed trash?

I know no different so honest question; but your also the first person I have seen on SnipersHide who has spoke negatively of the 737r

What makes me say that is it is a push feed.
I like controlled round feed (crf).

Impact is a finely crafted action, its just not the style I like.

 

[brian2382]

I've got 3 AIs, a TL3, an impact, an Archimedes, and a CDG on order.

...

Thank you for all that information! It sounds like your very well rounded in the Action market! I do hope the CDG gains a prefit barrel market. If Proof offered one, I would have never needed to post this thread and would have just gone with the CDG&proof! lol.

It seems like you have a very diverse accumulation of actions; If you don't mind me asking why not have the Impact 737r in your collection? I am sure you have some experiance with it

 

[st1650]

I’m a ARC guy (2 nukes, 1 arch and 1 CDG) all with TT double stage triggers. I’ll probably use blue loctite on my trigger hanger adjustment screws.
If I was running an origin I wouldn’t be running a TT, I’d run a BnA Tacsport pro with the proper sear.
I run a RimX and have some timing issues with my TT Diamond 1 stage that I hope will be resolved with a BnA

 

[st1650]

Also agreed, CRF > Pushfeed.
Tikkas, AIs and DTAs are okay push feeds but if I’m going with a 700 footprint, give me CRF and 3 lugs.

 

[carbonbased]

Removing a small amount of material from a cocking piece to time cock on close is easier and faster that tuning mag feed lips, cleaning a barrel, doing load development, or leveling a scope. It's just not something most people expect to do so they act like like your 70 year old in-laws with the remote.

Does the cocking piece = top sear?

If so, I imagine one has to remove the trigger each time to file off a little more?

I’ve never done what you suggest as I have been using Bix ‘n Andy TacSport Pros and seem to have had decent luck. I just order the correct top sear for whatever action. Certain actions could be a tad smoother, however, when compared to the same action and same trigger.

So you’ve gotten me curious to try to refine the top sear engagement on a variety of my rifles, including the ones with BnA triggers. I somehow thought it was black magic.

 

[spife7980]

Does the cocking piece = top sear?

on the firing pin, not the trigger

 

[Kiba]

Thank you for all that information! It sounds like your very well rounded in the Action market! I do hope the CDG gains a prefit barrel market. If Proof offered one, I would have never needed to post this thread and would have just gone with the CDG&proof! lol.

It seems like you have a very diverse accumulation of actions; If you don't mind me asking why not have the Impact 737r in your collection? I am sure you have some experiance with it

I do have an impact 737 cut for AW magazines in the safe which I mentioned... It's a very nice action, works well, and there's lots of prefits available for it, but I prefer the overall feel of the bolt cycle on the Archimedes. Not that the impact is bad or rough (it's a very nice action) but the Archimedes is just smoother imo.

The impact can run double stack AW mags though, while the Archimedes can only run single stack AICS mags, and given the choice I'll always get an AW cut action and run an AW mag if possible as they're shorter and much easier to load than single stack AICS mags. Sometimes the AW mags do need some adjustments for latch height to work well with your particular action and stock/bottom metal/chassis combination, while the single stack AICS mags are more forgiving with R700 style actions.

My Archimedes is in 223AI, and only single stack mags are available for 223, so the single stack only Archimedes is perfect for that. I have 2 more Archimedes actions in the safe that will probably get used for a super light 223 build and a lightweight hunting oriented 7 PRC build, and again, only single stack mags are available for those calibers so the Archimedes will work perfect.

I picked up the CDG for my 22GT build since I can use AW mags with that caliber. I was initially planning on using my spare short action Archimedes for the 22GT but as soon as I saw the CDG supported AW mags I decided to use that instead.

I don't think you can really go wrong with any of the choices out there. The impact is really, really popular right now, so tons of places offer prefits. The TL3 and Origin are nice too, and offer inexpensive swappable bolt heads if you ever wanted to change to a different bolt face in the future, compared to the impact where you have to buy a complete bolt. I believe the origin is AICS single stack magazine only, you have to step up to the TL3 to get one cut to run AW mags. There's nothing wrong with the single stack AICS magazines, but once you use the shorter and easier to load double stack AW mags it's hard to go back.

Does the cocking piece = top sear?

If so, I imagine one has to remove the trigger each time to file off a little more?

I’ve never done what you suggest as I have been using Bix ‘n Andy TacSport Pros and seem to have had decent luck. I just order the correct top sear for whatever action. Certain actions could be a tad smoother, however, when compared to the same action and same trigger.

So you’ve gotten me curious to try to refine the top sear engagement on a variety of my rifles, including the ones with BnA triggers. I somehow thought it was black magic.

Sear height is different than trigger timing. If the sear is too tall you can have excessive cocking piece drag across the top of the sear which can lead to firing pin drag and light strikes. Too low and the sear engagement with the cocking piece might not be adequate and the firing pin might fall if you drop or bump the rifle or wiggle the bolt handle.

Timing is adjusting the forward/aft position of the cocking piece or trigger sear surface, typically to ensure zero cock or decock on close for a 100% cock on open action for the smoothest possible bolt closing. You can do that by removing material from the sear on the trigger or sear interface surface on the cocking piece attached to the firing pin, or moving a trigger hanger forward or aft.

The impact has some cock on close by design so trigger timing isn't as critical to the overall feeling of the bolt cycle, but for a 100% cock on open action a properly timed trigger with zero overcocking on close can make a big difference in the overall bolt feel during closing.

 

[brian2382]

I do have an impact 737 cut for AW magazines in the safe which I mentioned... It's a very nice action, works well, and there's lots of prefits available for it, but I prefer the overall feel of the bolt cycle on the Archimedes. Not that the impact is bad or rough (it's a very nice action) but the Archimedes is just smoother imo.

The impact can run double stack AW mags though, while the Archimedes can only run single stack AICS mags, and given the choice I'll always get an AW cut action and run an AW mag if possible as they're shorter and much easier to load than single stack AICS mags. Sometimes the AW mags do need some adjustments for latch height to work well with your particular action and stock/bottom metal/chassis combination, while the single stack AICS mags are more forgiving with R700 style actions.

My Archimedes is in 223AI, and only single stack mags are available for 223, so the single stack only Archimedes is perfect for that. I have 2 more Archimedes actions in the safe that will probably get used for a super light 223 build and a lightweight hunting oriented 7 PRC build, and again, only single stack mags are available for those calibers so the Archimedes will work perfect.

I picked up the CDG for my 22GT build since I can use AW mags with that caliber. I was initially planning on using my spare short action Archimedes for the 22GT but as soon as I saw the CDG supported AW mags I decided to use that instead.

I don't think you can really go wrong with any of the choices out there. The impact is really, really popular right now, so tons of places offer prefits. The TL3 and Origin are nice too, and offer inexpensive swappable bolt heads if you ever wanted to change to a different bolt face in the future, compared to the impact where you have to buy a complete bolt. I believe the origin is AICS single stack magazine only, you have to step up to the TL3 to get one cut to run AW mags. There's nothing wrong with the single stack AICS magazines, but once you use the shorter and easier to load double stack AW mags it's hard to go back.



Sear height is different than trigger timing. If the sear is too tall you can have excessive cocking piece drag across the top of the sear which can lead to firing pin drag and light strikes. Too low and the sear engagement with the cocking piece might not be adequate and the firing pin might fall if you drop or bump the rifle or wiggle the bolt handle.

Timing is adjusting the forward/aft position of the cocking piece or trigger sear surface, typically to ensure zero cock or decock on close for a 100% cock on open action for the smoothest possible bolt closing. You can do that by removing material from the sear on the trigger or sear interface surface on the cocking piece attached to the firing pin, or moving a trigger hanger forward or aft.

I'm sorry, I glazed right over the fact you said you had an impact. You have provided me a ton of great information, thank you!

 

[carbonbased]

Hmmm it appears I need to look much deeper into this. Thanks, @Kiba and @spife7980

Edit: ha! I either forgot the name of the cocking piece or never knew its name. Always (re?)learning, I guess. Thx again.

 

[Rant Durden]

I jumped on the custom action with an Origin am super happy with it. Trigger Tech Diamond bolted right up and I bought a shouldered prefit from PVA. I was told I didn’t need go, no-go gauges , but I got them anyways because I have trust issues. Installation was exactly as it was supposed to be and chamber was perfect.
I’m sure you would have the same experience with a CDG.

 

[4O6shootist]

I have a couple origins, a tl3, and a pair of cdg, an Archimedes, and ran a nuc 2.0 for a few years. The faster you run an ARC action, the smoother they are. Zermatt makes a good product, tho. However for the price, the CDG has a LOT of upgrades. Integral rail and lug. Adjustable hanger, aw and aics mag compatability. The origin lug sucks, my locating pin needs replaced as it's tweaked after swapping barrels over prob 6-8 times. I should have gone with integral lug action for a switch barrel. I use copper anti seize on the tenon face and threads, still wants to walk the lug when getting to trq value. The newer origins come timed to a trigger tech for minimal to no cock on close, which are the most common triggers anymore. The only things I'll recommend if you're going to run aw mags, choose a br variant with hrd kits, or run a full 2.8" plus cartridge like a creed or X47. The only cartridge I've found finicky in the aw mags is the gt variants. They almost need a mini hrd kit. However with an origin and arc aics mags, I've ran 22 br, gt and creed with fantastic results. Just my experiences!

 

[4O6shootist]

You're torquing the barrel unnecessarily hard. It absolutely doesn't need more than 40 ft/lbs of you'r just pulling it off in a couple of days.

40'/#s? Man......I originally was told 100#, then just started going 75#. I will go lighter next time and see if it makes a difference. The 22br barrel lives there most the time anymore, but do have a 65cm pipe on the way to use as a loaner rig for our local league.

 

[Rob01]

100? LOL I do about 60 and I think that's on the heavy side.

 

[TheOE800]

*gulps in 115lbs CDG barrel torque*

 

[Rob01]

 

[Im2bent]

So what did the OP get and I thought proof makes cdg prefits?

 

[4O6shootist]

*gulps in 115lbs CDG barrel torque*

I only torqued mine to 75#, no issues thus far.

 

[Rob01]

Exactly. A very well known and well respected rifle company doesn't even use a torque wrench. They use a long T handle. Bring action in to touch then back off about 1/4 turn and then slam tight. That's it. No crazy high number.

 

[4O6shootist]

It's not really about the action. It's more about what you're doing to your tenon threads. At what point do you start stretching threads? And what problem are you trying to solve by using so much torque?

Don't talk to Mike at Tacops, think they go loco with 200# or something like that.

 

[TheOE800]

It's not really about the action. It's more about what you're doing to your tenon threads. At what point do you start stretching threads? And what problem are you trying to solve by using so much torque?

Just following the manufacturer’s specs.

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

It's not really about the action. It's more about what you're doing to your tenon threads. At what point do you start stretching threads? And what problem are you trying to solve by using so much torque?

The typical tenon thread is relatively large though. Those types of joints have pretty high standard torque values.

 

[Kiba]

200 lb-ft is absolutely nothing for the diameter and pitch of the tenon threads, even if the barrel is softer than a regular bolt.

Lubricated torque specs for a bolted joint the same diameter and pitch of the tenon threads are on the order of 600 lb-ft, so torquing your barrel to 100-150 lb-ft is nothing to worry about in regards to the threads.

Biggest issue tightening a barrel on an action is workholding without damaging the parts or having the barrel slip in the barrel vise. In the case of the CDG the specified 150 lb-ft max torque is limited by what the action wrench and lugs in the action can take before deforming, not what the threads can take before experiencing plastic deformation.

Tightening the barrel enough to induce some elastic deformation will always be the most reliable and secure joint over a wide range of load cases compared to just snug. A bit of plastic deformation is even more secure, but nobody would buy torque to yield barrels or actions.

 

[4O6shootist]

My apologies to the op for derailing this thread on barrel torque!

 

[CK1.0]

I use 80ft/lbs with my Origin since it says ".223-.308 75-85ft/lbs" on the Zermatt action wrench (picked middle of the range). I've swapped barrels ~4-5 times and the locating pin on my lug looks the same as when new. I haven't experienced any difference with the Origin's pinned-lug as compared to actions I've swapped barrels with that have integral lugs.

That said, 80ft/lbs seems a little excessive... I always nearly shit a little every time I break it loose... even with plenty of copper anti-seize, it always requires a cheater-bar.

Next time I swap barrels I'm going to try more like 40ft/lbs...

 

[kthomas]

Don't talk to Mike at Tacops, think they go loco with 200# or something like that.

I think 500#.

But it's not typical R700 threads.

 

[kthomas]

200 lb-ft is absolutely nothing for the diameter and pitch of the tenon threads, even if the barrel is softer than a regular bolt.

Lubricated torque specs for a bolted joint the same diameter and pitch of the tenon threads are on the order of 600 lb-ft, so torquing your barrel to 100-150 lb-ft is nothing to worry about in regards to the threads.

Biggest issue tightening a barrel on an action is workholding without damaging the parts or having the barrel slip in the barrel vise. In the case of the CDG the specified 150 lb-ft max torque is limited by what the action wrench and lugs in the action can take before deforming, not what the threads can take before experiencing plastic deformation.

Tightening the barrel enough to induce some elastic deformation will always be the most reliable and secure joint over a wide range of load cases compared to just snug. A bit of plastic deformation is even more secure, but nobody would buy torque to yield barrels or actions.

This.

100lb of torque is nothing for those threads.

Honestly it doesn't really matter though. Torque it to 20#. Or 150#. Just be consistent.

 

[kthomas]

I use 80ft/lbs with my Origin since it says ".223-.308 75-85ft/lbs" on the Zermatt action wrench (picked middle of the range). I've swapped barrels ~4-5 times and the locating pin on my lug looks the same as when new. I haven't experienced any difference with the Origin's pinned-lug as compared to actions I've swapped barrels with that have integral lugs.

That said, 80ft/lbs seems a little excessive... I always nearly shit a little every time I break it loose... even with plenty of copper anti-seize, it always requires a cheater-bar.

Next time I swap barrels I'm going to try more like 40ft/lbs...

You need a cheater bar on 80#???

I have no problem taking my Mausingfield barrels off torqued to 100#, with a CDI torque wrench.

I don't think 40# will be a problem though.

 

[CK1.0]

You need a cheater bar on 80#???

I have no problem taking my Mausingfield barrels off torqued to 100#, with a CDI torque wrench.

I don't think 40# will be a problem though.

Yeah, I don’t have a very big ratchet for breaking it loose (~12”)…I only use the torque wrench, which is larger, to tighten it up (so I don’t fuck up the torque wrench) lol.

 

[Rob01]

I don't even think you need to be consistent. The gun doesn't appear to know if it's torqued to 34 or 45 ft/lbs. Hasn't made any effect on POI or accuracy. Truth be told, I don't even use a torque wrench anymore. Just a crescent wrench.

Yup. When that shoulder of the barrel hits the recoil lug/action then you are not compressing the metal in either with more force. As long as it's tight enough not to come loose during firing it will be fine. I started going less also as it's easier to pop off later.

 

[kthomas]

I don't even think you need to be consistent. The gun doesn't appear to know if it's torqued to 34 or 45 ft/lbs. Hasn't made any effect on POI or accuracy. Truth be told, I don't even use a torque wrench anymore. Just a crescent wrench.

Yeah that's probably true.

I just like being consistent because it's an easy thing to control. But I have changed my torque from 100 ft-lbs to 75, with no perceivable differences.

There's probably no real differences, and BR shooters just spin their barrels on by hand, allegedly.

 

[4O6shootist]

Yeah that's probably true.

I just like being consistent because it's an easy thing to control. But I have changed my torque from 100 ft-lbs to 75, with no perceivable differences.

There's probably no real differences, and BR shooters just spin their barrels on by hand, allegedly.

Left hand twist would always be applying make up trq to a barrel lol just go handy tight!

 

[moonstalanda]

anybody know if you can get right hand left port with the CDG?

 

[ABC1000]

Which one is better? I don't think either one is significantly better than the other. They are both fantastic. It's been asked already I'm sure... how soon do you want to be shooting? If sooner is the answer, get the Origin. There are several companies that have it in stock. I just ordered my second Origin the friday before Memorial Day weekend from Paul at Evolved Ballistics and had it in my hands the next week. Since you're a veteran, ask him and he'll give you a great price. I'm not affiliated, but a very satisfied customer.
View attachment 8161218

+1 for satisfied customer if Paul.