I would, traditional 1911s (like a model 70 Colt) are not drop safe and never have been. You can have all the safeties engaged and it still goes boom.I for sure wouldn’t say that a Glock is safer than a 1911 that’s on safe
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View thread Contact supportI would, traditional 1911s (like a model 70 Colt) are not drop safe and never have been. You can have all the safeties engaged and it still goes boom.I for sure wouldn’t say that a Glock is safer than a 1911 that’s on safe
My current favorite (to shoot) is the Walther PDP pro. I am strongly considering getting the Steel Frame version and switching the trigger to the Pro trigger (I just like it better). My CGW Shadow 2 shows up early AugustFor me it has to do with how the grip and trigger reach fit my hand.
If you happen to have smaller hands or shorter fingers, the small hand specific PDP-F is really nice to use.
I also have the PDP Pro SD Full Size 5.1" and the PDP Match Full Size Steel Frame 5".
The steel frame Match is one heavy pistol and is a joy to shoot. I liked it more than my factory CZ Shadow 2 OR, so I sent the Shadow 2 to CGW to see if they could make it have a better trigger.
It competes hard with the current generation SIG P226 XFive, (which costs more)
What I'd like to get next is the PDP Compact Steel Frame 4" and compare that side by side to a CGW CZ Shadow 2 Compact.
Then I'll try sending the P-10 to CGW and see how it is when it comes back.
Ok. I know tremendously little about the 1911 and I should have worded that different. I’ll take your word for it.I would, traditional 1911s (like a model 70 Colt) are not drop safe and never have been. You can have all the safeties engaged and it still goes boom.
The only things I can think of, and this is going off of how glocks are built, is that either the sear is bending, allowing the striker to slingshot forward, or the striker lug is shearing. Either way though, I'm not sure how the striker defeats (what I'm assuming) the striker stop plunger (what glock erroneously called a firing pin safety) because if that's not depressed, the striker cant contact the primer. So Im totally confused. If a glock striker's lug sheared, it STILL wouldn't get anywhere near the primer... I am 100% convinced, the sig contract was given the same treatment as the ACU contract. All sorts of "labs", "independently confirmed" through "thorough testing" the superiority of the universal camo pattern... And allllll the top brass and SESes were like "Yea, I see now" while shaking their heads-and not a single one of those cocksuckers raised their hands during testing and said "But....there's no silver or grey in the woods..."Does anyone have an idea of what’s happening internally on the AD’s with no drop or trigger pull? I’m surprised that this problem extends to the m17-m18 being that they have a safety. Although o confess I don’t own one and have no idea how they work. All my SIGs are DA/SA and I love them.
100% It was the unit cost for the pistol of something below $350 versus almost $700 for the Glock.While the Sigs were shitting the bed, the glocks were just running and running, and no one said a thing lol.
Probably, but just like every program manager that ever lived, they always think of up front costs over total lifecycle costs, and it always backfires. Over all, over the service life of a glock, you'd be way ahead due to RAM (reliability, availability,maintainability) costs (not having to fix any breakages, and if you did, it's super cheap and simple) but no one listens to that.100% It was the unit cost for the pistol of something below $350 versus almost $700 for the Glock.
I am the part owner of a gun range in Houston. We have a rental fleet and just for fun I am going to do some groups of pistols in terms of reliability. We shoot the pistols to the point of failure, they all make money over their life so there comes a point when we just add a new pistol to the display rather than repair a pistol. Keep in mind these pistols are shot hard, treated poorly, rarely cleaned, ect.Probably, but just like every program manager that ever lived, they always think of up front costs over total lifecycle costs, and it always backfires. Over all, over the service life of a glock, you'd be way ahead due to RAM (reliability, availability,maintainability) costs (not having to fix any breakages, and if you did, it's super cheap and simple) but no one listens to that.
NOW tell me where they're at in costs, now that all this bullshit with the M17 is going down. Sure it was cheaper, but IS it, when your weapon system's down, and on the deadline report for who knows how many weeks? What good is price savings if you dont have the widget you paid for lol.
I am the part owner of a gun range in Houston. We have a rental fleet and just for fun I am going to do some groups of pistols in terms of reliability. We shoot the pistols to the point of failure, they all make money over their life so there comes a point when we just add a new pistol to the display rather than repair a pistol. Keep in mind these pistols are shot hard, treated poorly, rarely cleaned, ect.
Group 1 - Glock we have nine or ten in our rental fleet. We have never had to replace any of them. On our Glock 19 (most rented pistol) and Glock 43X (3rd most rented pistol) They have both gone over 100k rounds without any failures. On our Glock 34, we had to replace a main spring when it was not going fully into battery somewhere around 70k rounds. We field strip and clean every 10 to 15k rounds.
Group 2 - Not a Glock but pretty close. S&W M&P 2.0, CZ P10, Walther PDP, HK VP9. These pistols are right there with the Glock, almost. Extremely reliable and trustworthy.
Group 3 - Almost anything ever made by HK. The P30, the USP, the MK23 HK 45. They are all tanks. They all have variants that are designed to be suppressed and they function flawlessly. They never break. We do have to clean them to keep them functioning more often then Glock. We do not have a 2000 in the fleet so I can't vouch for that pistol. The SP5s last forever, there are some pins that break and need to be replaced in the 10 to 12k round range but this was by design apparently (they are sacrificial).
Group 4 - CZ hammer fired pistols like the 75 and Shadow 2, Various Sig pistols like the 226 and family derivatives. Again these are kind of like the HKs in that they last a really long time. The metal frame guns require more cleaning then the polymer but if you do it, they are just as reliable think cleaning every 2k rounds or so.
Group 5 - High end 2011s - Our second most rented pistol is the Staccato P. We are at 70k rounds through it with no failures due to breaking. We have had to replace the main spring every 6 to 8k rounds and you have to clean them based on the weight of the main spring. By that I mean if you have a 2011 from someone like Atlas, Staccato, ect to achieve a soft felt recoil they will put in a lighter main spring. The lighter the spring the more you need to clean it so that it won't get gunked up and not go into battery. As an example we can go 2 to 3k rounds on the Staccato P before cleaning compared to sub 1k on the Staccato XC.
Group 6 - Everything else made
Group 1 and 2 are in my personal circle of trust. If you need a pistol that is going to go bang no matter what the circumstance, these are my picks. Group 3 and 4 are in my circle of trust but you need to maintain them more then group 1 and 2. Group 4 and 5 are also in the circle of trust but again with more maintenance then groups 1 through 4.
I am certain that someone here has a pistol that I did not list and has had phenomenal results with them. I do not doubt that for a second. I am simply listing pistols that go through extremely high rates of fire and how they do over time. If you think that the average pistol owner shoots a couple of hundred rounds a year then the list of acceptable is probably much longer. At the end of the day, for pistols and for ARs, anything that I might use to defend myself with I value reliability over everything else.
No.So it sounds like if you want to use and abuse your pistol like a cheap hooker then the Glock 17/19/43 is the way to go.
If you want a bit more class and are willing to treat them a tiny bit nicer, the H&K VP9 and Walther PDP are excellent.
If you like taking good care of your guns and keeping them clean and lubed and such, then pretty much everything CZ and H&K and hammer fired Sigs and such are great.
If you like treating your guns with lots of care and taking really good regular care of them and swapping out springs on schedule the 2011 style would be a good choice for you.
Have you tried any experiments to see how using standard gun oil / lube as opposed to some of the higher end grease stuff affects things?
Yea, but that shit was taken care of and it never happened again. But THESE sorts of malfunctions that the M17s are experiencing are inexcusable. I understand things breaking, but firing and ending some people's careers? That's just wrong. Not enough R and D in my opinion.And thus begins the yearning for the simple days of the early M9s when slides cracked and locking blocks broke.
-Stan
Yea, but that shit was taken care of and it never happened again. But THESE sorts of malfunctions that the M17s are experiencing are inexcusable. I understand things breaking, but firing and ending some people's careers? That's just wrong. Not enough R and D in my opinion.
Seems like SIG uses the end user for R&D and issues and 85% solution that is constantly “improved”Yea, but that shit was taken care of and it never happened again. But THESE sorts of malfunctions that the M17s are experiencing are inexcusable. I understand things breaking, but firing and ending some people's careers? That's just wrong. Not enough R and D in my opinion.
Yes, we have 3 iterations of the 320 in the fleet. We have a M17 and two or three 365s.
DoD said they're issuing M17/m18 pistols even to NCO squad leaders, which is a big change from the past. It appears most if not all the claimed p320 UDs were involving holstered pistols, or those being holstered or unholstered. Not a single report of a p320 firing while on a rack in a gun safe, or on a shelf in an armory.I'm not arguing that incidents have occurred, but the article seems written to continue the narrative the author prefers. The USAF incident at Tinker happened after the weapon had slide issues at the clearing barrel, was field stripped, had a function check, put back in service, then discharged in the clearing barrel. In another incident (Army), the troop could not recall if he had chambered a round as during the preparing for duty process he took a facetime call.
So, of the nine incidents, maybe two are suspect? Maybe more? My point focuses on the USAF security forces being early adopters and fielding the M18 soonest. In active, reserve and guard units there are 20,000 security forces troops. Each has an assigned sidearm they draw each time they go on shift and get ready to assume a post. There are thousands of sidearms issued daily across the USAF and each is issued by the armorer, loaded at the clearing barrel, safety dis-engaged and then holstered for the duty shift. The process is reversed when the troop comes off duty. Rinse and repeat 24/7 and you have thousands of "transactions" daily and probably hundreds of thousands since the USAF Sigs were fielded.
Every discharge or injury is serious, I'm not disputing that fact, but I would have thought there would be many more discharge reports given the amount of weapons issued and their daily fielding.
Seems they should look at the level III retention holsters for pinch points or if the act of holstering and de-holstering moves the slide a significant amount that then introduces another variable. Adding lights with a Level III might also be something to explore.DoD said they're issuing M17/m18 pistols even to NCO squad leaders, which is a big change from the past. It appears most if not all the claimed p320 UDs were involving holstered pistols, or those being holstered or unholstered. Not a single report of a p320 firing while on a rack in a gun safe, or on a shelf in an armory.
I've owned Glocks thru gen 4, but once the striker pistols came out from H&K, Sig, CZ, I just don't have any interest in Glocks. I'n sure the Glock gen 5 are great, but I feel the above three have out-Glawked them. People like what they like. The striker pistols from Walther and Beretta look good too.
Not super inspiring is an understatement. Everyone likes to bag on the Glock trigger, but the 320 trigger is way worse.I'd say the Sig striker pistols are for the most part kind of not super inspiring in how the trigger feels if put up against the H&K VP9, CZ P10 and Walther PDP
Too bad all HK triggers suck assSo about that.
Carry a H&K USP P30 or HK45 setup in the DA/SA configuration with the decocker and manual safety.
1. You can safely decock it.
2. You can then put the safety on while it's decocked
In my opinion carrying one of those H&K pistols decocked and on safe is "more safe" than trusting the safeties on a 1911
Or just get an H&K P7
The p320 trigger is good compared to Glocks but that's not saying much. I prefer that it doesn't have a bladed trigger like my VP9. I think it was on another forum that a guy posted DEVGRU has been issuing P320 X Five models since 2019 and were using them without issues, but you'd probably have to take polls to know what they're carrying on missions because they have a variety in their equipment rooms. There was also something about the "p320 X Five with an X Carry kit" as a more recent change.Too bad all HK triggers suck ass
My son is not with DEVGRU, who is stationed west coast but they use Glock 19s for the most part.The p320 trigger is good compared to Glocks but that's not saying much. I prefer that it doesn't have a bladed trigger like my VP9. I think it was on another forum that a guy posted DEVGRU has been issuing P320 X Five models since 2019 and were using them without issues, but you'd probably have to take polls to know what they're carrying on missions because they have a variety in their equipment rooms. There was also something about the "p320 X Five with an X Carry kit" as a more recent change.
That's not what I read. CZs cannot be lumped in one group. They form three groups: striker fired, Omega hammer fired (P-07, P-09, 75 Omega, P-01 Omega), everything else. Those are listed in ascending order of maintenance needed.So it sounds like if you want to use and abuse your pistol like a cheap hooker then the Glock 17/19/43 is the way to go.
If you want a bit more class and are willing to treat them a tiny bit nicer, the H&K VP9 and Walther PDP are excellent.
If you like taking good care of your guns and keeping them clean and lubed and such, then pretty much everything CZ and H&K and hammer fired Sigs and such are great.
If you like treating your guns with lots of care and taking really good regular care of them and swapping out springs on schedule the 2011 style would be a good choice for you.
Have you tried any experiments to see how using standard gun oil / lube as opposed to some of the higher end grease stuff affects things?
Not always, mission specific, ect. There was a fight about carrying pistols at all because they are ineffectual. If you have a weapon malfunction, are out of ammo, ect they teach them to drop position in the stack and address the issue. Most of them prefer to carry more ammunition for their rifle and in general do not like pistols (any pistols).Reports are that Devgru were issued Sig 320 FCUs with Safety delete, along with two slide assys, two grip modules, etc, in the X Five/Legion/Xcarry config. Apparently DJ Shipley also mentioned it in a video. Army SF Groups have and use both Glocks and Sig m17s/m18s. Marsoc using both as well. Rumor is some elements in SoF aren't renewing Glock POs. There are also some pics of the above carrying, wearing, shooting, etc.
The militaries of Canada, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, are also using variants of the p320/m17/m18, so if it turns out the design has a dangerous flaw that causes spontaneous/uncommanded firing, it'll be exposed eventually.
The bottom line is that an anti-gun Leftist writer is the guy who writes most of the Sig p320 hit pieces, and I just saw a short summary of the "military's p320 ND issues", and none of them appear to be a p320 firing uncommanded in the holster despite the author's lies. Instead, two were at the clearing barrel, one was a troop who couldn't even remember if he'd chambered a round nor used the safety, and others were related to the act of holstering or unholstering.Not always, mission specific, ect. There was a fight about carrying pistols at all because they are ineffectual. If you have a weapon malfunction, are out of ammo, ect they teach them to drop position in the stack and address the issue.Mostof them prefer to carry more ammunition for their rifle and in general do not like pistols (any pistols).
The SF guys may have a completely different experience and thought process when it comes to hand guns. They have a very different budget to work with and longevity may not even enter into the picture when it comes to selection.
Too bad all HK triggers suck ass
No. There have been too many cases of unexplained discharges in holsters including experienced USPSA shooters, and SIG just lost a civil liability case over this problem.The bottom line is that an anti-gun Leftist writer is the guy who writes most of the Sig p320 hit pieces, and I just saw a short summary of the "military's p320 ND issues", and none of them appear to be a p320 firing uncommanded in the holster despite the author's lies. Instead, two were at the clearing barrel, one was a troop who couldn't even remember if he'd chambered a round nor used the safety, and others were related to the act of holstering or unholstering.
The thread sure made for some entertainment, but in the end it's just a Leftist anti-gun writer and some Sig haters having a circle jerk!
Huge improvements in pistol training? LOLOLOLOLWith the DoD equipping NCO unit leaders with pistols, and the huge improvements in pistol training across the branches, there will be more troops carrying pistols than ever before and they'll be more effective with them than ever before.
I want to know how many incidents are not reported though.I'm not arguing that incidents have occurred, but the article seems written to continue the narrative the New Hampshire author prefers. The USAF incident at Tinker happened after the weapon had slide issues at the clearing barrel, was field stripped, had a function check, put back in service, then discharged in the clearing barrel. In another incident (Army), the troop could not recall if he had chambered a round as during the preparing for duty process he took a facetime call.
So, of the nine incidents, maybe two are suspect? Maybe more? My point focuses on the USAF security forces being early adopters and fielding the M18 soonest. In active, reserve and guard units there are 20,000 security forces troops. Each has an assigned sidearm they draw each time they go on shift and get ready to assume a post. There are thousands of sidearms issued daily across the USAF and each is issued by the armorer, loaded at the clearing barrel, safety dis-engaged and then holstered for the duty shift. The process is reversed when the troop comes off duty. Rinse and repeat 24/7 and you have thousands of "transactions" daily and probably hundreds of thousands since the USAF Sigs were fielded.
Every discharge or injury is serious, I'm not disputing that fact, but I would have thought there would be many more discharge reports given the amount of weapons issued and their daily fielding.
DoD said they're issuing M17/m18 pistols even to NCO squad leaders, which is a big change from the past. It appears most if not all the claimed p320 UDs were involving holstered pistols, or those being holstered or unholstered. Not a single report of a p320 firing while on a rack in a gun safe, or on a shelf in an armory.
Pistols in a rack in a gun safe or armory generally are stored with an empty chamber.
Yes, I have one loaded pistol in my safe with a round in the chamber but the rest of them are cleared, hammer or striker released and stored.
I have Sig P226 Mk 25 threaded barrel and a pair of Walther PPQ's a .22LR and a 9mm Navy model . The sig broke and was repaired under warranty, the Walthers have been flawless.
I'll buy another Walther - a PDP long before a P320 or P365.
There is a used M11 Sig in the LGS for decent price though...
Probably the best argument for owning one, along with the fact that I expect the mags will become increasingly common and used by other platforms much as the Beretta mags were/areI'm probably going to keep an M17 and M18 as they are our current issued military weapons and I kind of like having one to be familiar with it.
Much like I had a Beretta 92FS for the same reason.
The stumbling point on the Sig M11, is the threaded barrel is an additional expense.I'm probably going to keep an M17 and M18 as they are our current issued military weapons and I kind of like having one to be familiar with it.
Much like I had a Beretta 92FS for the same reason.
That being said, you should buy a Walther PDP-F then a PDP Match then a PDP Metal Frame
I think you'd have more fun with those than another M11 Sig
To get a threaded barrel installed in the PDP 4.5 length, you're in a pro series pistol with a $ 230 price increase.
Yea, but that shit was taken care of and it never happened again. But THESE sorts of malfunctions that the M17s are experiencing are inexcusable. I understand things breaking, but firing and ending some people's careers? That's just wrong. Not enough R and D in my opinion.
Please share some. I have seen the drop videos. I haven't seen videos of them just going off in the holster with nobody touching them. I do want to see these videos.Nope, this is not a drop safety thing. This is a striker dropping all on it's own, while no human is even touching it thing. There are videos of this happening.
It's a shame when quitting p320s that agencies won't instead go with CZ P10, HK vp, or even the p365 Fuse. And there are the Walthers, Berettas, and M&Ps. Glock is the only one with that fucked up grip angle and overall poor ergonomics, but I'd almost bet Glock won't let anyone beat their pricing- remember, coke and strippers!A buddy of mine is a Trooper with the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. I don’t know specifics but I guess they’ve had a few Sig 320s discharge unintentionally. They are pulling all 320s from service and replacing with Glock 47s. Supposedly the 320 won’t even be approved for personal purchase and carry either.
I was getting my AXG ready to go to the range from my safe.
I keep my pistols on a shelf, in a rack, the rack generally holding them muzzle down, blackstrap toward person at the safe door.
I inserted full mag of 17, racked the slide, than had to look around for my extra round to top the magazine.
I put the pistol back in the rack.
I didn’t realize with a magazine the butt was so heavy it caused the pistol to overcome the muzzle counterweight.
As I looked for the spare round I watched in slow motion horror as the rear of the pistol sank in its rack rotating the barrel back toward the safe door and me.
I should have ran screaming like a girl but I stupidly tried catching it, feeling it fumble through my hands as it now fell through space - lucky one of my fingers didn’t end up in the trigger guard.
After passing through my hands like a greased pig it stabilized - blackstrap square to edge of steel safe door jamb.
It hit hard enough to mark the cerakote but did not go bang.
It was enough drop test for me. I’m sure that one has good sear interface and the trigger is light enough not to overcome its springs.
If I want an absolutely safe pistol I will carry a 1911 with its three different safeties.
How any striker fire gets called safer than a 1911 escapes me.
It all depends on user in most cases.
The CZ p10 series, the M&P, and all the other Glock 'clones' are only partially cocked, but all with enough energy to ignite a primer if safeties were to fail. The AR-15 isn't truly safe either- if struck hard enough on the buttstock it could fire. I think it's H&K who improved the design of the 416/mr556 to not have that safety concern.to be fair, isnt glock the only striker pistol that is "half cocked"? all the others are fully cocked and on the sear and that does both me a bit.