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Stop all that prep, oh and seating tests are bullshit, love Hornady
- Thread starter Im2bent
- Start date
Can't see the video. But I tend to keep youtube on in the background at work.
I almost made a threat talking about this very thing. It seems the guys on those hornady podcasts think reloading should be for getting groups roughly about 1 moa and that's it. I laughed at almost everything they said. I am guessing this was supposed to be a link to that?
I almost made a threat talking about this very thing. It seems the guys on those hornady podcasts think reloading should be for getting groups roughly about 1 moa and that's it. I laughed at almost everything they said. I am guessing this was supposed to be a link to that?
Dealing with their “match grade” ammo and bullets has caused me to lose some faith in Hornady this year.
Yeah maybe instead of making video telling everyone how much they know, they should focus on getting their QC in line. Then they could try being honest with their customers when they change their loads.
I actually thought pretty highly of them until this year.
Godamit effing you tube. Basically one of them "super" prepped 35 rounds. Volume sorted same lot brass, weight sorted bullets, turned necks, deburred flash holes powder to 1 granule, you name it. Then grabbed 35 random same lot cases with no prep, 35 bullets not sorted and no diff in group sizes. Seating depth just pick a jump or go mag length and call it good. And so forth.
I’d like to see Hornady do some large volume accuracy testing of their brass vs Alpha, Lapua, Peterson, et al. Let’s establish their brass is consistent enough to resolve the minutiae, before we use it to evaluate techniques.
By far their largest profit comes from factory ammo. Why would they try to persuade the reloader that they can make better ammo. Yes they sell equipment and components, but it’s a small part of their market. If they convince people to reload, they will quickly determine that there’s better components and equipment out there than what Hornady offers.
Bottom line, they have no interest in saying better ammo can be made than factory ammo. Much less guiding you to do so.
Bottom line, they have no interest in saying better ammo can be made than factory ammo. Much less guiding you to do so.
The worst part about their podcast is listening to Seth act like he knows what he’s talking about. Bro just says random terms and prays they stick.
And yes you’re allowed to use small samples. The whole point of statistics is to account for the uncertainty in small samples.
And yes you’re allowed to use small samples. The whole point of statistics is to account for the uncertainty in small samples.
So Bias….. makes sense.
Somehow Americans always want to believe that a company’s first responsibility is to the customer.
Let’s be real. In reality, the first responsibility is to the business itself. An ethical company tries to do both.
From that viewpoint, bias and confirmation bias makes perfect sense.
I don't think Hornady is doing this to persuade reloaders to buy factory ammo.
They aren't that stupid.
It would be interesting to see this same experiment performed with all Capstone products, to see what, if any minutiae exists.
To your point, I've always had better results with Capstone products over Hornady. It takes very little effort to produce excellent results with Lapua brass and Berger bullets. I can't seem to replicate that success with Hornady components.
That said, I think the effects of many reloading steps are overstated. Even Applied Ballistics testing produces results very similar to what Hornady discussed in their podcasts.
Also, anyone can perform similar steps to see for themselves what performance benefits (if any) are provided by additional reloading steps.
I bet if more people tested this kind of stuff themselves, they would start to really question the necessity of some reloading steps.
To much myth and lore in reloading.
I bet if more people tested this kind of stuff themselves, they would start to really question the necessity of some reloading steps.
To much myth and lore in reloading.
Just out of curiosity what is your reloading process? I agree with a lot if not most of the things you and a few others say here and in other threads but I also disagree with a few things.
Lets say you just spun on a new barrel do you shoot X amount of rounds before load development? Or start load development from round 1?
Do you play with charge weight or just throw and go?
Do you play with seating depth once you find a charge weight?
Do you believe you can make a load shoot better by adjusting one or both of the above?
And I am genuinely interested and not trying to be a dick, I have used just about every load development method there is, I have also done just about every case and bullet prep there is but am always looking for a quicker and/or easier way to get to the same place, I personally do not like reloading like most for me its a necessary evil.
For reloading, my process has become fairly simple.
I start off with good components - like Berger Hybrids and Lapua brass, and use powders that are known produce good results in the specific cartridges I reload for, like H4350 for 6.5 cm and H4895 for 6BRA.
My reloading steps are as follows:
1. Tumble brass in rice
2. Anneal with AMP
3. FL size brass, bumping shoulder approx ~2 thou and applying 2-3 thou neck tension. I lube each case with Imperial sizing wax, and after sizing I wipe off excess lube by hand with a clean shop rag.
4. Trim, chamfer and deburr with Giraud trimmer
5. Prime with CPS primer, on the deepest setting
6. Charge on Autotrickler V2 w/V3 board and IP trickler. I aim to weigh to the kernel and get every charge weight within +/- 0.02 grains. (Much harder with large kernels like N570, in which you have to settle for a larger variance)
7. Seat bullets - I typically start 10-20 thou off the lands with Berger Hybrids, and just leave the seater in that setting throughout the life of the barrel. Chasing lands seems to be a waste of time, at least with Hybrids.
With a new barrel, the first 100-150 rounds is barrel break in. Near the end of that, as velocity starts to settle out, I do a ladder test to see what approximate charge weights get what velocity, and where pressure may be. I have velocity targets that I want to achieve with each cartridge - it's somewhat arbitrary, but I try to leave a bit of room below the pressure ceiling. I usually pick a charge weight that gives the approx. velocity I want, to the nearest 0.5 grain (i.e. 40.5 versus 40.3).
Right now these are the velocities that I am shooting:
- 6.5 Creedmoor with 140 Hybrids: 2830 fps
- 6BRA with 105 Hybrids: 2900 fps
- .300NM with 220 LRHT: 2930 fps
I don't do bullet depth seating tests, as through further exploration I've found them to be somewhat useless. At least when shooting with small sample sizes. Extensive testing with different charge weights over numerous days has also shown that specific charge weights don't perform any better when averaged out over numerous days and conditions. Yes, you don't want to be going too slow or too fast, but otherwise specific charge weights don't matter - at least with proven powders per cartridge.
Also, I should add that you should do what works for you.
I'm not the arbiter of truth on this subject (or any subject for that matter). I know enough about statistics and the scientific method to understand that reloaders are egregious offenders of not following the scientific methodology and don't understand testing methodologies. We typically rely solely on poor observational data with extremely limited data sets. From that, we make conclusions that we can't possibly make. Conclusions that aren't repeatable in further testing and analysis.
Another part of shooting is having confidence in your system, including your ammo. If additional steps makes you more confident in your ammo, then that alone makes it worth it to do those steps, even if the performance gains are only perceived. If neck turning on an AUTODOD makes you more confident in your ammo, then by all means, go for it. There's something to be said about the intangible benefit of having confidence in your system.
I'm not the arbiter of truth on this subject (or any subject for that matter). I know enough about statistics and the scientific method to understand that reloaders are egregious offenders of not following the scientific methodology and don't understand testing methodologies. We typically rely solely on poor observational data with extremely limited data sets. From that, we make conclusions that we can't possibly make. Conclusions that aren't repeatable in further testing and analysis.
Another part of shooting is having confidence in your system, including your ammo. If additional steps makes you more confident in your ammo, then that alone makes it worth it to do those steps, even if the performance gains are only perceived. If neck turning on an AUTODOD makes you more confident in your ammo, then by all means, go for it. There's something to be said about the intangible benefit of having confidence in your system.
Yup. And as I've said on many occasions, it comes down to and is really all about repeatability.
Yup. And as I've said on many occasions, it comes down to and is really all about repeatability.
And without proper testing methodology (which includes appropriate sample sizes and variable isolations and controls), reloaders can't make conclusions on how individual variables played a role in the outcome. We might be able to make very repeatable ammo, but determining which variable produced what specific result is much more ambiguous.
The good news is that if you use good components and equipment, and are consistent in your process, you will make good ammo. Typically, we make good ammo despite our processes, not because of it.
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I’m not suggesting that they are. I’m suggesting they’re trying to keep people who are buying their factory ammo from reloading by implying there’s nothing to gain.
I see what you are saying now.
The issue I have with that assertion is that Hornady also sells reloading gear. From components to dies and presses and everything in between. They likely have a larger reloading selection of reloading gear than any other brand.
I don't think they would cannibalize their own reloading market in order to just sell more factory ammo. I really don't.
Plus, Applied Ballistics own testing mirrors a lot of what the Hornady crew has found.
They do make a good point in that it is a good idea to try out different powders rather than to perform reloading contortion trying to get one combination to shoot.
I know is all the reloading gear I’ve bought could have bought me a few life times of factory ammo. I do not believe Hornady is trying to convert people away from reloading. There’s just too much money to be made. I do not think anyone from Hornady has ill intent. They’re pretty stand up guys for the perspectives we’ve been presented. I think Miles and Jayden are trying to sprinkle a little reality for some reloaders. We all have to admit, it’s a little exhausting listing off every single caveat and repeating “it depends.” All they’re doing is making content out of it which is marketing at its core. Brining a message to customers or potential adopters.
We are very close to the same I honestly thought you did a lot more the way you talk about reloading...I am not bragging or anything like that but I have shot out a lot of barrels...stopped counting at 33 probable 38-40 now....when I first started reloading 20+yrs ago I jumped on line and started reading and more so about how the BR guys did things.
As I read more and looking at different web site's it was over whelming to me how different PPLs thoughts were so I turned off the computer and went on a reloading walk about LOL for about 18mos and in that time shot out 2 300WM barrels and 2 260rem barrels and a 260AI barrel...I live 10mins from where I shoot and have pretty much unlimited distance to shoot.
In the beginning I was doing EVERY case and bullet prep there is and in about 3yrs I burnt myself out with all the shit I was doing and stopped shooting for a little over 4mos when I came back I decided to see how little prep work I could do and still build accurate and consistent ammo.
It was amazing to me how little...if any....difference the things I was doing before really mattered.
I only shoot Bergers and Sierras and normally run Lapua or Peterson, I just ordered my first 500 pieces of Alpha, CCI 450s 90% and FED 205M now and then, H4350 and Varget for powders
I tumble in buck wheat grouts if brass is muddy which don't happen much here normally roll them around in a towel
I anneal every 3-4 firings with a giraud/flame...faster for me and yes I've owned and AMP...2 as a matter of fact
FL size on a Dillon 750 and bump shoulders 2-4 thousandths...I use one shot then tumble in buck wheat grouts 10mins
Trim, chamfer and deburr on a Henderson
most times I prime on my Dillon but I do have a CPS
Charge on Autotrickler V4 if I am over or under 1 kernel I don't worry about it
I dump through a powder die and seat bullet's on my 750
I start with big jumps and do not chase the lands just add powder when needed
New barrel I run 100 rounds then shoot 1 round of progressively higher charge weights until I hit the velocity I am looking for then load and run a simple seating test...I do not shoot any big boomers any more I stick to the small 6's because they are stupid simple, accurate and consistent.
I guess the one thing I disagree with is that you need to shoot these huge samples to know if your gun is going to shoot or not...I shoot 20 rounds over the chrony after I find a load and if I am 25FPS or less I am done. I chrony again about 1000 round in or if theres an issue....I am by no means a pro shooter but I have shot enough to know if my load/gun is going to shoot with a small sample and I know if there is an issue and if its me, my gun or the load.
And don't take any of my comments the wrong way I think the info you and several of the other guys that post in these loading threads is great but like you say we all need to do what works for us and makes us feel all warm and fuzzy.
I like to shoot. I hate reloading. My process was never intricate and doubt it ever will be. You couldn't burn out a 308 barrel with what I have in rrlaodi g equipment. I have only shot out 6 barrels, but they include a 223 and 308. For holding moa verticals and hitting steel from field positions. You don't need that great of ammo.
I anneal maybe every three.
I trim chamfer and deburr sometimes. Maybe every 5. Sometimes brass goes its entire life only needing trimmed once but I will touch up the chamfer sometimes. Especially semi autos.
FL size. I have dies from pretty much everyone cheap. I load quite a few diffrent cartridges.
Tumbel in corn cob
Hand prime/ rcbs handprime.
Either charge master or rcbs volume thrower for ball powder.
Seat bullets.
Load development. OCW. Sometimes. ( I have picked a charge within the book and just went with it. 6 creed h4350 easy button) Followed by loading the rest of that 50 peices of brass then shooting groups with my chosen charge. 2nd firing 50 rounds of chosen charge. 100y groups and 600 yard groups.
I don't get to shoot like I used to after CO shut down rec shooting on SWA. I lost my spot I shot 600+ for the previous 10 years. I can still go there and shoot prairie dogs but can't shoot paper there anymore.
My dad would be doing bench rest prep for an AK. LOL. Or a mini 14 in reality. The reality was though. As bad as that thing shot. We stoned tons of coyotes with it. Lost all the brass though. Some of them might still be in orbit.
Make ammo for for your use. When your ammo starts to hold you back, make it better. At that point dont be suprised if you are doing stuff they just said not to worry about. If it's all crap. Change powder change bullet.
I anneal maybe every three.
I trim chamfer and deburr sometimes. Maybe every 5. Sometimes brass goes its entire life only needing trimmed once but I will touch up the chamfer sometimes. Especially semi autos.
FL size. I have dies from pretty much everyone cheap. I load quite a few diffrent cartridges.
Tumbel in corn cob
Hand prime/ rcbs handprime.
Either charge master or rcbs volume thrower for ball powder.
Seat bullets.
Load development. OCW. Sometimes. ( I have picked a charge within the book and just went with it. 6 creed h4350 easy button) Followed by loading the rest of that 50 peices of brass then shooting groups with my chosen charge. 2nd firing 50 rounds of chosen charge. 100y groups and 600 yard groups.
I don't get to shoot like I used to after CO shut down rec shooting on SWA. I lost my spot I shot 600+ for the previous 10 years. I can still go there and shoot prairie dogs but can't shoot paper there anymore.
My dad would be doing bench rest prep for an AK. LOL. Or a mini 14 in reality. The reality was though. As bad as that thing shot. We stoned tons of coyotes with it. Lost all the brass though. Some of them might still be in orbit.
Make ammo for for your use. When your ammo starts to hold you back, make it better. At that point dont be suprised if you are doing stuff they just said not to worry about. If it's all crap. Change powder change bullet.
Remember, their "match" grade ammo is massed produced to fit in lots of different chambers and be lawyer safe. Reloading brings out the best of a rifle/handgun as all have their variances in barrels, chambers, etc. are adjusted and accounted for.
I don’t hate it but I sure would like to do less of it and shoot more.
1) deprime
2) dry tumble walnut media treated 4-5 hrs
3) anneal every 3d firing
4) size w/ bushing die
5) mandrel
6) dry tumble 1 hr
7) Trim, when I feel the need
8) Chamfer neck in and out, brush pockets
9) prime w/ 20th century hand primer
10) throw charges w/ Chargemaster supreme
11) seat bullets
That is pretty much it.
Yes I am aware of that. However recently (according to them, after folks bitched) they had some powder sourcing issues and changed the loads.
This resulted in *much* lower fps numbers than on the box and what people were seeing normally from previous lots. They did this with no change on the box. So this wasn’t just a case of people taking the boxes numbers for granted. This was a case of people who have shot this ammo and suddenly were saying “what the heck it’s 100-150 FPS lower all of a sudden”???
They finally came clean. They should’ve just been upfront about it.
I was breaking in a new rifle that was getting significantly less FPS than my buddy’s new gun from the same manufacturer with the 3 inch shorter barrel. I was getting 6.5 cm speeds out of a 6.5 PRC. I thought my rifle had suddenly decided it was a leftist and was identifying as a 6.5 CM???
This caused me to call the manufacturer and say “what’s the problem with this barrel”???
A box from a different location with a different older lot number brought my FPS up to where it was expected to be …..mystery solved.
RE their components:
I am also seeing significant ES that I believe the weight variance in their bullets is causing. I’m going to try some weight sorting.
I like Hornady for the most part, but I do think it’s a little pompous of them when they do these podcast telling everybody what’s, what.
When most of the other manufactures were falling on their face and supply was drying up, Hornady managed to keep bullets flowing, and I was grateful for that. Also, the pricing is really good on their bullets. But I guess you get what you pay for. Availability is my biggest concern. I want shoot .
So certainly not all bad…..
I will say this. I had a 300prc built a few years ago strictly for hunting, Defiance hunter action with Proof carbon barrel , light weight for pack in hunts. Anyway, I got some Hornady 212gr ELDX factory ammo for it. It shot outstanding! As in stack them top of each other good, have to admit I was shocked. It shot so well that I decided to not even try to work up a hunting load for that rifle. I do believe that to be the exception rather than the rule.
If this isn't the thread of all "Roll Eyes" as we all do in the real world....
"In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory, but in practice, there is....
Like when I was told by a very self proclaimed internet commando fuckstick that since the bullet exits the barrel before anything else happens with the moving parts of a gun it doesn't matter...
"In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory, but in practice, there is....
Like when I was told by a very self proclaimed internet commando fuckstick that since the bullet exits the barrel before anything else happens with the moving parts of a gun it doesn't matter...
I don't truly hate it anymore. I truly hated when I trimmed every firing with one of those Lee finger torcher things and chamfered and deburred with their other.
I use wft and an rcbs prep center now. On top of that cutting out anneal, trim, chamfer, and debur every firing really made the task less tedious.
Shooting a lot more 6 arc, 6.5 Grendel and 20 practical with ball powders. I have just been throwing powders by volume and going to town. I like it better than the charge master whirring away but it no works so good with most extruded powders.
I am using a Frankford Arsenal platinum case prep which seems to serve me well. Upgrading the cutters is a must though.
Not our intent at all. You can definitely reload better than our factory ammo most of the time. It might very well be more than sufficient for your purposes to use factory ammo, but the control over the powder used and the powder charge especially is something that will always give leeway for reloads to outperform factory ammo.
The hefty bulk of what we've tested is a factory "varmint" profile barrel (rem varm, Ruger RPR, medium palma, etc.) through a 1.20" straigh cylinder. A mix of "rail gun" return fixture and fired from the shoulder.
In general the lighter the rifle and the thinner the barrel, the more variable the results. Recoil/fundamentals makes shooter-to-shooter changes much more dramatic, barrels get really hot much faster, etc... Most LR/Precision stuff is shot with a varmint/bull barrel so that's what we use in testing. If you take anything I've posted as gospel or without the context in which it's provided I can't help you. I think we've been clear from the beginning that it's not all-inclusive, but for the hefty majority of what we've seen/done it's been the same rodeo.
Unfortunately the rate at which I'm able to test stuff has also been hit pretty hard in the last year or two. I have a lot of great ideas for tests and whatnot but no time to set them up. It turns out people want bullets on the market more than they want me to tell them how they've worked for me
I haven't listened to the podcast... but I also don't think seating depth matters (what matters is them all ending up the same). Use a legit sample size and you'll see the same thing.
Guys can use small sample sizes to form opinions and make decisions if they want, but then they're just seeing what they want to see.
Guys can use small sample sizes to form opinions and make decisions if they want, but then they're just seeing what they want to see.
You mean the chamfer and debur cutters on em? What did you upgrade with? I have a giraud but if I'm not actually trimming I also use the FA prep station a lot
I just upgraded the cutter to a carbide and what a difference both in ease of use and dimensional consistency.
I went with a RCBS brush for the pockets.
I just started looking for alternatives for the chamfer cutters. I’ll let you know what I find.
I think the Frankford comes with a VLD cutter, but I could be mistaken. It’s pretty long and a steep angle. I’m looking for a carbide replacement.
1/2 MOA give or take is doable. Most of my PRS barrels are doing 0.5-0.7 MOA for 20-30 shot strings in an indoor accuracy tunnel. Slightly better out of the rail gun fixture. Donate a box once and shoot a 20 shot group at 100yd and you might be surprised how poorly your ".1's-.3's all day long" setup actually performs. A surprising number of people who think they have stellar setups are at or above that 1 MOA mark because the testing they do for developing a load is insufficient. I know that because I've pressed people to do it in a 200yd indoor tunnel.
Until you grasp the concept that the dispersion pattern your rifle produces (regardless of how good or bad it shoots) is a probability profile that is (if everything is put together correctly) a random radial event, then it will sound like I'm making excuses for poor performance. After you come to terms with the concept of probability density functions and apply some basic statistics to the process it will sound more like real life.
When you repeat the same load development methods everyone claims to find "nodes" with such that each variable change consists of 20-50 shots, the peaks and valleys and sinusoidal behavior of the results dramatically reduces-- to the point that when you take that good statistical data and run it through hit probability calculators you see basically negligible changes between the data sets.
The main points of the podcast were that when you increase powder charge in .2gr increments and adjust seating depth you see very minimal performance changes (repeated this test with multiple calibers/loads/bullets etc.. many times). The things that make big changes are bullets, barrels, and powder. I can control what I say, not what you hear.
Found this in another thread:
Post in thread 'Frankford Arsenal case trimmer upgrades'
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...l-case-trimmer-upgrades.7175356/post-11433128
Yeah it's pretty steep. I've looked around many times but never know if it would be better or not.
Hmmm?? Am not sure to what extent you're thinking that seating depth doesn't matter.
Seating depth effects pressure and by extension, it effects velocity. Variances in seating depth is going to result in corresponding variances in pressure. Does that matter? I suppose it depends.
Here's a University of Michigan study from 1965 where info about that is shown:
Yeah....because physics has changed light years since 1965. We've even landed on the Moon with men and shit since then.Hmm, one paper, from 1965... I guess it's settled then.
Don't let the truth get in the way of what you believe.
