Red Dot on CCW Pistol. Do you guys use them?

#101
Paul Anderson said:
I do not have a red dot on my CCW for a couple of reasons. First, if you are pulling your weapon for self defense, most likely it is going to happen very quickly and within very close quarters. I feel there wouldn't be the time or need to take "a beed" and shoot. I believe it will be quick reaction, so, no need for a red dot. Second, if, God forbid, you are forced to shoot, the police will confiscate your weapon. I don't believe they would allow you to remove your red dot before they take your gun. Oh, as I am writing this I remembered reading that prosecution can, and probably will state having a red dot shows "intent". Pre planning on your part. Think it through before dropping money on a red dot for your CCW.
Click to expand...

Jesus ... this is all complete hogwash. By your logic, simply carrying a gun could show intent, so you're fucked anyways. If you don't need to take a "beed" or aim then remove your SD/HD iron sights too. When you have zero sights on your gun for SD/HD then at least you'll walk the walk lol. If not, then your point is moot and a red dot is still a better aiming system, IF, you're actually trying to improve your shooting. If you don't care, then keep your iron sights and never aim your gun properly. No one on here is saying you NEED a red dot. We are simply saying, that given the same amount of training, most shooters with a red dot will outshoot someone on every level than that same person with iron sights.


shoots100 said:
You guys crack me up.
After reading your eye opening retorts, It's probably just dumb luck that anyone's ever hit a target or survived any type of gunfight before red dot sights were invented.
The average gunfight takes place at/or less than 3-5 yards.
A red dot sight isn't needed for a normal person that has functioning eyes and some range time.
They are recommended for the sight impaired, which many here obviously are and I commend them for their use of an aiming aid to keep them in the fight, or the truly lazy couch commandos that don't practice with their weapons enough to become proficient with them and need a red dot sight to compensate for their laziness.
I also don't need to buy a special holster for any of my pistol's and try concealing a red dot sighted snub nose in your front pocket of your shorts or jeans.
I've been an RSO and competitor in the military and shooting sports for almost 40 years and while I've seen some issues with iron sighted pistols, most relating to fiber optic rod issues or when a pistol was used as a hammer, but rarely have I seen an iron sight pistol leave the field because of the sight's being inoperable.
I can't say the same for red dot sights.
I've seen pieces of red dot and holo sights littered all over shoot houses and competitors leaving the range because their dots aren't working and they didn't have to tool to remove the sight, so they could continue using their iron sights.
Red dot sights have their uses, but their not for everyone, just as iron sights aren't for everyone and most naysayers are speaking from experience or they would be extolling the use of red dot sights.
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"...blah blah blah, i've done this for 40 yrs ... blah blah". Sorry but the only thing this shows me is your unwillingness to observe and adapt to changes in the complex system of shooting. Complacency. Especially when guys who have also "done this for 40yrs" are so willing to transition and fully understand the benefits.

If the ONLY reason you carry or own a gun is for the chance that you'll use it at a distance of 3-5yds then take off all of your sights. If its anything besides that, then a red dot will allow you to shoot better with similar training input. Have you not heard the many testimonials on here and elsewhere saying how dot usage has made them BETTER iron sights shooters? Why do you think that is....

If you prefer irons, then thats cool too. But don't confuse your personal opinion with the overwhelming body of experience and data supporting dot usage. What I don't get is how guys can unequivocally support and run red dots on their rifles and then baulk at the idea of that transitioning to pistols....INSANE
 
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#102
My only issue is that my astigmatism bugs the fuck out of me with red dots, and while I can correct it with glasses, I generally choose not to because it is mild and I find other vision performance is impaired by doing so. If I were built more perfectly I'd definitely use a red dot. Or if I could find one that wasn't annoying.
 
#103
I came to Frank’s place to learn about the art and science of precision rifle shooting. If some of the “information” in this thread is any indication, I’m going to have to radically increase my BS filter in those threads…. I know, I know, it’s the interwebs (a great place for those with no knowledge on a subject to say it).

Fun fact, the paper and the timer don’t lie about your real performance abilities, which can only degrade when it’s for realz. How much they degrade is directly related to how well you prepared.

But like a train wreck, I can’t look away.
 
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#105
the ones that say they're not good for conceal carry because they are bulky make me laugh the most. Get a good holster and belt like any CCW recommendation. Are they familiar with how tiny these things are?

img_1860-jpg.7360780
 
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#107
"The prosecution acknowledges it was a clear cut case of self defense Your Honor, but upon further investigation he had small red dot sight."

"Clearly guilty. Life without parole."

Another life ruined by the well-documented legal precariousness of having a red dot on a carry gun...

:ROFLMAO:
 
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#108
Milf Dots said:
You're factually incorrect about the bolded ^^^ words above... in truth, the fastest way to improve a newb's indexing and use of a dot optic is to tape over or remove the steel sights and force the shooter to focus on the target as the pistol is pushed forward. Conventional sights are only used as backup in the event the dot optic fails.

The myth that conventional sights 'help one find the dot' needs to die, as does the bad advice for shooters to fully co-witness their sights to the Dot. If one MUST have BUIS, the sights should be as low in the lens as possible- "lower third witness".
Click to expand...
I think you're misunderstanding my intent, but I guess we're re-educating all the time? This isn't the ar15.com forum is it? I think it goes without saying that lower one-third is the only way to go. I haven't heard of anyone having to tape off sights to learn how to use a red dot, it seems a little silly that you can't have more control over what you look at and when depending on what you're trying to train. I would only use my BUIS in the event my dot failed or my glass broke. I don't even see them anymore. If you don't see the dot when you present, doesn't much matter if the irons are taped or not; simply waving your pistol around until you see it is not an efficient way to train.

However, iron sights could help you gain some reference point on the movement you're making when you present (Tom doesn't see dot, where are Tom's irons?) and allow you to modify that muscle memory if you find that you're continuing to end up in the same place. Correlate the position of your irons with your presentation and grip: "how am I ending up here?" If your irons are taped - and I have no idea how that helps a newbie as they have no reference point to begin with - you can't measure or accelerate improvement. You're just fishing for a dot in the dark. I think this might be a good way to train at a later stage but you're likely going to scare a newb. I'm willing to bet that an Acro is probably the best "first" red dot for a beginner if we're using visual cues to understand what we're doing wrong and how to fix those problems.
 
#109
hafejd30 said:
In training:
Put that same person talking to someone 3 feet away. Then mid sentence have bad guy pull a knife and start stabbing the “good guy” as many times as they can with a plastic training knife. While at the same time both fighting for control of the gun. When the 30 second drill is up see who notices the gun having any sights
Click to expand...
I'm not sure this is a valid argument for irons or dots. If I'm about to be stabbed, am I trying to get a good front sight picture with either? How does the bad guy know I have a gun? Also, why did I let someone get that close to me to begin with if I'm "average joe" with a CCW? First rule is to be situationally aware and then AVOID that situation at all costs. I should have made some sort of visual and verbal acknowledgement of someone before they're within Tueller range much less 3 feet. If they're within 3 feet and you don't already have a hand on your weapon, going hands on is your only initial option followed by point shooting assuming you can draw your weapon without giving it away. Then there all sorts of other situational variables to factor in, mostly legal ones. This is the sort of gun-focused, self defense talk that steers newcomers to self-defense in the wrong direction.
 
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#110
hafejd30 said:
In training:
Put that same person talking to someone 3 feet away. Then mid sentence have bad guy pull a knife and start stabbing the “good guy” as many times as they can with a plastic training knife. While at the same time both fighting for control of the gun. When the 30 second drill is up see who notices the gun having any sights

Induce the threat as well as the surprise factor into the shooting and see where iron sights guy and RDS guy stand afterwards. Shooting paper or steel isn’t the same when the target isn’t an active threat
Click to expand...

Strawman argument
 
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#111
liminalState said:
However, iron sights could help you gain some reference point on the movement you're making when you present (Tom doesn't see dot, where are Tom's irons?) and allow you to modify that muscle memory if you find that you're continuing to end up in the same place. Correlate the position of your irons with your presentation and grip: "how am I ending up here?" If your irons are taped - and I have no idea how that helps a newbie as they have no reference point to begin with - you can't measure or accelerate improvement. You're just fishing for a dot in the dark. I think this might be a good way to train at a later stage but you're likely going to scare a newb. I'm willing to bet that an Acro is probably the best "first" red dot for a beginner if we're using visual cues to understand what we're doing wrong and how to fix those problems.
Click to expand...

I taught myself how to get my index squared away enough to see the dot on the draw without the use of backup irons. It wasn't that difficult and it didn't take very long for two reasons:
  1. I'm analytical and methodical by nature
  2. I wasn't a new pistol shooter
I was done in about two weeks of semi regular dry fire. No need to fire a single round to learn how.
 
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#112
hafejd30 said:
I do laugh at the guys at the range who pull up to a target, get their correct and preferred stance like they always do, pre draw and practice putting sights on target before re holstering the weapon.

Hands at the ready they wait for a beep they know is coming. Beep, fire and re evaluate the situation

In training:
Put that same person talking to someone 3 feet away. Then mid sentence have bad guy pull a knife and start stabbing the “good guy” as many times as they can with a plastic training knife. While at the same time both fighting for control of the gun. When the 30 second drill is up see who notices the gun having any sights

Induce the threat as well as the surprise factor into the shooting and see where iron sights guy and RDS guy stand afterwards. Shooting paper or steel isn’t the same when the target isn’t an active threat

Most of your SD situations (at least in LE) are up close and that’s where the training is focused on. No Dept I’ve worked for or know of issue RDS on pistols and LEO train more for close contact SD situations then probably any other group. And that’s where most HD/SD situations will happen

No different than saying a PRS shooter would outshoot a Mil Sniper. Factors just aren’t induced just shooting at ranges

Sims or sim round/airsoft force on force training is the only way to know where you stand in a SD situation short of actually being in a real one. If you do force on force and not just target shooting then you can make a honest assessment of what works best for YOU. Not everyone else
Click to expand...
Laugh all you want but at least they're getting some reps in which is more than you can say for most folks who CCW. I dry fire my rifles 5-10 times, in position (prone or otherwise), before going hot.. Probably wouldn't do that in Zombie Apocalypse but I still do it at the range.

Static drills are good for building into moving drills either as a warm up or to establish a benchmark. I started using this 50(ish) Round Playing Card Drill. Staple a playing card to a target backer (or print a bunch - to scale - like i did). Stand 2-3ish yards away and do the following sequence of shots. All shots must land in the playing card to move forward. Simulates a lot of grievances you have with SD training. Moving first then shooting - stoppages, reloads, etc.. all on the clock. Move out further as you master distances.

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#113
65yr old-as old school as a fucker can be....do it--don't "hunt"for the dot---if the target is centered in window,with correct hold,you;re good to go,but I don't shoot competition,so a 2-4" group center of mass is good enough for me.
 
#114
mcameron said:
there are absolutely thing you can do to simulate that adrenaline kick...

before drawing and acquiring a sight picture:
  • sprint
Click to expand...
Icky. You lost me at sprinting. 69 years of being professional and never once needed to sprint! Let alone a few hundred yards. I only need to be able to rapidly cover 3-5 yards.

Jk 😜
 
#115
hafejd30 said:
I do laugh at the guys at the range who pull up to a target, get their correct and preferred stance like they always do, pre draw and practice putting sights on target before re holstering the weapon.

Hands at the ready they wait for a beep they know is coming. Beep, fire and re evaluate the situation

In training:
Put that same person talking to someone 3 feet away. Then mid sentence have bad guy pull a knife and start stabbing the “good guy” as many times as they can with a plastic training knife. While at the same time both fighting for control of the gun. When the 30 second drill is up see who notices the gun having any sights

Induce the threat as well as the surprise factor into the shooting and see where iron sights guy and RDS guy stand afterwards. Shooting paper or steel isn’t the same when the target isn’t an active threat

Most of your SD situations (at least in LE) are up close and that’s where the training is focused on. No Dept I’ve worked for or know of issue RDS on pistols and LEO train more for close contact SD situations then probably any other group. And that’s where most HD/SD situations will happen

No different than saying a PRS shooter would outshoot a Mil Sniper. Factors just aren’t induced just shooting at ranges

Sims or sim round/airsoft force on force training is the only way to know where you stand in a SD situation short of actually being in a real one. If you do force on force and not just target shooting then you can make a honest assessment of what works best for YOU. Not everyone else
Click to expand...
www.policemag.com

Starting a Duty Pistol Red Dot Optic Program

Officers and agencies have to be willing to rethink firearms training to gain the benefits of adding optics to duty handguns.
www.policemag.com www.policemag.com

This is from 2 years ago.
 
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#116
308pirate said:
This is how I know you don't know shit from shinola despite your "40 years" of whatever bullshit you do.
Click to expand...
Your retort is exactly what was anticipated from a close minded person that can't accept a differing opinion that others might not need or prefer a red dot sight on their CCW pistol.
I train CCW holders in the use of red dot's too, if they prefer to use them or I access that they could benefit from using one, but am not so close minded to figure out that not all people need or want to use an RDS, which is a mental block you just can't seem to get around.
 
#118
Different stroke for a different folk. Some need or want a RDS and some don’t. That doesn’t mean one or the other will be more effective. It’s on the user and the situation to determine that

While we’re on the subject of RDS being more effective, iron sights being outdated and what not

Can anyone recall the RDS or optic choice of Simo Hayha?

Surely the deadliest sniper in history must have chosen a S&B, NF ATACR or Aimpoint of some kind
 
#119
I ran out of popcorn so I might as well toss in my two cents worth. I am 66 as is my twin brother. My brother has troubles finding the dot and the problem is his index and setup. He is righthanded and cross eye dominate with a lazy eye and presbyopia. What a shit show from the get-go.

Anyhow, watch Rob Leatham's video "Aiming is Useless" at .

Then watch it again. What Leatham is really saying is your sight setup doesn't mean much if you can't make the gun go bang without disturbing the sight alignment. One of my favorite quotes from Leatham is along the lines of "Hitting the target is simple. But that doesn't mean it is easy." I'll be back later with more take it or leave it info. BTW, I started shooting competitively (rifle) when I was in the 7th grade. As my shooting improved I tried, and/or adopted changes in technology. The old adage, "It's the Indian, not the arrow," does have some merit. But there is nothing wrong with using a compound bow with carbon fiber arrows.
 
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#121
I have to guess that this is the same exact list of bullshit reasons fudds and those clinging to old technology gave against reflex sights on rifles 20 - 25 years ago.

Shit, the NRA and CMP started allowing LPVOs on Service Rifles I think 10 years ago and 1/3 of the people on the NM forum didn't even know how to use one, 1/3 thought they wouldn't last half a season without breaking, and the other 1/3 whined about the sport being destroyed.

Retards will retard
 
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#122
Simo probably would have given his left nut for an Aimpoint T2.

Keep in mind optics were shit in 1940., his shots were generally short range, and it was a bitterly cold winter.

But yeah, the world's best military snipers today always pick iron sighted bolt actions over semi autos topped with high end glass and backup red dot sights.
 
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#123
KISS for me on my G19.

Heinie S8 0.156 rear and 0.125 front tritium.

I can understand their application and with proper training I have no doubt their effectiveness.

For my level of training and abilities the irons get it done for ROTCOM.
 
#124
shoots100 said:
the truly lazy couch commandos that don't practice with their weapons enough to become proficient with them and need a red dot sight to compensate for their laziness.
I also don't need to buy a special holster for any of my pistol's and try concealing a red dot sighted snub nose in your front pocket of your shorts or jeans.
Click to expand...
You've obviously got zero experience with the subject of discussion, probably best to quit talking whilst you're ahead.

You have to buy a special holster for every gun, dummy, it's made for the gun. It's as simple as checking "RDS cut" in the options for the holster.

If you'd spent any real time on it you'd recognize the advantages of target focus, seeing more of the target because the dot blocks less of your sight picture, speed on the move and definitely accuracy at distance...

But hey, fudds gonna fudd amirite?

If they go down, you still have irons, but let's just quit pretending... but a quality RDS and it ain't going down.

Aaron Cowan has a Type II RMR with 20,000 rounds on it and a shoulder height drop onto concrete every 500rds and it's held zero the whole time.

So go stroke your wheel gun with hi-viz sights.
 
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#125
I wasn’t red dots wagon till I got some training and insight from professionals. For me it’s red dots on practical every pistol I have that I can put them on i would suggest a closed emitter if you decide to carry imho I have both. On an appendix draw it’s about a two to three tenths difference from red dot to irons . First splits I typically average from .91-.97 on the red dots to 1.17-1.25 with the irons same shooting platform.
 
#126
I’m not reading this 2 year old thread. Just gonna hop in and say I keep exactly 1 pistol with irons so that I can stay sharp(-ish) with them. Everything else wears a dot, even some China dots.

Whatever reasons people have for not having a dot on their carry gun are likely ill-informed nonsense. No I will not elaborate.
 
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#127
I've read some of it. What I can conclude is people need to stop giving advice.

Such is the internet.

This is what I do. And since I am the center of the universe, everything else is wrong.
Everything on this side of my opinion is stupid and beneath me.
Everything on that side is ridiculous and unrealistic.
 
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#128
shoots100 said:
You guys crack me up.
After reading your eye opening retorts, It's probably just dumb luck that anyone's ever hit a target or survived any type of gunfight before red dot sights were invented.
The average gunfight takes place at/or less than 3-5 yards.
A red dot sight isn't needed for a normal person that has functioning eyes and some range time.
They are recommended for the sight impaired, which many here obviously are and I commend them for their use of an aiming aid to keep them in the fight, or the truly lazy couch commandos that don't practice with their weapons enough to become proficient with them and need a red dot sight to compensate for their laziness.
I also don't need to buy a special holster for any of my pistol's and try concealing a red dot sighted snub nose in your front pocket of your shorts or jeans.
I've been an RSO and competitor in the military and shooting sports for almost 40 years and while I've seen some issues with iron sighted pistols, most relating to fiber optic rod issues or when a pistol was used as a hammer, but rarely have I seen an iron sight pistol leave the field because of the sight's being inoperable.
I can't say the same for red dot sights.
I've seen pieces of red dot and holo sights littered all over shoot houses and competitors leaving the range because their dots aren't working and they didn't have to tool to remove the sight, so they could continue using their iron sights.
Red dot sights have their uses, but their not for everyone, just as iron sights aren't for everyone and most naysayers are speaking from experience or they would be extolling the use of red dot sights.
Click to expand...
LOL OK boomer
 
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#130
308pirate said:
What does that reticle do that a good solid index can't?

BTW, I cannot abide the circle and circle dot reticles in Holosun optics. They draw my eye in like nobody's business which is the last thing you want.

I do admit I have a 407C that I bought dirt cheap as a backup in case any of my Trijicons went down. I used the Holosun for day 1 of a shooting class and had a hell of a time staying target focused. Took it off and replaced it with an SRO overnight and right back to easily shooting with the front lens covered.
Click to expand...
Old thread, but recent changes in eyesight (astigmatism decided to randomly get worse) I found one benefit to the circle dots on holosuns is that they ‘smear’ less if I’m forced into shooting without my glasses on.

Funnily enough I’m finding that my Steyr with the trapezoid sights has become my favorite nightstand pistol purely because I can line that up more accurately without corrective lenses than dealing with a smeared dot that makes my brain want to fuck up the index
 
#132
308pirate said:
Trijicon's RMR battery life is measured in years. I went three years on my first RMR's OEM battery before I changed it, and I changed it only because I was getting nervous not because it needed it. Since I always leave mine set to auto-brightness mode, it lowers power consumption every time it's in a darkened space like in my nightstand drawer, under my shirt, or in the car's center console. The brightness adjusts automatically and very quickly.

Buy an RMR, change the battery annually, and you never have to worry about it.

Fuck Holosun and anything made in China for which there is an equal or better not-made-in-China product.
Click to expand...
Only dems & rinos buy that chicom crap.
 
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#133
hafejd30 said:
Different stroke for a different folk. Some need or want a RDS and some don’t. That doesn’t mean one or the other will be more effective. It’s on the user and the situation to determine that

While we’re on the subject of RDS being more effective, iron sights being outdated and what not

Can anyone recall the RDS or optic choice of Simo Hayha?

Surely the deadliest sniper in history must have chosen a S&B, NF ATACR or Aimpoint of some kind
Click to expand...
There is more than enough empirical evidence that RDS sights on a pistol are more effective than irons.

Your Simo Hayha argument is beyond stupid and I'm surprised that you thought it would work.
 
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#138
308pirate said:
There is more than enough empirical evidence that RDS sights on a pistol are more effective than irons.

Your Simo Hayha argument is beyond stupid and I'm surprised that you thought it would work.
Click to expand...
Since this almost 3 year old thread was revived I’ll say I’ve spent more time in the past years trying an RDS on handguns. Mostly in training where optics were on glocks, sigs and an FN

I’ll admit dots are the future and I’ll be switching to a Glock MOS likely in near future

I wouldn’t say it helped me any inside 7 yards. It did make longer shots and low light much easier to shoot. But I can now see where it does have it’s benefits

I shot the Glocks much better but that’s what I’m used to shooting. The FN 509 Tactical unfortunately was brand new from the box and wouldn’t fire so I never got to actually put rounds down range with that

Currently looking at a G26 MOS

Since it’s years later what’s the current optic to get?
 
#140
hafejd30 said:
I wouldn’t say it helped me any inside 7 yards
Click to expand...
You are either overconfirming the sight picture or not demanding higher shot accountability within the same time frame that you give yourself with irons. Start using hit factor scoring in your training and abandon par times.

hafejd30 said:
Since it’s years later what’s the current optic to get?
Click to expand...
IME the RMR is still king. I demand flawless automatic brightness adjustment on a defensive RDS and nothing I have used yet comes close. The RMR HD, I hear, is even better in that regard but it only comes with a too small 3.5 moa dot.
 
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#142
308pirate said:
I would throw in the Steiner MPS as well. I'm curious enough about it to likely buy one this year.
Click to expand...

I’ve actually used one before I got my P2… the glass is crystal clear and the dot is crisp AF. The mounting clamp looked to be a bit lacking in the clamping area/robustness department, but I do believe there’s an aftermarket solution available for that.

I have no long term useage to report on its durability and reliability, but at the square range it was damn good to use/interface with.

Kind of a bit fugly/cheap looking tho, as far as aesthetics go, but I digress.
 
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#143
308pirate said:
I would throw in the Steiner MPS as well. I'm curious enough about it to likely buy one this year.
Click to expand...
I don’t like or trust Steiner, but I’ve had less issues with the MPS than the P2. With the P2 you need to check the adhesive placement as earlier production had visible application issues at the bottom of the window, though I believe this has since been resolved. I continue to have parasitic drain issues with some of my P2 units; one was RMA replaced and another two I am tracking battery life before considering RMA.

Battery life on the Steiner is worse than the 2032 powered dots out there, but it is what it is.
 
#144
308pirate said:
You are either overconfirming the sight picture or not demanding higher shot accountability within the same time frame that you give yourself with irons. Start using hit factor scoring in your training and abandon par times.


IME the RMR is still king. I demand flawless automatic brightness adjustment on a defensive RDS and nothing I have used yet comes close. The RMR HD, I hear, is even better in that regard but it only comes with a too small 3.5 moa dot.
Click to expand...
Would you recommend the 6.5 dot?
 
#145
TheOE800 said:
I don’t like or trust Steiner, but I’ve had less issues with the MPS than the P2. With the P2 you need to check the adhesive placement as earlier production had visible application issues at the bottom of the window, though I believe this has since been resolved. I continue to have parasitic drain issues with some of my P2 units; one was RMA replaced and another two I am tracking battery life before considering RMA.
Click to expand...
The adhesive thing is true, had a long chat with John from Aimpoint about it. It’s the only Aimpoint to this day to be built/assembled by a robot and not by hand. They have already been addressing that very concern, as I saw a few P2s that had the epoxy visible. Annoying, but doesn’t affect anything negatively with the sight itself. I have yet to experience the parasitic drain, maybe that’s an older serial number, as mine is a very recent production.

I too won’t trust anything Steiner, that’s just me personally.
 
#147
I CC a SW 340 PD [IWB] imho a red dot would be ridiculous on it same with my second CC a 2.5 python both are for bad breath range where you put the front sight on center mass and detonate ....twice . PD's are not for 5 aisle distance gun battles in wallymart more of very quick draw hold what to got [for me anyway] . The 340 is my fav because it comes in at 13 oz loaded and hides very well .
 
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