1/2 MOA at 100 yards, all day, every day!

I haven't looked at any of the data too closely yet, and I fully expected the data to be poor quality due to the short distance. My priority was to collect and compile sample data while I had an opportunity and my OnTarget TDS trial was still active. The chronograph errors should be a relatively fixed magnitude while the velocity difference will increase with distance, improving the signal to noise ratio.

Average BC will be easy to determine (iterate in a ballistics app) but time consuming to do on a per shot basis. Can anyone suggest a more efficient way of calculating individual BC's for many shots?
 
I haven't looked at any of the data too closely yet, and I fully expected the data to be poor quality due to the short distance. My priority was to collect and compile sample data while I had an opportunity and my OnTarget TDS trial was still active. The chronograph errors should be a relatively fixed magnitude while the velocity difference will increase with distance, improving the signal to noise ratio.

Average BC will be easy to determine (iterate in a ballistics app) but time consuming to do on a per shot basis. Can anyone suggest a more efficient way of calculating individual BC's for many shots?
Make an Excel sheet to apply your near and far velocity (and distance and air density...) to a formula.

 
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At the claimed 75 yards, sure.
I think it's a bogus claim. Especially if 75 yards are only considered without specifying muzzle velocity. It could be cherry picking from real data, or even worse-just computed from bullet shape. Custom drag curve should be better published instead. Besides, constancy of drag profile is more important at usual shooting distances than high number. Smells like an old trick for selling ammo!
 
I think it's a bogus claim. Especially if 75 yards are only considered without specifying muzzle velocity. It could be cherry picking from real data, or even worse-just computed from bullet shape. Custom drag curve should be better published instead. Besides, constancy of drag profile is more important at usual shooting distances than high number. Smells like an old trick for selling ammo!
BC isn't a set thing just because of the ammo, or what the manufacturer prints in their specs. With my Vudoo 20" barrel, SKRM MV 1,078fps my Kestrel 5700 Elite needs a BC of 0.158 in order for it to calculate drops correctly.

Also doesn't mean 0.158 is going to be correct for any of my other rifles, using the same ammo, in the same environmental conditions.
 
Now that I have your attention, how? What does it take to produce 1/2 MOA(ish) groups on demand? Is it even possible with 22LR and if so, with what caveats?

There are enough 6x5 averages posted in the 1/2 MOA range that it can't be a statistical anomaly. There are some extremely skilled shooters on this forum with the best available equipment. Personally, I consider myself a mechanically good shooter with good equipment. I would guess I'm capable of holding sub 1/8" MOA from a bench or prone with a bipod and squishing rear bag. I shoot a V-22 with 18" Bartlein MTU barrel. During ammo testing I averaged 0.905 MOA at 104 yards over 10x 10 shot groups with the best lot of Lapua X-Act. I had a calibrated wind flag at 50 yards and tried to fire all shots with less than 2.5 - 3 mph crosswind. I'm admittedly a novice with reading wind. I made no effort to compensate for wind during these groups.

For those that have posted averages in the 1/2 MOA range, could you do so on any day, or were those days "special"? Could you do so throughout the day, on any "average" day, or were those groups shot on the one day every 3 years where there is no wind between 6:45 and 7am? Are you shooting indoors? Are you talanted enough to shoot 1/2 MOA in variable winds without flags? I would like to believe it's possible but rare.

My perception is it takes a lot of ammo well matched to the gun, with either an exceptionally good shooter compensating for wind, or exceptionally good conditions. If I were to offer a $100k bet for you could show up at my range tomorrow, regardless of conditions, and produce 10x 10 shoot groups with a sub-1/2 MOA average, would anyone be interested and how would they approach it? What does it take to go from 1 MOA to 1/2 MOA groups (consistantly)?

For anyone curious, here are my results from X-Act testing along with my best target.

SeriesAmmoLotBrakeShots:SpaceGroup ESGroup SDGroup MeanTargetSpace2MinMaxAvgS-DES
5X-Act26557/709904Yes101.3930.1870.739X-Act 04 A1068108010753.96712
6X-Act30555/706293Yes101.4220.2410.718X-Act 93 A1082111110928.98529
7X-Act27557/700011Yes100.8480.1650.454X-Act 11 A1076109510887.15219
8X-Act26557/709904Yes100.7790.140.405X-Act 04 B1071108810805.73517
9X-Act30555/706293Yes101.0230.1890.539X-Act 93 B1074110210918.54828
10X-Act27557/700011Yes100.8920.1260.475X-Act 11 B1082110010895.35518
11X-Act26557/709904Yes101.4650.2440.778X-Act 04 C1075109210835.18717
12X-Act30555/706293Yes101.1810.2020.655X-Act 93 C1094110210972.8078
13X-Act27557/700011Yes100.850.1310.474X-Act 11 C1081109910925.68118
14X-Act26557/709904Yes101.0520.1720.597X-Act 04 D1072109410817.97222
15X-Act30555/706293Yes101.3560.2350.725X-Act 93 D1089110710995.51918
16X-Act27557/700011Yes100.8240.1570.434X-Act 11 D1084110410936.36720
17X-Act26557/709904Yes101.7180.3830.865X-Act 04 E1072110310868.63831
18X-Act30555/706293Yes101.0410.1560.589X-Act 93 E1076110310927.22627
19X-Act27557/700011Yes101.090.2170.616X-Act 11 E1080110510967.76325
20X-Act26557/709904No91.2280.1690.654X-Act 04 G1076109110834.67615
21X-Act30555/706293No101.1080.1580.608X-Act 93 G1091110510984.55214
22X-Act27557/700011No100.9660.1550.514X-Act 11 G1091111111016.99620
23X-Act26557/709904No101.8240.2990.945X-Act 04 H10651103108111.0638
24X-Act30555/706293No100.9730.1830.513X-Act 93 H1089110910986.5920
25X-Act27557/700011No100.8470.1610.487X-Act 11 H1082110910998.00327
26X-Act26557/709904No101.4440.2520.732X-Act 04 I10601096107913.536
27X-Act30555/706293No101.0350.2310.565X-Act 93 I1091111911038.34628
28X-Act27557/700011No100.6840.1080.374X-Act 11 I1088110610966.49818
29X-Act26557/709904No101.4120.2280.754X-Act 04 J1073110310848.6830
30X-Act30555/706293No101.3960.2410.76X-Act 93 J1092111911048.24727
31X-Act27557/700011No100.9420.1640.54X-Act 11 J1094111311027.59319
32X-Act26557/709904No101.3250.2230.674X-Act 04 K10661107108410.5441
33X-Act30555/706293No101.3590.2370.732X-Act 93 K1093111211026.00419
34X-Act27557/700011No101.10.2450.584X-Act 11 K1083111011008.36727

This is my best group from the session. Excluding the high right shot, it is 0.485 MOA. As a point of reference, a 1mph change in crosswind component accounts for 1/2" deviation in that shot.

1700187167514.png


Jeff
I would love to see 1|2 moa outdoors with consistency. I personally don't think it's possible with .22lr.
Indoors, more controlled climate I think you may have a chance, but it does not take much to change the trajectory of 22lr.
It's a great goal to chase though.
 
BC isn't a set thing just because of the ammo, or what the manufacturer prints in their specs. With my Vudoo 20" barrel, SKRM MV 1,078fps my Kestrel 5700 Elite needs a BC of 0.158 in order for it to calculate drops correctly.

Also doesn't mean 0.158 is going to be correct for any of my other rifles, using the same ammo, in the same environmental conditions.
Drops up to 75 yards or so are more sensitive to MVs than to BC figure.
BC varies with velocity unless one deals with a projectile of one of standard drag function shape.
The variability is especially touchy in transonic range, where 22 LR usually shots in.
Also, as you said, under such conditions, an average BC (calculated from near and far velocity tests) depends on particular rifle used too.
These influences would be smaller at longer range (150-200 y).
 
Drops up to 75 yards or so are more sensitive to MVs than to BC figure.
BC varies with velocity unless one deals with a projectile of one of standard drag function shape.
The variability is especially touchy in transonic range, where 22 LR usually shots in.
Also, as you said, under such conditions, an average BC (calculated from near and far velocity tests) depends on particular rifle used too.
These influences would be smaller at longer range (150-200 y).
While ammo transitioning through the transonic zone does have an effect on accuracy/consistency, it doesn't affect 22lr enough to really matter. I rarely deal with 22lr in the transonic zone, I normally shoot target or match grade ammo that is subsonic from the muzzle when accuracy is the goal. When I do shoot HV ammo it is usually at BIG targets well inside the transonic zone (40 yards or less).

As for "Drops up to 75 yards or so are more sensitive to MVs than to BC figure." The BC directly impacts velocity from the time the projectile leaves the muzzle, so it still plays a part in drops at closer ranges, including 75 yards and closer.
 
As for "Drops up to 75 yards or so are more sensitive to MVs than to BC figure." The BC directly impacts velocity from the time the projectile leaves the muzzle, so it still plays a part in drops at closer ranges, including 75 yards and closer.
Normally BC always impacts the drop, but at closer ranges constancy of MV and BC impacts accuracy even more (among other things)
BTW, this kind of radar seems suitable to me for the measurements:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/fx-outdoors-true-ballistics-chronograph?a=13379
 
I was watching an MDT video on this just the other day. One suggestion they had to keep groups small is to move your point of aim from point of impact. If you loose your point of aim due to shooting it out, your groups will naturally widen out. Try adjusting your scope a few tenths one way or another to get that consistent point of aim and see if that tightens the groupings.
 
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With the same varieties of .22LR match ammo up to 100 yards or so, minor variations in BC won't make any meaningful difference in accuracy performance. Especially at distances beyond 50 yards, MV variation will play a bigger and bigger role. So, too, will variation in Cg from round-to-round and lot-to-lot.