300 yard consistency

[Jwoo]

Trying to figure out where money would be best spent.. I have a V22 with a 20" barrel that was built 5 years ago. I have a decent range to shoot at that minimizes wind however, I struggle with vertical dispersion shooing center x at 300yds. At best, I'm grouping ~ 2.5MOA. Ive been debating on doing a barrel swap but I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze. 50 - 200 consistently print sub MOA.

I have tried multiple brands and lots of ammo to include CCI green tag wich had the lowest ES of all but prefomed terribly at 100yds. Best prefomer has been center X and MV's show ~1080.

The end goal is to have a rifle that can shoot a wide birth of ammo well. Im tired of chasing lots and buying bricks that ultimaly will never get used not to mention the availbliliy of Lupua seems to be increasingly elusive.

Open to any suggestions to include re-chambering my exisiting barrel.

-Jay

 

[oldrifleman]

Center X is always my best cross lot performer but at 300 yrs you are the area where the Lapua LR/SLR or Similar from the other makers. Also realistically 22LR ammo at 300yrs is not going to be under 1.5-2.5 MOA. in the best case.

 

[Jwoo]

Yeah I hear you. 300yds is far but there has got to be something more consistent. I stated 2.5 MOA but that was the best my rifle has ever preformed. I have also shot 50rnds at 300 with center X and only printed 15 on an 18"x24" target (~50F light breeze < 1mph) . Ill try to get more data this weekend after installing a new scope. Not disheartened because I love testing but Im tired of burning had to find ammo figuring out what is needed to be consistent at that distance.

I have found MV's > 1115FPS tend to be less accurate with my rifle at 50-100 yds... I'm down a rabbit hole of twist rates, barrel length, and reamers. If a barrel is needed to improve performance with different ammo manufactures Im all game but I havent found conclusive evidence to justify pulling the preverbal tirgger.

Is anyone here consistently shooting 1MOA at 300yds?

 

[KnowNothing256]

I think I’d recommend to you not to do the experimentation yourself. There a few shops putting out extremely accurate builds very consistently; Modacam, DI Precision, and Desert Precision Gunworks all have an excellent reputation, I’d see if you can get into one of their builds.

 

[Jwoo]

A few years ago I lived less than 15mins from DI. He was/is the go to for all the guys I shot with out at CCC in Millican. My brain tells me that I can make some thing of equal accuracy but my pockets drive all decisions. When I started this journey it was suggested to do the buy once cry once method. Back then Vudoo's had a 16 week lead time and they were considred the best for PRS and the cost was ~$2K for a BA . I didnt think things would change so dramaticly in 4 years but here we are with new bolt designs, barrel lenthgs, and twist rates.

Maybe im suffuring from sunken cost fallacy with my existing build but spending ~$500 on a blank and ~$300 reamer and guages sounds more appealing than $2500 for a new BA. Having access to equipment as well as gunsmiths to chamber, thread and crown makes purchasing a blank even more appitizing.

@DI Precision for visiblility.

 

[bobby1028]

Not realistic to think you can consistently hold sub moa at 300yds with a 22lr...just too many variables come into play. I strive for gun/ammo combo that can hold that at 200, beyond that it is what it is on any given day.

 

[6.5SH]

If you have a Xero or LabRadar try running it for every shot at distance.
After having put on several Long Gong events what I've been seeing is most ammo is crap or turned to crap over time.

Close misses can be wind and aerodynamic jump if it is changing directions from your hold. With exceptionally calm or consistent conditions and good ammo it can be great fun on a realistic target size (like a bowling pin). With a 2 MOA or smaller target you'll see the misses correspond with a faster or slower velocity.

 

[Jwoo]

I try to use the Xero every time Im testin. Ill get some more data this weekend. I don't have a tuner but the last time I ran my SCO sparrow the shot group with center X opened up dramatically at 100yds. Have not ran a suppressor since.

 

[oldrifleman]

How does it print at 100 yards? this will tell you whether or not you still have a usable barrel. Pick the ammo that does the best there and go with it. 300 Yards means EVERYTHING is must work to it's highest standard. I am sorry but unless you have a quality lathe and top quality tooling you are not going to match what DI could produce.

 

[oldrifleman]

I try to use the Xero every time Im testin. Ill get some more data this weekend. I don't have a tuner but the last time I ran my SCO sparrow the shot group with center X opened up dramatically at 100yds. Have not ran a suppressor since.

A tuner and a suppressor are not even on the same planet. Something like a Harrels tuner will help the barrel stabilize if used correctly, some rigs respond better than others and you need to be disciplined in your set up.

 

[Jwoo]

Best 300yd

 

[Jwoo]

This is below average grouping for center x at 100yds. I was doing this quick and dirty for revalidation so I could move out to the 200-300yd range

 

[Jwoo]

A tuner and a suppressor are not even on the same planet. Something like a Harrels tuner will help the barrel stabilize if used correctly, some rigs respond better than others and you need to be disciplined in your set up.

I totally understand. I have also heard of shot groups tightening up when suppressed. No harm in trying since I had it on hand.

 

[oldrifleman]

I totally understand. I have also heard of shot groups tightening up when suppressed. No harm in trying since I had it on hand.

Not my experience

 

[bobby1028]

Judging by the 100yd performance I'd say half your 300yd group is environmentals...on a more forgiving day you could easily get sub 2 moa at 300...realistically pretty good.

 

[KnowNothing256]

A few years ago I lived less than 15mins from DI. He was/is the go to for all the guys I shot with out at CCC in Millican. My brain tells me that I can make some thing of equal accuracy but my pockets drive all decisions. When I started this journey it was suggested to do the buy once cry once method. Back then Vudoo's had a 16 week lead time and they were considred the best for PRS and the cost was ~$2K for a BA . I didnt think things would change so dramaticly in 4 years but here we are with new bolt designs, barrel lenthgs, and twist rates.

Maybe im suffuring from sunken cost fallacy with my existing build but spending ~$500 on a blank and ~$300 reamer and guages sounds more appealing than $2500 for a new BA. Having access to equipment as well as gunsmiths to chamber, thread and crown makes purchasing a blank even more appitizing.

@DI Precision for visiblility.

Mm yeah I mean, I wouldn’t buy an all-new BA, I’d just hand your current BA to one of the smiths. If I were trying to tackle your issue.

My concern would be sinking cost into a DIY solution, only for it to be a wash on performance; better to pay an extra $500 or so for a build that’s backed by their reputation and customer support, for me anyway.

Eliminating the “is my gear holding me back” question is pretty important to me though

 

[Jwoo]

How does it print at 100 yards? this will tell you whether or not you still have a usable barrel. Pick the ammo that does the best there and go with it. 300 Yards means EVERYTHING is must work to its highest standard. I am sorry but unless you have a quality lathe and top quality tooling you are not going to match what DI could produce.

This is the rub for me… I have access to quality lathes that have DRO’s and precision measuring devices to include thents indicators. Reamer would be purchased from PTG. I’m not an expert by any stretch and I don’t want this to be misconstrued as arrogance, but cutting treads and timing a barrel isn’t rocket science. I can use my existing barrel for checking my work regarding extractor relief cuts, threading, chambering.

 

[Jwoo]

Mm yeah I mean, I wouldn’t buy an all-new BA, I’d just hand your current BA to one of the smiths. If I were trying to tackle your issue.

My concern would be sinking cost into a DIY solution, only for it to be a wash on performance; better to pay an extra $500 or so for a build that’s backed by their reputation and customer support, for me anyway.

Eliminating the “is my gear holding me back” question is pretty important to me though

This is the chase. I’ll get quotes on getting a new barrel spun up in conjunction. I do know that time is money but I also know that knowledge is power. I have been down the road of “just buy X” to get Y without truly understanding the differences that justify the purchase.

Looking at all options currently.

 

[Shootin25]

Mm yeah I mean, I wouldn’t buy an all-new BA, I’d just hand your current BA to one of the smiths. If I were trying to tackle your issue.

My concern would be sinking cost into a DIY solution, only for it to be a wash on performance; better to pay an extra $500 or so for a build that’s backed by their reputation and customer support, for me anyway.

Eliminating the “is my gear holding me back” question is pretty important to me though

Cannot agree more with the “is my gear holding me back”… comment.
To me, I’ll spend more for the simple pleasure of user interface… the feel..
Like when closing my k80 Skeet gun, it’s worth every penny!
I’m currently on the same chase with my 22lr…

 

[RTH1800]

I would first talk to the top rimfire gunsmiths listed above. See what they are getting for 300 yard accuracy. See if they will let you shoot one of their rigs. Then weigh the difference between what you are currently getting, if any, and decide cost/value relationship.

 

[Jwoo]

I would first talk to the top rimfire gunsmiths listed above. See what they are getting for 300 yard accuracy. See if they will let you shoot one of their rigs. Then weigh the difference between what you are currently getting, if any, and decide cost/value relationship.

This is the plan!


Along with consistency, Im over the chase for Lapua availability. It has been the same thing since 2021. Have to keep suppliers on alerts is irritating considering CCI green tag out of my rifle showed a lower ES and SD. I think prefomance for this round could be improved with lenght and/or twist modification. Bonus is that its always avalible and almost half the cost of center X.

 

[Inline6]

This is at 350 yards in 12-18MPH wind. I'm not sure I will see any better than that. Ammo is the name of the RF game.

 

[Jwoo]

This is at 350 yards in 12-18MPH wind. I'm not sure I will see any better than that. Ammo is the name of the RF game.
View attachment 8666522

Mind listing your setup and ammo selection?

 

[jpjulian]

Pardon, but I think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic at 300 yards with a .22LR.

 

[bobby1028]

This is the plan!


Along with consistency, Im over the chase for Lapua availability. It has been the same thing since 2021. Have to keep suppliers on alerts is irritating considering CCI green tag out of my rifle showed a lower ES and SD. I think prefomance for this round could be improved with lenght and/or twist modification. Bonus is that its always avalible and almost half the cost of center X.

Despite what we'd like to believe low ES and SD are not the end all, great starting point but it's all about results down range. I have 2 cases of Tac22 practice ammo that regularly give me single digit SD's and great 50yd groups...at 200yds you can quickly see why it's $3 a box !

 

[Shootin25]

@Jwoo
I’m assuming you’ve tried Tenex as well?
For some reason, my setup does not like Center X, but great with multiple lots of Tenex.

 

[oldrifleman]

Despite what we'd like to believe low ES and SD are not the end all, great starting point but it's all about results down range. I have 2 cases of Tac22 practice ammo that regularly give me single digit SD's and great 50yd groups...at 200yds you can quickly see why it's $3 a box !

Yeah at distance it is about bullet shape ( wind) and consistency. Yes velocity plays a part, but just a part.

 

[oldrifleman]

@Jwoo
I’m assuming you’ve tried Tenex as well?
For some reason, my setup does not like Center X, but great with multiple lots of Tenex.

Yeah I would definitely try some Tenex, not sure if they have a long range round yet, but they can be as good or better. Also look for RWS R50. Sorry but CCI normally does not normally show up in any of the match equipment lists from winning shooters.

 

[Jwoo]

Pardon, but I think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic at 300 yards with a .22LR.

 

[Jwoo]

@Jwoo
I’m assuming you’ve tried Tenex as well?
For some reason, my setup does not like Center X, but great with multiple lots of Tenex.

I have not and it was actually listed as a recommendation from Voodoo. I have tried all types of SK. I will look and order some shortly.

 

[Jwoo]

Yeah I would definitely try some Tenex, not sure if they have a long range round yet, but they can be as good or better. Also look for RWS R50. Sorry but CCI normally does not normally show up in any of the match equipment lists from winning shooters.

RWS R50 could not be found 1 month ago. I will look again. Thanks for the input!

 

[Shootin25]

I have not and it was actually listed as a recommendation from Voodoo. I have tried all types of SK. I will look and order some shortly.

Where u at? I’ve got lots of lots.
SoCal by chance ?

 

[Jwoo]

Where u at? I’ve got lots of lots.
SoCal by chance ?

Portland OR. Was in SoCal for a while. Fun Times!

 

[Inline6]

Mind listing your setup and ammo selection?

RimX barreled by Crossroads Precision Rifles out of victoria TX. Muller 13T, 25". Ammo is Eley Match, 1123fps, SD 5.6fps. March Genesis 6X60 scope.
MDT ACC Elite Chassis.

 

[Shootin25]

RimX barreled by Crossroads Precision Rifles out of victoria TX. Muller 13T, 25". Ammo is Eley Match, 1123fps, SD 5.6fps. March Genesis 6X60 scope.
MDT ACC Elite Chassis.

Good to see higher velocity working. Mine is very similar. Shoots almost all Tenex at 1120, regardless of what the lot says.

 

[st1650]

Same. My 16in RimX shoots Eley match/tenex at 1120FPS.
It also does much better with Eley than Center-X past 200 yards.

 

[Inline6]

Same. My 16in RimX shoots Eley match/tenex at 1120FPS.
It also does much better with Eley than Center-X past 200 yards.

Interesting, Eley seems to fall apart for me around the 400 yard mark. Lapua Super Long has done better beyond 400.

 

[oldrifleman]

Lapua SLR is my go to, I got a case a couple of months ago.

 

[Inline6]

Lapua SLR is my go to, I got a case a couple of months ago.

Lucky!

 

[MarkCZ]

I totally understand. I have also heard of shot groups tightening up when suppressed. No harm in trying since I had it on hand.

Jwoo,
You have vertical in your 100yd group. You need to try a Tuner, it will take vertical out of your groups. If your barrel is threaded get a EC V2 tuner. It is way cheaper than a new barrel. I have 3 of them, they work great. I tune a 50yds and take the best settings and fine tune at 200yds, looking only for vertical spread. I have tuned out to 400yds on very good wind conditions.

 

[Emerson0311]

Yeah I would definitely try some Tenex, not sure if they have a long range round yet, but they can be as good or better. Also look for RWS R50. Sorry but CCI normally does not normally show up in any of the match equipment lists from winning shooters.

Yes sir, you are right on.

OP:
CCI is shit ammo in this conversation. Shoot a 20-30 shot group of Eley Match or Tenex, after seasoning the bore with at least 10 shots first.
Lots of posters are trying to be diplomatic here. Get off your damn wallet. XAct, Midas+, Tenex, Eley Match before you waste any more time messing around. I sound mean, but I’m trying to help you understand the realities of Rimfire at 200+.

 

[oldrifleman]

Yes sir, you are right on.

OP:
CCI is shit ammo in this conversation. Shoot a 20-30 shot group of Eley Match or Tenex, after seasoning the bore with at least 10 shots first.
Lots of posters are trying to be diplomatic here. Get off your damn wallet. XAct, Midas+, Tenex, Eley Match before you waste any more time messing around. I sound mean, but I’m trying to help you understand the realities of Rimfire at 200+.

Thank you for being more direct I would throw in the LR and Super LR. I tried Xact and found my lot of Midas beat it, but SLR beat them all at/above 100yrds.

 

[jbell]

Yes sir, you are right on.

OP:
CCI is shit ammo in this conversation. Shoot a 20-30 shot group of Eley Match or Tenex, after seasoning the bore with at least 10 shots first.
Lots of posters are trying to be diplomatic here. Get off your damn wallet. XAct, Midas+, Tenex, Eley Match before you waste any more time messing around. I sound mean, but I’m trying to help you understand the realities of Rimfire at 200+.

Facts…

 

[Jwoo]

Yes sir, you are right on.

OP:
CCI is shit ammo in this conversation. Shoot a 20-30 shot group of Eley Match or Tenex, after seasoning the bore with at least 10 shots first.
Lots of posters are trying to be diplomatic here. Get off your damn wallet. XAct, Midas+, Tenex, Eley Match before you waste any more time messing around. I sound mean, but I’m trying to help you understand the realities of Rimfire at 200+.

I understand that CCI is considered shit around these parts. I have no dog in the fight regarding ammo as I haven't tried every type listed in this thread. Match grade LR ammo has been tough to purchase reliably since I got into this game. Im sure a lot of you guys buy rounds by the case however, Im not the type to sit on a case of ammo that doesnt shoot well with any firearm. I would love to test SLR but struggle to find it in stock. Eley is the only one that I havent tried on your list and plan to make a purchse tonight.

There has to be some middle ground where you dont need sit by a computer waiting for stock to be replenished. Maybe sending the rifle off for lot testting would be better use of money so I can buy 5k rounds of whatever shoots the best but I think the distances of those factory test are limited to 100yds.

I have seen evidence of faster twist rates and longer barrel lenghts normilizing midtire ammo, allowing the user to shoot sub 2MOA reliably out to 300yds in ideal conditions. My rifle has yet to do this with the ammo I have tested and Im not sure it ever will regardless of the ammo selection. I am learning in this proccess and I feel it neccessary to question if 20" barrel lenthg at 1:16tw is optimal as I see multiple front of pack shooters running a different setup.

I know top rimfire smiths are cranking out some quality gear these days but I want to know the WHY they choose X vs Y. This can be taken further with reamer selection but thats a whole different can of worms.

I appreciate everyones feedback and will try each logical suggestion. I have some homework and testing to do. I have already used ammo seek as well as shooting bot to source some Eley. Will update with results when ammo comes in.

~Jay

 

[st1650]

In defense of CCI,
SV is just as good as Eley match/Tenex in my RimX inside of 100yards. After that it falls apart but it’s still remarkable how well it does for the cost and is great ammo for practicing positional shooting.

 

[Shootin25]

I shoot a 12 twist chambered to whatever PVA does and it HAMMERS.
I may have even over torqued it by accident. I’m sure there’s some black magic to your questions, but I just sent it… maybe it’s luck!
Or… maybe I spent time and $ on lot testing Tenex…
Pics at 50yds of various lots.
I don’t have photos of 100 and 200, but was one of the few to clean a longish stage last month.
PS: I’m only a few months into 22lr and matches..

 

[jbell]

In defense of CCI,
SV is just as good as Eley match/Tenex in my RimX inside of 100yards. After that it falls apart but it’s still remarkable how well it does for the cost and is great ammo for practicing positional shooting.

For context, what are your average group sizes with CCI SV?

 

[Inline6]

Just remember bigman 22 is nothing but worms!

20" barrel means nothing as far as accuracy is concerned. One of my most accurate barrel is a 20-5/8" 16TW Shilen. Why is it at that length? That's where it slugged.

This was at 206 yards, in some 10+MPH wind, Lapua Long Range.

Have a Krieger 25" 16TW, I wanted it as long as possible for balance of the rifle. It is another shooter. Same distance 206 yards ammo SK Tan.

Have tested 12TW, 13TW and 16TW. Short and long. Tried 13TW vs 16TW back to back with 15 different lots (16TWwas short 13TWwas long). Results? They were inclusive... SDs and ESs were even split between the 15 lots. Both rifles tested shoot! My personal opinion is you need a good blank and a competent smith. Twist is a factor, if you want to know by how much? I have not seen enough evidence to make the call.

You are on the right track, I have spent thousands on test lots. You are money ahead to have your BA lot tested IMHO.
Look at KSS for Eley, good bunch over there.

 

[Inline6]

@Shootin25 nice shooting!

 

[Jwoo]

Just picked up 200 of each - Eley Match, Tenex, and ELR from Battlehawk. Never bought from them before. @Inline6 your last post is the information that I have been waiting to see.

I hate the black magic part of all this. My brain wont let me accept it. I have a hard stop $$$$ on testing with this barrel before I try my hand at spinning up something or have this thing Lot tested. You all have been extremely helpful. Ill post data as soon as possible.