Im a fan of 36/300 too. I’ve never measure the offsets at range but generally speaking, it works as intended. 7 yards and in is just a height over bore regardless of optic.
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Zero question for AR15
- Thread starter KM1
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Im a fan of 36/300 too. I’ve never measure the offsets at range but generally speaking, it works as intended. 7 yards and in is just a height over bore regardless of optic.
Ok...after reading, and rereading all the posts. Then doing some more reading on several links, including lots of info by Molon...and some others here:
www.everydaymarksman.co
www.everydaymarksman.co
.
I decided to take a shot at one of those ballistic calculators, I used this one:
www.shooterscalculator.com
My original goal was to use a zero that gave me this, "What zeroing scheme produces the smallest absolute values for the deviations of the points of impact from the point of aim, over the distance that we reasonably expect to engage a human target in our intended usage?" from about 0 - 110+yds (maybe 150max). I also wanted to keep that deviation of less than 1," up or down, over the longest amount of yardage within that 0 - 110+ range. The data I plugged into that above calculator was as follows:
.223 Remington Speer Gold Dot 62grn SP
2700fps
3.715 Sight Ht.
Over 250yds @ 10yd increments
For 100yd Zero & 50yd zero
What I found, if I did this right, is in the following pdf's
What I found MOST interesting is that the 50yd zero only gave me 3 instances where the bullet was within that less than 1," up or down, ribbon or deviation through the whole 0 - 250yd range I specified...while the 100yd zero gave me 12 instances where the bullet was within that less than 1," up or down, ribbon or deviation. Taking it just within my original range of 0 - 110+yds...it gave me about 6 (or 7) instances.
So with a 100yd zero I only have a slight hold over from 0 - 50yds with nothing else to think about other than point and shoot to about 170yds (beyond my original objective). While the 50yds zero I not only have a slight hold over from 0 - 30yds, but also a hold under from about 70 - well over 170yds. Two things vs one. This is with the understanding that I am using a pretty narrow band of deviation.
Very interesting!!!
Zen of the 100 Meter Zero
The topic of zeroing comes up quite frequently, and to ease explaination I wrote the following to more easily illustrate my preference and the reasons why. You might want to take a look at Molon's thread about zeroing: AR-15 Zeros and Trajectories to get better acquainted with the nuances...
www.m4carbine.net
Barrel Length, Trajectory, and Learning Your Zero - Everyday Marksman
There's a lot of engineering voodoo that goes into making a rifle work well and fire accurately. The length of a rifle's barrel and how it affects the velocity of the bullet is one of those major factors. In this post, I explain a bit of the physics involved here. But the real meat of the post...
www.everydaymarksman.co
Make faster Hits and Improve Marksmanship with Your Point Blank Zero
The point blank zero, also called maximum point blank range, or battlesight zero, is a tool for achieving faster hits on target. But it takes some math...
www.everydaymarksman.co
I decided to take a shot at one of those ballistic calculators, I used this one:
ShootersCalculator.com | 223 Remington Gold Dot 62 grn SP
Calculates the ballistic trajectory of a bullet fired from a rifle, handgun or other firearm. Produces a ballistic trajectory chart and table that shows the drop, velocity, kinetic energy, windage, and trajectory of a bullet.
My original goal was to use a zero that gave me this, "What zeroing scheme produces the smallest absolute values for the deviations of the points of impact from the point of aim, over the distance that we reasonably expect to engage a human target in our intended usage?" from about 0 - 110+yds (maybe 150max). I also wanted to keep that deviation of less than 1," up or down, over the longest amount of yardage within that 0 - 110+ range. The data I plugged into that above calculator was as follows:
.223 Remington Speer Gold Dot 62grn SP
2700fps
3.715 Sight Ht.
Over 250yds @ 10yd increments
For 100yd Zero & 50yd zero
What I found, if I did this right, is in the following pdf's
What I found MOST interesting is that the 50yd zero only gave me 3 instances where the bullet was within that less than 1," up or down, ribbon or deviation through the whole 0 - 250yd range I specified...while the 100yd zero gave me 12 instances where the bullet was within that less than 1," up or down, ribbon or deviation. Taking it just within my original range of 0 - 110+yds...it gave me about 6 (or 7) instances.
So with a 100yd zero I only have a slight hold over from 0 - 50yds with nothing else to think about other than point and shoot to about 170yds (beyond my original objective). While the 50yds zero I not only have a slight hold over from 0 - 30yds, but also a hold under from about 70 - well over 170yds. Two things vs one. This is with the understanding that I am using a pretty narrow band of deviation.
Very interesting!!!
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Dude, your numbers are FUBAR.
Do yourself a favor and spend less time on Google and more time at the range actually shooting using different zeroing schemes to gain a better understanding of just what a battle-sight zero is and how to use one in a "mainly self defense" situation.
....
The way I came to a better comprehend my ballistics was. Trial & error + or - 2 years.
Record data, always record data. Load, bi-pod / tri-pod / off hand / bench. Caffeine consumption. Then I came back to the load again. Find your favorable load and stick with it, "so important". 90% of my hunting shots are from the prone when I stick to basic fundamentals my results are favorable. This site is ripe with talent. When I screw up a shot its 99% of the time is me & a failure of my discipline.
Record data, always record data. Load, bi-pod / tri-pod / off hand / bench. Caffeine consumption. Then I came back to the load again. Find your favorable load and stick with it, "so important". 90% of my hunting shots are from the prone when I stick to basic fundamentals my results are favorable. This site is ripe with talent. When I screw up a shot its 99% of the time is me & a failure of my discipline.
Dude, your numbers are FUBAR.
Do yourself a favor and spend less time on Google and more time at the range actually shooting using different zeroing schemes to gain a better understanding of just what a battle-sight zero is and how to use one in a "mainly self defense" situation.
....
Of course....I am aware of the difference between practice/training and simply reading and playing with numbers.
However, I just plugged in these numbers in that calculator and it spit that out. If you could explain why these numbers are FUBAR that would be appreciated.
The range I'm at is only has 25yds....that will make things most difficult.
Again....I'm brand new at this so just learning. Handguns and their use is what I'm familiar with. Taking my first steps here so just reading all I can to gain some foundational understanding. Then will take it to the range and do as you suggest. At least to test out my load at a 25yd range. Don't even know of anything longer to go to in my area...yet.
I think your closest solution will be a point blank zero, which computes differently for each BC and MV. So It's not just about zero distances . But MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) is going to be your better solution.
Point Blank Range Calculator.
The thing about calculators is that they make assumptions, and seldom even mention key things like Marksmanship skill and random human aiming errors, which are often a situational issue. Asking for a 2" height variance assumes that your shooting skills can deliver infinite numbers of shots with Zero error. None of us can, and for reasons like that, we need to accept that some simplistic solutions just may be as reasonable as the magnificently calculated ones.
Years ago, I tried a simplistic solution. I zeroed my deer rifle at 75yd. Never missed deer yet out to 150yd, which was a long shot in the Upstate NY woods.
The important questions are more like how big the kill zone is, whether you can reliably hit it, assuming a perfect zero, and how far out you can manage that.
Minute of Venison...
Zero 1" to 1 1/2" low at 25, then give it some practice at longer distances; being prepared to adjust as experience suggests. We called that "Ballparking".
Another question might be about how cool is one's head when there's incoming fire. In 'Nam, I discovered that's about 90% of the firefight. Never got hit, but that was always mostly about luck. Gut it out.
One more might be whether you want to engage at such longer distances. Practical shooting has to be, like..., practical.
Greg
Point Blank Range Calculator.
The thing about calculators is that they make assumptions, and seldom even mention key things like Marksmanship skill and random human aiming errors, which are often a situational issue. Asking for a 2" height variance assumes that your shooting skills can deliver infinite numbers of shots with Zero error. None of us can, and for reasons like that, we need to accept that some simplistic solutions just may be as reasonable as the magnificently calculated ones.
Years ago, I tried a simplistic solution. I zeroed my deer rifle at 75yd. Never missed deer yet out to 150yd, which was a long shot in the Upstate NY woods.
The important questions are more like how big the kill zone is, whether you can reliably hit it, assuming a perfect zero, and how far out you can manage that.
Minute of Venison...
Zero 1" to 1 1/2" low at 25, then give it some practice at longer distances; being prepared to adjust as experience suggests. We called that "Ballparking".
Another question might be about how cool is one's head when there's incoming fire. In 'Nam, I discovered that's about 90% of the firefight. Never got hit, but that was always mostly about luck. Gut it out.
One more might be whether you want to engage at such longer distances. Practical shooting has to be, like..., practical.
Greg
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Hey thanks....great explanation.
So you, through time and trial and error, eventually decided on a 75 zero which worked best for your purposes?
I was simply trying to decide on a starting point...keeping in mind the main purpose of the rifle and trying to find the most likely zero that would minimize deviation of bullet path in that 0 - 110+ range. Also, was trying to minimize complications of hold overs and/or hold unders. Just a starting point to go from and work from there with actual range practice.
Will likely take some training courses somewhere to help with fundamentals from those with expertise who have been there done that. Helps to shorten the learning curve.
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I tried that MPBR calculator and it came up with the suggestion of sighting in using a 100yd zero also.
Used sight ht of 3.715
Velocity 2700
Coefficient .317
Kept the Drag at G1...don't know if I should have changed that.
Now will have to zero the rifle and see how it actually all plays out on the range....who knows, may not work as I would have hoped.
Again....thanks again for your comments...solid food for thought.
Oops...looking at that again....I may not be using that calculator correctly. That last "sight in at 100yds" doesn't change mo matter what data is put in...hmmmm????
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Everyone in this has had good motivation and offered good advice.
It's what we do. Here's you training course.
MPBR derives lowest allowable impact points (crossing the line of sight going up, and crossing down) based on the velocity, sight height, etc. (all of the inputs on the upper data panel), and the sighting distance is an output, not an input. The upper limit of the MPBR's extent will be the maximum allowable upward vertical dispersion. That will change with any one, or several, or all of the data inputs (I made my living for several decades - 1970 through 1998 - as a computer operator and programmer). Computers don't do their work in a real world, they are 'what if' machinery.
The zeroing aim point is the point location in space where the bullet needs to pass in order to have its trajectory arc within a height range that is within the limits (target size) in its path. That target size is the desired impact/kill zone, usually considered to be the location and extent of vitals. Its size should be reduced in direct relation to the shooter's wobble/natural dispersion zone. I.e, if the vitals are in a zone 8" high, and the wobble zone dispersion at that given distance is 4" high; then the target (what you can realistically hit and score a vital injury) size is 4".
Sight height is determined as the vertical distance between optical center and bore center. (I calculate it as roughly half the diameter of the scope tube, half the diameter of the bolt, and the distance between the two). On an AR, I estimate that the bolt center resides roughly 1 1/4" below the rail height. For irons, the height of the rear sight notch/peep above the rail is the added height in addition to that 1 1/4"-ish to find sight height. I'm guesstimating here, and all of this precision is degraded by whatever real dispersion is in the system.
This is precisely the same kind of math that allows NASA to hit an orbital entry point and vector from a given stationary point on the earth's surface, just a whole lot smaller overall. NASA has the luxury of making mid-course corrections. We don't.
Incidentally, shooting extended ranges, like 600-1000yd, has the wind component as a second, oblique calculation. The winning strategy is to figure the wind as your convenient, but can only be estimated, mid-course correction.
If bullets traveled along a straight line of sight, all of this would be moot. I truth, we must allow for (make that count upon) external forces to bend that actual trajectory and precisely impact/pass through a desired location in three dimensions (distance, drop, drift). In essence, in the real world; every aim point is an offset from the direct line of sight.
But the best that all of this will give you is a starting point, and that starting point really does need to be proven and adjusted. Anyhoo, you have all you need in order to find your working info.
Greg
It's what we do. Here's you training course.
MPBR derives lowest allowable impact points (crossing the line of sight going up, and crossing down) based on the velocity, sight height, etc. (all of the inputs on the upper data panel), and the sighting distance is an output, not an input. The upper limit of the MPBR's extent will be the maximum allowable upward vertical dispersion. That will change with any one, or several, or all of the data inputs (I made my living for several decades - 1970 through 1998 - as a computer operator and programmer). Computers don't do their work in a real world, they are 'what if' machinery.
The zeroing aim point is the point location in space where the bullet needs to pass in order to have its trajectory arc within a height range that is within the limits (target size) in its path. That target size is the desired impact/kill zone, usually considered to be the location and extent of vitals. Its size should be reduced in direct relation to the shooter's wobble/natural dispersion zone. I.e, if the vitals are in a zone 8" high, and the wobble zone dispersion at that given distance is 4" high; then the target (what you can realistically hit and score a vital injury) size is 4".
Sight height is determined as the vertical distance between optical center and bore center. (I calculate it as roughly half the diameter of the scope tube, half the diameter of the bolt, and the distance between the two). On an AR, I estimate that the bolt center resides roughly 1 1/4" below the rail height. For irons, the height of the rear sight notch/peep above the rail is the added height in addition to that 1 1/4"-ish to find sight height. I'm guesstimating here, and all of this precision is degraded by whatever real dispersion is in the system.
This is precisely the same kind of math that allows NASA to hit an orbital entry point and vector from a given stationary point on the earth's surface, just a whole lot smaller overall. NASA has the luxury of making mid-course corrections. We don't.
Incidentally, shooting extended ranges, like 600-1000yd, has the wind component as a second, oblique calculation. The winning strategy is to figure the wind as your convenient, but can only be estimated, mid-course correction.
If bullets traveled along a straight line of sight, all of this would be moot. I truth, we must allow for (make that count upon) external forces to bend that actual trajectory and precisely impact/pass through a desired location in three dimensions (distance, drop, drift). In essence, in the real world; every aim point is an offset from the direct line of sight.
But the best that all of this will give you is a starting point, and that starting point really does need to be proven and adjusted. Anyhoo, you have all you need in order to find your working info.
Greg
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Yes....thanks.
What I really need to do, which has been suggested, is to pick a zero scheme (based on my purpose), sight the rifle at that zero scheme using chosen ammo, and shoot the rifle at various distances within my 25yd range I have available (7, 10, 15, 25) and see where my POA/POI is at those distances.
If those meet the objective I'm seeking, than I'm only good at those distances. Anything beyond that is simply an estimation and cannot be used with any kind of certainty.
I would need to take my accepted zero and find a longer range to test that zero at longer yardage (50, 100, 200, etc.) to see where actual POA/POI is at.
My understanding is that the Eotech sits 3.715" above the bore. I will measure this when I get it and mount it to the rifle.
I will start with a 100 yard zero and adjust from there. If it doesn't give me what I want I can try another zero. I will have to take delivery on the rifle first....still waiting on build. Soon hopefully.
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That's exactly what you need to do. Certainty is an overrated goal. Getting fire on target is a repeatable task.
Someday, study a subject called military musketry. It's a game of numbers.
My above commentary is just an attempt to describe relationships and limits for understanding's sake. Doing a thing is not the same as understanding how and why it works; so trying to extend what you do can benefit from the additional knowledge.
Let me do the overthinking...
Greg
Someday, study a subject called military musketry. It's a game of numbers.
My above commentary is just an attempt to describe relationships and limits for understanding's sake. Doing a thing is not the same as understanding how and why it works; so trying to extend what you do can benefit from the additional knowledge.
Let me do the overthinking...
Greg
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"Let me do the overthinking..."......LOL!!!
I am, however, analytical and detail oriented by nature, so I tend to lean toward "overthinking" at times. Yet...those traits have had there benefit....
"Doing a thing is not the same as understanding how and why it works; so trying to extend what you do can benefit from the additional knowledge.".....So on point here. I learned that a long time ago...during the training pieces of my competitive athletic career...and on into my coaching career. So true. But even though they are interconnected...nothing improves the "doing" better than proper training. It is all ABOUT the PROCESS!!!
Thanks Greg. I might post some pics of what I actually get on those targets at the distances I listed at my range using that 100yd zero. I am truly a novice, a beginner, actual first timer...so those first shots out my rifle will actually be my FIRST shots out of ANY rifle. Handguns I am adept at...rifles... 0 experience (unless you count a shotgun skeet shooting once).
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Agreed. Please do post pictures, and don't be put off by beginner results, we all crawled first. Rifles have reach and can have precision.
But Personal Defense is largely about firepower combined with muscle memory. Beginners do it all the time, but the live ones practice, practice, practice. In 'Nam, an initial firefight was over in the time it took to do a mag dump, volume of fire was crucial, and my police friends all seem to think that, 'The first two end up in the dirt, the rest clear a hallway, and the time for deliberation comes after the combat reload'.
Dunno; I leave cop stuff to the cops. I keep a Ruger American Pistol Pro, and Ruger PC Carbine bedside, both handle the same 17rd magazines, of which I have 'several' containing 124gr HST's. I utterly dread using it ('Nam Memories), and have not done my homework with them anywhere near enough. I have 1000rd of 124gr FMJ that should have been shot several times over by now. I'm just another Joe regarding personal/home defense. I owe it to my family to correct that. Personal/Home Defense, like politics, is an art of the possible; and if you ain't currently proficient, it ain't possible. Thinking it is not enough.
The one time I did interact with police, my Brother and I stood down the instant the Newark NJ PD showed up said, "We got it, kid"; an education in itself. No shots fired, 'Nam had taught me fire discipline.
Athletically, I was very fast afoot before my illnesses and I miss it; but the twenty years past adds ample perspective. My Scouts always won the uphill mile run at summer camp, and they always found me waiting for them just before the the finish line. Pacing. Folks who don't train are sitting ducks; beating them gets embarrassing.
Best fortune. It's like riding bike; but marksmanship is always going to be a perishable skill. Use it, lose it, but not both.
Greg
But Personal Defense is largely about firepower combined with muscle memory. Beginners do it all the time, but the live ones practice, practice, practice. In 'Nam, an initial firefight was over in the time it took to do a mag dump, volume of fire was crucial, and my police friends all seem to think that, 'The first two end up in the dirt, the rest clear a hallway, and the time for deliberation comes after the combat reload'.
Dunno; I leave cop stuff to the cops. I keep a Ruger American Pistol Pro, and Ruger PC Carbine bedside, both handle the same 17rd magazines, of which I have 'several' containing 124gr HST's. I utterly dread using it ('Nam Memories), and have not done my homework with them anywhere near enough. I have 1000rd of 124gr FMJ that should have been shot several times over by now. I'm just another Joe regarding personal/home defense. I owe it to my family to correct that. Personal/Home Defense, like politics, is an art of the possible; and if you ain't currently proficient, it ain't possible. Thinking it is not enough.
The one time I did interact with police, my Brother and I stood down the instant the Newark NJ PD showed up said, "We got it, kid"; an education in itself. No shots fired, 'Nam had taught me fire discipline.
Athletically, I was very fast afoot before my illnesses and I miss it; but the twenty years past adds ample perspective. My Scouts always won the uphill mile run at summer camp, and they always found me waiting for them just before the the finish line. Pacing. Folks who don't train are sitting ducks; beating them gets embarrassing.
Best fortune. It's like riding bike; but marksmanship is always going to be a perishable skill. Use it, lose it, but not both.
Greg
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Will do.
I am pretty good with a handgun. Train 2 to 3 times a month...or I should say practice as "training" would truly incorporate more real world stress and circumstance...NOT plinking holes in a stationary paper 21ft away. SOOOOOO much more involved in a real world setting, pulling a firearm from a CC, firing on a target WHILE they are pointing one back at you, or coming at you with another type of lethal weapon (knife, etc.), and possible movement of the target and/or YOU, and having to put one, likely more, rounds ON TARGET, and NOT arrant rounds that might hit innocents. THAT'S a whole different ball game MANY don't understand.
I get a kick out of people who say..."why didn't the officer shoot him in the leg" in circumstances like that...or an even better one...."Why didn't the officer just shoot the gun out of his hand instead of killing him".....REALLY, I simply can't. Just walk away with jaw dropped and shaking my head.
I had signed up for firearm training at the C.O.D. Homeland Security Center but COVID-19 ended that as the courses were cancelled. I will be taking them as soon as they open back up. Once finished....THEN I plan on doing the same with my new AR15.
Yes, I'm with you. I DREAD ever having to pull my firearm and use it....hope it NEVER happens. NOT something a responsible gun owner would want to have happen....BUT, today.....
My personal attitude, and this is simply my opinion nothing more, if one is going to be a responsible gun owner....one needs to be proficient (especially under stress) at using that firearm. I know people who go out and by a firearm, and have NEVER fired that weapon, keeping it in their house with the idea they might have to use it. This is NUTS to me....even more nuts if one has a CC license and doesn't get some type of training beyond their CC class. Again, just my opinion.
It will be interesting if ANY of my skill set with a handgun will transfer over at ALL. Likely not as the sight picture is so limited with a handgun....PLUS, I am left eye dominant and right handed which posses little issue with a handgun....MUCH more of an issue with a rifle....which I am about find out.
A couple pics of handgun practice, on good days for ya. Keep in mind this is slow fire, trigger controlled, stationary target, seeking solid sight picture....NOT draw from concealed, point and shoot, where the spread does have significant increase over these pics.
Firearm: Sig P229 w/combat sights (Sig XRay) 9mm
Training Ammo: 9mm Speer Lawman 124grn TMJ
Self Defense Ammo: 9mm Federal Premium LE Tactical HST HP (I believe same as you)
First pic is 5 training rounds at 25ft Center Mass
Second pic is 5 training rounds at 25ft...+2 cartilage piercings, LOL.....Head Shots
Once I zero in the rifle I will take my pics of what happened and post them.....unless the paper is empty of holes....than, ah, maybe not....LOL
Attachments
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WOW....I don't know a lot about rifles but 400 with an 11.5 barrel sounds awesome to me. Is this using the MPBR where there is, say, about an 8" spread at 400yds???
Is your Iron's set to the same Zero as your Red Dot? Never mind...I just re-read what you do with your irons, missed that RIBZ!!!
My original plan was to set both my Iron's, at 1/3 co-witness, and Optic to the 100yd zero (at least to start and see if that works for me). I do have a light and green laser as well under the barrel...the laser on that, the plan is to set that at a constant offset rather than a specific zero. I have to admit, the laser may have been a waste of money....I NEVER use them on my handgun opting to stick with tritium iron sights.
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I have had significant trouble adapting to the concept of the AR as a handgun. IMHO, the bore line is simply too far above the hand grip to permit what I'd consider comfortable handgun handling. In my estimation the AR will, for me at least, always be a two handed firearm. One handed always comes off as unwieldy for me. YMMV.
My approach is to reserve close-in firearms applications to a pistol caliber, 9mm being my choice, because of its popularity, availability, and my adamant choice to keep my handguns to a single chambering (a promise already broken, my Wife can't rack the 9 and has to use a .380 M&P Bodyguard). For two hands, the Ruger PC Carbine 9 (Red Dot), and for one hand, the RAP 9. Magazine commonality closes the deal for me.
Looking at things like the 300BO, I see that cartridge as a sophisticated attempt to make a rifle round act like a pistol round. Very simply, a pistol cartridge is probably a lot easier to get the desired behavior out of. As for subsonics, put a heavy 30 in a 7.62x39. No case forming, not much else of anything but powder choice and charge. I love the x39 for my Savage Scout, and it has a 308 bore as well. Twist of 1:10" is probably too slow for those bullets and velocities, but ...
It's like an exercise in making a simple thing more elegant. Maybe like trying to develop a subsonic 223. I already have and love the 22LR.
No life is long enough to plumb all the myriad options, but I'm still giving it all a whack...
In the'90's our Marine Corps League shooting program would run the USMC Pistol Quals COF days a couple of times a year. We'd make it a family picnic outing. It included timed rapid, weak hand, and timed rapid with magazine changes. More stress than that was probably overkill. The kids learned range safety, too; a real bonus.
We'd do a ham shoot for fun. Hang a canned ham from a foot of cord. On a line in unison from 15 yd, shoot, advance two steps, shoot, repeat until the ham falls. DON'T SHOOT THE HAM! We found out that a SWC does wonders for cutting the string, a RN just pushes it aside.
Our two oldest Grandkids, 21 and 23, live with us and each has a handgun - M&P 9 Shield, but we all need to train up some more. We could probably use another couple of PC 9 Carbines, too.
Greg
My approach is to reserve close-in firearms applications to a pistol caliber, 9mm being my choice, because of its popularity, availability, and my adamant choice to keep my handguns to a single chambering (a promise already broken, my Wife can't rack the 9 and has to use a .380 M&P Bodyguard). For two hands, the Ruger PC Carbine 9 (Red Dot), and for one hand, the RAP 9. Magazine commonality closes the deal for me.
Looking at things like the 300BO, I see that cartridge as a sophisticated attempt to make a rifle round act like a pistol round. Very simply, a pistol cartridge is probably a lot easier to get the desired behavior out of. As for subsonics, put a heavy 30 in a 7.62x39. No case forming, not much else of anything but powder choice and charge. I love the x39 for my Savage Scout, and it has a 308 bore as well. Twist of 1:10" is probably too slow for those bullets and velocities, but ...
It's like an exercise in making a simple thing more elegant. Maybe like trying to develop a subsonic 223. I already have and love the 22LR.
No life is long enough to plumb all the myriad options, but I'm still giving it all a whack...
In the'90's our Marine Corps League shooting program would run the USMC Pistol Quals COF days a couple of times a year. We'd make it a family picnic outing. It included timed rapid, weak hand, and timed rapid with magazine changes. More stress than that was probably overkill. The kids learned range safety, too; a real bonus.
We'd do a ham shoot for fun. Hang a canned ham from a foot of cord. On a line in unison from 15 yd, shoot, advance two steps, shoot, repeat until the ham falls. DON'T SHOOT THE HAM! We found out that a SWC does wonders for cutting the string, a RN just pushes it aside.
Our two oldest Grandkids, 21 and 23, live with us and each has a handgun - M&P 9 Shield, but we all need to train up some more. We could probably use another couple of PC 9 Carbines, too.
Greg
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Yep....9mm my choice as well. Carry chambered....which is why I purcased a DA/SA.....like the idea of HAVING to do a full trigger pull on the first and lighter trigger pull there after. Had the Sig Armorer do his carry package on one of my P229's, will do the other in the future. This lowered the first trigger pull to about 8lbs instead of 10....second trigger pull is under 4. HIGHLY recommend...The Sig Armorer.
Sigs P229 has no other safety....you pull the trigger it fires. Positive is you actually have to pull that trigger for that first round, it's a conscious act minimizing accidental discharge. Even though one should never have there figure on the trigger....under stress....it does happen.
The negative is there are two trigger pulls to learn...instead of one. That can be taken care of with training.
Those pics I posted are with using both trigger pulls. Takes time to learn....but can be done.
With the advantments in handgun ammunition in recent times...9mm is a solid round for self defense. It will only get better over time. Lower recoil than higher caliber rounds...but with good HP's....mushrooming and penetration are solid.
Yes...HUGE difference in sight above bore distance between AR and handgun.....even with a Red Dot. I believe my Eotech is about 3.715" above bore while my 9mm Sig is like .5 of an inch or so.
I mainly use a 2 handed hold on my Sig....even though I can shoot 1 handed either hand, and there are times that would be necessary, I much prefer, and am most accurate with 2 hands.
Probably the only thing that will carry over to my learning the AR15 platform is a round comes out of both chambers and one must learn/train the aiming procedure. Everything else is ??????. Oh wait...they both have removable magazines too...lol.
M&P are nice firearms. In my 2 month search for the right fit for me for a handgun, they were in my top 3. However, the Sig, specifically the 229 in 9mm, fit my hand like a glove. HATED Glocks.....don't no how people use them or like them. Their like holding a 2x4 in my hand. VERY uncomfortable....for me anyway.
Oh that ham drill is pretty neat....fun times.
And my wife not only has trouble racking my Sig....she also can't really handle that first trigger pull...at least before I had the carry job done. She MIGHT be able to now....but still iffy....weak hands.
Best,
KM1
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The laser has merit in low light and no light shooting especially if you have an NV capable laser. That 8inc circle does not apply at 400yd. With the 11.5 I was placing the dot just above the head of steel target like a halo and hitting the lowers portion of center mass between belly button and diaphragm.
As far as choosing a zero I tell people to look at their environment and the intended use of the weapon. My nephew also has an 11.5 and his irons are set to 36 but I prefer the RIBZ since my other gun as a fixed carry handle upper it just made sense to go that route and used the dial with the longer barrel.
36 yd is a good general purpose zero in my opinion, that said if you wanna take a more precise shot a 100 yd zero is better for closer ranges, 50 yd and the 25 yd also married. It all just depends on what you want to do with the gun.
It is a green laser...not an NV laser. Might turn out to be nice to have, don't know yet. Plus, there is a 1000 lumens wide spread light on it. In fact, the laser can be operated only, or the light, or in combination. AND the switch can be intermittent for both the light and the laser, quick on/off, or constant on. So that is nice.
Ok...quite a shot at 400yds.
Yes...I believe I will start with that 100yd zero and go from there. It is MORE for self defense purposes...but that doesn't mean I won't venture into longer range shooting with it (beyond 100yds) as I get familiar with the platform. Problem is I don't even know where there is a range around me that is over 25yds...let alone 100 or more. Will see what I can do with the rifle...and the Eotech. As I've said, very new at this....and a lot to learn.
Anyway...my objective was to have more precise shooting to 100+ish yds and I am hoping the 100yd zero will give me what I need. I am GUESSING I will be within an inch of POA/POI using 1moa dot on target from about 60yds to 170yds. Anything closer than 60 a slight high hold I am hoping will put POI where I want it, with the bottom slash of the circle for any very precise shooting under 10yds. And actually, I believe once you are in closer ranges, say 30yds and under, the circle of the reticle in the Eotech is all that should be needed for self defense. Target in the donut, pull the trigger. All of this is speculation at this point....I will know more once I shoot the rifle with the round I chose....at least at that 25 yard range.
We will see!!!
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