Military releases report on Sig M17/18 accidental discharge

#152
oldrifleman said:
All that and I have never had an issue any of my Sigs (even my Mosquito runs great with plenty of oil and a diet of mini mags).
I am in the camp that is pretty sure almost every one of these “incidents “was solely the fault of the idiot “controlling “ the pistol.
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I have a P320 that I got right when they first came out. It's been 100% reliable with lots of rounds down range and an all around great gun. It was my EDC carry for many years but I did just recently hit the pause button on EDC. I'm not convinced these incidents are gun design issues, but I also can't rule it out.

So I changed it's role to range gun. This mess will take years to sort out, if it even does. In the meantime, I'm just not taking the chance on EDC. Now that it's status is range toy, I'm thinking of changing calibers for fun. I mean, it's still a great gun and maybe I have a unicorn but the trigger is nice. Or maybe the original trigger like mine is the nice one and the one that people say is terrible is the new one? Not sure...mine is a great gun and nothing like the complaints I read about here.

EDIT TO ADD:
I also really like the original features mine has before the fat finger retards complained and got Sig to reduce the size of the slide catch and take down levers. I never understood why people had issues with those, guess they are sausage finger fatbodies or don't know how to grip a gun but I love that big takedown lever, works great as a gas pedal style recoil reducer. The change in the slide stop was also dumb. My original design model is awesome.
 
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#153
atomic41 said:
I have a P320 that I got right when they first came out. It's been 100% reliable with lots of rounds down range and an all around great gun. It was my EDC carry for many years but I did just recently hit the pause button on EDC. I'm not convinced these incidents are gun design issues, but I also can't rule it out.

So I changed it's role to range gun. This mess will take years to sort out, if it even does. In the meantime, I'm just not taking the chance on EDC. Now that it's status is range toy, I'm thinking of changing calibers for fun. I mean, it's still a great gun and maybe I have a unicorn but the trigger is nice. Or maybe the original trigger like mine is the nice one and the one that people say is terrible is the new one? Not sure...mine is a great gun and nothing like the complaints I read about here.

EDIT TO ADD:
I also really like the original features mine has before the fat finger retards complained and got Sig to reduce the size of the slide catch and take down levers. I never understood why people had issues with those, guess they are sausage finger fatbodies or don't know how to grip a gun but I love that big takedown lever, works great as a gas pedal style recoil reducer. The change in the slide stop was also dumb. My original design model is awesome.
Click to expand...
Is your trigger flat?
 
#154
Terry Cross said:
After the first handful of reports landed in their legal inbox, Sig started a major push to look at all the conditions involved including holsters.

Since then, Sig has purchased thousands of dollars worth of mostly Safariland holsters to analyze. They have sectioned, dissassembled, measured and destroyed a shit ton of holsters trying to find a culprit. They have even X-rayed the holsters with the pistol in place looking for conflicts with the trigger.

They have gone to great lengths so far trying to pin the issue on the holster manufacturer and have come up empty.

I have heard that Safariland had basically done the same thing behind closed doors to see if they missed something during the holster design and to prepare for any finger pointing.

I have also heard that the exact holsters involved in each incident have not been disassembled or thoroughly examined because they are still part of the evidence in the court cases. I guess that makes sense.

6000 series ALS/SLS duty holsters are pretty closely molded to the actual gun profile without a lot of internal gaps or voids. The tactical holsters in the same series have larger voids and gaps internally around the gun but have raised guides molded in to keep the gun from moving in the holster. I don't think it would be very easy to have a foreign object in the holster and still be able to fully holster and lock the pistol into the ALS block.

I guess they could still come up with something at this point but with legal fees being billed by the hour and bad press making their brand hemorrhage dollars every day, I would think they would have announced a non-Sig culprit if there was one to be found or even suspected.
Click to expand...

atomic41 said:
I have a P320 that I got right when they first came out. It's been 100% reliable with lots of rounds down range and an all around great gun. It was my EDC carry for many years but I did just recently hit the pause button on EDC. I'm not convinced these incidents are gun design issues, but I also can't rule it out.

So I changed it's role to range gun. This mess will take years to sort out, if it even does. In the meantime, I'm just not taking the chance on EDC. Now that it's status is range toy, I'm thinking of changing calibers for fun. I mean, it's still a great gun and maybe I have a unicorn but the trigger is nice. Or maybe the original trigger like mine is the nice one and the one that people say is terrible is the new one? Not sure...mine is a great gun and nothing like the complaints I read about here.

EDIT TO ADD:
I also really like the original features mine has before the fat finger retards complained and got Sig to reduce the size of the slide catch and take down levers. I never understood why people had issues with those, guess they are sausage finger fatbodies or don't know how to grip a gun but I love that big takedown lever, works great as a gas pedal style recoil reducer. The change in the slide stop was also dumb. My original design model is awesome.
Click to expand...

Similar situation here- I only own one early p320 Compact. I have a 226, vp9, and p365, so I'm covered for EDC and home defense.
 
#155
atomic41 said:
I also really like the original features mine has before the fat finger retards complained and got Sig to reduce the size of the slide catch and take down levers. I never understood why people had issues with those, guess they are sausage finger fatbodies or don't know how to grip a gun but I love that big takedown lever, works great as a gas pedal style recoil reducer. The change in the slide stop was also dumb. My original design model is awesome.
Click to expand...
Have you shot a current 320, and if so does the trigger pull feel better or worse in your opinion?
 
#157
ToddM said:
This is the correct answer, even *IF* they are drop safe, there's so many other valid reasons to avoid Sig like the plague in 2024. They don't even wait years to revise a product, most of their recent products got major revisions the first year or two. The MPX was on Gen 2 before the first year was up, after that Sig stopped using Gen #'s because by now they'd be on about Gen 8. So many firing pin, feed ramp, extractor/barrel nut changes it's ridiculous. Even Sig's CS can't keep track of what gen parts you need half the time :) Sig seems to really struggle to figure out how to get a gun to cycle properly recoil/gas etc. wise.

$3000 MCX's with a 4 MOA standard of accuracy, that they reportedly test at 25yds and extrapolate........ridiculous.

Sig does some neat designs, but their execution is horrible, and it's not things that don't show up for thousands and thousands of rounds, it's out of the gate just oozes bad design. I will say usually their CS isn't bad, and they are pretty fast at shipping/replacing stuff, but I suspect they get a huge amount of practice :) I have however ran into many times they refused to sell me parts, esp. for the MPX that I'd consider typical spare parts, ejectors, extractors etc. saying they don't sell them and if you break one you have to return the entire gun. Beyond that their parts prices are INSANE. $800 for a barrel (with a 4 MOA standard), $700 for a carrier/bolt assembly, $550 for an upper, $100 for a charging handle, $200 for a gas valve, etc.

MCX/MPX have such a fast/violent bolt speed they eat triggers like fat kids eat cake. Gieselle tried for 3 years to make an MPX trigger, they finally caved and now give you 35/45/55% stronger recoil springs to try and keep their trigger together. MCX's forward assist housing is soft plastic, I see so many posts of these cracked/stripped etc.

365 had firing pin problems and spring rate problems out of the gate

P210 US version had problems breaking guide rods.

First Gen 320 X-five's the captured guide spring setup spring rate was so wrong that it didn't have enough spring to go into battery reliably, it had such a high rising rate it wouldn't run the slide far enough to eject/strip a new round. Everyone I knew running them bought 1911 sized guide rods and ran non-captured springs, fixed the problem immediately. The front sight height was so bad on the early versions that the rear sight would fly apart because you had to adjust it past it's limit to zero the gun.

Then there's Sig's love of using proprietary optics mounts.....

It goes on and on.
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And what ever happened to their really cool 556's?
 
#159
Tokay444 said:
Is your trigger flat?
Click to expand...

No it's the original trigger which is curved. I'm not familiar with the flat ones.


ut755ln said:
Have you shot a current 320, and if so does the trigger pull feel better or worse in your opinion?
Click to expand...

I have not shot a newer one but am curious because my trigger is nice. In fact, I never got the recall work done because I read some people talking about how they did get the work done and the new trigger was not as good. FFWD to today and I have not heard of anyone with an original trigger complain about it. Doesn't mean they are all good, just saying I haven't heard about it.

Again, mine might be a unicorn and all the other ones suck? I don't know and I'm not going to play fanboy and defend the company. I have a sample size of one so that's what I will speak to. Everything about my gun is good to go and it's unmolested by the revisions. "pureblood" :ROFLMAO:
 
#160
atomic41 said:
No it's the original trigger which is curved. I'm not familiar with the flat ones.




I have not shot a newer one but am curious because my trigger is nice. In fact, I never got the recall work done because I read some people talking about how they did get the work done and the new trigger was not as good. FFWD to today and I have not heard of anyone with an original trigger complain about it. Doesn't mean they are all good, just saying I haven't heard about it.

Again, mine might be a unicorn and all the other ones suck? I don't know and I'm not going to play fanboy and defend the company. I have a sample size of one so that's what I will speak to. Everything about my gun is good to go and it's unmolested by the revisions. "pureblood" :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Then yeah, yours in not “drop safe”.
 
#161
My 320 is also in its unmolested configuration, with the original curved trigger. I’m not a pistol guy, but I have been accused of exhibiting trigger snob tendencies. The trigger in my 320 is, usable. The Canik SF Elite trigger is exceptional- in a pistol that retails for less than $500. Any pistol manufacturer selling a pistol for more than $500, with a trigger worse than the Canik SF Elite, should be ashamed.

No, the original 320 trigger is, apparently, not drop safe. So… I don’t drop the gun.
 
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#162
hlee said:
The Canik SF Elite trigger is exceptional- in a pistol that retails for less than $500. Any pistol manufacturer selling a pistol for more than $500, with a trigger worse than the Canik SF Elite, should be ashamed.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree, but could part of that be that it is significantly cheaper to manufacture stuff in Turkey than in USA?
 
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#163
Tokay444 said:
Then yeah, yours in not “drop safe”.
Click to expand...

Maybe not and I certainly won't argue against that. I will cite my experience with it which is a case study in rough EDC conditions. What you are about to read is my experience and not a defense of the gun design so please before anyone wants to pick another fight trying to pile on Sig, IDGAF and won't engage because I'm not a fanboy. Trash them all you want, I don't care and won't defend them.

I wore mine mtn biking and running daily for years. That's thousands of miles of running and biking (including jumping and some crashing) with a gun that is supposed to be an issue. That's thousands of miles of a gun in a constant state of jarring, jostling, shaking, bouncing, etc. Not exactly the normal EDC conditions. I never had an issue, but then again I did not do the industry drop tests.

Having said all that, I did retire it to range duty only. Just because I have not had an issue under the harsh conditions that I have put it through, does not mean that it can't happen and that is in the back of my mind. I'm not scared of the gun, but will play it safe just like I'm not scared of crashing but will wear my seatbelt. I have plenty of good EDC options so switching it up is no big deal.
 
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#164
Well, it’s only an issue in very specific circumstance, falling on hard durometer, muzzle up, grip and slide impact at the same time, from a specific height. It’s not even an industry drop test. The original passed all those.
 
#165
Interesting conversation, Many of us grew up in a time where we were taught how to safely handle a firearm and dropping them was not part of the set of behaviors that were allowed. We grew up with guns that had zero of the "safety" add-ons that mess with the ability to have a decent trigger. I normally carry a 1911 without any of that stuff and it is perfectly safe if you treat it as a potentially dangerous item. Point is if you do something stupid with a gun you reap the rewards of getting shot. Keep the bugger finger away from the trigger and don't thrown things and you will be fine!
 
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#166
oldrifleman said:
Interesting conversation, Many of us grew up in a time where we were taught how to safely handle a firearm and dropping them was not part of the set of behaviors that were allowed. We grew up with guns that had zero of the "safety" add-ons that mess with the ability to have a decent trigger. I normally carry a 1911 without any of that stuff and it is perfectly safe if you treat it as a potentially dangerous item. Point is if you do something stupid with a gun you reap the rewards of getting shot. Keep the bugger finger away from the trigger and don't thrown things and you will be fine!
Click to expand...
I echoed similar sentiments after Stogger’s Staccato drop videos, and was told that if I haven’t been DQ’d from a match for dropping a gun, I’m not competing enough. Guess I’ll just wait longer.
 
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#168
Tokay444 said:
I echoed similar sentiments after Stogger’s Staccato drop videos, and was told that if I haven’t been DQ’d from a match for dropping a gun, I’m not competing enough. Guess I’ll just wait longer.
Click to expand...
Did those dick weeds really say that? If someone is that unsafe at a match or at our range, there would be a fist fight or worse.
 
#170
IMG_7759.jpeg

IMG_7760.jpeg

IMG_7761.jpeg
 
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#171
Yeah but at least you stand a better chance of living. I tend to stay away from anyone who accepts that sort of nonsense as an accepted practice. My opinion is that anyone who is DQd should be banned for a period of time and not even be credited with being there.
 
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#175

FEBRUARY 26, 2009​

SERVICE BULLETIN FOR ALS™ HOLSTER USERS​

Safariland has been made aware of a situation where the Provo, UT Police Department experienced malfunctions while training with the 6360 ALS holster on the range.

The range in question is covered with approximately 4-6” deep, loose pea gravel. The drills used called for the officers to draw, go to a prone position and fire, roll from one side to another and fire, and finally spin into a supine position and fire.

While doing such drills on a surface as described above, substantial amounts of gravel entered the body of the holster.

Officers then holstered their weapons, and in some cases debris had lodged between the body of the holster, and the ALS mechanism causing sticky operation, and in some cases jamming when the recommended clearing drill described below was not performed.

The recommended course of action if you suspect large amounts of debris may have entered your empty holster is as follows:

  1. make sure the holster is in a vertical position (stand or kneel)
  2. Operate the ALS relates lever several times, satisfying yourself that the mechanism is free of debris and working properly
  3. Holster your weapon normally

It should be noted that neither Provo PD nor Safariland has been able to duplicate this situation with a weapon in the holster.
 
#176
oldrifleman said:
Shooters should treat firearms with respect and not do things that lead to dropped guns! You call it practical shooting, but disarming yourself is a great way practice genetic selection.
Click to expand...

I guess our military should not train for combat then, because intense training will at some point involve a dropped gun.

I guess our military should not engage in combat operations, because people drop guns in combat.

I guess no one in America should hunt, because people have dropped guns while hunting before.

I guess Rob Leatham should quit his shooting career because he personally told me a story about a time he dropped a gun.

Fuck off you Boomer Fudds. Turn off Fox News, put down your phone, and go outside and touch grass. Live in the real world a bit.
 
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#177

NOVEMBER 8, 2021​

Safariland Duty Holsters 7000 Series for Streamlight TLR 7 and similar sized
light attachments
Recently, Safariland was made aware of an incident in which an officer’s duty weapon was discharged during a violent struggle with a suspect. As part of its review, the agency decided to discontinue use of the holster, Model 7360RDS with TLR7 light attachment, and notified us about the incident and potential issue with the holster’s retention.
 
#179
I posted the Safariland stuff above to provide some proof that debris/foreign objects DO get into holsters and cause issues, including UDs- It can't be repeated enough: Every year LEOs, Troops, and Consumers have UDs, most of which are NDs, some of which are probably ADs. To think that all of these P320 lawsuits are "ADs only" is absurd. Of course a percentage of those lawsuits are of NDs, and a portion of those NDs are with people who KNOW they had an ND but are lying it's an AD- for the money.


That said, the first two issues below are objective facts:

1) actual user caused NDs- fact of life, can and has happened with almost all guns
2) debris/foreign objects in holsters causing trigger press and UDs- proven fact it happens
3) a potential issue with the p320 itself that is resulting in UDs- hopefully soon we'll have a definitive answer- but a specific cause may never be realized. (It sucks that Sig isn't being given access for thorough testing, to most of the p320s and holsters in these lawsuit cases, but it is what it is)
 
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#181
MK20 said:
I guess our military should not train for combat then, because intense training will at some point involve a dropped gun.

I guess our military should not engage in combat operations, because people drop guns in combat.

I guess no one in America should hunt, because people have dropped guns while hunting before.

I guess Rob Leatham should quit his shooting career because he personally told me a story about a time he dropped a gun.

Fuck off you Boomer Fudds. Turn off Fox News, put down your phone, and go outside and touch grass. Live in the real world a bit.
Click to expand...
I haven’t been in combat, so I can’t speak to that point other than to say it makes sense that guns might get dropped because shit is going down.

If you’re so into a game that you’re ok with dropping your gun, it might be time to step back for a moment.
 
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#182
Training is great and should teach you what not to do and what to do each and every time. The Provo incident points to an issue with the holster design. I understand that there are a limited number of approved holsters. It appears that Safariland should be the one under scrutiny as they seem to be the common denominator with Sig just along for the ride. And I have been around a number of Operators and police in my years and none of the have been trained to drop their weapons, in fact they see a drop as weakness and practice how to do the move without a drop and teach it!
 
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#183
Coffee_and_Pipes said:
I haven’t been in combat, so I can’t speak to that point other than to say it makes sense that guns might get dropped because shit is going down.

If you’re so into a game that you’re ok with dropping your gun, it might be time to step back for a moment.
Click to expand...
I bet NASCAR drivers say something along the lines of “If you don’t put yer car into a wall ‘bout ever other race, you ain’t drivin fass ‘nuf.” Same mentality…
 
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#184
MK20 said:
I guess our military should not train for combat then, because intense training will at some point involve a dropped gun.

I guess our military should not engage in combat operations, because people drop guns in combat.
Click to expand...
If in combat or in training a Marine drops a rifle and there is a discharge, there is trouble. If someone is injured via the drop and discharge then there is a world of hurt. Why wasn't your rifle on safety? Why weren't you using your sling?

To the point above, in a USPSA event I get that people want to win. Having said that I do not like what they count as holsters (especially the magnet bullshit and the whole open holster cuts. I think the least safe competition holster I use is a Trex Ragnarok (no retention other than friction). With practice it is not that hard to get to A/Master level. You can absolutely do that while being safe and not cutting corners.
 
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#187
Nothing wrong with the US versions of P22x as opposed to the folded slides from Germany, these are the only Sigs I own and one W. German 220 but mine run flawlessly and will be my SHTF pistols when and if.........
But you are right the new regime is a different group all together.
 
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#188
mewillis said:
Nothing wrong with the US versions of P22x as opposed to the folded slides from Germany, these are the only Sigs I own and one W. German 220 but mine run flawlessly and will be my SHTF pistols when and if.........
But you are right the new regime is a different group all together.
Click to expand...

Everything wrong with them. When Sig decided to use milled slides 20+ years ago they elected not to heat treat them. I went through three slides before they figured it out. The slides would peen in the firing pin area from hammer impact. These are supposed gun experts.
 
#189
You may be right about 20 years ago but as you said they figured it out, however all brands update and designs change perhaps you noticed G is on it's 5th generation, Beretta 92's, JMBrowning's 1911's while the design was great, in some brands it's perfected over time, the list goes on. Name which brand that doesn't modify and update you should stick with that as 99% must not meet your standards. While Sig is truly the Beta tester brand there are others out there also, they just do it less obviously. And don't forget all the brands that just copy others innovative designs.
 
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#190
mewillis said:
You may be right about 20 years ago but as you said they figured it out, however all brands update and designs change perhaps you noticed G is on it's 5th generation, Beretta 92's, JMBrowning's 1911's while the design was great, in some brands it's perfected over time, the list goes on. Name which brand that doesn't modify and update you should stick with that as 99% must not meet your standards. While Sig is truly the Beta tester brand there are others out there also, they just do it less obviously. And don't forget all the brands that just copy others innovative designs.
Click to expand...
It was about 30 years ago and of course Sig figured it out pretty quickly. Sig has a very broad line of firearms and should be compared to the other 3-4 biggest manufacturers in the industry- Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Remington. Of the big four, Sig has the fewest models implicated in safety issues, recalls, etc.

Sure Sig USA has put out their share of duds, but not any more than the other big three above. And, in the last 20 years Sig has been more innovative than all three of those other manufacturers combined.

But the company that perfected the art of beta testing by customers, unannounced rolling changes, and recalls called 'voluntary upgrades' - is Glock. The g19 alone has had at least 2 or 3 'voluntary upgrades' related to potential Unintended Discharges. Anyone who researches the WayBack Machine and a bunch of other good but obscure sources will learn that Glock didn't even settle on a frame rail length until mid gen 3- that's nearly 20 years of development.

I love the way H&K doesn't rush their R&D, testing, etc., but the downside to that is rarely bringing guns to market before many of their competitors have already done it- example is the p365/micro market.

I only own one p320 and I've already said I won't be carrying it, and hopefully Sig can figure out what the root cause(s) are to the actual ADs. The NDs are on the handlers of those particular p320s.

I'll be adding a CZ P10 model to my HK vp9 and p365 X-Macro, so I'm set for pistols. My classic Sig is a keeper.
 
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#191
Milf Dots said:
I love the way H&K doesn't rush their R&D, testing, etc., but the downside to that is rarely bringing guns to market before many of their competitors have already done it- example is the p365/micro market.
Click to expand...

They finally made a really nice one.
But we can't have it because it's only for the German Uniform Hangers.
In true H&K tradition, they refuse to import it here, make it here or sell it to anyone else it seems.
Maybe in 10 years when they are hard up for cash again because...
And they realize nobody is all that hot over their 20 year old models, they might just let us have it.

On the plus side they finally got with the times on the VP9 and at least made that one optics ready so that's a win.
 
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#192
mewillis said:
You may be right about 20 years ago but as you said they figured it out, however all brands update and designs change perhaps you noticed G is on it's 5th generation, Beretta 92's, JMBrowning's 1911's while the design was great, in some brands it's perfected over time, the list goes on. Name which brand that doesn't modify and update you should stick with that as 99% must not meet your standards. While Sig is truly the Beta tester brand there are others out there also, they just do it less obviously. And don't forget all the brands that just copy others innovative designs.
Click to expand...

People been making semi automatic pistols for 100 years at that point. A learning curve is unacceptable. Sig has no business being in the firearm business and getting money thrown at them by our government.
 
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#193
W54/XM-388 said:
On the plus side they finally got with the times on the VP9 and at least made that one optics ready so that's a win.
Click to expand...

But, but, but....the VP9 couldn't survive the MAC mud/throw at plate test (posts vid). Or check out what happens when they hit it with the mallet... :ROFLMAO: .

Point being everybody always hating on something...

Every model and every individual small arm should be closely scrutinized and selected for task at hand. I see that some cats are dragging the 2011/1911 into it. Fuck man, that's a WIDE swath of guns. Some are, some are not...depends how they're made. Am I right, people who remember Series 70 Vs 80 Colts, Rem Walker and XMark triggers, Hk 416 firing pin safety, and recipients of Rem 870 and AR15 floating firing pin horror stories?

Not my take means anything, I can't help but think the Sig 320 thing is a perfect storm. Sig's rep as one of the most greedy front-runners in a toxic as fuck industry; using sub-par MIM (note: not all MIM is bad...i.e. USP extractors), valuing high volume and using the consumer as beta testers has come home to roost. They had 1/2 million units out before the recall. In a society where "it wasn't MY fault", the instances of a say 1 in 200,000 or 0.0005% (just guessing) failure occurring ON VIDEO (cause everyone's on camera all the time now) are a sign of things to come.

I think you will see more of this, and not just Sig (but probably a lot more Sig too).


Also.... LOL at the MCX/MPX crowd that forgot/don't know how many iterations and problems those guns have had along the way (# 200 rounds fired and no problems):rolleyes:
 
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