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Military releases report on Sig M17/18 accidental discharge
- Thread starter ut755ln
- Start date
There are three more off the top of my head. I'll see if I can find them. There was a video that had them all, talking about a law suit, but I cant find it now. Stand by.
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Here's one I never seen. The others are a female LEO walking out back in the parking lot of her station, and it AD'ed while in her holster on camera. And now, of course the other two just dropped out of my head. I'm still looking.
Interesting quick check, is perhaps the specific type / brand of holster the common link in some of these cases?
When you, “replace the mainspring…”, could you mean recoil spring, or actually the main spring?
This is funny! Your use of the word videos by definition means more than one case. And your description "this is a striker dropping all on it's own, while no human is even touching it thing" by definition means p320s that are firing while motionless and not in contact in any way with a human.
Those are the videos I want to see- of p320s firing while motionless and untouched- because of "striker dropping all on it's own"!
I've seen some of the p320 vids, read some p320 stories, and I know about the one recent jury verdict against Sig, but I doubt there's any credible unedited video of a p320 firing while sitting motionless and untouched, but maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe you'd care to edit your above post?
Isn't being in a holster, untouched? I don't know how much more untouched you want lol. So them AD'ing while in a holster somehow changes things and exonerates them?
I think what could be happening is a combination of a few things, and here are some obvious facts and then my theory:
1) Sig's p320 has a very short trigger pull
2) Sig's p320 has no bladed trigger safety
3) Is the width of the p320 trigger wider than all the other striker service pistols in the U.S.? (which if true, would add to #4 below)
4) Maybe some molded holsters are too narrow in the trigger area, and holster flex along with slight pistol movement inside the holster when wearer is moving- is pressing on the trigger
Hopefully there will be a definitive answer at some point. Because I have other striker pistols, I think I'll store my p320 loaded- long term- and occasionally check for a fired round. Better safe than sorry.
1) Sig's p320 has a very short trigger pull
2) Sig's p320 has no bladed trigger safety
3) Is the width of the p320 trigger wider than all the other striker service pistols in the U.S.? (which if true, would add to #4 below)
4) Maybe some molded holsters are too narrow in the trigger area, and holster flex along with slight pistol movement inside the holster when wearer is moving- is pressing on the trigger
Hopefully there will be a definitive answer at some point. Because I have other striker pistols, I think I'll store my p320 loaded- long term- and occasionally check for a fired round. Better safe than sorry.
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I just pointed out your description isn't supported by any videos like you claimed, and not a single claimant is even alleging things happened exactly like you described. It's human nature that people will exaggerate at times, but you were pretty specific in that post so I wanted to have some fun by exposing it. It's always amusing when a claim is made, and then the proceeding evidence- videos in this case- never show the key things made in the original claim.
Even if it turns out the p320 has some design issue or actual defect, the above is still true.
You are quite possibly onto something.
Most of the videos show someone wearing them in a holster and actively moving around when it goes off.
Says to me you are onto something.
Especially since most of the incidents come from a specific type of duty holster with a specific type of tightening pinch.
Would putting a narrower trigger on it fix the issue?
S&W claims the action of pulling the trigger also performs some cocking function on the M&P.
At least that is the BS the armorers were spreading to say “It’s safe. It’s like a revolver, it’s double action!”
I didn’t care don’t pull the trigger it didn’t go bang liked the .45 M&P better than the .40 S&W Sig 226 DAK it replaced.
We all know that every year there are LEOs and Troops who have NDs, just like with the general population of gun users. We also know people have lied about their NDs being ADs in the past and will in the future.
With other pistols we're aware of NDs that were a result of foreign objects getting in holsters and pressing triggers, things like clothing cords, keys, debris, wires, etc.
Based on stats alone, some of the p320 lawsuits are almost certainly actual handler NDs, but I also think some of them are cases in which there might have been an object in the trigger. And then there might be what I posted in #113 above.
But the p365 is a great design, and the HK VP, CZ P10, M&P 2.0, Walther PPQ/PDP, Glock gens 3~5, are all great pistols.
With other pistols we're aware of NDs that were a result of foreign objects getting in holsters and pressing triggers, things like clothing cords, keys, debris, wires, etc.
Based on stats alone, some of the p320 lawsuits are almost certainly actual handler NDs, but I also think some of them are cases in which there might have been an object in the trigger. And then there might be what I posted in #113 above.
But the p365 is a great design, and the HK VP, CZ P10, M&P 2.0, Walther PPQ/PDP, Glock gens 3~5, are all great pistols.
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Honest to God Chief, it was half loaded; I never touched it, it just went off by itself. Famous words of troops f'ing around with their M-60s.
I'd like to see more research done on the Level III holster and if it's rigidity, or lack thereof, along with flexing movements introduce a variable.
Not sure I mentioned anything about being motionless, but nonetheless, these things are going off with no one touching them. You can pick apart the minutia all you want, but would you give this firearm to a relative or close friend to carry loaded every day? I know I wouldn't. Overall you get my point, but it seem whenever someone says something on here, theres always some poster that gives zero allowance for a minor amount of 'artistic license' or exaggeration to make a point and suddenly becomes Spock from Star Trek. You can 'but you said this' all day till the cows come home but the fact will still remain that this platform is doing things no other leo sidearm has done, and there are a lot of officers claiming it, and it has nothing to do with some sort of made up anti sig sentiment, because most people in the shooting sports knows sig makes good shit. I mean if an officer cant even walk to her cruiser without getting shot in her leg, there obviously has to be a design update somewhere on this pistol. And thats my whole point really.
No. Stuffing a gun into an obstructed holster is actually an ND. Not an AD.
The videos show guns going off while getting out of a car or while bending over.
While I would like to see some serious investigations into the holster, this would have me very concerned if I carried a Sig P320 daily. I own one. It is a great pistol. Ergonomic. Easy to shoot accurately. But going off in the holster because I bend over or get up out of my car seat the wrong way is no bueno.
While I would like to see some serious investigations into the holster, this would have me very concerned if I carried a Sig P320 daily. I own one. It is a great pistol. Ergonomic. Easy to shoot accurately. But going off in the holster because I bend over or get up out of my car seat the wrong way is no bueno.
2017, fixed the drop safety issue.
If I am understanding correctly, and I may not be, the discharges while holstered are post-2017.
Sig revised the trigger to pass a different drop test that wasn't originally part off the military drop test criteria, and offered a voluntary recall to anyone with the original trigger. This is not that.
P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | SIG SAUER
The P320® Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost.
www.sigsauer.com
Enter your serial number
But what are the odds that the 5 or 6 videos I've seen the pistol AD'ing all having the same exact holster?
Your whole post is a false premise because we can't assume that ANY of those "5 or 6" were ADs and not NDs- so far no one has proven the pistols are firing without something in the holsters depressing the triggers.
You'd have us believe for the first time in history of LEO, Troop, and civilian gun usage, the p320 is the only model where those people are all 100 percent truthful and where none of them had an ND that they're claiming was only an AD. Every year people have NDs with pistols- Glocks, M&Ps, 1911s, Rugers, FNs, SA, Sig, Beretta, Walther, Taurus.
Furthermore, in American policing, there are very few holsters formally approved by agencies for duty use by uniformed officers- they're usually a Safariland model and many of them are for weapons with lights so they have those huge gaps all the way around the perimeter.
You only want to believe the p320 is somehow 'dropping the striker while motionless and untouched', and you keep ignoring all the much more likely possibilities I and others have posted that there is probably a combination of factors and truthfulness levels to the legal claims- because you're emotionally committed to the narrative the p320 is defective and unsafe, and therefore no one can have an Negligent Discharge with one, only ADs.
I never said that other brands of pistols haven't had AD's, nor have I said that no one lies or exaggerates the truth. What I am claiming, is that I personally, havent seen other brands shoot while in the holster, whether touched, untouched, or something lodged in the holster. (that, up until three years ago, I have NEVER seen EVER, with any pistol, in any agency) This is the only pistol that I have seen this with, that's all. And if allllllll the other guns you claim do the same thing (ride in an agency approved holster, while not be touched) then I would be surprised. Though, I'm not really requiring you to show me video proof, I'll just take you at your word. What's odd is, that whatever somehow found its way in these holster, why is this the first time I'm hearing about it? I watch a ton of gun videos on youtube every day (plays in the background while I work) and I dont recall a lot of other pistols doing this. But magically, these odd foreign objects just happen to find their way into the holsters with 320's in them. Weird. I'm just expressing my opinion about something that is happening live on camera. So tell me then, what is making their way into these holsters to make this happen, that is taking 100% of the onus off of Sig? Can you elaborate?
All the community is seeing, is just the 320 shooting cops over and over and over again. I know you dont believe me, but if you watched Youtube at the rate that I do, you'd see a TON of videos describe a LOT of LEOs suing Sig over this. But SOMEhow, it's ALLLLLLLLLLLLL of their faults and their faults only I guess. Ah well, you and Sig are right, and me and all of the officers and safariland is wrong. I apologize.
Ever since Sig started to make guns in the US they fucked things up. And US customers being stupid continued to support them. We make fun of democrats over the things they do but we’re no better. We just do different stupid things.
Maybe store it unloaded, but with striker “cocked”, and occasionally check for the striker firing. At least you won’t have a bullet impact within your safe.
Mine is stored as described and I’ve never found it “fired.”
even the mcx/mpx line? all mine have been solid but are not high round count yet either. guess i should shoot them a bit more…
have a cross as well thats been good as well.
Nope, the 320's dont go off without someone pulling the trigger. You're right. Everything I said was made up. I'm a shill for Glock. All those officers were indeed finger fucking the trigger well. Every single one of them. And alll the other company's pistols AD in their holsters as well.
The 516 is a great carbine too. The p365 pistol series has been very solid.
You sound vaxxed AND bi-polar.
Instead of just spewing all over the place and without paragraphs, go back to my post #113, click Reply, and then form a short reply to my points. I Know you can do it!
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Swiss SIG is/was up there near the pinnacle of mass produced firearms.
I've played with the new 210's. It's not the same level. Whatever they were doing from the 30's through the 70's over there was righteous.
The Swiss P210 is an amazing piece of machinery. It is as tight as a Brown & Sharpe dial caliper, shoots like a Bullseye pistol, 100% reliable, will outlast you 2x over.
I dunno what the fuck they were thinking when they redesigned it. The whole point of that gun was to maintain 2” at 50yd accuracy for 60,000 rounds. The new gun is a joke.
For reference, they are called Unintentional Discharges-involving negligence or accidental. As far as I'm concerned, it's either user or design negligence, design failures exposed by conditions. Now the negligence may not always be on the part of the "controller" of the firearm. it could be attributed the design, testing and also in conjunction with support gear, in certain cases here-the holster in which exposes poor design of the firearm.
In the end, related to Sig P320 series, some are totally on the operator, others will show the series has flaws that are exposed under certain conditions.
In my opinion, people are lazy, instead of learning to control a firearm during the trigger squeeze, they want an easy button, a light short trigger--on a duty/carry gun. Also, without digging deep, did Sig come up with a design as such to get around any patents or was it solely to have that trigger light and short. If you look a the intricate internal parts, two things come to mind, failure of said parts and if the US Govt. actually went through all of the test--this POS would not have made it.
I've been around Glock and other guns that would expose a ton of weakness. A shit ton of Glocks in various Safariland holsters--no guns ever "went off" in the holster, it always happened in the draw stroke or upon re holster. One can easily see the 320 series would have design failure in the holster.
My .02 anyhow, so when you fan boys get done putting your dress away after taking pictures of your 20 320 variants-have at it.
In the end, related to Sig P320 series, some are totally on the operator, others will show the series has flaws that are exposed under certain conditions.
In my opinion, people are lazy, instead of learning to control a firearm during the trigger squeeze, they want an easy button, a light short trigger--on a duty/carry gun. Also, without digging deep, did Sig come up with a design as such to get around any patents or was it solely to have that trigger light and short. If you look a the intricate internal parts, two things come to mind, failure of said parts and if the US Govt. actually went through all of the test--this POS would not have made it.
I've been around Glock and other guns that would expose a ton of weakness. A shit ton of Glocks in various Safariland holsters--no guns ever "went off" in the holster, it always happened in the draw stroke or upon re holster. One can easily see the 320 series would have design failure in the holster.
My .02 anyhow, so when you fan boys get done putting your dress away after taking pictures of your 20 320 variants-have at it.
I’m not going to disagree with anything you wrote, except to say that the 320 trigger pull is neither short, nor particularly light. While I’m not a “pistol guy,” of the pistols that I own, the 320 trigger is the worst.
I holstered my P320 today and didn't shoot myself.
After the first handful of reports landed in their legal inbox, Sig started a major push to look at all the conditions involved including holsters.
Since then, Sig has purchased thousands of dollars worth of mostly Safariland holsters to analyze. They have sectioned, dissassembled, measured and destroyed a shit ton of holsters trying to find a culprit. They have even X-rayed the holsters with the pistol in place looking for conflicts with the trigger.
They have gone to great lengths so far trying to pin the issue on the holster manufacturer and have come up empty.
I have heard that Safariland had basically done the same thing behind closed doors to see if they missed something during the holster design and to prepare for any finger pointing.
I have also heard that the exact holsters involved in each incident have not been disassembled or thoroughly examined because they are still part of the evidence in the court cases. I guess that makes sense.
6000 series ALS/SLS duty holsters are pretty closely molded to the actual gun profile without a lot of internal gaps or voids. The tactical holsters in the same series have larger voids and gaps internally around the gun but have raised guides molded in to keep the gun from moving in the holster. I don't think it would be very easy to have a foreign object in the holster and still be able to fully holster and lock the pistol into the ALS block.
I guess they could still come up with something at this point but with legal fees being billed by the hour and bad press making their brand hemorrhage dollars every day, I would think they would have announced a non-Sig culprit if there was one to be found or even suspected.
I should have qualified that with reference to "carry pistols", not match type tuned triggers which for that purpose is fine within the rulebook.
I can’t say all of them, but some of those Canik triggers rival some of the best triggers in the world.
This is the correct answer, even *IF* they are drop safe, there's so many other valid reasons to avoid Sig like the plague in 2024. They don't even wait years to revise a product, most of their recent products got major revisions the first year or two. The MPX was on Gen 2 before the first year was up, after that Sig stopped using Gen #'s because by now they'd be on about Gen 8. So many firing pin, feed ramp, extractor/barrel nut changes it's ridiculous. Even Sig's CS can't keep track of what gen parts you need half the time
Sig seems to really struggle to figure out how to get a gun to cycle properly recoil/gas etc. wise. $3000 MCX's with a 4 MOA standard of accuracy, that they reportedly test at 25yds and extrapolate........ridiculous.
Sig does some neat designs, but their execution is horrible, and it's not things that don't show up for thousands and thousands of rounds, it's out of the gate just oozes bad design. I will say usually their CS isn't bad, and they are pretty fast at shipping/replacing stuff, but I suspect they get a huge amount of practice
I have however ran into many times they refused to sell me parts, esp. for the MPX that I'd consider typical spare parts, ejectors, extractors etc. saying they don't sell them and if you break one you have to return the entire gun. Beyond that their parts prices are INSANE. $800 for a barrel (with a 4 MOA standard), $700 for a carrier/bolt assembly, $550 for an upper, $100 for a charging handle, $200 for a gas valve, etc. MCX/MPX have such a fast/violent bolt speed they eat triggers like fat kids eat cake. Gieselle tried for 3 years to make an MPX trigger, they finally caved and now give you 35/45/55% stronger recoil springs to try and keep their trigger together. MCX's forward assist housing is soft plastic, I see so many posts of these cracked/stripped etc.
365 had firing pin problems and spring rate problems out of the gate
P210 US version had problems breaking guide rods.
First Gen 320 X-five's the captured guide spring setup spring rate was so wrong that it didn't have enough spring to go into battery reliably, it had such a high rising rate it wouldn't run the slide far enough to eject/strip a new round. Everyone I knew running them bought 1911 sized guide rods and ran non-captured springs, fixed the problem immediately. The front sight height was so bad on the early versions that the rear sight would fly apart because you had to adjust it past it's limit to zero the gun.
Then there's Sig's love of using proprietary optics mounts.....
It goes on and on.
