Night Vision Safran TAD

Dogtown

Dogtown

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    • Jun 21, 2007
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    #1
    soldiersystems.net

    Thermal Augmentation Device Update: Available for Preorder! | Soldier Systems Daily

    Redlands, California— TNVC and Safran Defense & Space, Inc. (Safran DSI), formerly Safran Optics 1, are excited to announce the release of the Thermal A ...
    soldiersystems.net

    Looks like units will be available by the end of August (which probably means Sept/Oct). What's interesting to me is that this doesn't appear to just be a stripped down E-COTI. Instead, it's got a slightly higher resolution 10 micron core that only operates in Full Thermal / Outline modes (no more Patrol).
     
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    #4
    I heard a rumor the "AI" was not installed due to "The Army didn't pay for it". Not even sure what that means.
    But if that's true then maybe the Army didn't pay for patrol mode either !!?? :ROFLMAO: :eek: :eek:

    As to improved resolution ... there might be multiple definitions. In general - more pixels = more resolution, BUTT, some people compare the pixels versus the area in the FOV (at a nominal distance) to generate a "pixel per square yard" sort of metric. And based on that idea, the chinese ecoti (IRAY) I have doubles the FOV (4x the area) ... so I think the "resolution" based on pixels per square yard is unchanged from the 320. But, there are 4 times as many pixels and that does help me see the cows in 3D ... i.e. some shading visible inside 150ish yds, whereas with 320 safran coti, I see 2D only (no shading).
    Strangely, I had a hard time getting used to the thermal overlay covering the whole 14 image. And I didn't expect to have a hard time. I was just so used to being able to see both the NV image and the thermal image separately with the 320 coti. Helped differentiate rocks from nada rocks and such.
     
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    #5
    In this case, the advertisement says the FOV is unchanged from ECOTI at 30 degrees so any extra resolution should actually be extra resolution.

    I don’t expect slight improvements in resolution to be super beneficial but it’s hard to imagine it being a bad thing.
     
    #6
    While I got used to the FOV and was impressed by the image on such a tiny unit, it was a challenge to get the E-COTI image restricted to warm outliers in the environment. The whole strength of Patrol mode is that your NV image does the heavy lifting, and the thermal overlay is only showing the warmest objects within your FOV. But practically I found it would show me far too much range of temperature, leading to much of the FOV awash in thermal noise. Playing with the Gain and Offset to try to set a temperature floor value was tricky and often unsuccessful on my end. In the end, it seemed like the unit worked best in the middle of the night when the environment had reached a temperature equilibrium, making the terrain disappear and animals pop.

    No doubt, it’s still a very powerful add on capability, but I personally am back to holding out for something new that will have better control over the temperature range.
     
    #8
    ... the advertisement says the FOV is unchanged from ECOTI at 30 degrees so any extra resolution should actually be extra resolution ..
    Click to expand...
    Ah, but I was comparing to the 320 coti which is 20 FOV.
     
    #9
    ... While I got used to the FOV and was impressed by the image on such a tiny unit, it was a challenge to get the E-COTI image restricted to warm outliers in the environment. The whole strength of Patrol mode is that your NV image does the heavy lifting, and the thermal overlay is only showing the warmest objects within your FOV. But practically I found it would show me far too much range of temperature, leading to much of the FOV awash in thermal noise. Playing with the Gain and Offset to try to set a temperature floor value was tricky and often unsuccessful on my end. In the end, it seemed like the unit worked best in the middle of the night when the environment had reached a temperature equilibrium, making the terrain disappear and animals pop.
    Click to expand...

    Interesting, I've killed more than 100, but less than 200 critters with coti 320 and taken it out 100s more times and my brain never encountered this issue. I was in KS then, Flint Hills area so some woods, creeks and hills, but lots of open hilly pastures.
    I used across all the seasons, summer and winter up to 100F and down to -27F.

    Are you in NV ? I would think things would be even better there ! Less water in the air on average.

    ==

    But I have heard one more person describe similar symptoms to what you're describing so it must be a thing !
     
    #12
    wigwamitus said:
    Are you in NV ? I would think things would be even better there ! Less water in the air on average.
    Click to expand...
    Northern CA and NV - so dry, yes. But for example, an hour after dusk I can move through an area where I get warm vegetation and rocks that make for a busy image with critters showing up just a tad brighter. Tweaking the Gain and Offset can kind of make the background stuff start to fade, but it also makes the critters fade. What I want is basically thermal floor/ceiling values so that I can intuitively exclude mildly warm terrain features while making sure clearly warm critters and people show-up fairly brightly.
     
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    #13
    Well if the rocks and critters are all 100F ish ... then separating them might actually be tough ! Its usually not that hot in KS (or MO where I am now). But the rocks ought to cool off fast after the sun goes down - if the air does ! So, yeah, on hot summer days you might have to wait a couple of hours.
     
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    #14
    I'm not even talking summer - I ran into this problem just last April where it was pretty temperate all day, yet all of the brush that had been in 70 degree overcast was filling my FOV with lower glowing patches and my buddy 20m away was bright. So I just got the impression that it was difficult to clamp the range of thermal values being projected, and the device got used less and less. I may try one of these TADs at some point, but don't have a lot of faith in it being any different given the lineage. My instinct says "wait until something new shows up" in the coming years.
     
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    #15
    With a 320 COTI I’ve had conditions where it was useless and also conditions where I noticed people who I never would have noticed without it (turned off COTI and the person wasn’t visible at all with 2900 FOM filmless tubes).

    Much of the West has a real rock problem in terms of false positives. Many are large boulders with just a small amount visible above ground. These can hold enough heat to be almost indistinguishable from live animals until about 4am. I’ve learned to avoid certain areas when it’s been hot/sunny since the thermal will provide little advantage.
     
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    #16
    Augee has confirmed to me more than once that the TAD has a new "High Contrast" mode which is identical to Patrol Mode. Everything I've read and heard indicates that the TAD is basically just a SWaP-improved ECOTI without ATAK. I pre-ordered last October so I should be receiving my unit in the first wave later this month. I will report back.
     
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    #18
    Alright I have mine in hand and it definitely does have a "high contrast" mode. I've only tested it on my wife indoors so I'm not sure it will exactly duplicate patrol mode but it seems at least roughly similar. The Quick Start diagram even refers to it (probably accidentally) as Patrol Mode. On Outline mode and Full Thermal there's a line through the image as if maybe there's an issue with a row of pixels somewhere. I haven't done a manual NUC yet but I will try that to see if it resolves when I test it tonight. So far it seems to do what it claims to do. It is impressively small, also - much smaller than a Jerry C5 and somewhat smaller than an ECOTI.

    Edit: Figured out how to manually NUC and it seems to have fixed the weird image line. Will try it out more tonight.
     
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    #19
    OK I just ran it for an hour or so. Thoughts in no particular order:

    1. I never owned an ECOTI, just played with some for short periods in the past. To me it seems that the TAD has significantly fewer artifacts in Outline mode. Perhaps they have improved the software/AI that decides what should be displayed to the user? Or perhaps my neighborhood is particularly outline-friendly. In either case I found outline mode quite usable.

    2. High Contrast mode is functionally the same as Patrol Mode, I think. Perhaps the processing is different but the result was fairly similar. I think this will still be a popular mode.

    3. In brightly-lit areas the TAD struggled to highlight heat sources brightly enough to make them really stand out through the NVGs. It has 50 brightness levels; I was running 40-50 in areas with lots of streetlights in order to highlight people sufficiently. The manual says 12-24 is ideal. In dark areas I could run it that low easily.

    4. If you last used it in a dark area with the brightness turned low, and you turn it on in a bright area, you may have a hard time knowing the device is even on. I was scratching my head why it wouldn't turn on and even swapped batteries before I realized that the brightness was so low the street lights were washing out the display. It would have been cool if the device had a very low "I'm on" LED like LAMs often do.

    5. Startup is very quick. 5-second button press to turn it on and then it is almost instantly active.

    6. It malfunctioned once and began displaying a rapidly scrolling display (like an old TV flickering, where the display is almost rapidly scanning, like a rolling shutter type of appearance). I could not turn it off with the power button and had to loosen the battery cap to shut it off. This was a one-time thing that happened while I was adjusting brightness. If it happens repeatedly it may be a problem but so far it has only been the once. Hopefully it won't recur.

    7. Augee said it would be able to manually calibrate the image to align with the NVGs but this isn't entirely true. It has 9 factory presets for engagement distances and you can choose one but it doesn't appear to have any way for a person to manually adjust. This would be nice to have to make it perfect for your typical use and there are some big gaps in the presets (ie it jumps down from 300m straight to 24m with nothing in between). IDK if this is the same as the ECOTI.

    8. The new sensor and resolution bump may actually be palpable. Outlines look nice and smooth and close-up thermal signatures are very sharp. Not sure what NETD is on the new FPA.
     
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    #21
    I mean in many ways that's good, right? I'm glad Safran is willing to sell a smaller, lighter, 10um-upgraded ECOTI to civilians for like 40% off by stripping out the ATAK that 99% of people won't use. I'd much rather have this than a Jerry-C5, and my cervical spine agrees. I'm interested to hear whether you think outline mode is better on the TAD than your old ECOTI.
     
    #23
    So wait, I've never used an ecoti either. Have 2 x 320 cotis and 1 c5e.

    My 2 x320 have a threshold setting that triggers a super bright image.
    So I am rolling along on 4 wheeler looking at a well lit area and image is nornal, but I look into a dark area and the coti lights up and goes triple bright.

    There are menu settings for both the brightness settings and the kickover setting.
    I'm sure I'm not using the right terms, but thats how my cotis have always worked.
    Are you guys saying neither ecoti or tad will do this ?
    I've often thought the cotis are the most complex thermals I've ever owned in terms of menu settings.
     
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    #24
    That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. If you’re in a dark area, you don’t need the thermal onlay to be very bright at all, it will be highly visible even at a fairly low brightness setting.

    The TAD does have an automatic brightness setting because it has an ambient light sensor built-in. You can turn it on or off, but not change the threshold settings. I suspect Safran would say they did away with those menu settings because they improved the software and the device’s ability to do it automatically.
     
    #25
    With the E-COTI I found the Autogain to be one of the main sources of thermal noise. You look one direction where there’s an obvious warm feature, then look away where this isn’t and it tries to crank up any warmish values. If you turn that off, then going into the Adv Settings > Image and adjust the Max Gain and Offset, you can sort of control the threshold for what it picks up. The many presets for these values like Jungle, Urban, Rain, Snow, etc seemed kind of useless though in the differing environments I ran it.
     
    #26
    Yeah the first time I was out with a coti rolling on a 4 wheeler - I entered a dark area and everything lit up - and I almost crashed cause I didn't know what was happening ! Serves me right for not experimenting on foot more first !

    I wasn't praising the feature, just pointing out it existed in 320 coti and seemed like you were saying didn't exist in TAD (and Dog sayin it didn't exist in ecoti). But sounds like it does in ecoti, and sort of in tad.

    Thx for clarifying !
     
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    #29
    CoryT said:
    Can I presume it has the same battery cap as the COTI/E-COTI, which would mean my USB battery cap system will work without changes?
    Click to expand...

    Unfortunately they are not the same. Possibly the same threads but very different caps. See photo.

    IMG_7808.jpeg
     
    #39
    Conqueror said:
    Yes, I’ve seen the Cold Harbour and other analyses. It’s not a lens flare and it is present at multiple projector distances from the lens, we have been troubleshooting.
    Click to expand...
    When you move it further is it longer, shorter if closer, indicating possibly a projector issue?
     
    #44
    I sold the E-COTI a while back because it wasn’t really as useful as I had hoped. This was a weird impulse buy, but I should be able to identify any improvements. The unit itself is nearly identical, but the menus and features have been simplified. I’m most curious about the new High Contrast mode replacing Patrol Mode. With the E-COTI I had a lot of thermal noise from the environment that was very difficult to filter out. It looks like the TAD just has the Gain presets and no separate Gain/Offset controls, so that may be an issue. Then again, the sensor is slightly improved and the imaging software is new, so I’m crossing my fingers that High Contrast is better at isolating temperature ranges than the E-COTI.
     
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    #46
    Ok, initial impressions from a dusk hike.
    • Nearly identical to E-COTI in many areas
    • Image processing feels a bit faster as the thermal exposure adjusts
    • Didn’t notice any major lag like the old 29a
    • Menu is still a bit awkward to use, but is easier because it’s simplified
    • I miss having the retention cable for peace of mind
    These hot summer sunset nights aren’t ideal, so will try more closer to dawn when there’s less residual heat to busy things up. Still lots of thermal noise in the environment; presets tweaked this ever so slightly. Dirt trail lit up fairly uniformly along with most foliage. A hare darted across my path and was clearly visible under NV as well, but the TAD really does its thing when that guy tried to hide in the brush. Could even see his faint prints on the ground.

    Like the E-COTI, I just wish you could easily set a thermal floor: “Ignore any values below this value K”. Obviously more testing to do, but it appears to be a simplified E-COTI without ATAK and other MIL features. Compass is still there. Full Thermal mode is still kind of meh, but High Contrast feels like a better Patrol Mode. Outline mode is improved and quite useable.

    Overall, a good deal niche product.
     
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    #47
    Alright, I have messed with it. I went out around 3am to do so. Mode and setup matters a lot. I found that "arctic" and "auto brightness" "anti-lag ON" and "White hot" "outline" was the winning combo. Very very little interference from other things, and it lit up very well everything I saw, including flying bats, etc.

    Like Dogtown, I found full thermal to be "meh". High Contrast was okay, but outline was where it was at for me. Detect with TAD, engage with NV/MFAL.

    I run it on the left pod as I can roll the right pod up to get on scope and still have thermal/NV, as well as passive aiming not being a threat to bumping the projector arm on my NX8. It conveniently tethers to the ARNVG pod.

    1723718396126.png


    I managed to murder a possum that was trying to kill one of my baby chickens using this setup and a suppressed .22 pistol. Initially I was inside when I heard my dog after it, and I ran out ASAP with my m4 and a light on it, not knowing what was happening or what was the cause (Coyote, bear, who knows?) I looked under white light for 5 minutes or so and couldn't see the problem, although I found a chick with a minor wound that had flown from where it was roosting.

    I went back out with my ARNVG's and TAD and immediately the piece of shit was visible in a nearby tree. I lit it up with a .22 pistol, suppressed.

    All in all, I don't want to focus on the fact that I spent $20K to kill a possum, I'd like to focus on how well this thing works!

    1723717602211.png

    1723717626502.png

    1723717663583.png


    Gratuitious pic of my dog with one of his favorite hens. They are both around 6-7 years old and he has protected her from coyotes, hawks, raccoons, and possums. He's an awesome goodboy, and helped me shoot a coyote this last weekend that was after the hens. Shameless plug for him!
    1723717762267.png
     
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    #48
    JWG said:
    Alright, I have messed with it. I went out around 3am to do so. Mode and setup matters a lot. I found that "arctic" and "auto brightness" "anti-lag ON" and "White hot" "outline" was the winning combo. Very very little interference from other things, and it lit up very well everything I saw, including flying bats, etc.
    Click to expand...

    Great feedback from you and @Dogtown . I wonder if the ideal mode changes based on environmental conditions. How's the humidity where you live?
     
    #49
    I'm in dry northern CA, and toggling between different modes didn't make a huge difference. All it's doing internally is tweaking the Gain and Offset values (which are exposed in the E-COTI, but not the TAD). I agree that "Arctic" strangely gave me reduced thermal noise on a warm dry CA night, but again, the difference was minor. I should point out that toggling presets in High Contrast mode made less of a difference than in Outline mode. The latter is really improved in the TAD.

    All of that unwanted clutter is really the biggest crux with these COTI-style fusion systems. The thermal sensors are quite small on these devices and they work within the 8-12 micrometer spectrum, but I don't think that's sensitive enough to isolate the extremes of that spectrum. So with I^2 NV you see an image that's basically a monochrome version of what you're used to seeing, with shadows and highlights. Add the COTI-style thermal and now you see a range of heat as well, but it's a range. Within that range will be a lot of things in the environment, which creates clutter that complicates that I^2 NV image and can give you a lot of false positives.

    The Auto Brightness plays a part too, because it works like a thermal "exposure." For example, if I stop and stare into a patch of trees, that thermal clutter may settle a bit and anything warm within will light up. But then, if I scan upwards the sky becomes the coldest object in the sensor's FOV, so the Auto Brightness adjusts by lighting up the trees because they're warmer than the sky. I need to experiment more with Auto Brightness disabled, but previous experience doing this with the E-COTI didn't help the situation.

    Either way, it's still a really powerful combination and the TAD is clearly a more economical option for us no-longer-MIL guys. My initial hunch that "great concept, but needs more technological evolution" may still be valid.
     
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    #50
    I'm ordering mine tomorrow, so I'll be sure to play with the settings before fielding it. Definitely staying tuned to this thread to see the results of your settings experimentation. Here's hoping I can find a setting that works reasonably well on the forever-humid east coast.

    If I can't cut down on the noise in the image, I'm sure I'll at least be able to more quickly ID mammalian heat sources in my I^2 FOV. Not perfect, but significantly cheaper than a set of ENVG-Bs and better than no thermal capability at all.
     
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