Rifle Scopes Zero Compromise Optic update

[MarinePMI]

I understand all of that. But to say that the customer doesn't have a right to be upset when the company publishes a ship date, takes money, and then misses that ship date by a mile is patently insane, IMHO. Of course the customer has a right to be upset.

If the big change here is that companies stop publishing dates, then that's a big win IMHO. Why would anybody be against companies deciding to withhold info that isn't correct anyway? There's no reason to publish dates that are wrong all the time. If people want info that doesn't exist, that's on them. If companies make promises and aren't even close to keeping them, the customer has every right to be upset and it is 100% on the company.

Sure you can be upset. Do you have the right to be upset? Maybe. Disappointed, certainly. That doesn't mean, however, that it gives you a "right" or justification to bash vendors on a public forum. At least, not without repercussions.

Not publishing dates is not a big win, because as @Lowlight mentioned, then folks get upset because they purchase something, not realizing that a newer, more innovative product is about to be released.

Furthermore, vendors ceasing interactions with users due to this, is a big fat LOSE, for both them and us.

One of the greatest assets this site has had in the past was its direct contact with vendors. @Delta Hotel (Vortex), @Birddog6424 (Burris), @Kasey (B&T), @DocUSMCRetired (Kestrel) are all vendor reps that have ceased or limited (drastically) their participation on these forums over the past few years, mainly due to the lose/lose position it has put them in wrt social media. It puts them on the horizon, and makes them easy targets to attacks and disgruntlement that they can not answer to, due to business or legal reasons.

My point it this: You want to be upset? Fine, be upset. But remember, when you go after the vendors here publicly, you lessen the Hide. When vendors feel they can't interact with users, it lessens the value of the Hide to all the members here and to those who are interested in getting into this discipline.

Honestly, I am living in a glass house myself, and have been thinking about this a lot, since I have busted AB's balls pretty harshly in some cases. I made this post, because I too am guilty of this, and try to remind myself of the above written thoughts, when I feel the urge to go post a rant. Sometimes (embarrassingly) I'm not successful in taking my own medicine. I try to remind myself when I post it's not about me, it's about what's good for the Hide and the community.

Maybe this post will make others think about that as well...

JMTCW...

 

[Fig]

That was very adult and thoughtful...for a Marine.

 

[MarinePMI]

That was very adult and thoughtful...for a Marine.

Yeah, every once and awhile, I tilt my head the right way, and the one brain cell collides with the other one...creating some interesting thoughts.

 

[nick338]

How much of your money does ZCOMP have?

I understand all of that. But to say that the customer doesn't have a right to be upset when the company publishes a ship date, takes money, and then misses that ship date by a mile is patently insane, IMHO. Of course the customer has a right to be upset.

If the big change here is that companies stop publishing dates, then that's a big win IMHO. Why would anybody be against companies deciding to withhold info that isn't correct anyway? There's no reason to publish dates that are wrong all the time. If people want info that doesn't exist, that's on them. If companies make promises and aren't even close to keeping them, the customer has every right to be upset and it is 100% on the company.

 

[Fig]

If they broke into my house and stole my money I’d be pissed too! Oh wait... You pre-ordered a product off a prototype, a picture, and some marketing (obviously some good marketing). You didn’t give your money to PT Barnum, and your if-come bet is right there on the rail. There’s no question you will get your scope. It will be first run, and it may not be perfection, but you’ll be FIRST. In the end that’s what your really paying for by pre-ordering. Who are you actually pissed at?

 

[christopher.dow]

I understand all of that. But to say that the customer doesn't have a right to be upset when the company publishes a ship date, takes money, and then misses that ship date by a mile is patently insane, IMHO. Of course the customer has a right to be upset.

The key phrase here is, “takes money”. Did ZCO take anyone’s money? Did Mile High? Did CS Tactical? I would be very surprised. In fact, I bet the only money ZCO has received is from their investors. Most people in product development do not want or need the added stress of knowing that people have actually paid to buy something they haven’t built yet.

The typical preorder/backorder process is to capture what is equivalent to a reservation with a card number, then charge the card when the shipping label is created(*). It is very rare for the card to actually be charged and even more rare for the original equipment manufacturer to see that money before they have shipped to the distributor or retailer.

So, unless someone has actually been charged, I see no cause for actual grievance here, and if they have, I still don’t see a lot of cause due to reasons laid out very well by @Lowlight & @koshin. Frank has explained the effect of SHOT policies has on this process. There are very good reasons why new companies need to announce early. The most important one is to generate demand for the investment they will need to move from design/prototype to production. How well they do that can have a very important effect on the compay’s capitalization, which in turn can drastically affect the company culture and how well the people across the board (especially the worker bees) in the company are compensated for their efforts.

*: if you see a long delay between label creation/card charge and actual shipping, beware. That can be a sign of a company in financial trouble who’s borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

 

[hk dave]

I don’t get it. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

There are so many amazing scopes out there. Get one of those.

 

[WVHick]

What a bunch of whiny bitches

 

[ForgeValley]

What a bunch of whiny bitches

 

[Conrad]

I don’t think ZCO has done anything wrong. Think of the time and money it took just to get a product they were willing to show at SHOT. At that point they would probably want to gauge interest a bit and there is probably some needed motivation for them too.

At that point if you’re interested and you want it first you pony up and wait. Their radio silence has been a lot easier to deal with I think than a company that says 4 more months, 2 more moths, almost there, oh wait it’s gonna be a while, that messes with people more in my opinion.

 

[TheMammoth]

They stated their goals at the onset, I think everyone understood that it was lofty and they threw down a hell of an entrance. If they don't fire on all cylinders right out of the gate it will tarnish their potential a LOT more than being late to market. Everyone angry about the time frame will disappear if these things live up to the hype ZCO generated at announcement.

I wouldn't release the GD things either until I was 110% certain that every single shipped unit from the first release was absolutely perfect.

I can wait for mine, every single person who drops out probably puts me closer to getting mine so whatever, lol.

 

[ND Precision Rifle]

I had to wait for one of those stupid Hudson 9s that took almost a full year after their date to be released.

I’m use to waiting. And being patient.

I’ll wait until all ththe pre orders are fulfilled the. I’ll buy one that I know will be shipped that day.

 

[patriot07]

Sure you can be upset. Do you have the right to be upset? Maybe. Disappointed, certainly. That doesn't mean, however, that it gives you a "right" or justification to bash vendors on a public forum. At least, not without repercussions.

Not publishing dates is not a big win, because as @Lowlight mentioned, then folks get upset because they purchase something, not realizing that a newer, more innovative product is about to be released.

Furthermore, vendors ceasing interactions with users due to this, is a big fat LOSE, for both them and us.

One of the greatest assets this site has had in the past was its direct contact with vendors. @Delta Hotel (Vortex), @Birddog6424 (Burris), @Kasey (B&T), @DocUSMCRetired (Kestrel) are all vendor reps that have ceased or limited (drastically) their participation on these forums over the past few years, mainly due to the lose/lose position it has put them in wrt social media. It puts them on the horizon, and makes them easy targets to attacks and disgruntlement that they can not answer to, due to business or legal reasons.

My point it this: You want to be upset? Fine, be upset. But remember, when you go after the vendors here publicly, you lessen the Hide. When vendors feel they can't interact with users, it lessens the value of the Hide to all the members here and to those who are interested in getting into this discipline.

Honestly, I am living in a glass house myself, and have been thinking about this a lot, since I have busted AB's balls pretty harshly in some cases. I made this post, because I too am guilty of this, and try to remind myself of the above written thoughts, when I feel the urge to go post a rant. Sometimes (embarrassingly) I'm not successful in taking my own medicine. I try to remind myself when I post it's not about me, it's about what's good for the Hide and the community.

Maybe this post will make others think about that as well...

JMTCW...

Thanks for the post.

Look, I have no dog in this fight. I just find it incredibly hypocritical for anyone to blame the customer when a manufacturer sells something to a customer with an expected performance, expected price, and expected ship date and then they don't meet that date or anything close to it. The rest of this is water under the bridge with more blaming customers for manufacturers not being able to provide info, AB being busted for defending other manufacturers, whatever. If manufacturers want to stay completely off forums because they're not confident in the info they could provide, then that's on them. This is 2018 and people expect to be in the know. I think most folks are reasonable and would absolutely understand a, "We don't have an expected date yet" answer. But to go out and give a date and take money and then blame customers for being upset publicly or privately when the date is missed is patently insane. We literally crucify optics planet for doing that exact thing here. I realize one is product development and one is retail inventory, but the basic premise is the same and when the manufacturer is providing dates, everyone assumes the product is ready to roll.

I'm on a number of forums - never seen anything like this where customers are blamed for manufacturers making promises and then not living up to them. I'm not sure what it is about the high-end firearms industry that breeds this culture, but it's pretty wild from an outsider looking in.

 

[patriot07]

I don’t get it. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

There are so many amazing scopes out there. Get one of those.

I get that. What I don't get is those that criticize customers for the situation. Insane.

 

[nick338]

Nope, we are criticizing the customers that are whining ABOUT the situation. Big difference.

Shoot more, whine less.

And stop putting words into people's mouths. When did ZCOMP ever PROMISE a release? If you're a little late to the party it's called the research and development, testing, and approval for release and it almost never happens when tentative dates are announced. Anyone involved in military contracts knows this all too well, but it happens every day in the civilian sector as well. Get over it.

What's insane is hearing what you want to hear and then stomping your feet up and down when it doesn't happen.

I get that. What I don't get is those that criticize customers for the situation. Insane.

 

[patriot07]

Nope, we are criticizing the customers that are whining ABOUT the situation. Big difference.

Shoot more, whine less.

And stop putting words into people's mouths. When did ZCOMP ever PROMISE a release? If you're a little late to the party it's called the research and development, testing, and approval for release and it almost never happens when tentative dates are announced. Anyone involved in military contracts knows this all too well, but it happens every day in the civilian sector as well. Get over it.

What's insane is hearing what you want to hear and then stomping your feet up and down when it doesn't happen.

Wasn't there a picture of a facebook post saying september on this thread? I think it was also posted on SH somewhere?

So now you're disputing that the date was ever put out there? Or are you saying that even if it was, customers have no right to be upset? Or both?

My day job is a mechanical engineer for a defense contractor. You think I don't know about product development or deadlines...you couldn't be further off base. What I also know is that when we promise dates to our customers, we make them or our replacements will do better next time. Yes, it's really that simple. It's called accountability, honesty, and competency. If we don't know what date we can meet, we're honest about that. We give a date when we have confidence in it, and never before.

 

[hk dave]

I recall what they said about the initial estimated release date.

Then “we” as in SH collectively said, “don’t F this up. Do not let it be released until it is damn well ready because the fallout from a v1, v2, v3 will put you out of business.” Far as I’m concerned, they listened.

They want to compete with the likes of TT, TT gives no Fs about how long anything takes. They want perfection. If ZCO is chasing the same mindset, they shouldn’t release an unfinished product imo.

I waited 3 years for my JAE 700. Figure I can wait another year for the ZCO.

I get that someone was complaining about the release date being missed, but come on, it’s not like they took his money.

 

[hk dave]

Whoever complained about the release date, my suggestion is get something else. When the ZCO is released, If it’s all it promises to be, sell what you bought and pickup the ZCO. Think of it as a rental fee.

SH is such that you can get back most of your initial investment... provided you didn’t buy IOR.

 

[alwaywatchyoursix]

I've only preordered anything three times in my life. Once was the Samsung Galaxy S3, the second was the Librem 5 phone, and the third time was the ARC Nucleus.

Each time I knew I was putting money down for something that wasn't actually available yet. I was also painfully aware that I could be in for a world of disappointment if it wasn't what I hoped it would be.

I read that Facebook post as "Hopefully we've got the first ones rolling out in June", but I can understand how someone might think it meant "It'll be in your hands in June" even if that's not what it actually says. At some point or another, every one of us has been distracted by the allure of something new and shiny. Too often, we forget to temper our expectations with a dose of reality, and end up with disappointment. It's definitely happened to me. Fairly certain it's happened to anyone reading this also.

Personally, if I were dropping a few grand on a new offering like these optics, I'd want the manufacturer to err on the side of QC rather than to rush it out to meet some off-the-cuff deadline. At the same time, and especially if I had put any money in on a pre-order/reservation/whatever, I would hope the manufacturer does a good job of managing their customers' expectations, in order to reduce customer disappointment.

Anyways, I look forward to the intial reviews once they actually get these out there.

 

[MarinePMI]

Wasn't there a picture of a facebook post saying september on this thread? I think it was also posted on SH somewhere?

So now you're disputing that the date was ever put out there? Or are you saying that even if it was, customers have no right to be upset? Or both?

My day job is a mechanical engineer for a defense contractor. You think I don't know about product development or deadlines...you couldn't be further off base. What I also know is that when we promise dates to our customers, we make them or our replacements will do better next time. Yes, it's really that simple. It's called accountability, honesty, and competency. If we don't know what date we can meet, we're honest about that. We give a date when we have confidence in it, and never before.

I think it has already been made clear that people may have a right or justification to be upset. That is not the point of this discussion. The point is, do the users have aright to trash a vendor on a public forum, when the dates thta was given was either an implicit estimate, or an implied one (base don the fact that it is a new product, in R&D/T&E and has nor been finalized yet).

If you're a defense ME, then you should already know that meeting timelines is not always feasible. Also, you should know that while you may be honest and accountable to your customer (Program office), they are not always completely forthcoming to their user base...for the same reasons vendors here are dealing with; managing expectations, weighed against delivery timelines.

Like I said, no one is saying people can't be upset, but bashing vendors solves nothing. It doesn't speed up time, make the products appear faster and impacts free and open dialogue between vendors and users.

Do you get this?

 

[TheMammoth]

bashing vendors solves nothing. It doesn't speed up time, make the products appear faster and impacts free and open dialogue between vendors and users.

Do you get this?

Anyone that remembers the NightForce shit show back in the day shouldn't need to be reminded of this, eh?

I like having so many vendors here and I really hope we don't start chasing them off again.

 

[Basher]

I think it has already been made clear that people may have a right or justification to be upset. That is not the point of this discussion. The point is, do the users have aright to trash a vendor on a public forum, when the dates thta was given was either an implicit estimate, or an implied one (base don the fact that it is a new product, in R&D/T&E and has nor been finalized yet).

If you're a defense ME, then you should already know that meeting timelines is not always feasible. Also, you should know that while you may be honest and accountable to your customer (Program office), they are not always completely forthcoming to their user base...for the same reasons vendors here are dealing with; managing expectations, weighed against delivery timelines.

Like I said, no one is saying people can't be upset, but bashing vendors solves nothing. It doesn't speed up time, make the products appear faster and impacts free and open dialogue between vendors and users.

Do you get this?

I have to side with this. As an ME for a defense contractor, you guys get hired on to a contract and have obligations, expectations, and dealines to meet, yes. However, ZCO is NOT a contracted company here. They're a startup, trying to bring an immensely precise and intricate device to market. You can't "fire" them if they don't meet your expectations. This is a different dynamic than what you're used to. As my old chemistry teacher would say, you may be in the right neighborhood, but you ain't at the right house!

I get it. People put down money. But I don't see anywhere that shows ZCO entered a binding legal contract with anyone that certain deadlines would be met. They gave a ballpark estimate for anticipated availability, nothing more. If someone got in on the pre-sale, they did so of their own free will and choice, and they're free to cancel that at any time. They get ALL of their money back, and they can go buy something else. Aside from some personal angst due to impatience, the customer is out nothing.

I, also, have no dog in this fight, as I haven't (as yet) put down a deposit for one. However, I've been immensely interested in ZCO since I first heard of them, hence why I started the original thread on them. I think their product looks AMAZING, and I sincerely hope it exceeds everyone's expectations. I'd love to throw one on my AI when I can scrounge up the funds for it. But I'd MUCH rather see them work everything out before releasing them, even if it means waiting longer. All this whining and moaning is only going to turn manufacturers off of dealing directly with the public on open forums like this, and honestly, that's not what I want, especially not over something as silly as a delay on release! To me, threads like this have the potential to cost us far more than they can gain us, if the manufacturers decide they're not interested in dealing with all this drama...

 

[WB300]

That was deep Fig.

 

[koshkin]

Can't believe this argument is still going on. Can we all sit back, relax and wait until ZCO scopes make it out into the field?

ILya

 

[WVHick]

Can't believe this argument is still going on. Can we all sit back, relax and wait until ZCO scopes make it out into the field?

ILya

Nope. Some people’s kids just need to bitch about anything. I blame the parents.

 

[Renomd]

This release will be epic I’ll for sure be doing a direct review comparison vs the tangent 5-25 and NF atacr 7-35.

 

[nick338]

Couldn't be further off base huh? Tell that to Lockheed Martin with the 2 most delayed, over-budget projects in history.

You think I don't know about product development or deadlines...you couldn't be further off base. What I also know is that when we promise dates to our customers, we make them or our replacements will do better next time. Yes, it's really that simple. It's called accountability, honesty, and competency. If we don't know what date we can meet, we're honest about that. We give a date when we have confidence in it, and never before.

 

[patriot07]

Can't believe this argument is still going on. Can we all sit back, relax and wait until ZCO scopes make it out into the field?

ILya

I’m on board with this. No reason to continue arguing about a scope before it even comes out.

To all the others - my beef was with customers being blamed for being upset. I don’t personally care about the rest. I hope ZCO puts out an awesome scope and I’m sure they’re working hard to do it as fast as possible.

 

[Squibbler]

This release will be epic I’ll for sure be doing a direct review comparison vs the tangent 5-25 and NF atacr 7-35.

 

[Basher]

View attachment 6943759

I believe the proper spelling/pronunciation is "YYUUUUGGGEE!"

 

[CSTactical]

 

[Yerman]

I've been hesitant to post this because I don't want to stir anything up here, but I'm just curious if there are any in the wild yet or if there is any word on these shipping any time soon?

 

[gebhardt02]

Still putting the first batch together, trying to get as many completed as we can. Shouldn't be much longer.

 

[CSTactical]

Still putting the first batch together, trying to get as many completed as we can. Shouldn't be much longer.

 

[scocoabeach]

I've been hesitant to post this because I don't want to stir anything up here, but I'm just curious if there are any in the wild yet or if there is any word on these shipping any time soon?

Glad you asked. I was wondering as well. Looking forward to reviews.

 

[goatboy]

I think the entire community is looking forward to getting these on rifles and seeing how they operate. Any frustration is born of the opportunity cost of waiting for the promised specs. But it's important to remember that it's the interest/desire in those specs that starts the whole process, so let's give ZCO the chance to not make compromises.....

 

[InkedIan]

So this is a genuine question here..... I don't get on the discussions much any more. What exactly are the features that really set this scope apart? I went on the website and it had some great sales wording but nothing really stood out as some new great innovation.

 

[gebhardt02]

It may not be any ONE specific thing that sets us apart, but a combination. We are offering a feature set that is near comprehensive for what shooters have been looking for; locking turrets, Return 2 Zero that offers 0.5 mil below, large adjustment range (35 mils elevation/20 mils windage), easy reset turrets and R2Z, low profile and wide diameter turrets with 15 mils in one rotation with wider spaced clicks, larger engraving for easier readability, locking diopter, nice mil based reticles with 0.2 mil indications throughout and floating dot, advanced illumination system offering user selectable red or green, and an optical performance that we firmly believe will be the best in the industry. We weren't trying to reinvent a new scope or technology, just provide a superior product with a feature set and performance at the very top of the industry.

We are very excited to get these out "in the wild" but are doing our due diligence in assembly, testing, and QC before anything ships out. Again, we appreciate everybody's patience, we are working as hard as we can and apologize for the delays.

 

[ForgeValley]

Nice, didn't know they would have red and green illum selectable.

 

[Magnetic]

There are two of these on the shelf at one of my local shops, so they must be pre-production models? I didn't pay any attention to them because I'd never heard of ZCO. I'm going to go back today and check them out.

 

[Basher]

There are two of these on the shelf at one of my local shops, so they must be pre-production models? I didn't pay any attention to them because I'd never heard of ZCO. I'm going to go back today and check them out.

Not likely. I'm guessing you have them confused with someone else.

As for getting these out, take your time, guys. I'd much rather these be perfect than released tomorrow!

 

[Renomd]

There are two of these on the shelf at one of my local shops, so they must be pre-production models? I didn't pay any attention to them because I'd never heard of ZCO. I'm going to go back today and check them out.

Hmm I’m with basher these are not out yet. Also I noticed this is your first post and you joined 9/25/18. Welcome... also in case you didn’t know gebhardt is nick gebhardt who actually works for zco

 

[InkedIan]

It may not be any ONE specific thing that sets us apart, but a combination. We are offering a feature set that is near comprehensive for what shooters have been looking for; locking turrets, Return 2 Zero that offers 0.5 mil below, large adjustment range (35 mils elevation/20 mils windage), easy reset turrets and R2Z, low profile and wide diameter turrets with 15 mils in one rotation with wider spaced clicks, larger engraving for easier readability, locking diopter, nice mil based reticles with 0.2 mil indications throughout and floating dot, advanced illumination system offering user selectable red or green, and an optical performance that we firmly believe will be the best in the industry. We weren't trying to reinvent a new scope or technology, just provide a superior product with a feature set and performance at the very top of the industry.

We are very excited to get these out "in the wild" but are doing our due diligence in assembly, testing, and QC before anything ships out. Again, we appreciate everybody's patience, we are working as hard as we can and apologize for the delays.

I like features for sure but my (and I believe anyone who shoots competitively) main concern is overall reliability. Zero retention, accurate click values and tracking, tube strength, true water proofing, generous eye box, turret knob strength, etc. These are issues that most high end optics have had at one point or another. Are you guys doing anything different in those aspects to set your scope apart from the rest?

 

[The King]

I think the entire community is looking forward to getting these on rifles and seeing how they operate. Any frustration is born of the opportunity cost of waiting for the promised specs. But it's important to remember that it's the interest/desire in those specs that starts the whole process, so let's give ZCO the chance to not make compromises.....

I’m not. Frankly. Any new optic i buy is going to have to do something titanically different, like Revic or some sort of Nightforce made version of the ATN Xsight.

This whole conversation reminds me of night vision - eventually they moved to a composite approach called “figure of merit”.

If the FOM/$ ratio is epic then maybe i’ll move on it, but i sure do have a hard time pulling the trigger on a Tangent Theta when the FOM is 2000 and the $ is 4000 resulting in a ratio of 1:2, and a nightforce has a FOM of 1800 and is $2500.

 

[gebhardt02]

InkedIan, yes, we have some advancements in our scope construction as well as overall engineering. Most all of this information is available about our products on the web site. From the Center Lock System on the lenses to some extra latitude internally with our main tube to the click mechanism we showed and discussed at SHOT. Our engineering and design team have been in the high end rifle scope business a long time, so we are using these experiences to make sure our designs meet or exceed all aspects you are asking about. If you have some free time, please read through the web site info again, we discuss the build aspects in pretty good detail.

 

[Fig]

I think you ought to compromise...just a little...

 

[Magnetic]

Not likely. I'm guessing you have them confused with someone else.

Hmm I’m with basher these are not out yet. Also I noticed this is your first post and you joined 9/25/18. Welcome... also in case you didn’t know gebhardt is nick gebhardt who actually works for zco

I went back today at lunch. You are right, it was a Valdata sitting on box labeled GPO and not ZCO. Sorry about that.

 

[InkedIan]

InkedIan, yes, we have some advancements in our scope construction as well as overall engineering. Most all of this information is available about our products on the web site. From the Center Lock System on the lenses to some extra latitude internally with our main tube to the click mechanism we showed and discussed at SHOT. Our engineering and design team have been in the high end rifle scope business a long time, so we are using these experiences to make sure our designs meet or exceed all aspects you are asking about. If you have some free time, please read through the web site info again, we discuss the build aspects in pretty good detail.

Thanks for the reply and your time. The 6.5 guys video with you was pretty informative also. Looking forward to checking one out!

 

[goatboy]

I’m not. Frankly. Any new optic i buy is going to have to do something titanically different, like Revic or some sort of Nightforce made version of the ATN Xsight.

This whole conversation reminds me of night vision - eventually they moved to a composite approach called “figure of merit”.

If the FOM/$ ratio is epic then maybe i’ll move on it, but i sure do have a hard time pulling the trigger on a Tangent Theta when the FOM is 2000 and the $ is 4000 resulting in a ratio of 1:2, and a nightforce has a FOM of 1800 and is $2500.

King - unlike FOM in NV, there isn't an objective measure for tracking, optical clarity, reticle design, etc. in scopes, so there isn't a $/metric value you can assign.

I have nothing to do with ZCO but have been involved in tech development in the medical field for years. The figure of merit for a ZCO, or other scope, is going to be written in user feedback and feel on forums like this and others. Requiring titanically different performance seems too high a bar.

However, your last comment does hit a truth - that being that any new product has to offer a relative value proposition. Perhaps the erector mechanism in the 36 mm tube works better, perhaps the glass has a different coating that is more color true. I have no idea, but I'm hoping that the composite product is a net add.

Obviously, I cannot speak for the community that we are looking for this particular product. But, at the same time, it seems a common theme that we're all looking for improvements in ourselves, our equipment and our performance.

 

[bjay]

What's the size on center dot?